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Psyborg
2009-10-25, 01:30 AM
I'm trying for the absolute maximum possible range. Have I missed anything?

(Ironically, four levels of fighter for Ranged Weapon Mastery (+20') and ten levels of Deepwood Sniper (+10'/level) turned out to be comparatively poor choices, as increased manifester level for Psychic Warrior allows for +100% per four manifester levels over first. Yay for psionics.)

Build:
Goliath (LA +1, bought off)
Psychic Warrior 15 / Deepwood Sniper 2 / Cragtop Archer 3

Feats:
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)
1PW: Point-Blank Shot
2PW: Weapon Focus (Greatbow)
3: Item Familiar
5PW: Far Shot
6: Mountain Warrior
8PW: Overchannel
9: Practiced Manifester
11PW: Psicrystal Affinity
12: Talented
14PW: Fell Shot
15: Midnight Augmentation
18: Zen Archery

Stats: Start with Elite Array, 17/16/15/14/13/12
Str: 20 (+5) (16 start + 4 racial)
Dex: 11 (+0) (13 start - 2 racial)
Con: 18 (+4) (15 start + 2 racial + 1 levels)
Int: 14 (+2)
Wis: 32 (+11) (17 start + 4 levels + 5 tome + 6 item)
Cha: 12 (+1)

Manifester Level Boosters:
Practiced Manifester: Increases manifester level by 4, up to maximum of HD.
Overchannel + Talented: Increase ML by 3. Take 5d8 damage. For 3rd level or lower powers, expend focus & take no damage.
Orange Ioun Stone: (Magic/Psi transparency) Increases manifester level by 1.
Harmonic Chorus, from a wand or item, used by psicrystal: +2
TOTAL: ML 25

Midnight Augmentation, 1 essentia: Reduces augmentation cost for Extend Range from 4 to 3.

Relevant Psionic Powers:
Expansion: Level 1. Augmented Cost: 7 pp. Augmented effect: You and your equipment increase by two size increments. +4 Str, -4 Dex, -2 Attack, -2 AC. Duration 1 minute per level: 26 minutes.

Extend Range (with Midnight Augmentation, augmented 8 times): Augmented Cost: 25 pp. Augmented effect: Increase range increment of weapon touched by 900%. Duration: 10 minutes/level: 260 minutes = 4 hours 20 minutes.

Notes on Skills:
Max out Spot and Use Magic Device. Need Climb 10, Survival 5. Otherwise, it doesn't really matter. Put all skill points from level 3 on in the item Familiar. I'm not calculating the exact number of skill points, but I'll assume that we can get 10 ranks of UMD (cross-class skill, blegh) and 23 ranks of Spot with a +23 Item Familiar bonus to the latter. Choose the Observant psicrystal personality (+3 Spot), and don't forget that it also confers Alertness (+2 Spot and Search).
Final Spot modifier: +79 (11 Wis, 23 ranks, +23 item familiar, +3 Observant crystal, +2 Alertness, +2 masterwork tool, +5 Hawkeye, +10 Third Eye Aware)

Wondrous Items: Most of these are custom continuous spell items priced by DMG standard.

Headband of Continuous Hawkeye (1st-level spell, caster level 1st, duration measured in 10 minutes/level) 3,000GP (+5 Spot, range increments x1.5)

Bracers of Continuous Accuracy (1st-level spell, caster level 1st, duration measured in 10-minutes/level, use-activated, condition: touching a ranged projectile weapon) 3,000GP (double range increment of weapon touched for 10 minutes)

Amulet of Wisdom +6

Miniature Lute of Harmonic Chorus (2nd-level spell, caster level 3rd, duration measured in rounds, slotless, use-activated, condition: NOT in a bag) 72,000gp (Grants bearer +2 morale bonus to caster level, spell save DCs- transparency means this applies to manifester level too)

Weapon
Large +1 Distance Dragonbone Composite Greatbow

Now, the juicy part: Here's how we actually get range boosted to insane levels:

130' Medium Composite Greatbows start here.
x25% Large weapon (thanks, Powerful Build)
x25% Huge weapon (thanks, Expansion)
x25% Gargantuan weapon (yes, a Huge Goliath can wield a Gargantuan weapon)
254' Total so far
+20' Dragonbone bows get +20' range increment. Since this is a non-magical property of the bow, I believe that it is multiplied, unlike the bonus from Deepwood Sniper.
274' Total so far

Now, multipliers. I've rephrased them all as +X% instead of xN (f'rex, x2 becomes +100%. x1.5 becomes +50%) because that way it's easier to make sense of the multiplier stacking rules.
+50% Far shot
+100% Distance enchant
+50% Hawkeye spell
+100% Accuracy spell
+900% Extend Range psionic power, augmented 8 times.
+25% Flight arrows (Dragon magazine 349, pg.22, or crystalkeep (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Equipment.pdf))
+1225% TOTAL

274 + (12.25 * 274) = 3630'

3,630' Total range increment so far
+20' Deepwood Sniper 2 (Just that last little smidge, huh?)
3,650' Final total range increment.

Cragtop Archers can fire out to 15 range increments.
15 * 3,650' = 54,750'
That's 10.37 miles.
Or, given a playing grid with 1" squares representing 5' each, a 912'6" long grid.
A Wizard with Enlarge Spell would require caster level 675 to get his Fireball that far.

If we allow a bow version of the Gnomish Crossbow Sight (A&EG, treat all targets as if two range increments closer), then we can potentially fire out to 17 range increments, which is:
17 * 3,650 = 62,050'
Which is 11.75 miles, or a 1034'2" playing grid.
For the above-mentioned Wizard, that's not Fireball range until caster level 766.

Now, on the issue of actually seeing anything to shoot at from that far away:
The character has a +79 Spot modifier, and per the Cragtop Archer class feature, only takes a -1 per 20' to Spot checks.
At 54,750', however, the character is still making Spot checks at -2,658. So you have no chance of seeing anything at that distance without scrying magic. (Note, however, that according to RAW, Spot checks are not required to see creatures that are not Hiding, invisible, or otherwise "difficult to see". Note also that being ten miles away probably makes you difficult to see. Argue with your DM at length.)

With a +79 spot modifier, you can make Spot checks at +0 at 1,580'- not even your whole first range increment.

End conclusion?
Wow. Achievable ranges are an order of magnitude greater than I thought before I started working on this build.
Also, this is utterly useless.

Reality check:
Longest recorded and confirmed sniper kill: 2,430 meters = 7,972 feet = 1.51 miles.
Longest arrow shot: 2,028 yards = 6,084', and that was from a footbow.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-25, 02:14 AM
Note, however, that according to RAW, Spot checks are not required to see creatures that are not Hiding, invisible, or otherwise "difficult to see".
You're not reading the rules very thoroughly, I'm afraid.
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.Right at the beginning of the Skills chapter there's a table called Difficulty Class Examples, which sets the DC at Very easy (0) to "Notice something large in plain sight" with the Spot skill. The difficulty opposing Spot changes by +/- 4 for every size increment. And Spot imposes a -1 penalty "Per 10 feet of distance".

You've actually got the RAW completely backward. D&D rules don't allow encounters to start until somebody makes a successful Spot or Listen check. From the Dungeon Master's Guide on page 22:
An encounter can begin in one of three situations.
• One side becomes aware of the other and thus can act first.
• Both sides become aware of each other at the same time.
• Some, but not all, creatures on one or both sides become aware of the other side.

When you decide that it is possible for either side to become aware of the other, use Spot checks, Listen checks, sight ranges, and so on to determine which of the three above cases comes into play.
EDIT: The complete flip-flop in viewpoint is because of the ambiguity of the phrase "difficult to see". You've interpreted this as a rule, whereas I went looking for other clues. As it turns out, anything can be "difficult to see" if you fail a Spot check, and the phrase is merely a description rather than a rule about when to make checks.

WeeFreeMen
2009-10-25, 02:27 AM
Haha, nice build man.
That is some crazy range, and Its funny how you compare the Wizard.

Sadly in reality (DnD wise) the Wizard already saw it coming and has turned himself into some kind of turtle. :P (Dam you polymorphhhhhh!!!!!)

Overall, the most effective build Ive used for "Long-Range" assaults inside of actual combat was 310'

Nice exercise though, love all that math.

crazedloon
2009-10-25, 02:43 AM
level 17 (your choice of class) Great wyrm dragon wrought kobold with the Distant Shot feat and 20 ranks in spot has unlimited range as long as the target is in line of sight.....

Psyborg
2009-10-25, 04:10 AM
You're not reading the rules very thoroughly, I'm afraid.
Hmm. Good catch. Okay, so in summary you DO actually have to make the spot check to notice anyone. :smallfrown:

However, this:

And Spot imposes a -1 penalty "Per 10 feet of distance"
is superseded by the Cragtop Archer class feature Farsight.

Farsight (Ex): A cragtop archer enjoys
great visual acuity. She suffers only half the normal penalty on her Spot checks because of distance (–1 per 20 feet of distance, rather than –1 per 10 feet). In addition, a cragtop archer takes only half the normal penalty
on ranged attacks per range increment (–1 per range increment, rather than –2).

Glad at least that you didn't find anything wrong with the weapon range calculations.:smallbiggrin:


level 17 (your choice of class) Great wyrm dragon wrought kobold with the Distant Shot feat and 20 ranks in spot has unlimited range as long as the target is in line of sight.....

Epic feats on non-epic characters strikes me as being particularly cheesy cheese. Though how I can say that with a straight face, after posting the above monstrosity, is certainly open to question.

Spoilered for minimal relevance:
One could also, of course, make a Human Psion 20, preferably Erudite for the free Psicrystal, and then take Improved Psicrystal for the Human feat, levels 1,3,6,9,12,15 and 18 feats, and the Psion 1,5,10,15, and 20 feats, and have a Psicrystal equivalent to that of a Psion 72 character. Note that due to a quirk of the rules, psicrystals gain actual hit dice (Construct hit dice, if it matters, complete with 3/4 BAB), and so, RAW, gain feats for these HD normally. Your level 72 psicrystal still only had half the HP of your psion, but has 25 feats of its own, 18 of which can be Epic feats.

Eldariel
2009-10-25, 05:25 AM
Wind Tunnel-spell? And honestly, you can just UPD all the powers you want, go with classes that maximize range. Dorjes aren't level-capped and it's still only DC 20 UPD to activate them.


As for Spot, a hundred is pretty easy to make, and counts for 2000ft with Cragtop Archer. All you need is 200 to see 4000 feet away. Once we reach ~10000ft (easily doable) though, it gets a bit harder, so it might pay to use spells to bypass that. Chain of Eyes makes for a nice spotter spell.

Oh, and 3 levels of Pious Templar is more economic for Weapon Specialization (to get Ranged Weapon Mastery) than 4 levels of Fighter, other than feat-wise.

Darrin
2009-10-25, 05:36 AM
A Dragonwrought Kobold can qualify for Distant Shot [Epic] at ECL 17. That should get rid of any pesky range penalties.

Adumbration
2009-10-25, 05:43 AM
Actually, there is a method for seeing up to 10 miles away. It merely requires an investment of 108,200 gps. Purchase two items: Glass of Distance (Sandstorm, page 134) and Arms of the Naga (Savage species, page 55). Arms of the naga is for holding the Glass of Distance while you aim and fire.

Eldariel
2009-10-25, 05:58 AM
Actually, there is a method for seeing up to 10 miles away. It merely requires an investment of 108,200 gps. Purchase two items: Glass of Distance (Sandstorm, page 134) and Arms of the Naga (Savage species, page 55). Arms of the naga is for holding the Glass of Distance while you aim and fire.

That's actually really good (you can just get Extra Arms or so too over the Arms of the Naga); even fully pimped out range increment isn't really that much over 10k' so that's mere 2 miles. It'll easily cover all your distant viewing needs.

Psyborg
2009-10-25, 01:48 PM
Dorjes aren't level-capped

This changes everything.

Okay, new build.

Still Goliath.
Same Ability scores as above, but without the +Wis item. (+5/+0/+4/+2/+8/+1).

Build: Fighter 4 / Frenzy Barbarian 1 / Deepwood Sniper 10 / Cragtop Archer 3 / (two free levels, any ideas?)

(Re: Pious Templar: True, but since we need Deepwood Sniper 10 and Cragtop Archer 3, four levels of a base class are easier to fit in than three of a PrC.)

Feats:
1: Point-Blank Shot
1F: Mercantile Background
2F: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)
3: Weapon Focus (Greatbow)
4F: Far Shot
6: Item Familiar
9: Weapon Specialization (Greatbow)
12: Ranged Weapon Mastery-Piercing
15: Mountain Warrior
18: Zen Archery (important since Dex gets tanked when you Size up)

Possessions (WBL 760,000)
39,150 Glass of Distance View up to ten miles away
(Mounting it on the bow would seem cheaper than buying a Spare Hand)
(Mercantile Background invoked on price)

3,000 Headband of Continuous Hawkeye +5 Spot, Range x1.5

3,000 Bracers of Continuous Accuracy Range x2

7765+8,000
Item Familiar: Paid for Colossal+ +1 Force Dragonbone Composite Greatbow (Mighty +5). Gained Distance for free at level 10, Seeking for free at level 14, and Precise for free at level 18. +1 bow cost 75% (Mercantile Background; further enchantments cost half, plus XP; I'm assuming the +10% XP was enough to cover enchanting the bow.

39,900 Belt of Continuous Giant Size (7th-level spell, caster level 19, duration measured in minutes) (Mercantile Background)

150 Gnomish [strike]cross[/strikebow Sight Treat targets as if two range increments closer

Total so far: 460,065
Remaining: 299,935

Which is enough to buy a Dorje of Extend Range at Manifester Level...at, uh...well, if normal value calculations hold true at epic levels, at manifester level 399. Augmented 99 times. Increase range by 10,000%. *checks Epic Level Handbook*


Use the guidelines in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If your item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.

Okay, so we have a ML399 Dorje of Extend Range, fully charged. Incidentally, once used, its effects last for 3,990 minutes, or about 66 hours.

Please note that Mercantile Background was not used to lower the price of the dorje. Something like this would probably take some finding in Sigil, so I doubt any earthly contacts would be much help.

Range calculations:
130' Composite greatbow start
x1.25 Large
x1.25 Huge
x1.25 Gargantuan
x1.25 Colossal
x1.25 Colossal+
396' Subtotal
+20' Dragonbone
416' Subtotal

Multipliers:
+100% Distance enchant
+50% Far Shot
+50% Hawkeye
+100% Accuracy
+10,000% Extend Range
+25% Flight arrows
+10,225% TOTAL
42,952' Subtotal

+20' Ranged Weapon Mastery
+100' Deepwood Sniper

43,072' Total Range Increment

Seventeen of those range increments is...732,224'. Which is 138.7 miles. Which is a playing grid 2.3 miles long in the real-world.

Okay, this has now moved from ridiculous to ludicrous. *shakes head* My God, is D&D that easy to break?

EDIT: Yeah, I know- dumb question.

Hurlbut
2009-10-25, 11:53 PM
This changes everything.
43,072' Total Range Increment

Seventeen of those range increments is...732,224'. Which is 138.7 miles. Which is a playing grid 2.3 miles long in the real-world.

Okay, this has now moved from ridiculous to ludicrous. *shakes head* My God, is D&D that easy to break?

EDIT: Yeah, I know- dumb question.

first; the curvature of the world
secondly; the terrain interfering with LOS
thirdly; being able to see your target that far out :)

Fax Celestis
2009-10-26, 12:10 AM
Range calculations:
130' Composite greatbow start
x1.25 Large
x1.25 Huge
x1.25 Gargantuan
x1.25 Colossal
x1.25 Colossal+
396' Subtotal
+20' Dragonbone
416' Subtotal

Why are you putting Dragonbone last?

arguskos
2009-10-26, 12:14 AM
Eh, I've found that 1,650 to 3,300 is about the right range for sniping. You're well beyond anything that your opponents can do about it, short of Teleport-->whack with sticks.

Dark Herald
2009-10-26, 12:17 AM
wait, Frenzied Berzerker?

nevermind, read it wrong

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-26, 12:22 AM
Eh, I've found that 1,650 to 3,300 is about the right range for sniping. You're well beyond anything that your opponents can do about it, short of Teleport-->whack with sticks.You were beyond reach. With 4th level spells, though, I have a couple ideas.

For everyone but Arguskos:I'm a spont caster with 5 4th level spells per day and Dim Door on my list. 720' per cast. If he hits us with that 3300' sniper again, I can reach him and bring along half the party. It will be a massive nova, but this guy is a beyond annoying recurring villain at this point so it would be worth it.

Plus, it's good to let him know I'm not going to run again, in case I need to book it.

oxinabox
2009-10-26, 01:09 AM
Eh, I've found that 1,650 to 3,300 is about the right range for sniping. You're well beyond anything that your opponents can do about it, short of Teleport-->whack with sticks.

There are some long range combat spells:
Acid arrow has range long: for a CL 20: 1,200 ft
but really you need CL 35: 1800 ft
or CL 73 for >3,300ft

Chainlightening might be a good bet, long rang Plus can arc, unfortuatly can't arc more than 30 ft from orignial target.

However, for a wizard there's aways a way to get you. you can't beat a wizard... (jk)
Nightmare (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=3353)
1d10 damage, target become fatigued.
Will negates.
Range Unlimitted.
They wizard doesn't know who you are (other than "the person who shat at me",) though they may have second hand knowledge: eg theres this guy who can shoot an arrow to the moon...

so since that don't really knmow you get a +10 on the will save.
But since they have a possession of yours, an Arror, you get a -4 on the will save.

10 minute casting time, but the wizard has clearly put himself somewhere safe (summon legmands tiny hut would do) after being hit by an arrow

olentu
2009-10-26, 01:26 AM
Dorjes aren't level-capped

When did this happen and where would I find such a statement as uncapped dorjes would be quite nice. I ask only because in my copy of the expanded psionics handbook on page 168 it states that the manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains.

Eldariel
2009-10-26, 01:30 AM
When did this happen and where would I find such a statement as uncapped dorjes would be quite nice. I ask only because in my copy of the expanded psionics handbook on page 168 it states that the manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains.

I meant they aren't capped by the level of power they can contain, unlike Wands.

olentu
2009-10-26, 01:44 AM
I meant they aren't capped by the level of power they can contain, unlike Wands.

Ah uncapped in a different area. Oh well no manifester level 7 billion or more dorjes for me.