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View Full Version : [3.5] The "core only" limitation



weenie
2009-10-25, 06:13 AM
So me and a few friends have been playing d&d 3.5 for a bit more than a year now. When we started I was the only veteran player, while the others were as fresh as they get, and thus we limited ourselves to the core rules, so people could start learning them gradually. After some time the others got familiar with the basic mechanics, but when I suggested that we started using splatbooks too, the others(particularly the DM) said that would be too much work and that the game is fine as it is.

I think that his major concern is the possibilities this would give me in the sense that I could start building broken characters. But so far I've been playing wizards, druids and lockdown fighters. Pretty strong characters in other words. And many of them died violently, because he really loves lethal games. Even outside core there's not much that can compete with a pure Druid or Wizard.

What I would like is playing characters that are hard or impossible to make with the core rules, like gishes(we play low leveled games), finesse fighters, etc. I also enjoy character building a LOT, and the insane amount of material available in 3.5 is what makes it so fun.

So, what could I do to show my DM that going out of core isn't a bad thing? Try to explain it to him again? Swear I'll make characters that won't outshine the party(only happened with the Druid so far)? Bribe him with snacks and beer? Have you ever had this problem?

Temet Nosce
2009-10-25, 06:19 AM
I'm unsure of how to persuade him (maybe provide example characters, using low tiers? Warlock, ToB classes, etc). However, as you probably well know Core is easily the source of the most broken material of any D&D book. I think your best bet might be running comparisons between core and selected non core books one by one. You also might show off some of the more interesting non core options.

If on the other hand he's actually not liking the idea because of the work rather than unwillingness to change, well in that case you may be in more trouble because that's a valid issue for him (I personally would not play in such a case, but given your tone I doubt that's an option since this seems more of a friends thing). Best suggestion would be to try to reduce his workload.

Eldariel
2009-10-25, 06:21 AM
Uh, be honest with him? "I want to play characters I cannot mechanically create in a satisfactory way in core" is a perfectly legitimate argument and completely true.

If you further proceed to state that "I won't make anything stronger than what I've already played in Core" and hold onto your word, I don't see any reason why he should keep the limitation in place.

If he thinks you're pushing the envelope power-wise, show an equivalent level Core Druid or Wizard you've already played and point out how it outperforms your non-core character in every way imaginable ('cause let's face it, unless you're playing a twinked out non-core caster, a perfectly core caster is going to be more powerful).


But yeah, the key points are obviously:
A) Explain why you really want to use non-core material.
B) Point out that splatbooks don't, in that purpose, increase the power of the characters you play one bit.

If you do both, I see 0 reason for him not to allow it.

oxinabox
2009-10-25, 06:37 AM
start building what you want (Many builds use their early base classes from core)
Eg a gish:
so fighter 2/Wizard 3
Then be like (as session or so before your next lvl): i wish I could cast in armour, really sucks I can't be a real fighter tin can, and I lack the spells to do it the wizard way with the Sheild/Mage Amour spell.

Then when you lvl mention:
HEy I found a cool PrC that would really fix my low AC problem:
And show him Abjurant champion/Spellsword
(Up to this point don't get any of the wizardish AC items like armourt braces of mithral buckler, or twilighted mithral chain)


Or come up with this Really Cool Backstory for a Paladin, who wants to free his people from slavery, by anymeans nesciasry.
THen a couple of minutes before the game starts realise "Wait that's Chaotic good, i can't a be a paladin. damn looks like i'll have to rewrite my everything"
then when everyone look annoyed be like:
"Wait isn't there a paladin of Freedom in the SRD?"
(from UA)

kamikasei
2009-10-25, 06:48 AM
I have to strongly advise against oxinabox's suggestion - it could easily come off as if you're trying to sneak something past the DM and put him on the defensive. Just do as Eldariel suggests, and be entirely up front about it. You want to build characters that aren't properly represented in core, not more powerful, just different. Core+everything else is more broken than core on its own, yes, primarily because of the combinatorial explosion of options available, but the majority of the most broken stuff has been available to you in core already without the game imploding; simply ask him to trust you, as if he can't your game's screwed anyway.

Killer Angel
2009-10-25, 06:49 AM
After some time the others got familiar with the basic mechanics, but when I suggested that we started using splatbooks too, the others(particularly the DM) said that would be too much work and that the game is fine as it is.


This is the issue. 'til the DM and the other players are not bored playing only Core, you sould live with it. Sometime (if you're studying or working) the problem is to find the time to read and learn new manuals.
Give'em the time to "explore" the Core (one year is a little time), then they'll be the first who want to implement the game, looking for splatbooks... suggest them the better ones.

weenie
2009-10-25, 07:11 AM
This is the issue. 'til the DM and the other players are not bored playing only Core, you sould live with it. Sometime (if you're studying or working) the problem is to find the time to read and learn new manuals.
Give'em the time to "explore" the Core (one year is a little time), then they'll be the first who want to implement the game, looking for splatbooks... suggest them the better ones.

That's partially true, but if I'm the only one with a non-core character they don't really need to know all the rules and mechanics around it. If I use something out of the ordinary during a fight, I can explain fairly quickly what are the consequences of my action, but I can't imagine it would be any more time consuming than explaining what happens when I cast grease, black tentacles, or mirror image as a core wizard. And if the DM would like to know what my character is capable of for designing encounters, I could give him a short description beforehand. It's not really that much work on their part.

deuxhero
2009-10-25, 08:03 AM
If it is for balance issues, Batman Wizard and Natural spell Druid.

Ozymandias9
2009-10-25, 08:35 AM
That's partially true, but if I'm the only one with a non-core character they don't really need to know all the rules and mechanics around it. If I use something out of the ordinary during a fight, I can explain fairly quickly what are the consequences of my action, but I can't imagine it would be any more time consuming than explaining what happens when I cast grease, black tentacles, or mirror image as a core wizard. And if the DM would like to know what my character is capable of for designing encounters, I could give him a short description beforehand. It's not really that much work on their part.

Yes, but not every DM is comfortable dealing with mechanics that they're not particularly familiar with. That said, if you're dealing primarily with gishes and finesse fighters rather than something that is a mechanically different system like psionics or ToB, it should be an easier sell.

Also make a point to note that you're still attempting to play to the power level of the table. Often when this comes up, it's a matter of someone disliking the power creep that was introduces in source books, and thus trying to keep the power level as close to core as possible.

pres_man
2009-10-25, 09:31 AM
How to convince the other players?

Buy everyone at the table a copy of each book you wish to use.

Choose to DM the game yourself and allow the books.

Saph
2009-10-25, 09:43 AM
Yes, but not every DM is comfortable dealing with mechanics that they're not particularly familiar with.

This is the big reason, in my experience.

Learning new rulebooks is a lot of work and opens up a lot of new possibilities. This can be good for a player, but it's hard on a DM as now they have to learn a whole bunch of new tricks. If you know about the broken stuff in Core but don't know about the broken stuff in non-Core, then you're quite right to worry about balance issues from non-Core books.

Eldariel's suggestion is the best one IMO. Just promise that you won't make anything stronger than level X with the non-core books, and hold to it. If you can do this consistently, then the DM will probably stop worrying about it and give you more latitude.

Needless to say, this approach will fail utterly if you don't stick to your word. :)

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 10:31 AM
Find his preferred areas of D&D. Everyone has their favorite weakness. Bring in a book focused on that. If he loves dragons, grab the draconomicon. If he's complaining about the amount of work involved in preparing, bring in one of the books with premade adventures, and suggest he look at some of those. If he's a fan of traps and evil dungeons, stronghold builder's guide. Try to make sure they are books that aren't focused on your character, to alleviate worries about munchkinry.

In other words, start off slowly. Get him into using one book, or perhaps a chunk from a particular book. Which book isn't the issue, the point is to show him how much the additional books add, and get him comfortable with them slowly.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-10-25, 11:29 AM
I agree with everyone else and i'm adding this tidbit

If you're going to try and purswade them to let in the other books, you should start with books like: Complete Adventurer, complete warrior, complete arcane, complete divine.

Those books share a look and feel with core and will be easier to convince hesitant core only types.

DO NOT start with the more interesting and often system changing books like: Complete Psionics, Unearther arcana, ToB, ToM, or even complete scoundrel (which has the skill trick system).
These books all have things that sort of change the system and will look alot scarier than the other books.

Also avoid the newer books: PH2 and the races books. As the sudden jump in power can look a bit imposing if all you've been playing is core.


Another nice trick would be too bring in a book that has very little to do with characters first, somthing that will make Gming easier. . . like cityscape or dungeonscape.

Indon
2009-10-25, 12:38 PM
Introduce non-core materials one book at a time, or even one concept at a time.

I imagine your group might make exceptions for something cool, so long as it isn't something blatantly powerful ("I want to take this feat, it's called Travel Devotion?").

Killer Angel
2009-10-25, 12:40 PM
Another nice trick would be too bring in a book that has very little to do with characters first, somthing that will make Gming easier. . . like cityscape or dungeonscape.

Something which has a set of new prcs and feats and stuffs, but also presents a setting useful for new adventures.
If Eberron is too much particular, try Faerun's player's guide, with all the fancy regional feat and new Prcs... (and please avoid the Incantatrix... :smalltongue:)

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-25, 12:48 PM
One simple thing you could do is explain how broken core is.

Ghost is stronger than almost any other template in the game. That many levels for immortality, telekinesis and magic jar at will? Amazing.

Show him how Druids are so much stronger than fighters. Then explain that fights recieved numerous buffs to offset this problem in books like Complete Warrior. Try to show him books in the order they were released and explain what the books bring to the table and how they can be modified and adjusted to assure balance.

Alternatively, you be the GM. Do it for a quick 'throw away' adventure or two. And allow 3rd party books. Encourage them, even. Make some pre-built Shugenja and Warlocks and pass the sheets around.

Every book, from PHB to PHBII, has its broken things. Even the SRD...Heck, the Nanobot idea can easily be entirely core. Its not even a build. Its just "I can cast Animate Object at level X, then get 2*X my AC by having all those animated objects use 'aid another'. I can spend 3,000 XP with permenancy and make this buff permanent. Wash-rinse-repeat."

PinkysBrain
2009-10-25, 01:05 PM
So, what could I do to show my DM that going out of core isn't a bad thing? Try to explain it to him again?
Offer to DM :)