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dragonfan6490
2009-10-24, 10:29 PM
Howdy fellow Playgrounders,

I'm currently in the planning stages of a campaign, and I was considering dropping XP entirely, leveling up the party at the speed of plot.

My question is: how will this affect things with XP costs, such as Magic Item Creation and certain spells, such as Wish or Raise Dead. What should I do about these aspects of the game with regard to the players?

Grynning
2009-10-24, 10:34 PM
My groups often use this method, I hate the D&D exp system to tell the truth. It works really well for Star Wars Saga and 4th edition.

For 3.5, where it needs to be used as a quantifiable resource, you could give characters something like the Eberron Artficer's craft reserve, that's only used for powering those types of abilities. You'll have to fiddle with the math to get it right, but this could also cut down on the abuse of a lot of the high power spells (like Wish and Gate).

ericgrau
2009-10-24, 10:34 PM
Outside of xp costs, it's just a matter of making sure the treasure keeps up with their level. In regard to xp costs, I'd consider converting it to 5 gp per xp. Or write down the total xp the player has expended over his lifetime, consult the xp charts for leveling by the normal system, and fudge the time he needs to wait before leveling up. Note that by standard rules those who are behind get xp faster, so I'd erase old xp costs over the course of maybe 3 levels.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-10-24, 10:40 PM
Mutants and Masterminds doesn't really have a level up system besides "GM discretion". Really, XP exists so that characters can continue to grow stronger and you can measure that in such a way as to increase the challenges accordingly. Leveling up at the speed of plot seems fair enough, and if you want to slow it down or speed it up, just make sure you have the CRs to match.

Claudius Maximus
2009-10-24, 10:41 PM
I'm in a campaign like this. The DM just gives a certain amount of "extra" xp to be used for item creation and xp spells. The problem with this method is that xp expenditures will never threaten top level you down.

jiriku
2009-10-24, 11:17 PM
I have dispensed with XP like this in several campaigns. I just throw out the XP requirements for item creation altogether and tell the players not to abuse item creation or I'll get annoyed with them. I've never had any problems.

Mando Knight
2009-10-25, 12:11 AM
My groups often use this method, I hate the D&D exp system to tell the truth. It works really well for Star Wars Saga and 4th edition.

For 3.5, where it needs to be used as a quantifiable resource, you could give characters something like the Eberron Artficer's craft reserve, that's only used for powering those types of abilities. You'll have to fiddle with the math to get it right, but this could also cut down on the abuse of a lot of the high power spells (like Wish and Gate).

While I don't hate the system, I find it a bother to keep the XP count accurately up-to-date, so this is roughly what I do.

Mauril Everleaf
2009-10-25, 01:25 AM
I'm in the tenth week of a weekly campaign. This is the first time that our group has foregone XP. We are using the new Pathfinder rules (not that it makes a huge difference). We have loved not having to bother with XP totals and just level up after every adventure or so. An adventure runs two to four weeks then we all level up together.

The only time XP comes into the equation is when the DM is setting up each adventure. We have suggested that whoever is running should calculate XP totals for all the combats and quests and whatevers that he expects the players to run into and make sure that it's close enough to move us from level X to level X+1.

We expect that when we get to mid levels (we are sitting at level 4 right now) that we will not level each adventure, unless they are especially epic, and that we definitely won't level every adventure past around level 12 or so.

As for crafting, I am the only one who has bothered with crafting feats and skills and we have ruled that there is no XP cost for crafting, but that items are simply crafted at 3/4 cost rather than 1/2 cost.

We haven't come to the point where spells cost XP yet, so I've no idea how we plan to handle that.

Seatbelt
2009-10-25, 01:28 AM
I played a campaign where we leveled every session. DM just didn't bother with XP. Was quite fun if a bit insane by the end.

Grynning
2009-10-25, 01:30 AM
We haven't come to the point where spells cost XP yet, so I've no idea how we plan to handle that.

I just thought of a little house rule that could work - spells that normally cost XP could just impose a temporary debuff, like a negative level that doesn't ever result in actual level loss. This gives them a drawback without having to muck about with too many numbers. I don't know how Pathfinder modified the spells, but for straight 3.5 some of the more potent spells should probably have harsher penalties, like 2 or 3 negative levels (this is assuming you don't outright ban things like Wish, Gate, Miracle, etc, which is what I would do :smalltongue:)

root9125
2009-10-25, 01:37 AM
I am presently in a campaign where fighters lose BAB and casters lose spell slots by DM discretion in place of XP. We level at the speed of "okay, think that's good enough". Almost always at the end of an impressive battle. It works well enough, if a bit abused.

For instance, I just returned from a campaign in which my character, using cooperative spell with a bunch of Mages of the Arcane Order, raised his caster level enough to be able to work with his cohort who had Craft Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous to create a replacement arm for a character who had lost his. The arm was also a continuous item of fireball at CL 9. The arm was also-also sentient, with hold person 3/day and detect magic at will. Indeed, the player's character has since died, and he is now playing the arm, with a move speed of 10 ft (x2). So, to the OP, if you aren't willing to put up with shenanigans (this normally would have cost all those involved ~3000 XP, but ended up costing a week of resting time, which is not so bad since we have a stronghold / fortress), play with XP or regulate your players. If you like creativity and bizarre-ness, eschew it entirely! :smallbiggrin:

Kris Strife
2009-10-25, 01:47 AM
I played a campaign where we leveled every session. DM just didn't bother with XP. Was quite fun if a bit insane by the end.

I ran a campaign where my players leveled every session... But thats cause I didn't know to divide the XP total by the number of people in the group. :smallredface:

DarthNefarian
2009-10-25, 12:56 PM
I ran a campaign where my players leveled every session... But thats cause I didn't know to divide the XP total by the number of people in the group. :smallredface:

Ha ha, same happens to me when we played 3ed for the fist time. Luckily i had a friend who explained xp system to me.
For no XP game that is fine by me, CR and XP system sucks in 3.x anyway.

Dr Bwaa
2009-10-25, 01:46 PM
This is a perfectly reasonable system, like everyone else here seems to have said :smalltongue: The trick, as you said, is getting XP costs to work right. If you decide to change it to a gold cost, I definitely suggest 1xp = 25gp; otherwise "xp" is just too cheap (1=25 being based on the magic item crafting rules). Personally, I prefer something like the artificer craft pool; though I would definitely allow it to carry over from level to level, since you probably can't even use it at levels 1-2, and later it's nice to be able to craft more than one item per level. For example, say you get 20 craft xp at level 1, and 40 at level two. If you didn't spend any of your level 1 xp, when you reached level two you'd simply add 40 craft xp to what you had left over. This gives you more options at higher levels, as well as gets rid of my least favorite part of the artificer class, which is the wierd metagame incentive to squeeze everything you can out of your craft reserve once you think you'll be leveling up soon (picture justifying that in-game :smalltongue:)

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-25, 01:50 PM
We have never used XP, and frankly I'm regretting it. After 6 years of play, the biggest issue in our group is simply death. If a character dies in a midlevel game and gets raised, do they lose a level? Do they regain levels faster than other players? Is this fair if it wasn't the player's fault (did the party abandon the only non-caster during the BBEG fight using a bunch of self-teleport/invisibility/fly type spells?). When XP isn't tracked, everyone levels equally. When that happens, after a while, all players expect to stay on equal footing in terms of level. While this is ideally good, it leads to particular off-balancing factors later down the road.

Personally, I'd love to try a campaign where people of higher effectiveness get less experience simply to try to balance the party. I've, as a player, asked my GM to "not level me" since I out damage the rest of the damage dealers in the party to such a significant degree and I feel I'm isolating myself (even when I just nerf myself in game and limit my attacks per round; I'm using Shadow Pounce, fyi).

BRC
2009-10-25, 01:52 PM
This is what I do, more out of lazyness than anything. It's worked out pretty well for us so far, but it mainly relies on the players not doing things that have XP costs.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-10-25, 01:56 PM
I almost never use xp. For things that require an xp cost I make it a time requirement. for crafting you need 8/hours a day a certain number of days ANYWAY i just add a little extra on top. for spells. its usually an couple days of in depth meditation where the caster cant travel and need the party to help them focus the magical energies or somthing like that.

this only works cause my games usually have an agenda and they dont want to fall to far behind or bad stuff happens. gives them a reason to keep moving or working and only stop for important stuff.

Rhiannon87
2009-10-25, 01:57 PM
All the games we're currently running don't bother with XP. We deal with things that have an XP cost (spells or magic items or whatever) by using the buying-a-spell-with-XP-cost-conversion: 5 gp per XP needed. So it ends up being pricey to make magic items, but we don't have many crafters anyway, so it's not a huge deal. One of our players is planning on starting a steampunk game where there will be some crafting, and he swears he's going to keep track of XP. We'll see how that goes.

Rixx
2009-10-25, 04:40 PM
Pathfinder dispenses with EXP costs for items and spells and replaces them with material costs - not saying that switching over to Pathfinder entirely is necessary, but you could use the Pathfinder versions of these spells and mechanics pretty easily.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-25, 05:03 PM
I level my group every session because we try to go 1-20 each semester (or 3-20 in this case), so each DM in our group can run a game. Instead of using XP costs, for every 500XP or fraction thereof which would be spent a character ages 1 year. It hearkens back to 2e, it divorces things from the XP system, and since you can't resurrect someone who died of old age and it's difficult to extend your lifespan, it's a tangible loss.

Creatures who are immortal or who don't age start taking penalties from the metaphysical stresses after aging too much, so being an elan or a lich isn't a one-way ticket to ultimate power.

holywhippet
2009-10-25, 05:10 PM
Our DM uses an across the board XP value for players. Doesn't matter what any individual does - everyone gets all XP evenly. For a system like that, if a player spent 100XP on item creation they could just note that their total XP is 100 less than everyone elses.

sdream
2009-10-25, 05:32 PM
We track XP in our family games, just to keep a good idea how fast we should be leveling, but we don;t want people falling behind, or permanently damaging characters.

Things that cost XP give negative levels, which persist for a while.

things that cause level drain or permanent damage also just give negative levels for a while.

Choco
2009-10-25, 05:35 PM
When it comes to spells, I either age the PC's a certain amount, or I just have the spell have a GP cost as if they were buying it from an NPC caster.

AmberVael
2009-10-25, 05:39 PM
I just thought of a little house rule that could work - spells that normally cost XP could just impose a temporary debuff, like a negative level that doesn't ever result in actual level loss. This gives them a drawback without having to muck about with too many numbers. I don't know how Pathfinder modified the spells, but for straight 3.5 some of the more potent spells should probably have harsher penalties, like 2 or 3 negative levels (this is assuming you don't outright ban things like Wish, Gate, Miracle, etc, which is what I would do :smalltongue:)

Experience Buffer (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Experience_Buffer)

That's the general idea you're thinking of, yes?

I highly recommend Experience Buffer. Now, if you're not using experience at all, you can either just eyeball how long it takes to actually regain it, or track XP just for the buffer.

Gorbash
2009-10-25, 06:17 PM
I used that method early in my campaign, and here's my thoughts:

Players don't like it. They love to know how much XP they earned rather then your word that they will get the level on next session.

They won't bother with random encounter since they don't get much out of them, since they level up with the story anyway.

While it makes your work easier, it will make it hell once XP cost on spells and items kicks in. At first it will be easy, since you can just say that whoever lost XP will get the level one session later. But once that starts accumulating you don't really have a system to make it work and you'll have either too strong or too weak characters...

If you really want to stick with it, then getting levels # of sessions later is the only way to go, but I suggest otherwise, for your players sake and for yours, later on.

Ozymandias9
2009-10-26, 12:05 AM
Howdy fellow Playgrounders,

I'm currently in the planning stages of a campaign, and I was considering dropping XP entirely, leveling up the party at the speed of plot.

My question is: how will this affect things with XP costs, such as Magic Item Creation and certain spells, such as Wish or Raise Dead. What should I do about these aspects of the game with regard to the players?

There's a variant somewhere called "power components" (probably the DMG) for replacing XP costs/and or costly components with exceptionally rare components, which may not be available at all in a regular market. The suggested market price where they exist is 10 to 20 times the XP cost IIRC.

The real idea of this is that it makes casting certain spells or creating certain items a side quest. Need to resurrect the party member? You'll need to get to the waterfall where the cleric's god was reborn. Need to make a +5 sword? You'll need to protect the forger while they make it on the elemental plane of fire. You get the idea.

oxinabox
2009-10-26, 12:56 AM
I don't use XP.

I just tell the party to leval when appropriate.
In my current setting spell that cost XP are nonexistant. (a lot of spells don't exist, incuding mending and create water)

In my oldsetting, they can pay with gold

valadil
2009-10-26, 09:50 AM
I've never used XP. I've always wondered what to do about crafting and raising too, but I've never had a crafter or a cleric.

Actually crafting would probably take care of itself. My games don't give the PCs a lot of free time. If they got a free week I'd probably just let the crafter ignore the XP cost. It's not like he has time to make a lot of gear.

Raise dead is a trickier issue. I don't like raise dead to begin with so I wouldn't give it to them for free. I'd probably make the party earn the raise dead and consider that effort to be the XP cost.

What I find to be a bigger issue is rewards. I like telling the PCs when they do a good job. Or singling out when someone roleplays well. I solved this by ripping off fate chips from deadlands. The way I implement fate chips is that I give them out when appropriate (though each player is capped at 4 chips - this encourages them to spend instead of hording). They can be spent to fudge the dice in their character's favor, as appropriate to the character. It wouldn't let a scholar beat up thugs but it would keep a knight from falling off his horse.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-10-26, 09:50 AM
When I DM its large, high powered campaigns. I am forced to NOT use xp for battles. It is given in increments upon the party completing their goals (Rp is expected).

Why do this? Because the battles are ALL too hard to have XP gains! So that party of 8 ECL3's will fight say, a CR11. :smallbiggrin:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-26, 01:20 PM
When I DM its large, high powered campaigns. I am forced to NOT use xp for battles. It is given in increments upon the party completing their goals (Rp is expected).

Why do this? Because the battles are ALL too hard to have XP gains! So that party of 8 ECL3's will fight say, a CR11. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, that's partly why I use the system I do as well. For instance, in the last session, my party of 8 gestalt 9th level characters was attacking an army detachment consisting of 6 platinum clockwork horrors, 18 melee-focused 4th level fighter//barbarians, 10 ranged-focused 4th level scout//rangers, and 2 heavily templated ocean giants. By the CR system the classed NPCs alone would be too high of a CR to give any XP, yet it was a challenging but winnable fight for my party thanks to party cohesion and tactics.

Tyrmatt
2009-10-26, 02:29 PM
I run a GURPS game where the players might only receive a few points per game, between 3 and 5. This means at the very most, it takes two sessions for them to afford even basic abilities and the earth-shattering ones (that aren't banned because of setting. GURPS loves it's psionics way way too much) which cost 50+ points are something they have to save for. Plus they have to consider whether they spend this on new advantages or buy off the old disadvantages they took in order to afford a good mix of starter skills. In order to paraphrase this into D&D, I suggest the following:

Keep a little tally from 1 to 5 for each player. When a player does something exceptional in combat or social situation, give them 1 tally. When they reach five tallys, grant them access to a new ability. When the party completes a given quest, give them each a tally. If they want to make a powerful item or bring someone back from the dead, ask them to give up a tally to do it. This way, you only ever have to know one number between 1 and 5 for any member of the party. Easy to draw at the top of a character sheet. Still an XP system, but greatly simplified.

DeathQuaker
2009-10-26, 02:51 PM
I've done this in my group for awhile now, which has worked fine for my group. Before I switched to Pathfinder (which as mentioned gets rid of XP costs and replaces them with material costs) I tended to require extra materials and or required a quest to find a special material for the magic item/spell. After all, I think the "fluff" idea behind the XP cost was that you spent time out of your life to gather together the materials or whatever it was you needed to make the item, so I just made it require more roleplay effort and less mechanical costs. Mind, this doesn't always work well if you don't have time for a sidequest. And since Pathfinder is out and you can read its SRD for free, I'd at least take a gander to see how they do it and see if you'd like to houserule that part of it into your game.

Mind, I do ROUGHLY track how much XP the party earns over time, but I track it rather than have the characters do it, and then tell them when they've leveled. Even if I gave out XP, I would give everyone equal amounts anyway, as I find it a headache as a DM to deal with a group that has varying class levels. If one player really stands out with roleplaying or something I reward them in other ways (in-game information, magic items, etc.).