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View Full Version : 4E: Equivalent to shiftweave?



Grynning
2009-10-24, 01:34 PM
In 3.5 Eberron there was a type of clothing you could buy that would shift into different outfits, called shiftweave. It was amazingly useful for my changeling character, and now that I'm playing a changeling in 4th, I want it, but I haven't been able to find anything like it in any of the books. Of course, it's possible that I've missed it, so if that's the case please tell me where it can be found.

If there isn't anything like it, about what level would you value a set of clothes that can change into other outfits? Would it maybe scale, so a lvl 1 or 2 version would have 2 outfits, level six 3 outfits, etc? It's hard to peg value for purely non-combat items in 4th for me.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-24, 01:39 PM
I thought the Minor Shape Change ability of the 4E Changeling and Doppelganger did that automatically?

Grynning
2009-10-24, 01:52 PM
I thought the Minor Shape Change ability of the 4E Changeling and Doppelganger did that automatically?

Nope. It includes the line "your clothing, armor, and possessions do not change."

Reluctance
2009-10-24, 01:57 PM
The changeling ability specifically does not affect your gear. It needs to be an item.

Clothing that just changed its own appearance should be a level one flavor item, level two tops. That's assuming it didn't change your gear or your own appearance, mind.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-10-24, 02:17 PM
Imposter's Armor. Level 6, IIRC. Heavy armor that can be made to look like a set of clothing.

Mando Knight
2009-10-24, 03:34 PM
There's also the good ol' Hat of Disguise...

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-24, 03:37 PM
Or you could just, you know. Dress Yourself. Stick a load of costumes in a handy haversack or even just your own bag, and use the limitation as a roleplaying hook rather than worrying about it?

Grynning
2009-10-24, 04:06 PM
Or you could just, you know. Dress Yourself. Stick a load of costumes in a handy haversack or even just your own bag, and use the limitation as a roleplaying hook rather than worrying about it?

Well, what I'm doing right now is using a reversible cloak and robe and some accessories for quick changes, and I already have a large stash of stolen clothes (she's a psion and a consummate con artist, so she infiltrates the nobility a lot and takes what she wants). The great thing about shiftweave was it could have some pre-programmed outfits (like a city guard uniform) and change pretty much instantaneously, even in combat, so it was really good for on-the-fly disguises. It was great for ninja-type tactics where you're being chased and round a corner and then all of a sudden, you're an old woman, or a nobleman, or whatever, with an outfit to match.

ashmanonar
2009-10-24, 04:12 PM
Well, what I'm doing right now is using a reversible cloak and robe and some accessories for quick changes, and I already have a large stash of stolen clothes (she's a psion and a consummate con artist, so she infiltrates the nobility a lot and takes what she wants). The great thing about shiftweave was it could have some pre-programmed outfits (like a city guard uniform) and change pretty much instantaneously, even in combat, so it was really good for on-the-fly disguises. It was great for ninja-type tactics where you're being chased and round a corner and then all of a sudden, you're an old woman, or a nobleman, or whatever, with an outfit to match.

Don't you think that might have been...well, why they didn't include it in 4th ed? Because it represents an incredible amount of power that shouldn't be that easy to attain? (If you wanted to have an item that did this as a Daily power, or something, I wouldn't complain, as it represents a cost that you must pay for that ability.)

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-24, 04:18 PM
As I said to my own changeling player, if you really need to quickchange, there's imposters armour.

For everything else, I'd recommend simply keeping your clothing generic as possible and pimping out your bluff score (Which is already going to be pretty decent simply via your changeling schtick) for disguise rolls.

Remember, if you DID manage to talk your DM into giving you a clothing version of Imposters armour, it would still take up your armour item slot anyway.

Hat of disguise replecates a lot of a changelings stuff. On the other hand, it does clothing too, but can't do touch etc. So, if you are changed, AND hat-disguised, you'd look and feel like an old woman, and as long as your clothes are close enough in sound etc (ie, if you are wearing cloth no problem, but full plate would be a give-away) then you're away.

It is level 10, though.

Grynning
2009-10-24, 06:12 PM
Don't you think that might have been...well, why they didn't include it in 4th ed? Because it represents an incredible amount of power that shouldn't be that easy to attain? (If you wanted to have an item that did this as a Daily power, or something, I wouldn't complain, as it represents a cost that you must pay for that ability.)

Are you saying a suit of clothes is overpowered? It's not a combat item, it doesn't have any mechanical effect, it's just a roleplaying thing to help make disguise checks more believable. Technically, a character doesn't need any clothing at all to make a disguise check, especially if you're a changeling. I can be naked if I want and be "disguised" with the proper Bluff check. A good DM will impose penalties for trying to say, pretend you're an official without the proper outfit, of course, which is when this would be handy, but the an item that basically just lets you change clothes is hardly breaking the game.


Remember, if you DID manage to talk your DM into giving you a clothing version of Imposters armour, it would still take up your armour item slot anyway.

No, it wouldn't. Clothing (like the "fine clothing" in the PHB) has no "slot." It would be a wondrous item. Wearing the armor over it would obviously hurt the disguise, but you take it off or use summoned armor. Yes, "cloth" type armor can be represented as clothing, but I seriously doubt you're trying to say that anyone who doesn't wear cloth armor is naked besides their metal or leather plates.

CarpeGuitarrem
2009-10-24, 06:58 PM
Are you saying a suit of clothes is overpowered? It's not a combat item, it doesn't have any mechanical effect, it's just a roleplaying thing to help make disguise checks more believable. Technically, a character doesn't need any clothing at all to make a disguise check, especially if you're a changeling. I can be naked if I want and be "disguised" with the proper Bluff check. A good DM will impose penalties for trying to say, pretend you're an official without the proper outfit, of course, which is when this would be handy, but the an item that basically just lets you change clothes is hardly breaking the game.
It's more powerful than you realize. It's an item that lets you change clothes as a minor action, and into whatever simple bit of clothing, really, you want it to change into.

Power level? Just think of all the possible applications. Having the correct outfit is hugely beneficial in terms of disguise. If you're trying to blend in with an organization, you need to match whatever racial/ethnic group comprises the organization (i.e. an organization of elves and eladrin, you have to look like one of those), you need to match the outfit of the organization, and you need to know enough about the organization to bluff your way through. If you have all three of those, that should be close to an automatic success.

Changelings have the ethnic appearance down. Add in the correct outfit, and you've almost got the Big 3 parts of disguise down. That's pretty darn powerful right there, considering the devastating effects you can wreak with infiltration. It's not just about blending in to escape. It's about blending in to cause damage.

Also keep in mind that some of those outfits may be incredibly rare to get ahold of, so that bumps the power level up even more.

I'm personally in favor of the generic clothing + Bluff check idea.


No, it wouldn't. Clothing (like the "fine clothing" in the PHB) has no "slot." It would be a wondrous item. Wearing the armor over it would obviously hurt the disguise, but you take it off or use summoned armor. Yes, "cloth" type armor can be represented as clothing, but I seriously doubt you're trying to say that anyone who doesn't wear cloth armor is naked besides their metal or leather plates.
Clothing is cloth armor, but it's generally nonmagical. Only magical cloth armor takes up the armor slot. Mundane cloth armor does not. Mundane cloth armor may be worn in conjunction with other armors, because it provides no armor bonus. Besides, why would you wear this "wondrous item" and use summoned armor, when you could just use Imposter's Armor, and morph the armor into real armor when needed?

Kylarra
2009-10-24, 07:11 PM
Besides, why would you wear this "wondrous item" and use summoned armor, when you could just use Imposter's Armor, and morph the armor into real armor when needed?That's actually easily answered, imposter's armor is heavy only and summoned is any armor.

Grynning
2009-10-24, 07:18 PM
It's more powerful than you realize. It's an item that lets you change clothes as a minor action, and into whatever simple bit of clothing, really, you want it to change into.

Power level? Just think of all the possible applications. Having the correct outfit is hugely beneficial in terms of disguise. If you're trying to blend in with an organization, you need to match whatever racial/ethnic group comprises the organization (i.e. an organization of elves and eladrin, you have to look like one of those), you need to match the outfit of the organization, and you need to know enough about the organization to bluff your way through. If you have all three of those, that should be close to an automatic success.

Changelings have the ethnic appearance down. Add in the correct outfit, and you've almost got the Big 3 parts of disguise down. That's pretty darn powerful right there, considering the devastating effects you can wreak with infiltration. It's not just about blending in to escape. It's about blending in to cause damage.

Also keep in mind that some of those outfits may be incredibly rare to get ahold of, so that bumps the power level up even more.

I'm personally in favor of the generic clothing + Bluff check idea.
...

Well, first of all, it doesn't actually exist, so there's no "minor action" component to discuss. Secondly, as discussed before, Eberron Shiftweave had a set number of outfits "programmed" into it, you couldn't just turn it into whatever you wanted. That's all I'm really looking for, just a couple of stock disguises to always have ready.

And again, while from a simulationist standpoint, the item sounds very potent, mechanically it technically does nothing in 4th edition. It doesn't add to any skill check, it doesn't help you do anything in combat, it's an RP item. And it completely makes sense that it would exist in a D&D world. Especially Eberron, one of the key points of the setting is that magic is integrated into everyday life and applied in a practical manner.

Seriously, people are ready to accept that magic is used to make weapons that are permanently on fire, items that let you teleport, fly, walk on water, heal wounds, and raise the freaking dead, but an item that let's you change your clothes quickly is somehow OP?

Edit: BTW, if anyone's interested, this is what I think would be an appropriate homebrew version of what I'm talking about:

Shiftweave Outfit
Wondrous Item
Level 5
This item appears to be an outfit of average quality, of a style chosen when the item is created. Upon command, it can transform into another, distinct outfit, also chosen when the item is created.

Power:
Encounter, Minor
The Shiftweave assumes its alternate appearance.

Paragon (lvl 15)
As heroic tier, but the clothing can be of fine quality, and has 4 distinct outfits

Epic (lvl 25)
The clothing can be of any quality, even extremely rich and expensive clothes, and has 6 distinct outfits.

Blue Warlock
2009-10-24, 07:19 PM
It's more powerful than you realize. It's an item that lets you change clothes as a minor action, and into whatever simple bit of clothing, really, you want it to change into.

Power level? Just think of all the possible applications. Having the correct outfit is hugely beneficial in terms of disguise.

Sorry, but you are kinda wrong here, did you actually check out the 3.5 item?. Shiftweave only allows for five different outfits that are "preprogrammed" into it. You can't make up anything on the fly. Its useful, mainly for in combat changing or on the run changing, but it doesn't provide the kind of versatility you are thinking of.

Reluctance
2009-10-24, 07:53 PM
1> You're grossly overestimating the utility of being able to change clothes quickly. 99.9+ % of the time, it's just a bit of added flavor for a character. The one time you really need to have a specific uniform, that just means that you get a free one while the rest of the party just has to ambush mooks and steal their outfits.

2> Grynning's example is way too high level. If it's just a few preprogrammed outfits, there should be no paragon or epic versions. Hat of Disguise, a tenth level item, allows you at-will changes of form. Imposter's Armor, a sixth level item, can already turn into any set of clothes you want it to be and should set the absolute maximum level for "anything you want" shiftweave. Limited function shiftweave, I don't know if I'd even put it at 500 gold.

Since I don't have the Eberron book, how much does shiftweave cost in that? Comparing that to expected WBL's should be an easy first step in pricing this for 4e.

Grynning
2009-10-24, 07:58 PM
Sadly I no longer have a 3.5 Eberron book, it belonged to my roommate who moved out of state a while ago.

I didn't realize Imposter's armor could be any clothing you want, I thought it was just one outfit. Why on earth is it for heavy armor only anyways? It'd be perfect for my character now that I look at it, but she's a clothy. Maybe I can get my DM to just houserule that in.

Kylarra
2009-10-24, 08:00 PM
I suppose part of the "downside" is that while it is clothes you don't get the AC bonus.

pingcode20
2009-10-24, 08:05 PM
Shiftweave is only 500gp, although you did miss the bit where it gives +2 Circumstance to Disguise if the outfit is appropriate. It's pretty much a pure fluff item, and its other main consumer is nobles who want to wear more than one fancy dress to the ball.

I have no idea what 4e item pricing is like, but there you go.

Grynning
2009-10-24, 08:07 PM
@ Kylarra: Right, but the downside would apply equally to light armor, since the enhancement bonus to armor wouldn't apply (being basically transferred to the bluff check for your disguise), at least I think that's how it would work.

Hell, now that I think about it, you could even make Shiftweave a special material for cloth armor, just give it the flavor text of being able to change it's appearance to other sets of clothing, minimum enhancement bonus of +2, and a bonus to Bluff instead of the bonus to a defense like most masterwork armors. Even that wouldn't really be overpowered in the context of the existence of Imposter's Armor.

Kylarra
2009-10-24, 08:10 PM
@ Kylarra: Right, but the downside would apply equally to light armor, since the enhancement bonus to armor wouldn't apply (being basically transferred to the bluff check for your disguise), at least I think that's how it would work.

Hell, now that I think about it, you could even make Shiftweave a special material for cloth armor, just give it the flavor text of being able to change it's appearance to other sets of clothing, minimum enhancement bonus of +2, and a bonus to Bluff instead of the bonus to a defense like most masterwork armors. Even that wouldn't really be overpowered in the context of the existence of Imposter's Armor.Nah it doesn't apply "equally" to light armor since those who wear heavy armor tend to have non-existant or low int/dex whereas those in light will generally have decent ones, so "unarmored" as it were is only a minor drop as opposed to a significant one.

That said, I don't see a particular reason why it shouldn't be done, you're forgoing other special abilities to have another redundant bluff bonus.

Grynning
2009-10-24, 08:13 PM
Nah it doesn't apply "equally" to light armor since those who wear heavy armor tend to have non-existant or low int/dex whereas those in light will generally have decent ones, so "unarmored" as it were is only a minor drop as opposed to a significant one.

That said, I don't see a particular reason why it shouldn't be done, you're forgoing other special abilities to have another redundant bluff bonus.

I don't even really care about the Bluff bonus, my bluff check for disguises is +26 at level 12 as it is. I just wanted the cool shapeshifting clothing to go with cool shapeshifting me.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-24, 08:17 PM
I don't even really care about the Bluff bonus, my bluff check for disguises is +26 at level 12 as it is. I just wanted the cool shapeshifting clothing to go with cool shapeshifting me.

You're level twelve? Just buy a Hat of Disguise then, job done. >_>

Kylarra
2009-10-24, 08:18 PM
I don't even really care about the Bluff bonus, my bluff check for disguises is +26 at level 12 as it is. I just wanted the cool shapeshifting clothing to go with cool shapeshifting me.Like I said, another redundant bluff bonus. :smalltongue: I've got a changeling character written up myself that I plan to sub in if my druid dies in our current campaign. XD

Mando Knight
2009-10-24, 08:23 PM
I didn't realize Imposter's armor could be any clothing you want, I thought it was just one outfit. Why on earth is it for heavy armor only anyways? It'd be perfect for my character now that I look at it, but she's a clothy. Maybe I can get my DM to just houserule that in.

I have no idea, either.

Here's a quick 'n dirty substitute:

Shiftweave Armor +X
Level 7, 12, etc.
Armor: Cloth, (Leather?)
Enhancement: +X AC
Property: A Changeling can use this item's power in the same action that it uses the "Changeling Disguise" power.
Power (At-Will*Polymorph):
Minor Action. This armor transforms into the form of any normal-looking (i.e. non-magical) set of clothing. You can apply this armor's enhancement bonus to any Bluff check used to disguise your appearance. You can change this armor back to its original form as a minor action.

It's a level higher than Impostor's Armor because it doesn't deactivate its defensive capabilities when it's shifted, and it syncs with the Changeling racial power.

Grynning
2009-10-24, 08:26 PM
Changelings are totally my favorite race, I was so happy when 4th ed. Eberron came out. I actually liked Changelings before they existed in D&D, since Palladium Fantasy (a highly underrated game) has had them since way back when.

This thread actually came about because I was working on a 4th ed update of my 3.5 changeling, Quo, a Rogue/Cleric of the Traveller (did him as a bard with cleric and rogue multiclassing for 4th), and I remembered that he had a shiftweave outfit and thought, oh, that would be great for Marwa.

Edit, @ MK: I like that. I'll run it past my DM next time we get together.

Mando Knight
2009-10-24, 08:30 PM
Another idea: you're not using the clothing for combat directly, right? Why not purchase a suit of +2 Impostor's Chainmail that you wear most of the time? Perhaps you could wear your normal armor underneath it occasionally, shifting the chainmail to something easy to pull off when you're about to go into battle.

Grynning
2009-10-24, 08:34 PM
I dunno, that just seems kinda silly. My DM is pretty easygoing and I'm sure he'll allow some sort of homebrew, I just didn't want to ask for it without knowing about how much it should cost.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-24, 08:51 PM
Seriously, the hat does everything you need, reinforces your abilities, and gives further bonuses to bluff. It also doesn't take up a slot, and requires no homebrew or tinkering of any kind, and shouldn't even be that expensive for your character as a level 12. Why not just go with that? O_o

Mando Knight
2009-10-24, 08:52 PM
It also doesn't take up a slot,

Your head is no longer a slot?:smallconfused:

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-24, 08:56 PM
Your head is no longer a slot?:smallconfused:

Well, it doesn't take up your Armour slot, is what I meant. It's certainly not a slot usually used in a starting character, if nothing else? (Armour, weapon, neck.)