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BobVosh
2009-10-25, 06:08 AM
Ok, I kinda messed up. My PCs are in a long drawn out run away sequence. Just on the way out of the tower the bard is hit with feeblemind. I saw the critter had it, and knew it was strong against them.

The issue is the party was level 9. They literally have no way to get it removed for 2 levels. Is it just cheesy they happen to find a scroll of heal, or something similar to remove it. Just happens to be on the next thing they fight. The main reason I can't rely on them to get out of this on their own is the next level and a half will be running. Until they finally get somewhere major.

I don't know why but its just cheesy to me. Is there at least a neat way to do it?

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-25, 06:13 AM
I wouldn't GIVE it to them... But even running, there are rest stops. People out looking, they slip into a room, which happens to be a high cleric or somesuch... Or perhaps a kindness or a risk along the way is rewarded... Even better if the bard does it.

Feeblemind is crippling mechanically. But it's a roleplaying opportunity, as well. Raw emotion, raw action, no speech. Can he be understood?

oxinabox
2009-10-25, 06:26 AM
have one of the persueers minons, appear out infront of them.
HE some how snuck ahead.

When they kill him easilly, and go to keep running,
roll for 'Random' loot.
Just so happen to roll a 'heal scroll' (heck if they need it also roll a scroll of owls wisdom) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)
Roll real dice, pretend to read them and look up tables.

Maybe even act surpised at there fortuante luck.
"I don't believe i rolled this, i thought i was going to kill you dead with that feebleminded"

(if persuit is a metaphore then treat this as a metahore also)

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-25, 06:36 AM
That's risky. It can destroy the PC feeling of danger, if it looks, in any way, contrived.

Adumbration
2009-10-25, 06:57 AM
Our group had a pretty similar problem, in the last campaign. The BBEG hit the Ninja with Bestow Curse, the 50% action version. Suffice to say, it was very frustrating for the guy.

Can't remember exactly how we got over it... I think he made a new character, eventually.

random11
2009-10-25, 08:02 AM
Unless there is a time limit or someone is chasing them, this situation is actually good.

A good player will see that the situation cannot go on, and will try to make a detour to heal the bard.
This is an excellent opportunity for a short mini-quest to find a high level cleric.

If the players don't think about it, give them a small hint that this is a possible action, but don't tell them where to go, let that depend on their map, knowledge skills and basic common sense.

Jest don't make this quest too long, I'm guessing the bard's player will feel a bit annoyed after awhile.

Jack_Simth
2009-10-25, 08:33 AM
Unless there is a time limit or someone is chasing them, this situation is actually good.

A good player will see that the situation cannot go on, and will try to make a detour to heal the bard.
There's an assumption here: That the other players in the group want to keep the Bard, rather than switching out for a Rogue, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Druid.


This is an excellent opportunity for a short mini-quest to find a high level cleric.

If the players don't think about it, give them a small hint that this is a possible action, but don't tell them where to go, let that depend on their map, knowledge skills and basic common sense.

They're 9th level. The party Wizard should have just picked up Teleport. The party Cleric can't handle the effects, but an NPC Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm)-16 or 17 could have Heal as a spell. And Adepts should be slightly easier to find than Clerics, what with Adepts being NPC classes and all.


Jest don't make this quest too long, I'm guessing the bard's player will feel a bit annoyed after awhile.
On the flip side, the Bard can still use Bardic Music just fine. Which is... interesting, to say the least.

Aldizog
2009-10-25, 10:13 AM
Flat-out lying to the players (pretending to roll the dice and then saying "I don't believe this" when in fact you planned it) is a bad idea. They'll probably guess that you're lying and feel that you insulted their intelligence. Tell them flat-out "Yeah, I recognize that there does need to be some way to get that effect removed, so some sort of means is going to show up in the next session or two." Maybe a scroll. Maybe a shrine that gives the cleric a one-time ability to prepare spells that day as if two levels higher. Maybe magic fountain that has various Wand-of-Wonder-type-effects, one of which is Heal, and the bard is convinced to keep drinking until he gets cured. Maybe a ghaele eladrin or an astral deva imprisoned in a Binding effect (I lean towards using monsters here more than name-level NPCs).

But as others have noted, Feeblemind does offer an RP opportunity that could be fun for a short time. And as to the possibility of bard's player "switching out" for another PC, brand new fully-equipped name-level PCs that just happen to show up are at least as implausible as a Heal spell showing up. Hopefully they wouldn't choose to do that.

Riffington
2009-10-25, 10:44 AM
There's an assumption here: That the other players in the group want to keep the Bard, rather than switching out for a Rogue, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Druid.

Even if the other players wanted to control what he played, their characters would still want to heal their companion.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 10:48 AM
have one of the persueers minons, appear out infront of them.
HE some how snuck ahead.

When they kill him easilly, and go to keep running,
roll for 'Random' loot.
Just so happen to roll a 'heal scroll' (heck if they need it also roll a scroll of owls wisdom) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)
Roll real dice, pretend to read them and look up tables.

Maybe even act surpised at there fortuante luck.
"I don't believe i rolled this, i thought i was going to kill you dead with that feebleminded"

This only works if you do random loot routinely, and use this trick EXTREMELY seldomly.

Personally, I prefer using this opportunity as a side quest chance.

Freshmeat
2009-10-25, 10:51 AM
I don't know why but its just cheesy to me. Is there at least a neat way to do it?

Have the PC's seek out a high-level cleric to solve the problem. Or have them run into one by means of a plot hook (i.e. perhaps they need to find said cleric first or he turns out to be anything but an altruist and wants you to do something for him first). Alternatively, have them track down and buy or steal a scroll to solve the problem.

Just having the solution appear out of thin air to fix the problem would be complete Deus Ex Machina. Let the PC's figure out a way of how they might solve the problem and take it from there. If they're on the wrong track, give them a slight nudge in the right direction, but at least have them put some effort into it.

Darrin
2009-10-25, 11:52 AM
The issue is the party was level 9. They literally have no way to get it removed for 2 levels.


Does the party have access to Planar Ally or Planar Binding? Because you can call up something that does have heal. Hollyphant (BoED), for example, has heal as a SLA.



Is it just cheesy they happen to find a scroll of heal, or something similar to remove it. Just happens to be on the next thing they fight.


Give them a "plot hook" instead - the name of a Cleric or some other ally that has access to the scroll, and put it in the same general direction they are going.

Kaldrin
2009-10-25, 12:02 PM
I'd probably use it as a role-playing opportunity if I was the player. Why does it have to be taken care of right away?

kjones
2009-10-25, 12:13 PM
have one of the persueers minons, appear out infront of them.
HE some how snuck ahead.

When they kill him easilly, and go to keep running,
roll for 'Random' loot.
Just so happen to roll a 'heal scroll' (heck if they need it also roll a scroll of owls wisdom) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)
Roll real dice, pretend to read them and look up tables.

Maybe even act surpised at there fortuante luck.
"I don't believe i rolled this, i thought i was going to kill you dead with that feebleminded"

(if persuit is a metaphore then treat this as a metahore also)

I would recommend this advice. Your players are probably not stupid, and will recognize what's going on - and then you're worse off than if you had just given it to them straight-up.

Lamech
2009-10-25, 12:20 PM
If they can get too a town they are supposed to be able to buy such items. If they can't then those spells are probably a bad idea. (Because your removing a balancing factor. Disease is much more powerful with out remove disease.)

I have a novel idea, in some dead/gone wizards tower there are some magic traps, one is a disjunction trap. (Does disjunction get rid of feeblemind? Its probably a personally researched version anyway.) Bard walks in and gets disjoined, hopefully with out all his magic toys. It would be a nice little dungeon crawl. Summoned monsters and everything.

Indon
2009-10-25, 12:41 PM
I agree with the 'find an NPC' suggestion. You could make a quest out of this.

Make it roleplay-heavy, and make the Bard prominent, so that he doesn't just phase out due to being feebleminded. Get the Bard's player engaged in playing up his feebleminded status.

AshDesert
2009-10-25, 12:57 PM
I'm going to go with the whole "quest to find a high level healer" thing to get it fixed for them. Since they're on the run, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for them to run into a couple of situations:

A) While going through a forest, they happen upon a high level NG Druid's grove. After a bit of Diplomacy (don't make it too hard, considering there Face is Feebleminded and all), they could convince the Druid that they mean no harm. A Good Druid would likely be more then willing to heal a magically crippled Bard, and maybe even give the party escort out of the forest.

B) If they end up in a bigger town/city, it's not inconceivable for 11th level or higher clerics to be hanging around at the big churches.

Nightson
2009-10-25, 01:00 PM
Give feeblemind a duration. Something in the area of a week to two weeks, maybe one day per caster level.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 01:00 PM
I have a novel idea, in some dead/gone wizards tower there are some magic traps, one is a disjunction trap. (Does disjunction get rid of feeblemind? Its probably a personally researched version anyway.) Bard walks in and gets disjoined, hopefully with out all his magic toys. It would be a nice little dungeon crawl. Summoned monsters and everything.

If they're too low level to have remove disease, then disjunction is probably a wee bit overpowered, and unless they somehow don't have a single magic item, is rather likely to end up hurting them even worse. I'd recommend against this idea.

Dr Bwaa
2009-10-25, 01:30 PM
On the flip side, the Bard can still use Bardic Music just fine. Which is... interesting, to say the least.

Bardic Music requires a Perform check, which is Cha-based. Feeblemind doesn't allow any Int- or Cha-based skills to be used at all :(

I also throw my opinion into the side-quest camp (absolutely possible while on the run; just be a little creative with where and how you place your quest). This is a great RP opportunity for the whole party; don't cheap out and let them get out of it. They will also feel much more like they've accomplished something if they have to quest for it, even in a smallish way, which is always preferable to them feeling like the DM is taking pity on them. Always.

ondonaflash
2009-10-25, 01:54 PM
B) If they end up in a bigger town/city, it's not inconceivable for 11th level or higher clerics to be hanging around at the big churches.

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww251/ondonasand/inconceivable.jpg

Inhuman Bot
2009-10-25, 02:23 PM
There's an assumption here: That the other players in the group want to keep the Bard, rather than switching out for a Rogue, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Druid.

They're 9th level. The party Wizard should have just picked up Teleport. The party Cleric can't handle the effects, but an NPC Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm)-16 or 17 could have Heal as a spell. And Adepts should be slightly easier to find than Clerics, what with Adepts being NPC classes and all.

On the flip side, the Bard can still use Bardic Music just fine. Which is... interesting, to say the least.

But... a level 16-17 adept?

And if you knew feeblemind was going to cause problems, why didn't you just not use that?

taltamir
2009-10-25, 03:22 PM
I wouldn't GIVE it to them... But even running, there are rest stops. People out looking, they slip into a room, which happens to be a high cleric or somesuch... Or perhaps a kindness or a risk along the way is rewarded... Even better if the bard does it.

Feeblemind is crippling mechanically. But it's a roleplaying opportunity, as well. Raw emotion, raw action, no speech. Can he be understood?

feeblemind lowers your int and cha to 1... you don't have any raw powerful emotions. You cannot speak because you are too dumb to speak, not because you were rendered mute.

OP, next random guy having a scroll? that is too much. (sets a bad precident too)

but you could suggest OOC that they use some sort of scrying to locate the nearest one... take a few minutes only to do the scry, just say "you get there without problems" however may days it takes in game, and then have them have a quick and dry combat before they get the rewards, which include a scroll. in game, time passed. Out of game, the bard got to sit out of one combat (or a few combats if it is a slightly bigger mini dungeon).

ondonaflash
2009-10-25, 03:54 PM
feeblemind lowers your int and cha to 1... you don't have any raw powerful emotions. You cannot speak because you are too dumb to speak, not because you were rendered mute.

Doesn't that turn one into an Ooze? Or is there just a disease that has similar symptoms? I think your bard should roleplay an Ooze.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 03:56 PM
Doesn't that turn one into an Ooze? Or is there just a disease that has similar symptoms? I think your bard should roleplay an Ooze.

as dumb as an ooze, yes... by raw you are not ALLOWED to play anything with under 3 int. It is just not smart enough to make decisions... even int 3 is crippling.

AstralFire
2009-10-25, 04:03 PM
Retcon a duration into a variant version of feeblemind that the monster had.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 04:09 PM
Retcon a duration into a variant version of feeblemind that the monster had.

it was a "lesser feeblemind, has a duration of 1 day"... I like it :)

AlfredAmeoba
2009-10-25, 04:20 PM
I like the idea of a trap, but a small drawback would make it seem more in place. You could also have an intelligent trap that needs to be bribed, etc...

Hypothetical, though. If someone cast owls wisdom/foxes cunning/eagles splendor, would the stats (temporarily) raise?

holywhippet
2009-10-25, 04:28 PM
Bardic Music requires a Perform check, which is Cha-based. Feeblemind doesn't allow any Int- or Cha-based skills to be used at all :(


Some bardic music requires a perform check. Some don't. Generally they require a certain skill level though. By RAW the bard should be able to use some songs. By RAI I'd be tempted to not let them use it at all.

Samb
2009-10-25, 04:57 PM
A kind looking old healer (cleric, pally, favored soul) see your group's bard in need of a heal and kindly cures him of his feeblemind and offers the battered group shelter and dinner.

At dawn, the group finds themselves locked in the their rooms, the people chasing after them right outside the window. The healer is next to the leader, pointing in your direction.

The old bait and switch, healer right when you need it, and even shelter when you need it the most? Seems too good to be true right? Well it is. This way you heal the bard and still maintain believability. Win-win

taltamir
2009-10-25, 05:08 PM
Some bardic music requires a perform check. Some don't. Generally they require a certain skill level though. By RAW the bard should be able to use some songs. By RAI I'd be tempted to not let them use it at all.

he can't SING, he is too dumb to form words...
By RAW he is also too dumb to be making PC decisions... you need a min int of 3 to be character. Otherwise you are just too dumb to do anything.
Aka, even if he posses the power of bardic music, he is too dumb to decide to use it.

Indon
2009-10-25, 09:10 PM
feeblemind lowers your int and cha to 1... you don't have any raw powerful emotions. You cannot speak because you are too dumb to speak, not because you were rendered mute.

Charisma doesn't really measure the strength of your emotions. A dog can die defending those they care about and they have a Cha of 6 in D&D.