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View Full Version : Biq the Useless Fighter/Thrower [3.5]



minchazo
2009-10-24, 10:42 PM
This started out as me being silly, but I'm actually getting serious about this guy. The Targetteer is a fighter variant from Dragon magazine that gets EWP with two ranged weapons. It also uses the Fighter ACF "Hit & Run Tactics" from Drow of the Underdark.

He's currently a Halfling Targetteer 14/Master Thrower 5/Nightsong Enforcer 1

1 Targetteer1 [Point Blank Shot] [Weapon Focus(skiprock or shuriken)] [Free:EWP shuriken or skiprock] [Precise Shot] [Rapid Shot] [ACF: Hit & Run Tactics] [2 flaws]
2 Targetteer2 [Brutal Throw]
3 Targetteer3 [Agile Athlete]
4 Targetteer4 [Weapon Specialization (shuriken or skiprock)]
5 Targetteer5
6 Master Thrower1 [Free: Quickdraw] [GiantBane]
7 Master Thrower2
8 Master Thrower3
9 Master Thrower4 [Ranged Weapon Mastery]
10 Master Thrower5
11 Targetteer6 [Power Throw]
12 Targetteer7 [Confound the Big Folk]
13 Targetteer8 [Woodland Archer]
14 Targetteer9
15 Targetteer10 [TWF] [Underfoot Combat]
16 Targetteer11
17 Targetteer12 [Improved TWF]
18 Nightsong Infiltrator1 [Craven]
19 Targetteer13
20 Targetteer14 [Greater TWF]


Full BAB, can use Power Throw with Master Thrower's Weak Shot.

He should have 9 attacks (4 BAB, +2 Rapid Shot, +3 TWF), doubled with Palm Throw.

The big negative is the damage he does: (1 shuriken, +20 Power Throw, +2 Weapon Spec, +2 Ranged Weapon Mastery) = 25 damage. This is comparable to a 7d6 sneak attack. If the opponent is within 30 feet and flat footed, he can add his Dex + 1d6 sneak attack (thanks to Agile Fighter & Nightsong Infiltrator). With a Dex of 30, that would mean an extra 10 damage per attack, with Counfound the Big Folk making all enemies flat footed if he enters their square (well, almost all enemies).

He would use shuriken or skiprocks, casting GMW and Flame Arrow from items to change MW shuriken into +5 Flaming shuriken. Otherwise, he'd get various shuriken for 'special occasions.'

I'm looking for more ways to boost his damage. Person_Man's [3.x] X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) is really neat, but it doesn't help this build unless a shuriken/skiprock is considered a "light weapon" for purposes of Weapon Finesse.

Quite frankly, there's gotta be a better way to deal damage on a touch attack than a lotta fighter feats. I'm actually considering flaws to get Greater Weapon Spec (shuriken)! This whole build/idea just makes me giggle. It scares my friends when I giggle like this :smalltongue:.

Edit: Now needs 2 flaws. Removed Improved Precise shot, added feats: giantbane, craven, agile athlete. Corrected fighter ACF name.

ericgrau
2009-10-24, 11:01 PM
I know it's all touch attacks, but what's his total attack bonus?

Signmaker
2009-10-24, 11:08 PM
Dragonfire Inspiration, perhaps? Seems like you have room to incorporate it..

minchazo
2009-10-24, 11:09 PM
Lessee, assuming his entire BAB is used in Power Throw:

Dex, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Ranged Weapon Mastery, -2 Rapid shot, -2 TWF, +1 MW weapon, +1 Halfling, +1 small, for a total (assuming a Dex of 30 minimum):

12 :smalltongue:

Edit: Forgot it was a halfling!

tonberrian
2009-10-24, 11:16 PM
First things first - you don't have a way to return skiprocks to you, so they're right out. Woodland Archer does very little for you, and Confound the Big Folk is only marginally useful unless you go into melee range - doesn't synergise well with ranged attacks. I don't recognize Underfoot Fighting - if you mean Underfoot Combat from Races of the Wild, it has similar limitations. You can prevent AoO's with an ability from Master Thrower, but choosing a different one and staying out of melee range would probably be better for your health.

Consider dropping 6 levels of Targeteer, picking up Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4, switching your weapon of choice to a Boomerang (Xen'drik or Talenta), picking up Boomerang Daze from Races of Eberron, and choosing one of your Master Thrower abilities as Trip Shot. Now, every attack you make has a DC ~30 Fort save vs. Daze (very good status to inflict) and is a trip attempt as well. Your damage is small, but that's not so bad when your opponents can't actually do anything to you.

ericgrau
2009-10-24, 11:22 PM
Lessee, assuming his entire BAB is used in Power Throw:

Dex, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 Ranged Weapon Mastery, -2 Rapid shot, -2 TWF, +1 MW weapon, for a total (assuming a Dex of 30 minimum):

10 :smalltongue:

The advantage of that is that most CR 20 creatures don't have a touch AC much higher than most CR 10 creatures. The disadvantage is that most CR 10 creatures don't have a touch AC much lower than most CR 20 creatures.

minchazo
2009-10-24, 11:42 PM
First things first - you don't have a way to return skiprocks to you, so they're right out. Woodland Archer does very little for you, and Confound the Big Folk is only marginally useful unless you go into melee range - doesn't synergise well with ranged attacks. I don't recognize Underfoot Fighting - if you mean Underfoot Combat from Races of the Wild, it has similar limitations. You can prevent AoO's with an ability from Master Thrower, but choosing a different one and staying out of melee range would probably be better for your health.

You're correct: Underfoot Combat. I'll fix that now.
Why would I want skiprocks to return? They're considered ammunition.
Woodland Archer is strictly for people with total concealment, but it kinda steps on the toes of Improved Precise Shot. I should probably take one or the other, not both.
To be honest, I've always had a soft spot for Confound the Big Folk. I'll re-look at it. While I'd try to keep my distance, a halfling can't run very fast and people would catch him. I thought it amusing that the worst place to be (damage & AC-wise) is in the same square as a thrower.



Consider dropping 6 levels of Targeteer, picking up Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4, switching your weapon of choice to a Boomerang (Xen'drik or Talenta), picking up Boomerang Daze from Races of Eberron, and choosing one of your Master Thrower abilities as Trip Shot. Now, every attack you make has a DC ~30 Fort save vs. Daze (very good status to inflict) and is a trip attempt as well. Your damage is small, but that's not so bad when your opponents can't actually do anything to you.

I looked at Bloodstorm Blade 4, but I would need 4 weapons to pull it off, using TWF & Palm Throw. The benefit of using a weapon that's considered ammo is that the cost is spread out over a long period of time. I can be more versatile by buying only +2 or +3 ammo, especially if I can get an item to cast GMW 3/day (I need to price one). Also, Palm Throw only works with daggers, darts, or shuriken. I'm hedging that I can get skiprocks allowed since they're very similar to shuriken.
Trip Shot is 100% on my list to pick up. Free trip at range, using Dex? Yes please!

Now what I would do with Bloodstorm Blade is to get Ranged Weapon Mastery (Bludgeon & Piercing) to get 50' range increments and throw morningstars :)

minchazo
2009-10-24, 11:46 PM
The advantage of that is that most CR 20 creatures don't have a touch AC much higher than most CR 10 creatures. The disadvantage is that most CR 10 creatures don't have a touch AC much lower than most CR 20 creatures.

Thanks for pointing that out. Hmm... That means he won't be able to drop his entire BAB into Power Throw, which means he needs extra damage some other way. It's not looking to good for him, but what can I say? He's a fighter! NOTHING looks good for him :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-25, 01:35 AM
Bloodstorm Blade 4 gives you Ricochet Shot, which basically gives everything you throw the Returning property, only better because you can make full attacks with the same two weapons.

You need more damage to stack on. Look at Craven feat for HD to Damage, then with Master Thrower, get Sneak Shot for making opponents flat-footed, as well as Chink in the Armor for touch attacks. Then dip a couple of levels in some classes that get +1d6 Sneak Attack. Maybe a dip at the right time for Swordsage to get Assassin's Stance, and Shadow Blade for Dex to Damage.

ericgrau
2009-10-25, 02:17 AM
Thanks for pointing that out. Hmm... That means he won't be able to drop his entire BAB into Power Throw, which means he needs extra damage some other way. It's not looking to good for him, but what can I say? He's a fighter! NOTHING looks good for him :smallbiggrin:

Well I'd shoot for around 11-12 AB regardless of level whenever fighting anything medium sized or smaller. You don't give up much for that on levels 15-20. It's early on that gets you. Anything gigantic is easy at almost any level. Sneak attack or something similar might be better than power throw for your extra damage.

Doing it the fighter way your flame arrow and GMW bonus damage seems fine. Various kinds of bane shurikens could help too.

minchazo
2009-10-25, 07:59 AM
Bloodstorm Blade 4 gives you Ricochet Shot, which basically gives everything you throw the Returning property, only better because you can make full attacks with the same two weapons.

You need more damage to stack on. Look at Craven feat for HD to Damage, then with Master Thrower, get Sneak Shot for making opponents flat-footed, as well as Chink in the Armor for touch attacks. Then dip a couple of levels in some classes that get +1d6 Sneak Attack. Maybe a dip at the right time for Swordsage to get Assassin's Stance, and Shadow Blade for Dex to Damage.

Craven looks really good, especially since I'm already getting 1d6 sneak attack :smallbiggrin:

Sneak Shot and Chink in the armor both require standard actions. That drops my number of attacks down from 18 per round to only 1-4 (depending readjusting feats). Weak Spot already gives me touch attacks, but Shadow Blade won't stack with Weak Spot.

Indon
2009-10-25, 08:25 AM
There's a Soulmeld, Sighting Gloves, which grants +1 to damage with ranged weapons, and +1 additional damage per point of invested Essentia.

Unfortunately, unless you want to spend a feat (and up to 4 more feats to get the Essentia to power a full +5 damage bonus), your choices for getting the soulmeld are limited to a one-level dip in Incarnate (1/2 BAB bonus), or a four-level dip in Soulborn (which still doesn't give you any Essentia)... or...

You could be a Skarn, take 4 levels in Spinemeld Warrior, and that'll grant you 1 Soulmeld you could use for Sighting Gloves, 3 Essentia (+1 for being a Skarn for 4), full BAB, and the first level of the class grants you a Two-Weapon Fighting feat for free, for which you don't have to meet the prereqs (So you could grab Improved or Greater TWF before your BAB reached that point).

Okay, maybe Incarnum's not really helpful for this build!

oxinabox
2009-10-25, 09:21 AM
I like this build, Alot.
It's really nice, as it is...

I'm a fan of Woodland Archer, I just really like it.
So out of my 5 shots per round if one misses i get +4 to hit with the Rest? Ok!

minchazo
2009-10-30, 03:29 PM
I haven't been able to get back here for a while. They blocked giantitp at work. :smallannoyed: I made a couple adjustments to the initial build.

@indon:
Thanks for looking! I don't know anything about incarnum, so it's good to know I didn't miss anything.

@oxinabox:
Unfortunately, you can only use that aspect of Woodland Archer with a projectile weapon. I'll be using the 2nd ability of the feat to ignore Total Concealment!

As for his damage now, assuming +5 GMW & Flame Arrow cast on skiprocks:
At the limit of his range (165'): 1d3 (tiny skiprock) +10 (Power Throw) +2 (Weap Spec) +2 (Range Weap Mast) +5 (GMW) +1d6 (Flame Arrow) = 24.5 avg damage.
Within 30' on flat-footed opponent: 1d3 (tiny skiprock) +20 (Power Throw) +2 (Weap Spec) +2 (Range Weap Mast) +5 (GMW) +1d6 (Flame Arrow) +1d6 (SA) +20 (Craven) +10 (Dex) = 70 avg damage.

So that's 70 avg damage per hit if he's flat-footed. If it's a rogue, I lose the craven & sneak attack, but I still get to add Dex from Fighter ACF 'Hit and Run Tactics'. I intend to keep him flat-footed by climbing on his back if he's Medium sized or larger. Every one of my 18 attacks that hits will force a save or die from massive damage :smallbiggrin: