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Pika...
2009-10-24, 08:12 PM
Well, to not type everything up again here is an email I just sent to both my/our DMs and the other player with us:


Oh my god. No, I mean oh my god.

Jordon is WAY too big of a powergamer to play in a group like ours. What happened today was insane. No, I did not leave because I needed to go to Best Buy. Yes I went, but I did not need to. I left because there was honestly no reason for me to have stayed at that game.

I am assuming this adventure/dungeon was made by Kevin assuming the entire group (minus Reya since she only comes for Peter's game) would be there, but even with just I, Stephen, and him there Jordon just breathed at the BBEG and turned it to dust.

I was literally drooling for this encounter. Not even kidding. Stephen probably noticed how I was looking at the scene. The model was awesome, the description was great and told very mood making, the entire scene, scenario, and just the look on the table of everything there was the kind of encounter I have been waiting years for. But then Jordon used his "ONCE A DAY big gun", and just blowed some air at it and ended the entire encounter before the Big Bad even had a word in, gave us any information, attacked, or ANYTHING AT ALL.

Don't get me wrong, I myself have a favorite recurring character you all know, but I do not hurt the game/group with him. Jordan does not truly know "every trick in the book". He merely knows every one of the major most abuseable tricks, and reuses them again and again cookie-cutter style in every one of his characters.

I remember that Jordan was using the same transmutation trick when I first played with him with the Alpha Grim years ago. He carried around his little cage, and made all the BBEGs little lizards to put in there. Even then he was telling me about PAST characters he did that with.

Jordan new Undead suffer with their Fort Saves due to not having Con (except some intelligent ones I believe)(metagame much?), and even then with using his array of meta feats he not only got the save up to a 27 (I immediately knew the encounter was over at that point, and I even told Kevin that. I wanted to just tell him to forget it.) but ALSO used a few scorching rays on the 1HD PIG in the same turn. Couldn't even let someone slaughter a 1HD pig? Sure the bacon joke was a bit funny, but that was it.

And his damn hydra trick. Again, a trick he was using years ago in the original game I played with him. He freaking took down the Durger (sp?) in one round, and nearly killed off the bear mount as well in the same freaking round. If he wasn't getting so many low rolls he would have, and Stephen wouldn't have been able to finish it up (which was all he really did).

There was truly no point of me, or anyone being there. As I have said before, there is nothing wrong with powergaming or playing more roleplaying oriented. The problem is when you have one player from the other branch in a group. I was being harassed and constantly bothered by Brian's group (which Jordan thinks so highly of) for having a character which was "too weak" and "useless"", but which I loved, and still think of as one of my favorites of all time. Eventually I just had to leave. I think Brian even stopped calculating/counting me when it came to CR ratings, because everyone was a Jordon level powergamer (actually, compared to them Jordan was nothing). Now I am seeing what I predicted come true about a powergamer playing in a non-powergamer group. Jordon could probably do this adventure completely by himself. The only reason it is not yet happening in Peter's game is due to us still being low-level.


...
.......
Sorry, I am just still steamed. Again, I was even drooling for this encounter.

Call me up Stephen or Peter if you are not getting home too late for yourselves. Would like to discuss this and get your thoughts on this.


I just got home, and am finally cooling off.


This is the follow email I just wrote:

Oh, and one more thing.

On Thursday I warned Jordon about playing my character for me. Both Peter ad Stephen were there. He did it today anyway.

I punished the group today by not doing what he was TELLING me to do, even though I was already planning to do it but EVEN BETTER because my character sheet has an item Jordon did not know about.

I apologies to the DMs, but if he has not learned his lesson (which I am pretty sure he has not) I will be making the message clearer. I do not want o cause problems or inter-player conflicts in the group, but I will not have him playing my characters. I do not care if you continue to allow it, or if the other players allow it for themselves. I will not be allowing it.




Any advice from the experienced players/DMs please?

Kylarra
2009-10-24, 08:15 PM
Talk to the player? :smalltongue:

Else leave the group or see if everyone else agrees with you and kick him out of the group/campaign/start a new campaign without him.

What you have is a player issue and no amount of ingame effort is going to change that.

Milskidasith
2009-10-24, 08:18 PM
So he killed the BBEG you were looking forward to fighting in one hit by having a very strong strategy?

Well, there are a few things:

1. He was using PaO with a save of 27, correct? That shouldn't be hard for a BBEG to make at all... Even without his undead Con, at that level he should easily have high enough saves, or protection from polymorphing.
2. If he's powergaming, then tell him so instead of complaining to other people about it.
3. Try building more mechanically efficient characters. Yes, I know that you don't want to powergame, but having a 27 save on an eighth level spell isn't really in the realm of cheese so much as it is pretty optimized. If you could build characters with good flavor who are still mechanically efficient, he would be able to have challenges for his strong build and you could still work together. Then again, if he's the type that just enjoys saying "I win" then he'll just up the level of cheese if you guys start to match him, so...
4. If all else fails, kick him out.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-10-24, 08:28 PM
I've been in situations where powergamers are in groups with non powergamers. It almost always ends badly.

My only advice is to talk to him. Tell him whats bothering you and ask him to maybe handicap himself to keep himself on par with everybody else. Some powergamers will recognize that they do in fact always blow everyone out of the water and can see it as a challenge to play a weaker character, others LIKE the glory and will continue to make ubers monsters pc's anyway.

it all kind of depends on the person. if he likes doing things by himself and dragging you all along to fawn over his awesomeness he'll probably keep doing it. If he likes being in a game with equal power levels and being part of cooperative play he'll find a creative way to weaken his character and be more of a team player.

Douglas
2009-10-24, 08:29 PM
Depending on whether he knew this or not, he may actually be a munchkin as well as a powergamer: undead are immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) Thus, his Baleful Polymorph, however augmented it might have been, should have automatically failed (if it was actually Polymorph Any Object, disregard this).

There are only two possible ways to solve something like this, and only one of them is guaranteed to work. First, the DM can have a frank discussion with him, explain that his play style is making the game much less fun for the other players, and tell him to hold back on the powergaming. It's possible he's just not aware that his playstyle is not suitable for the group he's in. From the way you describe it I doubt that, though, so this probably won't work. Second, you can expel him from the group. If you convince the rest of the group that this is necessary, the problem player will be gone and that will be that.

Pika...
2009-10-24, 08:31 PM
Talk to the player? :smalltongue:

Else leave the group or see if everyone else agrees with you and kick him out of the group/campaign/start a new campaign without him.

What you have is a player issue and no amount of ingame effort is going to change that.

That is up to the DMs.

I know no amount of talking to this guy will change him.




I've been in situations where powergamers are in groups with non powergamers. It almost always ends badly.

Thank you for the person experiences. Bad news it seems. :smallfrown:




it all kind of depends on the person. if he likes doing things by himself and dragging you all along to fawn over his awesomeness he'll probably keep doing it. If he likes being in a game with equal power levels and being part of cooperative play he'll find a creative way to weaken his character and be more of a team player.

Oh yeah, that's him in my opinion.

Kylarra
2009-10-24, 08:32 PM
That is up to the DMs.
I know no amount of talking to this guy will change him.Well, you're pretty doomed if he's not amenable to changing his game. You've got pretty much two options then.

A) Step up to the op challenge and bring everyone's game up to his.
B) Kick him out/leave.

Pika...
2009-10-24, 08:35 PM
Depending on whether he knew this or not, he may actually be a munchkin as well as a powergamer: undead are immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) Thus, his Baleful Polymorph, however augmented it might have been, should have automatically failed (if it was actually Polymorph Any Object, disregard this).

There are only two possible ways to solve something like this, and only one of them is guaranteed to work. First, the DM can have a frank discussion with him, explain that his play style is making the game much less fun for the other players, and tell him to hold back on the powergaming. It's possible he's just not aware that his playstyle is not suitable for the group he's in. From the way you describe it I doubt that, though, so this probably won't work. Second, you can expel him from the group. If you convince the rest of the group that this is necessary, the problem player will be gone and that will be that.


:smallconfused:

Yes, he proudly claims he is a munchkin. Constantly.

I honestly doubt he would not know that.

Johanas
2009-10-24, 08:37 PM
I've had players leave games I've been in because of powergamers ruining things for them. I've had powergamers leave because they weren't being allowed to powergame. Fortunately this is a rare occurrence for me, on either side of the screen. However, that being said...he sounds very similar to a friend of mine. Good guy, but he hangs out with a of of powergamers and it has completely changed his play style. He has had more characters die than I can count, just to stay in character. And now he has shifted away from roleplaying, and is a freaking munchkin. It sucks, but I have talked with him, and things have gotten better. You may have bad luck running right at you, but you may be able to fix things too. I guess what I'm saying is...don't let it ruin the game, but don't expect great results either. I always love reading stuff your crazy mind comes up with, and I'm really sorry this happened.

jiriku
2009-10-24, 08:40 PM
It sounds like Jordon may just be having too much fun doing things his way to notice that he's ruining your fun. You're there on the spot, and you'll know best what to do, but here are some possible reactions:

Tell Jordon (politely) that his character is overshadowing the group and you'd like to be able to toss a few more dice in combat before he kills the monsters, and ask him to try a new challenge: build an powerful character who is optimized for party-buffing. He can build a powerful, mechanically effective character, and everyone else can get their turn in the limelight because he's using his actions to make you stronger instead of eliminating all your targets.

Alternately, swallow your pride and ask him for help in optimizing your character. "Fun and Cool" and "Badass Killing Machine" don't have to be mutually exclusive in a character, and once you're all playing mean, lean monster-killing machines, you'll share in the glory equally. Your fellow playgrounders can help with that too.

Also, send your DM here. He needs help. I mean, one BBEG, alone, with no backup or support, against a full party of adventurers, and the BBEG isn't even protected against polymorph when there's a player for whom polymorphing enemies is his signature uber attack? WTF? He might as well arm the BBEG with a +10 Sword of Instantly Slaying Everything (Except Squid) when one of the PCs is an anthropomorphic squid.

Edit: wow the whole ninja clan hit me there.

Douglas
2009-10-24, 08:42 PM
:smallconfused:

Yes, he proudly claims he is a munchkin. Constantly.

I honestly doubt he would not know that.
:smalleek: If he actually knows the difference between munchkin and powergamer, kick him out. Now. Powergaming is taking advantage of the rules to build a powerful character. Being a munchkin is outright breaking the rules and cheating to make a more powerful character, and I absolutely would not tolerate that behavior by any player. A player who breaks the rules for the sake of his character's power and is proud of that fact is beyond any possibility of compromising with.

If he thinks munchkin is just another word for powergaming it might still be possible to reason with him but don't get your hopes up too much.

Mando Knight
2009-10-24, 08:47 PM
If he's a munchkin, send a radioactive Plutonium Dragon in a black helicopter from another dimension and its mate after him. :smalltongue:

Flickerdart
2009-10-24, 08:53 PM
If he's a munchkin, send a radioactive Plutonium Dragon in a black helicopter from another dimension and its mate after him. :smalltongue:
Surely you mean an anti-Osmium dragon.

Signmaker
2009-10-24, 09:12 PM
If he's a munchkin, send a radioactive Plutonium Dragon in a black helicopter from another dimension and its mate after him. :smalltongue:

Disregarding the black helicopter (?), that's at least, what, a level 60 fight?

Fluffles
2009-10-24, 09:13 PM
House rules. They are the answer to every bit of cheese there is.

And I like to powergame, but I don't do it so that I can kill everything ever. I like leaving huge gaping holes in my defenses to that my DMs can screw with me.

(Like I once made a character who had ~60 strength as his base, but he had no way of flying and had no way to attack at range, was a very fun character though. Kung-Fu (AKA, Swordsage) Werebears are fun :smallbiggrin:)

Flickerdart
2009-10-24, 09:14 PM
House rules. They are the answer to every bit of cheese there is.

And I like to powergame, but I don't do it so that I can kill everything ever. I like leaving huge gaping holes in my defenses to that my DMs can screw with me.

(Like I once made a character who had ~60 strength as his base, but he had no way of flying and had no way to attack at range, was a very fun character though. Kung-Fu (AKA, Swordsage) Werebears are fun :smallbiggrin:)
Doesn't that give you an enormous Jump check though? With a nice running start you could yank Dragons out of the air.

Xyk
2009-10-24, 09:20 PM
House rules. They are the answer to every bit of cheese there is.

And I like to powergame, but I don't do it so that I can kill everything ever. I like leaving huge gaping holes in my defenses to that my DMs can screw with me.

(Like I once made a character who had ~60 strength as his base, but he had no way of flying and had no way to attack at range, was a very fun character though. Kung-Fu (AKA, Swordsage) Werebears are fun :smallbiggrin:)

With 60ush strength, you totally have a ranged weapon. THE GROUND! A TREE! THE ROGUE! You have to be creative.

EleventhHour
2009-10-24, 09:21 PM
+10 Sword of Instantly Slaying Everything (Except Squid) when one of the PCs is an anthropomorphic squid.


...Ah. Um...

...Nevermind. Not asking.

If he's a mage, convince the DM to run a single encounter in The Mysterious Cave of Antimagic Fields, Death, and Rabbits, and no the last two are not mutually exclusive, and the Rabbit has Extraordinary abilities and is therefore unaffected by the fields, and AAaaaaaarrrrrrgggggghhh...

Bonus points if the sign includes all of that, and is hung on a string of twisted tuna above the entrance of the cave.

Fluffles
2009-10-24, 09:22 PM
Doesn't that give you an enormous Jump check though? With a nice running start you could yank Dragons out of the air.

Yeah, but I nearly got killed by an ECL 7 Pixie at level 18 gestalt:smalltongue:

Greater invis+flying enemies tend to hurt...

But yeah, I was a Warblade with a heavy Tiger Claw lean. I think he had about a +70ish jump check after items were added in there. But yeah, bad will save also. But I had Moment of perfect mind to help with that.

Godskook
2009-10-24, 09:27 PM
Step 1 is to comb through this guy's build with a fine tooth comb. Figure out what he's doing, and learn how. A friend of mine plays with a MTG deck that out-plays mine by 3-4 turns. First thing I did was start learning his deck. Turns out he was making at least 3 rules violations with his deck*. Once I proved that these violations were not legal, his deck calmed down a lot. His mistakes were honest, and consistent(His brother played the same way with a goblin deck, despite being unable to beat him). See if this guy also suffers from 'rules ignorance' because those that do aren't typically interested in discovering the flaws in their super-combos.

An alternative is to limit him to certain classes by tier. If he can't be 'trusted' to play tier 1 classes, restrict him to tier 2 or lower. One possibility is to challenge him into playing a Monk or Samurai, or similarly weak class..

*He was doubling the MC reduction from his banneret, allowing him to get out Thorntooths for cheaper than he should've. He was triggering Thorntooth's ability from 'putting into play', when it is a 'when you play' ability. I forget what else.

jiriku
2009-10-24, 09:34 PM
...Ah. Um...

...Nevermind. Not asking.



It's a reference, both to the Munchkin card game and to the games Pika typically runs/posts about, which are sort of like eating a bag of Skittles when each color of Skittle has been spiked with a different hallucinogen.

Edit: And I mean that in a good way, Roland.

ericgrau
2009-10-24, 09:44 PM
You and the entire group should talk to the player, explain up front that you think he should be kicked if he doesn't change, for that matter be open in general (bring the matter up in front of him at the same time as everyone else), and then if that fails kick him. If the group is reluctant to do so, explain why it isn't worth it for you or them, and that thus you will leave if he doesn't. Simply because the game won't be worth playing anymore and not because you're trying to be whiny to get your way.

Pika...
2009-10-24, 10:03 PM
It's a reference, both to the Munchkin card game and to the games Pika typically runs/posts about, which are sort of like eating a bag of Skittles when each color of Skittle has been spiked with a different hallucinogen.

Edit: And I mean that in a good way, Roland.

Why, chucks, thanks for the kind words and encouragement folks. I am glad people here like the stories I post, and approve of the stuff. :smallredface:



ps. Oh, and id I forget to mention this is not in my game? I run Sundays (and sometimes Thrusdays/Fridays lately). This is my Saturday group, which two of the people I mentioned above alternate DMing different games each week. So I am not at liberty to kick him out.

Mind you, this player is one of the reasons I go low-magic in my own cosmology.

huttj509
2009-10-24, 11:42 PM
I think as stated above there's a few primary questions we need to understand the situation better:

a) What is his technique? Is it baleful polymorph? Polymorph any object? Something else? What level are you?

b) Does his technique actually work? This ties in to a). If it does not work (such as baleful polymorph on undead), the DM should be informed of that, with rules references. The ball is then in the DM's court, not yours.

c) Does the player already know the technique is not supposed to work? If not, well, we've all misread rules, it happens. If yes, he's a munchkin who is purposefully using a tactic that should not work, just because he knows the DM doesn't know the relevant rules. If this is the case, the DM should get that information. The ball is then in the DM's court, not yours. Actually, it was already in the DM's court, but if the player is actually being a munchkin (i.e. cheater), that's more reason to let the DM handle it. You get the DM the info, and if you don't like the (in)action the DM then takes, you leave. He knows the reason, you know the reason, no need to try to bring it up with the munchkin himself (if he is one).

d) If the technique does actually work, then the above comments come into play as they pertain to such a circumstance.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 12:02 AM
I think as stated above there's a few primary questions we need to understand the situation better:

a) What is his technique? Is it baleful polymorph? Polymorph any object? Something else? What level are you?

b) Does his technique actually work? This ties in to a). If it does not work (such as baleful polymorph on undead), the DM should be informed of that, with rules references. The ball is then in the DM's court, not yours.

c) Does the player already know the technique is not supposed to work? If not, well, we've all misread rules, it happens. If yes, he's a munchkin who is purposefully using a tactic that should not work, just because he knows the DM doesn't know the relevant rules. If this is the case, the DM should get that information. The ball is then in the DM's court, not yours. Actually, it was already in the DM's court, but if the player is actually being a munchkin (i.e. cheater), that's more reason to let the DM handle it. You get the DM the info, and if you don't like the (in)action the DM then takes, you leave. He knows the reason, you know the reason, no need to try to bring it up with the munchkin himself (if he is one).

d) If the technique does actually work, then the above comments come into play as they pertain to such a circumstance.


Well, let's see how well my memory serves. (Please note I have little love for arcane or magic in general, I am a psionics fan till the end, so I never payed too much attention to exactly how he builds is cookie-cutter PC).

a) Tricks he has used on his cookie-cutter PC since I have first played with him that I can recall off the top of my head.

1. Transforms into the best possible thing he can at his level. Currently he is basically a hydra 24/7.

2. Transforms enemies into "pets" to put in a cage (hence pumping his ego). He prefers it when they retain their memories...

3. He is a big boom stick. Yet he claims psionics is broken for this...

4. He always takes that Arcane Order bit where he can call up any spell he wants (he keeps the Spell Compendium in front of him at all times). Honestly, so broken. If the DM gives a single day of rest the PC has payed back his spell debt, and then some. Basically he has all spells, at all times. Now that I think about it, the Spell Compendium is his spellbook.

5. He does stuff with his meta feats I honestly do not have a clue about.


He is a glass cannon, though, considering how many times I have needed to stuff him in my Bag of Holding to get reincarnated. So much so that he considers reincarnation a way to make a wizard stronger.


b) I will be checking what he does from now on thanks to this thread.


c) I have emailed the DMs of this current incident. Again, I honestly doubt the guy instantly jumping in each time I messed up a spell's rules and correcting me conveniently forgot this particular one which he has used for years.

Count Dravda
2009-10-25, 12:47 AM
Is this guy your friend? This is important, and often-overlooked. You can't really sever all ties with him if you regularly hang out, because he's probably a pretty cool guy, out of game. If he is your friend, talk to him, calmly, and politely. Everyone here has given a lot of good advice: play a buffer, play a monk/samurai, help you optimize your favorite concept, or intentionally tone his character down. (Speaking as a powergamer myself, it's difficult to intentionally tone down a character, so he might have more luck just playing with something really weak.)

How he reacts from there is his choice. Best case scenario, everything is resolved and you keep playing together. Worst case scenario, you or he leave the game. You're already running another one that he's not in, so you're not losing D&D entirely.

Of course, if he's not your friend, you're basically left to "Worst case scenario" (see above). Either your group kicks him, or you leave. It'll be sad to come to that, though.

-Count Dravda

Solaris
2009-10-25, 01:04 AM
He is a glass cannon, though, considering how many times I have needed to stuff him in my Bag of Holding to get reincarnated. So much so that he considers reincarnation a way to make a wizard stronger.

... I'd quit getting him reincarnated, personally.

Tanaric
2009-10-25, 01:07 AM
... I'd quit getting him reincarnated, personally.

This, pretty much. If the rest of your group feels anything like you do about this character, why do they keep paying to bring him back?

"Sorry, turns out we don't have a thousand gp on hand. Shucks, and I lost my bag of holding, too! Oh well, I heard there was a CW Samurai about to become a PC in the next town, so hey, you could play him!"

:smallwink:

gdiddy
2009-10-25, 01:15 AM
I'd take the DM aside and say that you're really not having fun. He might not be either, if he's crafting all this cool stuff and having it joylessly destroyed in someone else' powertrip. If the only person having fun is the guy playing the wizard, you're doing it wrong.

Not having him reincarnated is really harsh metagaming. Though if you're rally vindictive, put the bag of holding in a portable hole. :-p

Superglucose
2009-10-25, 01:21 AM
This is why I love the Treatmonk wizards (batman too, w/e): everyone else gets to have fun because they're doing mounds of damage to our opponents, and I get to have fun virtually wiping the floor with anything the GM throws at me.

Decoy Lockbox
2009-10-25, 01:23 AM
Guy sounds like a total douche who is using the rules for self-aggrandizement. I mean, yes, going power-mad with a 3.5 wizard can be fun for awhile, but it overshadows the other players and can often ruin the game. Of course, thats a problem with 3.5, but still.

urkthegurk
2009-10-25, 04:56 AM
I'm not really sure what the point is here. I mean, if he admits this, and the DM isn't doing anything, its the DM's problem. Also, if this big old bad guy got to be big and old and bad, how is he not immune to polymorph? Think about it, its undead. It's been around for a long time. It's seen that trick before. And if it's not prepared, then turns out it wasn't a Big Bad. It was just a scary-looking glunker pretending to be. And some people were fooled.

I'd say that this is open and shut, just because you state in your initial post that its intolerable, and how intolerable it is. So stop tolerating it.

More generally, the powergaming situation is much more easy to handle. So people want to play way-to-powerful characters, thats a part of the game. No one should claim that conan isn't overpowered, or gandalf. In this case, it isn't the power, its the rudeness, the controlling, and the abuse of that power.
I try to give my powergamers lots of chances to show off. I have them throw pillars, or cast world-warping spells, because that's what they want. And I make them work for it. Heck, he kills the Big Bad in one round? Let him, and give the other players a separate one to fight. Make him someone you want on your side.

Unless he's a ass, and then that's a separate problem. No matter the play style.

(I don't think that refusing to reincarnate him would be meta. Its what I would do in that situation, assuming that the power-munchkin doesn't go out of his way to roleplay his character really nice. And I love the ironical twist of the portable hole/ bag of holding idea. Its nicely munchkin-esque.)

Jalor
2009-10-25, 06:20 AM
4. He always takes that Arcane Order bit where he can call up any spell he wants (he keeps the Spell Compendium in front of him at all times). Honestly, so broken. If the DM gives a single day of rest the PC has payed back his spell debt, and then some. Basically he has all spells, at all times. Now that I think about it, the Spell Compendium is his spellbook.I play Mages of the Arcane Order often enough to be familiar with the rules. First of all, the DM has final say on what is and isn't available. This can change whenever he wants it to ("Guess someone used up all the Mindrapes today. Why not try a Programmed Amnesia?"). The book only ensures access to PHB spells; non-PHB spells are available only at the DMs discretion.

He can't pay back his debt "and then some". The book actually says you cannot incur a "positive balance" in the Spellpool.

He also needs a full-round action to call a spell and must cast it within the hour.

Gamerlord
2009-10-25, 06:51 AM
A. How much gold do you have? Put a rather large bounty on his charecters head and be done with it, player conflict shmalear conflict.

B.Leave the group.

Riffington
2009-10-25, 07:08 AM
:smalleek: If he actually knows the difference between munchkin and powergamer, kick him out. Now. Powergaming is taking advantage of the rules to build a powerful character. Being a munchkin is outright breaking the rules and cheating to make a more powerful character,

That's not exactly what a munchkin is. A munchkin is someone who is playing for a power trip, even though it's harming the game in some way. You need not cheat to be a munchkin, but either way it really messes up the game.

Kzickas
2009-10-25, 07:41 AM
Not sure if this really qualifies as "ultra powergaming", by level 15 a 27dc on an 8th level spell like Polymorph any object isn't hard. If transmutation is his big thing then it's reasonable for him to have the spell focus and greater spell focus which alone push the dc up to 20, +1 for putting two or more of his three stat increases into his casting stat, +3 from a plus 6 item (easy to have by level 15) and + 3 from a starting casting stat of 16 gives 27. Hardly an effort that deserves the name "Ultra powergaming"

Quietus
2009-10-25, 08:08 AM
2. Transforms enemies into "pets" to put in a cage (hence pumping his ego). He prefers it when they retain their memories...

If the memories bit is a concern, then he's using Baleful Polymorph. An undead is automatically immune to it by virtue of its immunity to "anything requiring a fortitude save".

Riffington
2009-10-25, 08:09 AM
Not sure if this really qualifies as "ultra powergaming", by level 15 a 27dc on an 8th level spell like Polymorph any object isn't hard. If transmutation is his big thing then it's reasonable for him to have the spell focus and greater spell focus which alone push the dc up to 20, +1 for putting two or more of his three stat increases into his casting stat, +3 from a plus 6 item (easy to have by level 15) and + 3 from a starting casting stat of 16 gives 27. Hardly an effort that deserves the name "Ultra powergaming"

But the problem isn't whether he's good at it or not. The problem is that he's hurting the game and doesn't care.

Amiel
2009-10-25, 08:12 AM
Ask if the rest of you can play illithid savants (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030608a); 1st to 10th progression can be found in Savage Species.

starfalconkd
2009-10-25, 08:22 AM
Murder his characters while they sleep. Buy a scythe and coup de grace with all the power attack you can muster. Most people will die from this.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-25, 09:16 AM
Other than his attitude, the guy isn't ultra powergaming. He is just optimized while having a bad attitude (assuming you are describing him correctly).

All his spells/DCs are core possible. MotAO isn't Core but just compounds that issue. You just found out Core wasn't balanced?

lord_khaine
2009-10-25, 09:35 AM
1. Transforms into the best possible thing he can at his level. Currently he is basically a hydra 24/7.

2. Transforms enemies into "pets" to put in a cage (hence pumping his ego). He prefers it when they retain their memories...

3. He is a big boom stick. Yet he claims psionics is broken for this...

4. He always takes that Arcane Order bit where he can call up any spell he wants (he keeps the Spell Compendium in front of him at all times). Honestly, so broken. If the DM gives a single day of rest the PC has payed back his spell debt, and then some. Basically he has all spells, at all times. Now that I think about it, the Spell Compendium is his spellbook.

5. He does stuff with his meta feats I honestly do not have a clue about.


a)He is a glass cannon, though, considering how many times I have needed to stuff him in my Bag of Holding to get reincarnated. So much so that he considers reincarnation a way to make a wizard stronger.


b) I will be checking what he does from now on thanks to this thread.


c) I have emailed the DMs of this current incident. Again, I honestly doubt the guy instantly jumping in each time I messed up a spell's rules and correcting me conveniently forgot this particular one which he has used for years.


1. i cant see the big issue here, you have a guy with d4 hp and wizard bab, who likes to polymorp himself and go into melee combat?
In most cases that should leave him bleeding on the ground, but maybe thats what is leading to a)?

2. honestly cant see anything wrong with this, it sounds like propper wizard behavior, though if anyone casts a dispel magic at him, then he runs the risk of all his enemies suddely getting free at once.

3. not much to comment on here.

4. cant see the problem here, as i recall he can only call up 1 spell per day, and he cant even be sure that it contains any of the noncore spells.

5. try and recall what feat he uses, can be he is using some illegal combinations.

a) since he lose a level each time he gets reincarnatet, shouldnt he be quite a bit behind the party in level?

c) It is not impossible that he "forget" details that goes against him, but i guess you know the guy better than us.

edit. it would help if we knew what level you are playing on btw.

Djibriel
2009-10-25, 10:18 AM
Most posts here offer good solutions on approaching the problem of the munchkin. His style of playing the game is disruptive (to one player, anyway) and it doesn't sound like he's willing to work with that problem. So there's something to talk about.

On another note, there's another thing I recognize here. And first, let me make clear that I have the best intentions in saying this. In your opening post, I read that you left the game for no direct reason (out of anger) and write an e-mail expressing your disgust with the way things were going (anticlimatic climax of the game). Furthermore, I understand you kind of sabotaged something in-game out of the problem you have with the DM controlling your player character. I assume he did this while you were not there.

Not to sound like a goof here, but I sense a lot of negative emotion here. Being annoyed with the problem is only logical, but it seems you've gone past 'annoyed' and way into 'upset'. You use words like "punished" and "insane" and say "I will not be allowing it." and "I was literally drooling for this encounter. Not even kidding.". That's kind of powerful for a game of d20, man.

I think it's important to maintain some distance between you and the course of the game; it is, after all, only a game you play to have a good time. If it's causing you this amount of bitterness, maybe it's time to re-evaluate your level of attachment?

Mando Knight
2009-10-25, 12:57 PM
Disregarding the black helicopter (?), that's at least, what, a level 60 fight?

...in a Black Helicopter is from Munchkin Impossible. I think it's +5 to level, and makes the monster an "In Black" monster, which allows everyone to throw any other "In Black" monsters they've got on hand into the encounter.

Moriato
2009-10-25, 01:14 PM
Solution sounds easy to me. Break Enchantment.

How many angry bad guys is he carrying around with him again?

Random NPC
2009-10-25, 01:19 PM
Yeah, guy is not even close to powergamer. He's just optimized.

The only solution is rule scrutiny from the DM's part. Double check his everything.

Also, direct him towards the Batman/God Wizard threads. Also the Psionics Myth thread (since I really dislike people thinking Psionics is OP)

The Glyphstone
2009-10-25, 01:48 PM
If he's a munchkin, send a radioactive Plutonium Dragon in a black helicopter from another dimension and its mate after him. :smalltongue:

Bah. More like an Amazingly Buffed Legendary Astoundingly Armor-Plated Two-Headed Rootin-Tootin' Mind-Bogglingly Ancient Unbelievably Ultra-Rare Extremely Hairy Stealthy Intelligent Raving Humongous Drooling Undead Rip-Snortin' Ravenous Gol-Darned Gibbering Radioactive Sneaky Mutant Ornery Frothing Dire Exploding Plutonium Dragon of Biblical Proportions From Hell In A Black Helicopter From Another Dimension And His Clan And Its Little Friends And Its Clone plus a Mate With His Midget Clone And Its Spawn? And while we're at it, Wandering Monster in the Gazebo to make sure he can't get help from anyone.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 02:20 PM
4. cant see the problem here, as i recall he can only call up 1 spell per day, and he cant even be sure that it contains any of the noncore spells.

Wait, WHAT?!

He calls much more than one.


OK, I just looked up the Arcane Order. At most he should have up to half his level in equivalent spell levels per day. I will keep track of this from now on.

Also, he has not done the tithes and such at all.

Kylarra
2009-10-25, 02:31 PM
He can call a number of total spell levels per day equal to half his caster level.

Although it's worth pointing out that only PHB spells are automatically in the pool, anything else has to be specifically approved by DM.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 02:33 PM
Well, let's see how well my memory serves. (Please note I have little love for arcane or magic in general, I am a psionics fan till the end, so I never payed too much attention to exactly how he builds is cookie-cutter PC).

a) Tricks he has used on his cookie-cutter PC since I have first played with him that I can recall off the top of my head.

1. Transforms into the best possible thing he can at his level. Currently he is basically a hydra 24/7.

Not unusual. Polymorph is a common trick, and yeah, it can be powerful. If the exact same polymorph is always ideal, though, the DM probably isn't giving you a lot of variety in fights. Hydras are all well and good, but the size can be a huge problem in some situations. Not every fight should take place in a location with all the room you need.


2. Transforms enemies into "pets" to put in a cage (hence pumping his ego). He prefers it when they retain their memories...

I could see that being an amusing schtick, albeit a dangerous one. Im pretty sure there's a rule on the evil overlord list about not leaving your "weak, harmless opponents" alive. This is just begging for the DM to wreak havok with him. It's not really powergaming, though.


3. He is a big boom stick. Yet he claims psionics is broken for this...

Unfortunate...psionics isn't much different from magic, but there is a huge perception that pisonics is overpowered. I know many a real life player with the same attitude, despite them never having played a psion.


4. He always takes that Arcane Order bit where he can call up any spell he wants (he keeps the Spell Compendium in front of him at all times). Honestly, so broken. If the DM gives a single day of rest the PC has payed back his spell debt, and then some. Basically he has all spells, at all times. Now that I think about it, the Spell Compendium is his spellbook.

It's a good PrC, yes. However, it's not turning you into a wizard/sorc. Keep in mind he's also getting cooperative spell, which it sounds like is a wasted feat for him to get in. The PrC eventually replaces this, but it's less power for a time. Also, your level in MoTAO determines what level of spells you can cast from the spellpool. You don't get them all until level 10.


5. He does stuff with his meta feats I honestly do not have a clue about.

What metamagic feats are we talking here? And why is it a problem? Also, why is it his problem that you're not familiar with metamagic? Very few people know every aspect of the game, and we all tend to know the classes we play much better than other ones. If you want to discuss metamagic, this is a great forum to do it in, but use of it alone doesn't make someone a powergamer or a bad player.


He is a glass cannon, though, considering how many times I have needed to stuff him in my Bag of Holding to get reincarnated. So much so that he considers reincarnation a way to make a wizard stronger.

This is a bit confusing. Generally "dies often" and "powergamer" are not the same. At most, that'd make him a poor powergamer, since staying alive is generally considered a plus.

Im also confused as how reincarnation makes wizards stronger. Either you're blowing a level for raise dead, or paying a goodly sum for a true rez. Either result would generally make one weaker.


c) I have emailed the DMs of this current incident. Again, I honestly doubt the guy instantly jumping in each time I messed up a spell's rules and correcting me conveniently forgot this particular one which he has used for years.

Could be either way. Try not to pass judgement too quickly, as even those who have played for years make rules mistakes. Im the rules guy for my group, due to experience and a good collection of books, but believe me, I still make mistakes. In general, assuming honest mistakes is the best way to start out. If it's intentional cheating, it'll show up again.

tyckspoon
2009-10-25, 02:35 PM
He can call a number of total spell levels per day equal to his MotAo levels.

Although it's worth pointing out that only PHB spells are automatically in the pool, anything else has to be specifically approved by DM.

It's actually spell levels equal to half his caster level. That generally works out that he can get one extra spell of the highest level he can cast, or three or so lower-level but still relevant spells. Does some interesting things with caster-level optimization.

The other caveat to remember is that the level of the spell he can draw does depend on his class levels in MotAO. He needs level 4 for 3-6 level spells and level 7 for 7-9; if he jumps out of the class for a more powerful PrC too quickly (like after level 2, which pays back the feat you burn on Coop Spellcasting), he'll never be able to use the Spellpool for stronger spells.

Kylarra
2009-10-25, 02:36 PM
It's a good PrC, yes. However, it's not turning you into a wizard/sorc. Keep in mind he's also getting cooperative spell, which it sounds like is a wasted feat for him to get in. The PrC eventually replaces this, but it's less power for a time. Also, your level in MoTAO determines what level of spells you can cast from the spellpool. You don't get them all until level 10.Technically level 7 is spellpool III.


It's actually spell levels equal to half his caster level. That generally works out that he can get one extra spell of the highest level he can cast, or three or so lower-level but still relevant spells. Does some interesting things with caster-level optimization.

The other caveat to remember is that the level of the spell he can draw does depend on his class levels in MotAO. He needs level 4 for 3-6 level spells and level 7 for 7-9; if he jumps out of the class for a more powerful PrC too quickly (like after level 2, which pays back the feat you burn on Coop Spellcasting), he'll never be able to use the Spellpool for stronger spells.
You caught me just before editing actually. :smallredface:

Pika...
2009-10-25, 02:37 PM
He can call a number of total spell levels per day equal to half his caster level.

Although it's worth pointing out that only PHB spells are automatically in the pool, anything else has to be specifically approved by DM.

ninja'd. My first time. :smallsmile:


I will also keep track of which spells he calls are coming from the PHB from now on.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 03:07 PM
Well, let's see how well my memory serves. (Please note I have little love for arcane or magic in general, I am a psionics fan till the end, so I never payed too much attention to exactly how he builds is cookie-cutter PC).

a) Tricks he has used on his cookie-cutter PC since I have first played with him that I can recall off the top of my head.

1. Transforms into the best possible thing he can at his level. Currently he is basically a hydra 24/7.
Yes, that is polymorph for you, the DM is choosing to allow it too so why WOULDN'T he use it? and why arne't enemies using it?


2. Transforms enemies into "pets" to put in a cage (hence pumping his ego). He prefers it when they retain their memories...
So a single dispel magic and all his enemies come back at once? this isn't power gaming, this is role playing.


3. He is a big boom stick. Yet he claims psionics is broken for this...
This says nothing at all


4. He always takes that Arcane Order bit where he can call up any spell he wants (he keeps the Spell Compendium in front of him at all times). Honestly, so broken. If the DM gives a single day of rest the PC has payed back his spell debt, and then some. Basically he has all spells, at all times. Now that I think about it, the Spell Compendium is his spellbook.
It is one of the best PrCs around, and is surprisingly powerful... Again it falls to your DM should not be allowing this. And why aren't enemies using polymorph or are part of the arcane order?
Also sounds like the DM is giving it quite a boost by allowing non PHB spells.


5. He does stuff with his meta feats I honestly do not have a clue about.
Then learn.


He is a glass cannon, though, considering how many times I have needed to stuff him in my Bag of Holding to get reincarnated. So much so that he considers reincarnation a way to make a wizard stronger.
Does he pay for it out of his own pocket or does the party pools their money to pay for it? cause it should be the former... as for reincarnation getting stronger, you mean the spell where you come back as a random creature? that does NOT make a wizard stronger, it makes him WEAKER. why? you can come back as a creature with HD or level adjustment, your spells are identical to before, you get a few abilities or HD that are totally obsolete at levels 10+, and you get an LA, meaning you are gonna lag behind the party...
If you mean resurrected, then negative levels or obscene costs...

Also OP, why are you REFUSING to bring up the issue with him when the situation arises?
The guy is playing a tier 1 character, dying a lot, roleplays (putting himself at great danger), and has a sense of humor (wasting a high level fire spell on a 1 HD pig to crack a bacon joke is NOT powergaming or "not letting anyone else kill it"... hitting it with a sword doesn't make the joke and he didn't need to waste the spell)

Starbuck_II
2009-10-25, 03:27 PM
Does he pay for it out of his own pocket or does the party pools their money to pay for it? cause it should be the former... as for reincarnation getting stronger, you mean the spell where you come back as a random creature? that does NOT make a wizard stronger, it makes him WEAKER. why? you can come back as a creature with HD or level adjustment, your spells are identical to before, you get a few abilities or HD that are totally obsolete at levels 10+, and you get an LA, meaning you are gonna lag behind the party...
If you mean resurrected, then negative levels or obscene costs...


No. I repeat no.
You do not gain HD or LA. It says you HD stay the same (minus the one from the spell).

Iku Rex
2009-10-25, 03:57 PM
Let me see if I've got this straight. Pika...'s character has a powerful and useful ally helping him achieve his goals.

However, Pika..., the player, is unhappy that another player's character is more effective at defeating opponents than his own.

My advice to Pika... : Try role-playing more and roll-playing less. That way you won't have to worry so much about another player's character having "more pluses" than yours.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 04:04 PM
No. I repeat no.
You do not gain HD or LA. It says you HD stay the same (minus the one from the spell).

That is true... but it doesn't seem to be the case in here... And I am asking him to clarify if that is what he MEANT when he said that... As that is the only way I can even begin to imagine someone thinking dying makes him stronger (other then role playing... taking a penalty and thinking it makes you stronger is roleplaying the character's lack of knowledge about the rules)

Pika...
2009-10-25, 04:09 PM
Let me see if I've got this straight. Pika...'s character has a powerful and useful ally helping him achieve his goals.

However, Pika..., the player, is unhappy that another player's character is more effective at defeating opponents than his own.

My advice to Pika... : Try role-playing more and roll-playing less. That way you won't have to worry so much about another player's character having "more pluses" than yours.


What is there to roleplay?

I was going to have a whole discussion with that undead thing about how he should serve Kurtulmak, or his divine power will punish him for threatening local Kobold communities.

The thing never got a chance to put a word in. Neither did I. :smallconfused:

And as for a helpful ally? This character has goals. I have written up his fluf. I do not want to be basically walked through it all doing nothing (like I have for the last two sessions).


And about the dying thing. We both recently joined this group (I am rejoining) at almost the exact same time. I had not played with him in a few years. The last time was in the group which would not stop about my character being "too weak" and a "burden to the party".

He has not had the chance to die yet. But basically he likes coming back as a Bugbear.

And the last DM I played with him under did not "punish" players/PCs by dropping them a level. Now, ironically, one of the two DMs we have does not drop a level for the first death in his campaign.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 04:20 PM
having an ethical discussion with an undead thing? why?
Since when is that roleplaying? there is absolutely nothing to talk about, it is an evil undead thing, kill it.

As for you WANTING to talk to that thing... have you actually TOLD him you want to TALK to the thing and he killed it knowing that? (that would make him a jerk)
You flat out REFUSE to talk to him when people suggest that. How can he be expected to know that you have some a plan of converting the undead horror to serve your god?

I noticed that you mention you feel "useless" for doing "nothing" and that the last PARTY all told you that you were holding them back and being useless.. are you sure they are the problem? sounds like you are playing a combat game with a non combat character.. where everyone else expects combat you intentionally design an "interesting" character with "fluff" that is useless in combat... and feel bad when they kill things instead of whatever it is you want to do.
Maybe this party is not right for you.

Bugbears have a level adjustment, it is illegal for a human to reincarnate as one, reincarnate can only work for equal LA creatures (and equal HD! note that effective level adjustment is LA + HD... so a 3 HD creature with +0 LA is 3 levels behind the party... a 3HD creature with +3 LA is 6 levels behind the party)...

And if he DOES play a creature with HD or LA than he MUST be a number of levels equal to that behind the party... Should he start out as a no LA creature and then transform into one permanently somehow, then he gains XP as a character of higher level (aka, less XP for the same encounter) so he eventually falls behind the party... that is why LA monsters are never worth it for casters... it is better to be a human wiz 17 with 9th level spells than bugbear (3HD +1 LA = 4 levels behind) wiz 13 with 7th level spells.

Level adjustments are explicitly to balance out the PARTY against EACH OTHER.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 04:44 PM
having an ethical discussion with an undead thing? why?
Since when is that roleplaying? there is absolutely nothing to talk about, it is an evil undead thing, kill it.

My PC is a LN cleric of Kurtulmak with plans of building an empire dedicated to his deity. :smallconfused:





I noticed that you mention you feel "useless" for doing "nothing" and that the last PARTY all told you that you were holding them back and being useless.. are you sure they are the problem? sounds like you are playing a combat game with a non combat character.. where everyone else expects combat you intentionally design an "interesting" character with "fluff" that is useless in combat... and feel bad when they kill things instead of whatever it is you want to do.
Maybe this party is not right for you.

{Scrubbed}

In our old powergaming group I learned that I as a roleplayer did not fit in there. I left to avoid more issues.

This group is (or at least was) a good mix of roleplaying and combat. Now we have the opposite of my old situation happening here. We have an experienced powergamer/munchkin in a non-powergamer/munchkin group.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 04:49 PM
Bugbears have a level adjustment, it is illegal for a human to reincarnate as one, reincarnate can only work for equal LA creatures (and equal HD! note that effective level adjustment is LA + HD... so a 3 HD creature with +0 LA is 3 levels behind the party... a 3HD creature with +3 LA is 6 levels behind the party)....

Reincarnation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm)


{Scrubbed}


ps. Oh yeah, and I know at least the Gnoll there has 2 RD and a LA+1. I believe the Troglodyte might have something similar.

Alex112524
2009-10-25, 05:00 PM
I have a question for you Pika, about the first line in the first e-mail you posted, what exactly where you responding to when you said this "Oh my god. No, I mean oh my god."? Also, what does/do the DM/other players feel about this? It seems to me that this player is doing a bit of optimizing and munchkinry, however on the flip side it seems that you are almost entirely unconcerned with your own or other character's stats (unless they seem too strong). Just out of curiosity what is your character's build in the game you are playing? Back on topic, I want to really be sure who's the odd man out. The group where everyone said that you were dragging them down was obviously a bad fit for you. I saw in your last post and the title that you say that this group is more roleplaying oriented as opposed to rollplaying, as you would say (not that those are mutually exclusive, or even opposite each other, it just seems to end up seeming that way, and most don't bother looking for a "middle ground", so to speak). I want to know what the others are saying, to get a better perspective.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 05:04 PM
{Scrubbed}


No. I repeat no.
You do not gain HD or LA. It says you HD stay the same (minus the one from the spell).

I was actually going by what Starbuck II said about no LA differences... The SRD is not always accurate and could be outdated (there could be an eratta that forbids it). I trusted starbuck 2 over the SRD on this one...
Everything else is perfectly accurate and you can find even within the SRD.

Let me quote myself

Should he start out as a no LA creature and then transform into one permanently somehow, then he gains XP as a character of higher level (aka, less XP for the same encounter) so he eventually falls behind the party...

Next issue:


{Scrubbed}
I read everything in this thread thank you very much.

PS. Saying "no offense but <something offensive>" is not really helping your case.

Douglas
2009-10-25, 05:16 PM
I was actually going by what Starbuck II said about no LA differences... The SRD is not always accurate and could be outdated (there could be an eratta that forbids it). I trusted starbuck 2 over the SRD on this one...
In the case of d20srd.org specifically, they update it to include changes from errata every time WotC releases new errata. Whatever is on that site is the latest including all errata.

Iku Rex
2009-10-25, 05:29 PM
What is there to roleplay?
Other PCs won't talk to your character? That undead creature was the only NPC you've ever encountered? You can't role-play your character by deciding how he'd react in various situations that come up in the game?


I was going to have a whole discussion with that undead thing about how he should serve Kurtulmak, or his divine power will punish him for threatening local Kobold communities. Sure, because that was a realistic and sensible thing to do...

Did your character discuss this plan with the party beforehand? Did it have any chance of actually working? Does the rest of the party want an empire of Kurtulmak? Regardless of your answers, it's an opportunity for role-playing.

The thing never got a chance to put a word in. Neither did I. :smallconfused:And how did you role-play that? Did your character get into a shouting match with the wizard? Did he stomp off in a huff? Did he try to dispel the polymorph to make his insane sales-pitch?


And as for a helpful ally? This character has goals. I have written up his fluf. I do not want to be basically walked through it all doing nothing (like I have for the last two sessions). If your cleric can't find anything useful to do you've clearly not put very much thought into the character and his capabilities.

And if you're doing "nothing" you only have yourself to blame.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 05:32 PM
I have a question for you Pika, about the first line in the first e-mail you posted, what exactly where you responding to when you said this "Oh my god. No, I mean oh my god."?

Because it is a subject I ahve been talking to two of them about before.



Also, what does/do the DM/other players feel about this? It seems to me that this player is doing a bit of optimizing and munchkinry, however on the flip side it seems that you are almost entirely unconcerned with your own or other character's stats (unless they seem too strong).

I wish to learn their feelings about this, hence why I emailed both DMs and the only other player that day.

As why I do not feel concerned about my stats/build or that of any other party/group member? Because it is not that type of group. There was no need to. Hence the issue?



Back on topic, I want to really be sure who's the odd man out. The group where everyone said that you were dragging them down was obviously a bad fit for you. I saw in your last post and the title that you say that this group is more roleplaying oriented as opposed to rollplaying, as you would say (not that those are mutually exclusive, or even opposite each other, it just seems to end up seeming that way, and most don't bother looking for a "middle ground", so to speak). I want to know what the others are saying, to get a better perspective.

Again, I wish to learn that myself.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 05:35 PM
I was actually going by what Starbuck II said about no LA differences... The SRD is not always accurate and could be outdated (there could be an eratta that forbids it). I trusted starbuck 2 over the SRD on this one...
Everything else is perfectly accurate and you can find even within the SRD.

Let me quote myself


Next issue:


I read everything in this thread thank you very much.

PS. Saying "no offense but <something offensive>" is not really helping your case.

You said it would be illegal to be reincarnated as a Bugbear. It is #1 on the list.


ps. You still get the going from a whimpy Wizard to being in a Bugbear's body. That is what he likes.

Solaris
2009-10-25, 05:38 PM
Right, so roleplay conveniently 'forgetting' to get him reincarnated next time. Bingo-bango, end o' trouble.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 05:39 PM
Sure, because that was a realistic and sensible thing to do...

Did your character discuss this plan with the party beforehand? Did it have any chance of actually working? Does the rest of the party want an empire of Kurtulmak? Regardless of your answers, it's an opportunity for role-playing.


I find this somewhat funny, in that as someone who reads tvtropes.org the answers are very clear to me. No, as a metagame player it was very clear.





If your cleric can't find anything useful to do you've clearly not put very much thought into the character and his capabilities.

And if you're doing "nothing" you only have yourself to blame.

Soloing a subboss, almost soloing the (dire? fiendish?) bare, and soloing the BBEG all he asked for was two taps of a Cure Light Wand.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-25, 06:25 PM
He brags about being a munchkin, is indeed being a munchkin, and is munchkining in such a way as to actively limit the other players involvement, as well as obliterating encounters that were intended as set-pieces by doing so.

Eh, courtesy says talk with him and/or the rest first, but really I think you've got a handle on the situation, it's likely to become him or you. All that remains is to gauge the others opinions and get it over-with.

Preferably without creating an ungrateful-feeling ultimatum.

Also, I think you've got about all the helpful responses you're likely to from this thread, Pika. ;)

taltamir
2009-10-25, 06:31 PM
You said it would be illegal to be reincarnated as a Bugbear. It is #1 on the list.


ps. You still get the going from a whimpy Wizard to being in a Bugbear's body. That is what he likes.

which replaces his racial bonuses to int with a racial bonus to str, dex, and con and -2 cha... And gives him an XP draining LA.
It is a penalty not a bonus.


He brags about being a munchkin, is indeed being a munchkin, and is munchkining in such a way as to actively limit the other players involvement, as well as obliterating encounters that were intended as set-pieces by doing so.

That assumes he shares your definition of a munchiken...

Pika...
2009-10-25, 06:42 PM
Also, I think you've got about all the helpful responses you're likely to from this thread, Pika. ;)


Yeah, I agree. Thanks Tiki. :smallsmile:




which replaces his racial bonuses to int with a racial bonus to str, dex, and con and -2 cha... And gives him an XP draining LA.
It is a penalty not a bonus.

Wow. I even hyperlinked the SRD. :smalleek:

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-25, 06:46 PM
That assumes he shares your definition of a munchiken...

Well, my definition of a munchkin is someone who (often shoddily) abuses the rules, and/or fails to point out when he is doing something against the rules/illegal for his own advantage;

Ie; using a spell against an enemy that is immune to it, that you know to be the case, but just fudging around that issue and hoping the Dm doesn't notice.

Ie; Exactly what he did. Huh, funny that. :)

taltamir
2009-10-25, 06:48 PM
Wow. I even hyperlinked the SRD. :smalleek:

Which explicitly says everything I said in that line is correct.
He replaces his racial bonuses with new ones in the text. the chart only specifies the physical ones, because any caster would be insane to get reincarnated (which only works on a WILLING target, casters should not be willing to reincarnate, they should want a res instead). non casters can at least beenfit from the bonuses.

You have been abusive towards me for the past page, every time you ignore my arguments or points and attack me, I had ignored it and continued to point things out but I see no real reason to any further. I am outta here.

Iku Rex
2009-10-25, 06:55 PM
I find this somewhat funny, in that as someone who reads tvtropes.org the answers are very clear to me. No, as a metagame player it was very clear.Whereas in-character there was no possible way to predict that your powerful evil undead enemy might not suddenly decide to become your minion after a nice talk about god. If any character thought otherwise, well, it must have been player metagaming. Right?


Soloing a subboss, almost soloing the (dire? fiendish?) bare, and soloing the BBEG all he asked for was two taps of a Cure Light Wand.Ah. I see the problem here. Apparently the entire campaign has been three combat encounters in rapid succession, each against a single opponent.

You need to talk with your DM about this.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 07:03 PM
Technically level 7 is spellpool III.


Ah, thats what I get for using my cursed memory. Still, though, it's a relatively decent investment of levels for the goods. It's a pretty good PrC choice, but not ridiculously so, and if it's DM allowed, and he does it every single game, it's a good indication that the DM at least is ok with it.

I don't see the reincarnation thing as that big of a deal, honestly. I actually assumed he was talking about True Rez or something because as a caster, I would never opt for reincarnation over a true rez.

First off...there's the nasty random element. What happens if you come back as an orc? As a caster, your stats just took a bath. It's a great way to hose your build, not gain power.

Second, none of the creatures are all that powerful. Even if he did get the 1% chance of becoming a bugbear, he just picked up a level adjust in return for useless bonuses like strength. The racial levels are decent, tbh, but taking those instead of advancing casting is just weak.

Edit: Also...I almost forgot. Reincarnation hits him for a level lost. If this is being house ruled away, fine...but be aware that in such a case, the problem is the house rules, not reincarnation or the player.

I'm frankly not at all sure that this guy is a power gamer. Piki, do the other members of the group consider him a power gamer, and have they expressed a problem with his playstyle?

Roland St. Jude
2009-10-25, 07:10 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 07:39 PM
Ah. I see the problem here. Apparently the entire campaign has been three combat encounters in rapid succession, each against a single opponent.

You need to talk with your DM about this.

Actually, this was the first 25(ish?) minutes of just this session. We have had another together where we both joined (I rejoined. This campaign is about 1.8 years old I believe) coincidentally at the same time. And both encounters were in different parts of the ravine/quarry area we were in. And at least a good ten minutes were blown discussing a few things out-of-character. The subboss and the big boss were away from each other (we had to go underwater for the big boss even). I am assuming the DM expected these encounters to take longer than a full-round action each.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 07:47 PM
I don't see the reincarnation thing as that big of a deal, honestly. I actually assumed he was talking about True Rez or something because as a caster, I would never opt for reincarnation over a true rez.

First off...there's the nasty random element. What happens if you come back as an orc? As a caster, your stats just took a bath. It's a great way to hose your build, not gain power.

Second, none of the creatures are all that powerful. Even if he did get the 1% chance of becoming a bugbear, he just picked up a level adjust in return for useless bonuses like strength. The racial levels are decent, tbh, but taking those instead of advancing casting is just weak.

Edit: Also...I almost forgot. Reincarnation hits him for a level lost. If this is being house ruled away, fine...but be aware that in such a case, the problem is the house rules, not reincarnation or the player.

I'm frankly not at all sure that this guy is a power gamer. Piki, do the other members of the group consider him a power gamer, and have they expressed a problem with his playstyle?

Again, the DMs I played with him under did not "punish" him with the level lost. And one of these DMs will not either the first time around.

And what taltamir was missing is that only your physical stats change. Mental ones remain. The table on the link even lists only the Str, Dex, and Con changes.

It also mentions nothing about taking the LAs or Racial HD.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-25, 07:54 PM
So that seems the to be the main issue: he got free reviving.
There is a higher level spell that works like reincarnate but no level loss, but it must be used within 1 rd of the death.

Really that houserule is far too generous.

What about the social issues of being a bugbear? I mean, are they trusted in town?
Varies depending on DM but usually commoners would be fearful of them unless Ebberon where they more common.

sonofzeal
2009-10-25, 08:05 PM
I may have missed it, but I just want to note...


....if he's polymorphing himself into a Hydra all day, he can't cast any other spells. Remember Natural Spell, the feat that every druid everywhere takes, to be able to cast spells in animal form? Yeah, he doesn't have that.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-25, 08:12 PM
I may have missed it, but I just want to note...


....if he's polymorphing himself into a Hydra all day, he can't cast any other spells. Remember Natural Spell, the feat that every druid everywhere takes, to be able to cast spells in animal form? Yeah, he doesn't have that.

Savage Species has a feat to let him cast. Called Surrogate Casting.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 08:17 PM
Really that houserule is far too generous.

Right. Any possible houserule can make things unbalanced. Ignoring level loss is a rather significant houserule, but you can't just blame that on the player, since that's apparently how they play. IMO, that seems like an issue for the DM.

Even if it's just physical stats...you lose your current racial bonuses first, as shown here:


First eliminate the subjectís racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores.

You'll note that the loss section says nothing about just loosing physical modifiers, so I have to assume it's all racial adjustments. Losing the racial attributes of your original race for a random new one could very well be negative.

As for gaining physical attributes, the SRD is a bit unclear about if it's physical only. So, I grabbed my Phb(it's 3.0, but it is quite a bit lengthier and more specific than the SRD). It specifies young adult for the age, so that's a bad thing for casters as well. The 3.0 version had a longer list of races, and also specified that if you changed into something without hands...no casting things with somatic components.

Really, it seems like a terribly risky thing to do for the 1/100 chance of getting a few physical boosts from hitting bugbear, and as mentioned by others, there will be all sorts of social problems from that.

Reincarnation is a dangerous spell that should be avoided unless there is no other way to bring someone back, not a fast track to power.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 08:26 PM
You'll note that the loss section says nothing about just loosing physical modifiers, so I have to assume it's all racial adjustments. Losing the racial attributes of your original race for a random new one could very well be negative.

As for gaining physical attributes, the SRD is a bit unclear about if it's physical only. So, I grabbed my Phb(it's 3.0, but it is quite a bit lengthier and more specific than the SRD). It specifies young adult for the age, so that's a bad thing for casters as well. The 3.0 version had a longer list of races, and also specified that if you changed into something without hands...no casting things with somatic components.

Really, it seems like a terribly risky thing to do for the 1/100 chance of getting a few physical boosts from hitting bugbear, and as mentioned by others, there will be all sorts of social problems from that.

Reincarnation is a dangerous spell that should be avoided unless there is no other way to bring someone back, not a fast track to power.

My apologies. I meant the physical Racial Adjustments.

And I believe the sentence on clearing the racial modifiers is a continuation of the previous sentence "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body.". And again the table only reflects physical racial adjustments.

I might be wrong, but I have not met a DM who ran it otherwise. But I guess the people here know best.

Steilos
2009-10-25, 08:27 PM
So, this is what I'm getting so far:
At the end of the campaign, the enemy behind all of the whatever happened (Something about threatening kobold villages? Are you sure that this was Level 15? Doesn't seem like something a guy designed to be a challenge at that level would stop at. (Of course, this is just a surmise from my incredibly limited knowledge of the campaign)) finally comes out and faces you. You all prepare yourself for a difficult fight, because you are unoptimised (Because you spent a heck of a lot more time on your description than your stats, which is hardly a crime) EXCEPT this wizard. He, as far as I can tell goes "Conversation? Roleplaying? Drama? Naaaaaah. Baleful Polymorph!"
a just wipes the floor with the boss and the subboss. And the mount. Now, there are technical and social issues with this:

Point one:
The BBE- main antangonist (TVTROPES NO) is undead, right? He has no Con, and therefore is immune to effects requiring a fortitude save. Baleful Plymorph requires a Fort save. Therefore, the DM should have noticed this, have the boss go "ahahaha no." and rip the silly little man's head off. Strike one against the DM, for a start.

Point two:
This alledgedly powergaming chap sounds like a well built and optimised transmuting kind of wizard. That's hardly powergame, although it's a bit unfair to the other players who get sidelined. What doesn't help is that he's a wizard, who, without going into specifics to avoid yet another wizard debate, gains a smeg of a lot out of optimisiation. I'm not saying it's the best class for that, he may well be, but again, not going into that. Should you lot try and create optimized characters, or should he take a eraser to his charsheet? Thing is, he may be proud of that character. Asking someone to rewrite or reamake a character is a big thing, because some people grow attached to their sheets, and may feel bossed about when you try to change it. To sum up, think this over. Optimizing three people or deoptimizing one are both big undertakings.

Point three:
If you are being offered a free revive into something with better physical stats with no mental penalties when you are dead, what are you gonna do? Can't blame this "powergamer" for being a human being and looking to get an advantage in a game when it's explicitly being allowed. This feller sounds like the type that likes to win or at least gain something, (Let's face it, we all do) and if it's not a crime, it's fair game, innit? Again, the DM should take a good long looks at his houserules here.

HOWEVER.

Point four:
Is this optimiser (for that is what he is) aware that he is breaking the rules? If he is, we're getting into more clear cut territory. Either ditch him right off or take him to task and try to hammer it out of him, through vigilant policing of the rule book. If he is not, simply keep a closer eye on the rule book, and make sure to put him right, like you might have a dedicated dictonary guy in a game of Scrabble. Basically, just check the rulebook more often. I'm not saying to go all rules-lawyer, just tighten things up a bit and block out any munchkining attempts.

As for the short term solution, I cannot stress this enough. Talk to the guy. In order to get a coherent outlook to base a decision off of, you need his angle on this too. I know it's been said before, but it's really important that you get that info. And while you're at it, rope the DM in too. S/he must take some of the blame for this. If there's one person who should be on top of the rules, it's the DM.

Apologies for that rant. I just got the typing bug and thought 'Hey, may as well try to make it at least a bit helpful to someone.' And yeah, there's a lot of stuff in that email that I didn't cover fully. Or the campaign itself. I guess I just looked at what I'd written, went 'holy...' and cut some of it out.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 08:29 PM
Even if that's the case, Pika, all the other things are overwhelming reasons why reincarnation is not a good thing.

Seriously, getting a +4 strength as a wizard isn't really that important. Yes, the bugbear is a slight boost, if you ignore the level loss. However, getting the stats of say, a kobold, is just as bad as bugbear is good. And kobold alone is four times more likely.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 08:30 PM
So, this is what I'm getting so far:
At the end of the campaign, the enemy behind all of the whatever happened (Something about threatening kobold villages? Are you sure that this was Level 15?

Not at the end. In the first 25ish minutes.

Level 12.

And the BBEG was trying to awaken something that would flood the lad with bad stuff (was not too clear on that). My character figured helping the good races also meant helping the Kobolds.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 08:32 PM
Even if that's the case, Pika, all the other things are overwhelming reasons why reincarnation is not a good thing.

Seriously, getting a +4 strength as a wizard isn't really that important. Yes, the bugbear is a slight boost, if you ignore the level loss. However, getting the stats of say, a kobold, is just as bad as bugbear is good. And kobold alone is four times more likely.

True.

I guess I mistakenly threw that in the list.

It's one of his "tricks", but in thinking about it it is not one of his tricks which makes him a killer.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 08:33 PM
Well, what makes him a killer then?

Steilos
2009-10-25, 08:39 PM
Not at the end. In the first 25ish minutes.

Level 12.

And the BBEG was trying to awaken something that would flood the lad with bad stuff (was not too clear on that). My character figured helping the good races also meant helping the Kobolds.

25 minutes... Yeah, you have a problem. Either it's the DM making his boss too weak or squishy to survive long anough to actually retreat (Cause he obviously gets away. I mean, it woukdn't be much of a campaign if the final battle was 25 minutes in.) Or, it's this optimised wizard just wrecking everything because optimised wizards have a habit of doing that. I'm not saying this alleged powergamer is totally blameless, far from it, but maybe you should approach this more calmly than your email suggests you are. I know it's frustrating to be totally sidelined by a guy who is playing almost a different game from you, and not a little bit annoying, and I'm not going to insult your maturity by saying it's only a game, but coming off as angry and immature will not do anything to help.

Wow, you could write an essay in this...

Pika...
2009-10-25, 08:39 PM
Well, what makes him a killer then?

If I knew the magic system better I could probably break down his build better and explain it.

Right now all I know is that he soloed the session in under thirty minutes., but in single full-round actions.


I recently heard that the DM ended up just photocoping the Big Baddy and tossing it again. (I wonder how many hits (if any) the other PC got in.)

Kylarra
2009-10-25, 08:43 PM
If I knew the magic system better I could probably break down his build better and explain it.

Right now all I know is that he soloed the session in under thirty minutes., but in single full-round actions. That's not really saying much though. An arcane thesis of any decent attack spell combined with a few choice metamagics could easily replicate one-shotting most unprepared BBEGs.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 08:43 PM
25 minutes... Yeah, you have a problem. Either it's the DM making his boss too weak or squishy to survive long anough to actually retreat (Cause he obviously gets away. I mean, it woukdn't be much of a campaign if the final battle was 25 minutes in.) Or, it's this optimised wizard just wrecking everything because optimised wizards have a habit of doing that. I'm not saying this alleged powergamer is totally blameless, far from it, but maybe you should approach this more calmly than your email suggests you are. I know it's frustrating to be totally sidelined by a guy who is playing almost a different game from you, and not a little bit annoying, and I'm not going to insult your maturity by saying it's only a game, but coming off as angry and immature will not do anything to help.

Wow, you could write an essay in this...


Thanks. I will try to.

But this player has some issues. Again, he also insists on playing everyones' PCs. And although somewhat likeable, me and two others alone agreed that while likeable at the same time he is an "ass" (not my words).

And we have a pretty big group at the moment. Anywhere from 5-12. Usually around 7-8. This is what the DM planned for (I assume). There were only three of us today due to location issues.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 08:45 PM
If the DM is seriously just photocopying bad guys....Im not at all surprised that they are getting one shotted.

I mean, seriously, once you know that you keep facing the same guy over and over again, and X worked fine last time....it's pretty tempting to just drop the same thing on him.

And save or dies tend to end encounters in one shot, when they work.

IMO, this looks more like the DM planned this out very poorly than it looks like it's the wizard's fault. For one thing, if you start the game with boss fights, the wizard doesn't have to manage spells carefully at all. For another, the DM not knowing the immunities of his own mobs, or, apparently, bothering to spend much effort on the campaign.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 08:48 PM
If the DM is seriously just photocopying bad guys....Im not at all surprised that they are getting one shotted.

I mean, seriously, once you know that you keep facing the same guy over and over again, and X worked fine last time....it's pretty tempting to just drop the same thing on him.

And save or dies tend to end encounters in one shot, when they work.

IMO, this looks more like the DM planned this out very poorly than it looks like it's the wizard's fault. For one thing, if you start the game with boss fights, the wizard doesn't have to manage spells carefully at all. For another, the DM not knowing the immunities of his own mobs, or, apparently, bothering to spend much effort on the campaign.


Well, I have to give him credit for at least thinking on his feats. I have had to as a DM when players throw my entire planned session out the window in the first hour or so. Then I need to keep it up all night.

And he had actually not rested since last session. The party was already working on this place. Hence why we were at subboss. Mooks were already gone.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-25, 08:48 PM
If the DM is seriously just photocopying bad guys....Im not at all surprised that they are getting one shotted.

I mean, seriously, once you know that you keep facing the same guy over and over again, and X worked fine last time....it's pretty tempting to just drop the same thing on him.

And save or dies tend to end encounters in one shot, when they work.

IMO, this looks more like the DM planned this out very poorly than it looks like it's the wizard's fault. For one thing, if you start the game with boss fights, the wizard doesn't have to manage spells carefully at all. For another, the DM not knowing the immunities of his own mobs, or, apparently, bothering to spend much effort on the campaign.


I believe what Pika is saying is that the Boss got one-shotted so badly he had to basically bring out the 'backup version' of the encounter, (ie, an exact copy of it) in the hopes of actually getting to run any of it.


A lot of people here seem intent to believe that anyone other than the player in question is to blame here...

Pika...
2009-10-25, 08:51 PM
I believe what Pika is saying is that the Boss got one-shotted so badly he had to basically bring out the 'backup version' of the encounter, (ie, an exact copy of it) in the hopes of actually getting to run any of it.

That is what I am assuming at least.


ps. And perhaps there is some blame left over to go around. I can admit that. The DM clearly needs to figure out how to deal with this, and I should cool down more and discuss it all with the group.

Kylarra
2009-10-25, 08:51 PM
Oh I totally believe he's being a jerk by trying to play other people's characters and that he's playing at a higher optimization level than the rest of the party. The question is, how much of this situation can be directly blamed on him, and how much is based on other circumstances.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-25, 08:52 PM
Oh I totally believe he's being a jerk by trying to play other people's characters and that he's playing at a higher optimization level than the rest of the party. The question is, how much of this situation can be directly blamed on him, and how much is based on other circumstances.

What about the fact that he almost certainly knew the spell/s he used/was using weren't actually possible to use that way?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 08:56 PM
What about the fact that he almost certainly knew the spell/s he used/was using weren't actually possible to use that way?

Did he know the boss was immune to PaO? I dunno. If he's deliberately doing things that he knows are illegal, that's a problem, but Im finding it difficult to know that for certain.

Regardless, he can certainly try to cast such a spell, and it's the DMs responsibility to know the immunities of his mob.


Playing other people's characters is definitely bad, yes. If it's frequent, talk to him about it. Sometimes people think they're being helpful, but don't realize how frustrating it is.

Kylarra
2009-10-25, 08:56 PM
What about the fact that he almost certainly knew the spell/s he used/was using weren't actually possible to use that way?Not gonna speculate on that one honestly. Pika has already admitted to minimal familiarity with the magic system and secondhand knowledge is only as good as the source.

Steilos
2009-10-25, 08:59 PM
A lot of people here seem intent to believe that anyone other than the player in question is to blame here...

Oh, he shoulders blame alright. If he's done this "powergaming" schtick before, with the same kind of characters, he should have a fairly decent idea of what wizards played that way can do. He knew what he was getting into when he took that option. What I'm saying here is that although he did break the rules, which automatically lays a decent measure of blame on him, he isn't the only one at fault.

Also, Pika, could you optimize your character and just ask the DM to up the difficulty? Optimisation and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, and if this fellow thinks that, you should inform him of the error of his ways next time you see him. If that's impossible (which from the sounds of it, it is due to the group size) then you may be forced to evict him from the group, or ask him to chane up his playstyle a bit.

I haven't touched the whole playing other characters thing, due to not wanting to type too much, but yeah, that's probably a big part of the annoyance right there. Better to nip it in the bud next time you meet up.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 09:11 PM
Also, Pika, could you optimize your character and just ask the DM to up the difficulty? Optimisation and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, and if this fellow thinks that, you should inform him of the error of his ways next time you see him. If that's impossible (which from the sounds of it, it is due to the group size) then you may be forced to evict him from the group, or ask him to chane up his playstyle a bit.

Yeah, I imagine the group size would be a big issue.

And a lot of these people are new, or less experienced players.

From what I have been told, and I am not sure that I doubt it, I could potentially get close to him optimizing wise. I spend enough time surfing these forums, reading mechanics, and simply enjoying the complexity of the 3.5 system to possibly do it. Although I do not know much about the magic system, I am pretty sure I could take his cookie-cutter renamed PC down on an arena match style game. Not so much because I know magic, but because I know him and his PC. However, I would not have been able to make my current PC if I had to optimize.





I haven't touched the whole playing other characters thing, due to not wanting to type too much, but yeah, that's probably a big part of the annoyance right there. Better to nip it in the bud next time you meet up.

Oh yeah, I have a claw/claw/bite routine with an average of 20 damage each + invisibility that will nip the issue in the bud if it does not stop. :smallbiggrin:

Pika...
2009-10-25, 09:15 PM
Oh yeah, and call me up Stephen when you read this.

I know you lurk my threads...

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 09:18 PM
However, I would not have been able to make my current PC if I had to optimize.

If you find yourself in this position, ping these boards for help. *any* concept can be optimized. Constraints and fluff just make the optimization fun. =)

Pika...
2009-10-25, 09:20 PM
If you find yourself in this position, ping these boards for help. *any* concept can be optimized. Constraints and fluff just make the optimization fun. =)

Many thanks.

If I need to resort to that I'll hit up the forums.

Though I might not be here long due to the new infraction/warning I got. :smallconfused:

Steilos
2009-10-25, 09:23 PM
Roland scrubbed your posts eariler and presumably warned you. I don't know what you said, but I guess I'd better extend what I said earlier about being calm to the thread itself. I've no doubt that you are by this point, just thought I'd let you know anyway.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 09:27 PM
Roland scrubbed your posts eariler and presumably warned you. I don't know what you said, but I guess I'd better extend what I said earlier about being calm to the thread itself. I've no doubt that you are by this point, just thought I'd let you know anyway.

Thanks for the info.

And yes, I am calm now.

Although, I will still be keeping tabs on the powergamer's/munchkin's actions, and looking up whatever material (feats, tiems, spells, etc) he mentions his PC has or used.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 09:48 PM
Hey, learning about the magic system is going to be helpful regardless. It's really easy for people to get in a bit of a rut with characters, simply due to knowing certain styles better than others.

Learning the casting system is definitely worthwhile, and it'll help you understand what's going on. Plus, if you ever DM, it's incredibly helpful.

Pika...
2009-10-25, 11:14 PM
Hey, learning about the magic system is going to be helpful regardless. It's really easy for people to get in a bit of a rut with characters, simply due to knowing certain styles better than others.

Learning the casting system is definitely worthwhile, and it'll help you understand what's going on. Plus, if you ever DM, it's incredibly helpful.

Well I understand enough to make a character. I just don't know enough to optimize one. I don't know the spells or feats, what books to find the best feats, what little tricks and loopholes people exploit, what items are the broken ones for them, etc.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 11:18 PM
It all starts with the spells, honestly. Learn the ones in core first, because frankly, they have a much higher ratio of overpowered/broken stuff than anywhere else. Once you've gotten familiar with them, Spell Compendium is a great book.

Items, feats, etc can definitely up the power curve of casters, but it starts with knowing the spells.

Heliomance
2009-10-26, 06:15 AM
I may have missed it, but I just want to note...


....if he's polymorphing himself into a Hydra all day, he can't cast any other spells. Remember Natural Spell, the feat that every druid everywhere takes, to be able to cast spells in animal form? Yeah, he doesn't have that.

Check the Polymorph text. Nothing in there about not being able to cast. Polymorph and Wildshape are not the same thing.