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Nostri
2009-10-24, 09:58 PM
I'm going to be running a D&D game for the first time in awhile (~2 years) and the intervening time has given me the opportunity to read through various gaming systems in search of something to run other then D&D next time. I finally settled on Pathfinder after playtesting and rejecting 4E for the feel I wanted to portray.

In that time I broke out my 2nd Edition AD&D books and got reminded of the various things that high ability scores used to give. Additionally I re-read the parts about where the various classes advanced at different rates.

My questions are this- If I were to reintroduce the various immunities and abilities that high stats gave how unbalancing would it be? Would it even truly be unbalancing or would it just be something cool to grant characters that put decent ability scores in abilities other then their primary scores? Also how would giving the different classes disparate XP progressions effect things? (I'd be giving the different class the Fast, Medium and Slow Progressions roughly according to how fast they advanced in 2nd Edition.)

I don't want to really throw the balance off for people but at the same time I remember liking being the only person at the table who leveled. On the same note I think having the truly wise cleric be immune to certain spell effects would be an interesting touch.

Solaris
2009-10-24, 10:08 PM
I can has already done the different progressions of XP.


Classes are broken up into three separate groups: Simple (Rogues, Sorcerers), Complex (Fighters, Paladins, Rangers), and Advanced (Wizards). A multiclass character, regardless of what classes he's in, advances in the Advanced class group. Thus, a berserker/rogue requires as much experience as a wizard of the same class levels to advance. A character cannot go down in level by multiclassing, just to put that out there. Note that even the simple group requires significantly more experience than the standard PHB classes to advance; this is a deliberate choice to slow character advancement.
If using this system, a level adjustment should be translated into a -5%/LA experience point penalty. Thus, an LA of +1 would be -5% experience points, while an LA of +3 would be -15% XP and an LA of -1 (such as the kobold's) would actually be a +5% bonus to experience points gained.

Simple Classes:
These classes require very little training to advance, and some get by with no actual training at all.
Training for the next level requires only 10 gp/level and a week of game time.

Experience
Points Level
0 1
1,500 2
4,500 3
9,000 4
15,000 5
22,500 6
31,500 7
42,000 8
54,000 9
67,500 10
82,500 11
99,000 12
117,000 13
136,500 14
157,500 15
180,000 16
204,000 17
229,500 18
256,500 19
285,000 20


Complex Classes:
These classes require an average amount of training to advance in.
Training for the next level requires 50 gp/level and two weeks of game time.

Experience
Points Level
0 1
2,000 2
6,000 3
12,000 4
20,000 5
30,000 6
42,000 7
56,000 8
72,000 9
90,000 10
110,00 11
132,000 12
156,000 13
172,000 14
200,000 15
230,000 16
262,000 17
294,000 18
330,000 19
368,000 20


Advanced Classes:
These are the classes that require a lot of training to advance in.
Training for the next level requires 100 gp/level and a month of game time.

Experience
Points Level
0 1
2,500 2
7,500 3
15,000 4
25,000 5
37,500 6
42,500 7
60,000 8
80,000 9
102,500 10
127,000 11
154,500 12
184,500 13
217,000 14
252,000 15
287,500 16
327,500 17
370,000 18
415,000 19
462,500 20

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-25, 12:21 AM
I don't know much of 2 ED, but I figured I'd mention that, with this set-up, the advanced/complex groups would actually sling-shot ahead in XP, due to how XP is gained from monsters. Lower level = moar XP. Experience is a river and all that noise. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872242/Experience_is_a_River)

Nostri
2009-10-25, 01:22 AM
Oh right, I forgot to mention that part. In 2nd Edition monsters had static xp awards, so an orc was worth 15 xp all the time no matter what level you are. In order for that to work out without screwing around with progression the way you said Thrice Dead Cat I'd have to assign all the monsters preset xp awards. I'd do this either by figuring out the xp gained by a level appropriate party for the monster or just straight up use the totals given in the 2E Monster Manual.

falconflicker
2009-10-25, 01:27 AM
DELETE THIS POST, I posted in the wrong thread

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-25, 01:37 AM
Oh right, I forgot to mention that part. In 2nd Edition monsters had static xp awards, so an orc was worth 15 xp all the time no matter what level you are. In order for that to work out without screwing around with progression the way you said Thrice Dead Cat I'd have to assign all the monsters preset xp awards. I'd do this either by figuring out the xp gained by a level appropriate party for the monster or just straight up use the totals given in the 2E Monster Manual.

If you're going for that set-up, check Unearthed Arcana: it has static XP for various CRs.

EDIT: I will say, however, that with the separate XP tracks, it can get to be a bit difficult to figure out what exactly to throw at the party. Levels (and money, let's be frank here) are power. If someone in the party is perpetually X levels behind, chances are, he won't contribute. And that makes for a poor game all around.

BSPiotr
2009-10-25, 01:43 AM
Let me make sure I understand what you're suggesting.

You want to run Pathfinder, use static XP, use different XP levels for different classes, and then grant them bonuses like spell immunity/regeneration/spells allowed to cast/X from 2nd Ed rules.

Alright... I'll be blunt... you might just want to run 2nd Edition at that point. It has a definite lethality to it, thats for sure, but you can always bump up HP (like max HP at first level) and allow -10 HP deaths (instead of 0 = death) and then simply use pathfinder feat/skillpoint/BAB/Saves progression/No Max Level Shenanigans.

I think that way might have less changes than what you're doing now.

AgentPaper
2009-10-25, 01:58 AM
You don't need static XP. Instead, find the average party level, and then dole out XP as if each member was that level.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 02:00 AM
In that time I broke out my 2nd Edition AD&D books and got reminded of the various things that high ability scores used to give. Additionally I re-read the parts about where the various classes advanced at different rates.

My questions are this- If I were to reintroduce the various immunities and abilities that high stats gave how unbalancing would it be? Would it even truly be unbalancing or would it just be something cool to grant characters that put decent ability scores in abilities other then their primary scores?

It's been a long time since I've played 2nd ed, to be honest. However, in 3.5, and presumably pathfinder as well, immunities can be quite powerful. Be very cautious that you don't accidentally set up crazy combos.

Elana
2009-10-25, 02:14 AM
Not to be totally ignorant here.
But I thought Pathfinder would already hand out static XPs.


For the balance issues.
I see no problem with the mage being a few levels behind the fighter.
It might actually mean that finally the fighter is allowed to pull his weight.
(Instead of being outpowered by everyone else at level 3)

What could be tricky is to find a fair way of multiclassing...unless you go the old AD&D way for that too.

mostlyharmful
2009-10-25, 04:15 AM
Don't go for static XP!!!!!! It's a mega trap that ends with your group refusing plot hooks so they can industrially farm boars and kill them, or some other damn aweful waste of time. The escalating challenge for similar amounts of reward as you level was one of the few useful ideas in the 3.5 leveling system... No more boar-grind:smallyuk:

Frog Dragon
2009-10-25, 04:20 AM
Who makes you use static XP? You can just.. yaknow... give them XP however you feel. I also did a system for this a while back. It doesn't even screw up 3.5 ed multiclassing. You might wan't to adjust some of those such as putting the bard into the medium line if you're going to use it.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105737

And yes, it's missing a fair load of classes, but you can just splant them wherever you want in the scales.

Nostri
2009-10-25, 02:26 PM
@Elana- If I remember correctly you're right that Pathfinder will give out static xp. But that's not until their version of the Monster Manual comes out and unfortunately even when it does I don't currently have the cash to get the thing, thus this solution.

@mostlyharmful- If my players decide to stay home and grind boars and refuse to do anything else I'll tell them to leave the table and go play WoW because obviously their not interested in the roleplay aspect of the game. Also as DM I'm the one that gives out the xp, if I think they've fought one too many boars I'll stop giving them xp for it. Or, you know, have a demon of some kind sneak and have them face a half-fiend dire boar or something...

taltamir
2009-10-25, 02:43 PM
Don't go for static XP!!!!!! It's a mega trap that ends with your group refusing plot hooks so they can industrially farm boars and kill them, or some other damn aweful waste of time. The escalating challenge for similar amounts of reward as you level was one of the few useful ideas in the 3.5 leveling system... No more boar-grind:smallyuk:

my current DM has a rule... "there is no XP"... he just tells us "you leveled" when he feels it is appropriate. It works very well

Crafting requires finding a unique formula to compensate for no XP cost (gp doesn't go up... although you could just increase gp instead of XP cost) and spells require a focus instead of XP cost which is appropriately priced.

It is important to remember that you do not get XP for killing things, you get XP for defeating encounters... a dying paralized dragon you coup de grace is a CR0 encounter and gives no XP. Defeating the BBEG you granted mercy to last week DOES allow you to get XP for him TWICE. A level 1 wizard with a scroll of gate is a higher CR encounter due to "unusual wealth / item for its level", etc etc.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-25, 03:25 PM
@mostlyharmful- If my players decide to stay home and grind boars and refuse to do anything else I'll tell them to leave the table and go play WoW because obviously their not interested in the roleplay aspect of the game. Also as DM I'm the one that gives out the xp, if I think they've fought one too many boars I'll stop giving them xp for it. Or, you know, have a demon of some kind sneak and have them face a half-fiend dire boar or something...

So, for the record, it would be pretty easy to roleplay a hunter. Sometimes it's boars, sometimes it's bears, you get the point. Static XP leads to things like that.

Nostri
2009-10-27, 03:33 AM
So, for the record, it would be pretty easy to roleplay a hunter. Sometimes it's boars, sometimes it's bears, you get the point. Static XP leads to things like that.

Things like what? A player making a character that goes out and hunts? Or one that does nothing but go out curb stop chickens? [insert other example of players going and killing randomly because they want xp]

If it's the second case I'd tell them the same thing that I'd tell a player who wanted to do this two things- 1) He should go play WoW [or another CRPG that s/he may find more enjoyable] and leave the rest of us to play D&D.
2) I'd have repercussions happen in the game world. Perhaps they've been poaching on the king's land so now there's a sheriff after him and his crew. Or maybe because he's been ignoring the plotline who ever or whatever was up to nastiness has just gotten a major power boost because the PCs weren't there to prevent him from getting the Big Bad McGuffin (tm). Or if they decided that deer weren't giving them enough xp and moved on to peasents or other NPCs there would be contingents of the army, knights maybe a war wizard or two...you get the idea.

I guess what I'm saying it yes it can cause problems. But as a player you shouldn't be xp farming. That's boring and stupid. At the very least you shouldn't be surprised when the DM tells you that strange metal rails have appeared under your feet and you hear the distant wail of a steam whistle....

JadedDM
2009-10-27, 05:52 PM
So, for the record, it would be pretty easy to roleplay a hunter. Sometimes it's boars, sometimes it's bears, you get the point. Static XP leads to things like that.

No. No, it doesn't. Unless your players are morons. 2E has static XP, I have played 2E for over 13 years, never once has such a scenario ever come up, even hypothetically.

Even if you were worried something like that might happen, I'll point out there's a rule in 2E that states you can't earn XP from something if it's no longer a challenge for you. For instance, a single goblin (15 XP) would not give any XP to a level 7 fighter who couldn't possibly lose the fight. There must be some risk of losing to earn XP. Therefore, killing boars over and over might earn XP at first, but once you got high enough level that they were no threat, you'd stop earning XP.