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oxinabox
2009-10-25, 10:33 AM
Do you think WotC puts powerful things in Splat books to help sell them?

For example the new races from Ro* are all kinda powerful (if not always up to human/ strongheart halfling standards)

Starbuck_II
2009-10-25, 10:53 AM
Sometimes, but otherwise it is stealth balancing like Bard.

Cyanic
2009-10-25, 11:06 AM
Sounds like a good conspiracy theory :smallbiggrin: ToB

Zincorium
2009-10-25, 11:49 AM
I suspect it's more that certain authors enjoy a much higher or lower powered game than the average, and this tends to show up in their work. In addition, there's the possibility that they simply didn't realize something would be as weak or strong as it ends up being- the truenamer couldn't have been a deliberate calculation, but maybe the planar shepard fit right into the group it was *ahem* playtested in.

It's best to think of even official splatbooks as simply collections of homebrew material from people who are paid to do it. You're going to get a much more thorough take on something than you'd usually find online, but it's usefulness and potential to break the game are things you just have to judge on an individual basis.

Set
2009-10-25, 01:20 PM
For the new classes, it seems like a bit of compensation as well. A new class has to face competition with classes that have a dozen or more different splatbooks worth of feats, spells, etc. and multiple threads worth of CharOps optimization tactics written up for them. If the new class (Dread Necro or Archivist, for instance) isn't strictly better than a core-only class, it's going to be dogmeat against a core class using splat content.

Then again, there are plenty of splatbook classes (Samurai, Healer, Warmage, Hexblade, etc.) that suck hard enough that they serve as counter examples.

I suspect it's not that splatbook material is overpowered, as that splatbook material contains a plethora of material, some of it overpowered, and some of it just as egregiously underpowered, but that the OP examples stick out a lot more than the feats, spells, etc. we look over and think, 'Worthless' before moving on to the Shivering Touches and Arcane Spellsurges.

Tiktakkat
2009-10-25, 01:28 PM
Do you think WotC puts powerful things in Splat books to help sell them?

For example the new races from Ro* are all kinda powerful (if not always up to human/ strongheart halfling standards)

It is a bit more complex than that, but basically, yes.

First, there is the competition among most authors to make their thing (race, class, country, whatever) "cooler" than the thing the other authors are writing. That primarily translates as throwing more power at them.

Second, is untested synergy. The more stuff you add from a greater pool of authors who are not in constant contact, cross-referencing everything they write, the greater the chance, approaching 100%, that you get synergies between various basic elements (races, classes, feats, spells, and equipment) that produce results disproportionately powerful and thus destructive to the overall game balance.

Third, is basic power creep. Any time you look to expand the options in a game, you have to do something to make them attractive. This almost always translates as making them just a little bit more powerful than previous options.

Fourth, is raw giveaway. For the same reason it was decided that all books need crunch (meaning actual rules material), even the most basic background book, to drive sales, it is often decided that said crunch be more powerful than previous material to entice potential customers to "pay to play" "better" (meaning just more powerful) characters than anybody who does not purchase the new hotness.

The first two can be controlled by a good enough product line editor, as even the best authors give in to the temptation. (They just have the integrity to admit it.)
The third by a decent brand manager, who hires the right authors and editors in the first place.
The last is a corporate level decision, and thus the most difficult to control, or reverse once it begins. It is the game equivalent of jumping the shark.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-25, 03:06 PM
Do you think WotC puts powerful things in Splat books to help sell them?

For example the new races from Ro* are all kinda powerful (if not always up to human/ strongheart halfling standards)

Tiktakkat nailed it, because a perfectly balanced system ends up pretty bland when there's no difference between options. Introducing some power creep, or simply leaving it entirely unbalanced (Marvel VS Capcom 2, anyone?) is a way to sell product, so long as the balance is semi-maintained. 3.5 sold well without even realizing the power gap though. 4E is more genre aware about this, and seeks to strike a balance inside itself (hence why Orbizards aren't getting nerfed; they're powerful, but have a weakness that prevents them from being universally used).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-25, 03:58 PM
Also remember that splatbooks are not more broken than core. Contingency is Core. 3 of the big 5(6) are core. Humans are core. Splatbooks are powerful, yes, but if a class is both splatbook and weaker than a core alternative, no one will ever bother with it(Samurai etc).

Aldizog
2009-10-25, 04:38 PM
Tiktakkit nailed it, but I'd also add that versatility is power. Additional options, even if they aren't flat-out more powerful than existing options, increase the power level anyway.

Add "celestial crocodile" to the SMIII list, and the good cleric now has an option against aquatic opponents that he didn't have before. Add "frostball" as a 3rd-level wizard spell (or energy substitution), and the wizard now has an option against a roomful of azer. Add a 1d12 martial bludgeoning two-handed weapon, and the barbarian now has a superior option for fighting skeletons.

Tiktakkat
2009-10-25, 05:18 PM
Tiktakkit nailed it, but I'd also add that versatility is power. Additional options, even if they aren't flat-out more powerful than existing options, increase the power level anyway.

That is part of what I meant by unintended synergy. Never mind bizarro combos like the locate city bomb or Pun-Pun, as you say, versatility as just simple options is, ultimately, another form of power creep.

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-25, 05:24 PM
Some things are stronger than others.

Therefore more things will be stronger and weaker than other things.

Its inevitable in a game where you can quantify strength.

Would you buy a book with character options (feats, etc...) that were weaker than those you were already using? Well, perhaps if they were more flavorful. But then we have the argument:

"Is Wizard's saving its best flavor for Splat books?"

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 07:20 PM
I don't feel they intentionally use additional power to sell books(MTG does, though. Definitely).

Here's why...I can go back to early third ed books, and find broken, cheesy stuff. Sometimes this stuff has been reprinted in a less broken form in 3.5 books. Doing this isn't consistent with adding power. Likewise, there are a great amount of ridiculously weak options in newer books.

Now sure, power level does creep up eventually with volume, due to mistakes made by designers, unintended synergy, and the value of choice. I would say that only additional choice is intended, and that this is generally done in such a way as to affect power level least.

It's pretty telling that most of the broken spells are still from core, after all.

sonofzeal
2009-10-25, 08:42 PM
It's been often stated, but I'll say it again: most of the really powerful stuff is in core. Most splatbook material is actually rather weaker than core in general, with a few exceptions (ToB, Complete Champion). Stuff that's objectively better than the average level of Core stuff is fairly rare, and generally peaks out well below the best of Core stuff.

The only reason splatbook stuff can seem better is because players tend to only choose the stuff that's decent, and because they'll choose the stuff that synergizes with what they already have from core.

For example, a Druid will Wildshape into a Fleshraker - is this OP because Fleshrakers are OP, or because Wildshape is OP? Or is it a bit of both?

For another example, a Barbarian ubercharger does a couple hundred points of damage in a single round - is this because Power Attack is OP, because Shock Trooper is OP, because Leap Attack is OP, or because Rage is OP? Or do a lot of strong pieces add up to something impressive?


In general, powercreep is a myth. There's certainly the occasional "fix" like Tome of Battle that brings melee types closer in line with spellcasters, and there's certainly the occasional poorly edited/tested book like Complete Champion that throw a bunch of stuff at the wall to see what sticks (I generally encourage ToB and ban Champion), but those are the exceptions. Splatbooks are generally on the weaker side, not the stronger side.

AshDesert
2009-10-25, 09:07 PM
There really isn't so much a power creep as there is players having more very good options to choose from than in Core. What I'm saying is, with each splat book there is a spread of Crap Material, Poor Material, Average Material, Good Material, and Excellent Material. Those can be spells, feats, whatever. Just options to build you're character.

The reason that non-Core play can be observed to produce better characters than Core play is simple. In Core, you run out of Excellent and Good material. A Core-only Fighter runs out of useful feats, and ends up using a lot of filler, whereas there are several non-Core feats that can take up the space of those formerly filler slots, thereby creating more powerful characters. There is still plenty of Crap in splatbooks, it's just that, unlike a Core game, you aren't forced to take anything bad as filler at high levels.

aje8
2009-10-25, 09:18 PM
I think the flaw in this theory relies on a fundamental assumption: WotC knows what is balanced. I honestly don't think they do.

Look at Wizard. Now look at Fighter. Notice how they're both core. Notice how WotC thought core was balanced. Realize that WotC doesn't really get 3.5 balance. Yes, they fixed evertyhing in 4.0, but they really didn't 'get' balance in 3.5. They created whatever they wanted from a fluff perspective and did only minimal balancing.

Because WotC doesn't really understand balance, they print both Shadowcraft Mage and Green Star Adept. They print both Ninja and Archivist. They don't really get it.

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-25, 09:20 PM
While I don't think Splat books are stronger, wouldn't it make sense if they were.

More books are likely to be bought by more experienced groups. Meaning more experienced GMs. Meaning GMs who are better prepared to deal with more powerful characters. Right?

oxinabox
2009-10-25, 09:52 PM
I think the flaw in this theory relies on a fundamental assumption: WotC knows what is balanced. I honestly don't think they do.

Look at Wizard. Now look at Fighter. Notice how they're both core. Notice how WotC thought core was balanced. Realize that WotC doesn't really get 3.5 balance. Yes, they fixed evertyhing in 4.0, but they really didn't 'get' balance in 3.5. They created whatever they wanted from a fluff perspective and did only minimal balancing.

Because WotC doesn't really understand balance, they print both Shadowcraft Mage and Green Star Adept. They print both Ninja and Archivist. They don't really get it.

with 3.0 and earlier, TSR and WoTC, didn't try to pretend they were making a balanced game.
Why? Because a wizard throwing balls of HellFire has got to do more (total) damage that a fighter hitting you with a sword.
If it didn't then that would be stupid, right?

I'm not argueing that most of the broken is in splatbooks, or that every new book is over all more powerful.

I'm saying that in many book they put one really decent thing in that makes you want it:
Eg Raptorian, Illumninum, arcivist, factoum, golith,

Then again there's PHBII: Duskblade, Knight, and beguiler all in one book.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 09:58 PM
I've also seen books in which pretty much nothing can be described as overpowered. Rules Compendium, for example. It's pretty much just a handy tool, and you'd really have to stretch to find anything actually broken by it.

Other books are packed with goodies. It just really, really varies. It strikes me of less of an overall plan than "Hey, this idea sounds cool. Lets make a book on dragons! We haven't had dragons in a book for a while have we? Eh, we cant be bothered to look, so lets have a go at it."

oxinabox
2009-10-26, 12:14 AM
Other books are packed with goodies. It just really, really varies. It strikes me of less of an overall plan than "Hey, this idea sounds cool. Lets make a book on dragons! We haven't had dragons in a book for a while have we? Eh, we cant be bothered to look, so lets have a go at it."
With dragons, that is so true.
Dagonimicon, Dragon magic, Races of the Dragon, umm the whole damn dragonlance setting...

There are so many differnent ways to make yoru character more dragonic you could never fit them all in one build.

Pika...
2009-10-26, 12:21 AM
Definitely.

Just like Paladium. In Rifts, whoever has the newest splatbook wins. I imagine it's too easy a business strategy for WotC to pass up.

Haven
2009-10-26, 12:22 AM
Other books are packed with goodies. It just really, really varies. It strikes me of less of an overall plan than "Hey, this idea sounds cool. Lets make a book on dragons! We haven't had dragons in a book for a while have we? Eh, we cant be bothered to look, so lets have a go at it."

Well, it is in the name of the game...:smalltongue:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-26, 12:27 AM
With dragons, that is so true.
Dagonimicon, Dragon magic, Races of the Dragon, umm the whole damn dragonlance setting...

There are so many differnent ways to make yoru character more dragonic you could never fit them all in one build.I prefer turning your character into a Bear.

Specifically, a Were-Bear Shifter Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Were-touched Master(Bear). You turn into a Bear, turn into a Bear/Bear hybrid, then take on the aspects of a Bear.

Dracomorph
2009-10-26, 01:07 AM
I prefer turning your character into a Bear.

Specifically, a Were-Bear Shifter Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Were-touched Master(Bear). You turn into a Bear, turn into a Bear/Bear hybrid, then take on the aspects of a Bear.

http://students.ou.edu/H/Jacob.M.Higginbotham-1/colbert-lockwood.jpg

I'm watching you, tallkid.

bosssmiley
2009-10-26, 07:54 AM
Do you think WotC puts powerful things in Splat books to help sell them?

Does splatbook bloat exist?

Is the Pope a bear? Do Catholics $#!% in the woods? :smallamused:

Kurald Galain
2009-10-26, 08:02 AM
Do you think WotC puts powerful things in Splat books to help sell them?
Yes. If everything in splatbook X was weaker than in the PHB, it would not sell well. It is not practically possible to have everything on the exact same power level as in the PHB. Since it's not desirable to have everything weaker, and not possible to have everything equal, it becomes inevitable that some things will be stronger.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-26, 08:10 AM
I think the flaw in this theory relies on a fundamental assumption: WotC knows what is balanced. I honestly don't think they do.

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

I find it more pleasing to my mind to believe WotC is incompetent than to believe that they're the Big Bad Corporation deliberately introducing power creep to breed a generation of munchkins who need the newest books to win.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-26, 08:24 AM
Gotta go with the Hanlon's on this.

Also, really, again, Core >> everything else in terms of imbalance. If you banned Core, with the possible exception of the feats (which were generally weak and are often used outside of Core for pre-reqs), you'd probably have a more balanced game. Probably grab the Bard and maybe the Barbarian since they have unique class features and are the closest to balanced (or at least, are once you get other books that help them out). Wu Jen, or even better Psion, replaces Wizard, Favored Soul replaces Cleric, Totemist (probably) replaces Druid, etc etc.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-10-26, 09:10 AM
With dragons, that is so true.
Dagonimicon, Dragon magic, Races of the Dragon, umm the whole damn dragonlance setting...

There are so many differnent ways to make yoru character more dragonic you could never fit them all in one build.Now this, we need to do! Extra points the more 'dragon' words you find in your classes and abilities :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2009-10-26, 09:12 AM
The winner gets an all-expense paid Falcon Kick to the head.

Tiktakkat
2009-10-26, 01:24 PM
Also remember that splatbooks are not more broken than core. Contingency is Core.

And yet Contingency started as expansion material. :smallbiggrin:


For example, a Druid will Wildshape into a Fleshraker - is this OP because Fleshrakers are OP, or because Wildshape is OP? Or is it a bit of both?

For another example, a Barbarian ubercharger does a couple hundred points of damage in a single round - is this because Power Attack is OP, because Shock Trooper is OP, because Leap Attack is OP, or because Rage is OP? Or do a lot of strong pieces add up to something impressive?

Fleshrakers are not core.
Shock Trooper and Leap Attack are not core either.

So is it the core material, or the splatbook material in both of those examples?
Those are however further excellent examples of synergy and how it can be destructive to game balance.

As for Hanlon's Razor, it fails because it allows only for stupidity or malice as options.
Why do WotC authors, editors, or brand managers have to either hate gamers or be incompetent in order for them to incorporate power creep in the game?
They could just be choosing a different business and game development model. They may not be making the choices I like or would make, but I do not assume any negative intent or ability just because of that.

AstralFire
2009-10-26, 01:27 PM
Ah, well, that one's explained by

Astral's Law of Strawmen: It's easier to call people names than assume they're just doing things differently.

apparently everyone else has a law, I wanted one too

Fluffles
2009-10-26, 02:02 PM
I prefer turning your character into a Bear.

Specifically, a Were-Bear Shifter Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Were-touched Master(Bear). You turn into a Bear, turn into a Bear/Bear hybrid, then take on the aspects of a Bear.

Yo dawg, I put a bear in a bear in a bear so you can do bear stuff while you do bear stuff while you do bear stuff.

AstralFire
2009-10-26, 02:03 PM
Yo dawg, I put a bear in a bear in a bear so you can do bear stuff while you do bear stuff while you do bear stuff.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2007/20070704.jpg
http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/217520127_QpkpA-L-2.jpg

subject42
2009-10-26, 02:06 PM
There are so many differnent ways to make yoru character more dragonic you could never fit them all in one build.

My Half-dragon dragonwraught dragonborn kobold dragon shaman named Draco Dragonowski disagrees.

tyckspoon
2009-10-26, 04:01 PM
My Half-dragon dragonwraught dragonborn kobold dragon shaman named Draco Dragonowski disagrees.

He's still not an actual dragon, or a Dragon Disciple, or Draconic, or a Dragon Fire Adept.. in short, needs more dragon.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-26, 04:13 PM
He has kobold in there, so he counts as a true dragon. Once he's a true dragon, you can apply the dracolich template. Might be other options as well.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-26, 04:46 PM
Why do WotC authors, editors, or brand managers have to either hate gamers or be incompetent in order for them to incorporate power creep in the game?
They could just be choosing a different business and game development model.

Hanlon's Razor uses "malice", which is a strong word. But choosing power creep is a bit more than just a "different game development model" - IMO it shows a notable lack of goodwill for the traditional customer base. Might be a fair enough business strategy, good for the new customers being acquired, but that doesn't change the neglect that the old customers would experience.

IMO, power creep isn't really a conscious decision mostly; it's just the inevitable result of introducing options that are different. Synergy and all that.

Optimystik
2009-10-26, 04:56 PM
In fairness, not every 3.5 supplement can be accused of employing this strategy. I don't recall anything exceptionally powerful in Magic of Incarnum or in Tome of Magic, though I may be grossly misremembering something.

oxinabox
2009-10-26, 08:27 PM
My Half-dragon dragonwraught dragonborn kobold dragon shaman named Draco Dragonowski disagrees.

He's Not a spellscale, he's not Dragonspawn.
Inshort he needs more dragon.

Heh, you could have like 7 differnt breath weapons.
and 4 sets of wings!

sonofzeal
2009-10-26, 10:11 PM
Fleshrakers are not core.
Shock Trooper and Leap Attack are not core either.

So is it the core material, or the splatbook material in both of those examples.
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Did you miss that somehow? I deliberately gave two examples where there's a mix of core and non-core stuff, with the implied lesson that it's often the core material that makes it work or is the broken part, or that it's just a number of pieces that synergize well. It's not that non-core is broken, it's that the whole game has stuff that's awesome and stuff that sucks, and you're just as likely if not more so to see the broken stuff coming out of Core.



Books that did not significantly boost the general power curve:
Complete Warrior
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Magic of Incarnum
Tome of Magic
Sandstorm
Stormwrack
Frostburn
Dungeonscape
Cityscape
Lord of Madness
Miniatures Handbook
Complete Psionic



Books that significantly boosted the general power curve:
Tome of Battle
Complete Champion
Book of Exalted Deeds
Book of Vile Darkness
Unearthed Arcana


....eh, I'm not seeing a pattern. If "power creep" were real, I'd expect to see early books being weak and late books being strong, but two of the strongest books came out before almost all of the more balanced books. Unearthed Arcana is pretty early too, and as variant rules it's pretty optional. Tome of Battle is power creep, but an (imo) justified one in the form of a "stealth fix" for melee types. Complete Champion is just poorly made all around, and to my eye seems less of a "power creep" and more of an "aw screw it let's just publish the darn thing".

The Glyphstone
2009-10-26, 10:17 PM
Why are BoVD and BoED on the uberpower list? I got the impression, both from reading them myself and other people's comments, that the books as a whole are decidedly unimpressive except for a small handful of unbalancing material that's rather build-specific (Mindrape/Disciple of Dispater, Starmantle/Amulet of Retribution/Words of Creation). I'd say CWar and CArc belong on the bottom list more than the Extremist Alignment books, considering the influence each of them had on their respective archetypes - and definitely Spell Compendium, for being the last nail in the coffin re. magic out-optioning melee.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-26, 10:21 PM
He's Not a spellscale, he's not Dragonspawn.
Inshort he needs more dragon.

Heh, you could have like 7 differnt breath weapons.
and 4 sets of wings!

New, improved Tiamut, now with 96% more dragon!

Starbuck_II
2009-10-26, 10:25 PM
Why are BoVD and BoED on the uberpower list? I got the impression, both from reading them myself and other people's comments, that the books as a whole are decidedly unimpressive except for a small handful of unbalancing material that's rather build-specific (Mindrape/Disciple of Dispater, Starmantle/Amulet of Retribution/Words of Creation). I'd say CWar and CArc belong on the bottom list more than the Extremist Alignment books, considering the influence each of them had on their respective archetypes - and definitely Spell Compendium, for being the last nail in the coffin re. magic out-optioning melee.
BoVD is pretty decent:
The spells are pretty strong. Not all as some good ones require you to be demon/undead (both for a few...).
Cancer Mage has Pun-Pun level Str bonus and Natural armor.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-26, 10:29 PM
Right, forgot about the Cancer Mage, but that'd go into the list of incredibly overpowered stuff in a big pile of bleh (does anyone, ever, actually use the Cancer Mage for anything except infinite gamebreaker builds?).

I may have underestimated the spells, though now that I look at it, there are some gems...Death By Thorns, Mindrape, Crushing Fist of Spite, etc.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-26, 10:31 PM
Plus, you've got solid feats like Fell Drain.

BoED tends more torward the magic items, IIRC. Not to say the char options are bad...things like VoP are classics, but they tend to be specific to good characters, and specifically exalted characters, where for BoED, being non-good is enough to get plenty of goodies.

sonofzeal
2009-10-26, 10:34 PM
Why are BoVD and BoED on the uberpower list? I got the impression, both from reading them myself and other people's comments, that the books as a whole are decidedly unimpressive except for a small handful of unbalancing material that's rather build-specific (Mindrape/Disciple of Dispater, Starmantle/Amulet of Retribution/Words of Creation). I'd say CWar and CArc belong on the bottom list more than the Extremist Alignment books, considering the influence each of them had on their respective archetypes - and definitely Spell Compendium, for being the last nail in the coffin re. magic out-optioning melee.
BoED and BoVD do have a wide mix of material, but I included them because both have a vast array of exceedingly powerful options. It doesn't matter if there's a lot of crud there too, as people will aim for the powerful stuff. Suffice it to say that there's plenty in both that's overpowered, and I can provide examples if you want.

CWar is where it is because it's honestly pretty tame. There's stuff from it that gets used, certainly, but nothing that really boosted the power curve substantially. Hulking Hurler is the only "broken" bit I can think of off the top of my head, and that's rather niche. As far as day to day optimization goes.... there's a few decent PrCs, Swashbuckler3 dips, and Extra Rage (useful for Barb1 dippers). Not a whole lot, and nothing particularly out of line with Core. The book as a whole is a decent workhorse, but I'd never call it power creep.

CArc has some nice spells but few if any that are all that famous or memorable. Mostly it's a source of the infamous full-casting PrCs, so in hindsight I suppose you could argue that.

Spell Compendium wasn't so much the "final nail in the coffin" as a lovely guide that shows you where all the nails already were and puts them all in one place for you. How many of the really good spells there were actually original? Bite of the XYZ... anything else?

The Glyphstone
2009-10-26, 10:46 PM
BoED and BoVD do have a wide mix of material, but I included them because both have a vast array of exceedingly powerful options. It doesn't matter if there's a lot of crud there too, as people will aim for the powerful stuff. Suffice it to say that there's plenty in both that's overpowered, and I can provide examples if you want.


I gave examples, but you said stuff that increases the general power curve. The books had two or three things that were overpowered without gamebreaking (Starmantle Cloaks and Amulets of Retribution, Death by Thorns and the Disciple of Dispater) a couple of things that didn't increase the power curve so much as crush it flat with a sledgehammer (Cancer Mage used for infinites, but even that wasn't possible when the book came out I think), one or two items that lowered the power curve (Vow of Poverty comes to mind immediately, particularly since it looks so awesome on its surface and thus encourages people to hurt themselves by taking it), and a massive heap of mediocre. Aside from the first category, of which there are probably less than a dozen items or spells between both books, none of it increases the general power level to the degree you described, particularly when compared to ToB and CChamp.

Spell Compendium deserves it IMO because, though it didn't add very much new material, it condensed the material from a ton of books into one accessible source. Pretty much any caster player benefited from SC's release if they didn't already own a large collection of obscure books, many of them campaign-setting specific. Now they only need one book to get all of those spells, making it much more likely that they will use said material.

Milskidasith
2009-10-26, 10:50 PM
Dungeonscape greatly increased the power curve in Gestalt. In regular games, Factotum would be a cool class to play as, though not amazing. In Gestalt, Factotum is basically "Extra actions, ignoring death, bonuses to everything, and three EX abilities of your choice (Mettle, Int to AC, level 15 Druid animal companion? Why the hell not!)"

AstralFire
2009-10-26, 10:56 PM
Gestalt doesn't count. It just... does not count.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-26, 11:22 PM
Yo dawg, I put a bear in a bear in a bear so you can do bear stuff while you do bear stuff while you do bear stuff.New build: Werebear Shifter Druid/Weretouched Master.

Wildshape into a bear, lycanthrope into a bear/bear, shift to become more bearlike, then cast Bite of the Werebear. And share it with your grizzly animal companion. Can anyone think of a way to add more bear to it?

sonofzeal
2009-10-26, 11:51 PM
I gave examples, but you said stuff that increases the general power curve. The books had two or three things that were overpowered without gamebreaking (Starmantle Cloaks and Amulets of Retribution, Death by Thorns and the Disciple of Dispater) a couple of things that didn't increase the power curve so much as crush it flat with a sledgehammer (Cancer Mage used for infinites, but even that wasn't possible when the book came out I think), one or two items that lowered the power curve (Vow of Poverty comes to mind immediately, particularly since it looks so awesome on its surface and thus encourages people to hurt themselves by taking it), and a massive heap of mediocre. Aside from the first category, of which there are probably less than a dozen items or spells between both books, none of it increases the general power level to the degree you described, particularly when compared to ToB and CChamp.
BoED has a whole lot of extremely powerful stuff. Here's a partial list....

Champion of Gwynharwyf
Emissaries of Barachiel
Sentinel of Bharrai
Lion of Talisid
Touch of Golden Ice
VoP Druids
Starmantle Cloaks
Amulets of Retribution
Righteous Wrath (enables "Friendly Berserker")
Exalted Wild Shape
Vow of Nonviolence/Peace


BoVD, I'm not as familiar with, but it also has Disciple of Dispater, Soul Eater, and Thrall of Juiblex, in addition to Cancer Mage and some pretty nasty spells. I've never really played a fiendish character though, so my knowledge here is minimal.


Spell Compendium deserves it IMO because, though it didn't add very much new material, it condensed the material from a ton of books into one accessible source. Pretty much any caster player benefited from SC's release if they didn't already own a large collection of obscure books, many of them campaign-setting specific. Now they only need one book to get all of those spells, making it much more likely that they will use said material.
You'll notice my list was not exhaustive, nor was it intended to be. I do think SPC is a fantastic book for casters, but I'm not sure it really warrants a place. It's more a convenience than anything else, and conveniences are not "power creep".

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-26, 11:57 PM
You'll notice my list was not exhaustive, nor was it intended to be. I do think SPC is a fantastic book for casters, but I'm not sure it really warrants a place. It's more a convenience than anything else, and conveniences are not "power creep".You'll notice SpC actually nerfed many spells that were OP, while powering up those that were too weak. It's a compendium and a balancer, not new content.

Pika...
2009-10-27, 12:00 AM
My Half-dragon dragonwraught dragonborn kobold dragon shaman named Draco Dragonowski disagrees.



He's still not an actual dragon, or a Dragon Disciple, or Draconic, or a Dragon Fire Adept.. in short, needs more dragon.


How do I build this? @.@


Does Half-Dragon and Dragonborn even stack?!

The Glyphstone
2009-10-27, 12:11 AM
BoED has a whole lot of extremely powerful stuff. Here's a partial list....

Champion of Gwynharwyf
Emissaries of Barachiel
Sentinel of Bharrai
Lion of Talisid
Touch of Golden Ice
VoP Druids
Starmantle Cloaks
Amulets of Retribution
Righteous Wrath (enables "Friendly Berserker")
Exalted Wild Shape
Vow of Nonviolence/Peace


BoVD, I'm not as familiar with, but it also has Disciple of Dispater, Soul Eater, and Thrall of Juiblex, in addition to Cancer Mage and some pretty nasty spells. I've never really played a fiendish character though, so my knowledge here is minimal.


You'll notice my list was not exhaustive, nor was it intended to be. I do think SPC is a fantastic book for casters, but I'm not sure it really warrants a place. It's more a convenience than anything else, and conveniences are not "power creep".

I'd have to re-read the books in more detail - I don't recognize anything on that list that I hadn't mentioned besides the Vow of Nonviolence/Peace, so I must not have read them closely enough.

For SpC, you're right that it is a convenience, but that's why I think it warrants a mention...it did very little to raise the theoretical max power of the game (as mentioned, lowering it in places), the level we typically deal with on the internet, but in terms of actual tabletop games all over the world, it probably did a great deal towards improving the power level of casters by making a vast number of spells far more accessible to everyday players, the sort that don't hang out on internet forums looking for cool and/or powerful ideas from Sourcebook #235.

Tiktakkat
2009-10-27, 12:12 AM
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Did you miss that somehow? I deliberately gave two examples where there's a mix of core and non-core stuff, with the implied lesson that it's often the core material that makes it work or is the broken part, or that it's just a number of pieces that synergize well. It's not that non-core is broken, it's that the whole game has stuff that's awesome and stuff that sucks, and you're just as likely if not more so to see the broken stuff coming out of Core.

Except that is not what you demonstrated.
To show that the core material is as bad as the expansion material, you must provide core only examples that are as bad or worse than the core plus expansion material.
If you had an example of wildshape and something core that was as bad or worse than wildshape and fleshraker, or rage, power attack, and something core that was as bad or worse than rage, power attack, shock trooper, and leap attack, then you would have shown that the core material is equally flawed.
If as you did, you only have the expansion combos, then what you are showing is that it is the expansion material that upsets the balance of the core material.


....eh, I'm not seeing a pattern. If "power creep" were real, I'd expect to see early books being weak and late books being strong, but two of the strongest books came out before almost all of the more balanced books. Unearthed Arcana is pretty early too, and as variant rules it's pretty optional. Tome of Battle is power creep, but an (imo) justified one in the form of a "stealth fix" for melee types. Complete Champion is just poorly made all around, and to my eye seems less of a "power creep" and more of an "aw screw it let's just publish the darn thing".

Again, you are missing synergy.
Individual elements in later books do not have to be egregiously overpowered, they just have to be overpowered when linked with options from all other books.
As for examples from your list of not-so-powerful books:
Complete Warrior Arcane Strike and Close-Quarters Fighting were always abusable. There are some abusive combos with Master Thrower, Exotic Weapon Master, and things like Halfling Skiprocks.
Complete Adventurer Master of Many Forms is pretty much all that needs to be said about that.
Complete Arcane Initiate of the Seven Veils would be enough, but it also introduces the orb spells.
Sandstorm & Frostburn I link these together because of the glorious absurdity of taking both Blazing Berserker and Frozen Berserker, thus becoming immune to both fire and cold at the same time, completely negating being vulnerable to both. Less absurdly, Frostburn offers Beckon the Frozen, a mandatory feat for a summoner, particularly druids with griffons. Sandstorm just gives up fun spells like Sunstroke (subdual damage for when you have to have a prisoner, plus a chance at being fatigued), and haboob, or a no save way to slaughter things you can lock in a room.
Cityscape Not really overpowered, but Deceptive Spell and Invisible Spell are great ways to let players destroy your urban campaign.
Miniatures Handbook I have to assume you have never seen the horror of the barshal in action, particularly when adding inspirational boost.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 12:12 AM
in terms of actual tabletop games all over the world, it probably did a great deal towards improving the power level of casters by making a vast number of spells far more accessible to everyday players, the sort that don't hang out on internet forums looking for cool and/or powerful ideas from Sourcebook #235.

IMO, this is a good thing. I have no problem with a flatter power curve between people with web builds and average players.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 12:14 AM
Except that is not what you demonstrated.
To show that the core material is as bad as the expansion material, you must provide core only examples that are as bad or worse than the core plus expansion material.

Um, you have infinite wish combos in core. How much more broken do you want? Classes that utterly dominate other classes via polymorph?

And why do you demand core only be compared to core + expansions? Wouldn't comparing core only to expansion only be more fair? It's a rare expansion trick that doesn't abuse something from core.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-27, 12:34 AM
And why do you demand core only be compared to core + expansions? Wouldn't comparing core only to expansion only be more fair? It's a rare expansion trick that doesn't abuse something from core.I suspect that's the core of the disagreement. One side is saying "Core is broken, why are you worried about expansion power levels", the other is saying "there is stuff in expansions that is more powerful than any similar option core". And you're both right.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 12:37 AM
You can't really have an expansion without offering something not in core. Otherwise...nothing would be expanded. Thus, there's more power, because something now exists that didn't before.

That's really not upping the power curve though, it's just producing more material of the same level.

sonofzeal
2009-10-27, 01:08 AM
Except that is not what you demonstrated.
To show that the core material is as bad as the expansion material, you must provide core only examples that are as bad or worse than the core plus expansion material.
If you had an example of wildshape and something core that was as bad or worse than wildshape and fleshraker, or rage, power attack, and something core that was as bad or worse than rage, power attack, shock trooper, and leap attack, then you would have shown that the core material is equally flawed.
If as you did, you only have the expansion combos, then what you are showing is that it is the expansion material that upsets the balance of the core material.
Core only examples are trivial. Wizard is better than any non-core arcane spellcaster; Druid is better than any non-core divine spellcaster; a massively disproportionate majority of the best spells come from Core. That's trivial. Showing that the most broken stuff comes from core is known, and I have absolutely no interest in fighting that battle yet again.

What I was doing was trying to point out the falacy in the thinking, to point out that "omg Fleshraker pwns" is the fault of Druid Wildshape just as much if not more so than it is the fault of MM3 for including the darn beast. It's not even that much better than some core options, and worse in some ways (unless you're using Venomfire, but that's a spell from a totally different 3.0 campaign specific book).

People look at a build that uses non-core material, see that the result is powerful, and blame the non-core, when really the core is an integral and equally "broken" part of the whole concept.


Again, you are missing synergy.
Individual elements in later books do not have to be egregiously overpowered, they just have to be overpowered when linked with options from all other books.
As for examples from your list of not-so-powerful books:
Complete Warrior Arcane Strike and Close-Quarters Fighting were always abusable. There are some abusive combos with Master Thrower, Exotic Weapon Master, and things like Halfling Skiprocks.
Complete Adventurer Master of Many Forms is pretty much all that needs to be said about that.
Complete Arcane Initiate of the Seven Veils would be enough, but it also introduces the orb spells.
Sandstorm & Frostburn I link these together because of the glorious absurdity of taking both Blazing Berserker and Frozen Berserker, thus becoming immune to both fire and cold at the same time, completely negating being vulnerable to both. Less absurdly, Frostburn offers Beckon the Frozen, a mandatory feat for a summoner, particularly druids with griffons. Sandstorm just gives up fun spells like Sunstroke (subdual damage for when you have to have a prisoner, plus a chance at being fatigued), and haboob, or a no save way to slaughter things you can lock in a room.
Cityscape Not really overpowered, but Deceptive Spell and Invisible Spell are great ways to let players destroy your urban campaign.
Miniatures Handbook I have to assume you have never seen the horror of the barshal in action, particularly when adding inspirational boost.
A lot of the things you mention are.... uh, not broken at all. Marshal is considered a rather weak class, actually, below the Fighter, Ninja, Hexblade, and Divine Mind. Also, Master of Many Forms is massively underpowered for a Druid, given that it takes two dummy feats and completely kills your spellcasting and animal companion progression. Close-Quarter Fighting seems rather weak and I have no clue how one would attempt to abuse it since all it does is give you a little bit of grapple resistance. Arcane Strike, eh, it's nice if you're already a gish but gishes generally are pretty mediocre and sacrificing spells sucks; it's good on a Duskblade or especially a Swiftblade, but I don't really see why it deserves mention.

Anyway, I'm not forgetting synergy. I've actually mentioned it a few times. I take it for granted that adding options is always going to increase the general power level, simply because options give you more things to do that help your particular style. That's not what the OP was talking about though, he was talking about stuff that's over and above core as a deliberate marketing lure. And that's what I'm responding to.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 01:15 AM
CWar still has Shock Trooper, which has to count for something. That said, given it's only any good with melee, I guess it doesn't really count; but if ToB counts, it's a start.

And BoED; well, let's just say of your list I'd only consider the Starmantle Cloak, Apostle of Peace and Words of Creation to break any kinds of expected power levels.

VoP Druid is still worse than Wilding Clasp-equipped Druid and not much better than Druid without Wilding Clasps, Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace are just some extra AC and would only make such a list because of being disruptive to the game, etc. Meeh, I'm just not seeing it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-27, 01:23 AM
Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace are just some extra AC and would only make such a list because of being disruptive to the game, etc. Meh, I'm just not seeing it.Not disagreeing with the overall point(SonofZeal basically said my position better than I ever could), but VoNV/VoP basically makes a Beguiler able to take out any CR-appropriate challenge and many of higher CR.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-27, 01:31 AM
Yo dawg, I put a bear in a bear in a bear so you can do bear stuff while you do bear stuff while you do bear stuff.

God. That's unbearable.

Superglucose
2009-10-27, 01:33 AM
That's really not upping the power curve though, it's just producing more material of the same level.
Maybe, but you can't honestly tell me, with a straight face, that Iot7FV isn't flat out better than any of the PrCs listed in the DMG. Incantatrix? Some of these books ("craft Contingent Spell", "Shivvering touch", "Abrupt Jaunt") do in fact twist the power curve. I would argue Complete Arcane does so with its lovely PrCs.

Also, while Shapechange may be more earth-shattering than Iot7FV, mix the two together and you have an unprecedented level of power.

Then again, I've yet to play in a serious game that doesn't ban the Polymorph line and restrict Druid wildshape.

sonofzeal
2009-10-27, 01:34 AM
CWar still has Shock Trooper, which has to count for something. That said, given it's only any good with melee, I guess it doesn't really count; but if ToB counts, it's a start.
Point, I forgot about Shock Trooper and Combat Brute for some reason. Those definitely get some points.


And BoED; well, let's just say of your list I'd only consider the Starmantle Cloak, Apostle of Peace and Words of Creation to break any kinds of expected power levels.
Sentinel of Bharrai basically gives your Sor/Wiz an unlimited use, significantly superior version of Wildshape (but bear shape only), as well as a bunch of other goodies, and is full-casting. Champion of Gwynharwyf lets your Barbarian keep basically everything he'd have gotten before (d12 HD and full Rage advancement), and hands him a whole bunch of great class features including a solid boost to save and immunity to charms/compulsions, and gives him spellcasting. Lion of Talisid isn't as extreme, but gives your Druid basically everything she'd have gotten before and a bunch of other goodies on top of that. Exalted Wildshape gives (Ex) and (Su) abilities of a number of nice forms.


VoP Druid is still worse than Wilding Clasp-equipped Druid and not much better than Druid without Wilding Clasps, Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace are just some extra AC and would only make such a list because of being disruptive to the game, etc. Meeh, I'm just not seeing it.
VoP Monk 1 / Druid X will likely have an insane AC, more so than any Wildling Clasp guy. Also, a lot of DMs balk at dinosaurs walking around with enough bling to make most rappers jealous. Still, that's a fair call.

Vow of Nonviolence = +4 to the DCs of all your abilities. That's huge. A VoNV Beguiler has a massive advantage with almost no penalty, as does anyone else who relies on Battlefield Control, Nonlethal Damage, or Debuffs that don't involve ability score damage (ability score penalties are fine). Buffers and Healers don't really care either way, but it's still nice to have.

Vow of Peace = Calm Emotions Aura (I can't explain how game-changing this can be :smalleek:), plus a nasty weapon shatter effect (I enjoy being nigh-immune to weapon strikes, don't you?), and both benefit from the +4 to DCs bit of VoNV. Oh yeah and then you get the +6 to AC you mentioned.

Krazddndfreek
2009-10-27, 01:40 AM
This probably has been said before in this thread but:

Look, if you wanted stronger things, then the solution would not be to go buy a book. You would hombrew stronger things. You can live without the stuff in the books and make up stuff that's better. Some of the books have lots of worthless words (4e Draconomicon) while others actually do have some useful, albeit interesting mechanics you wouldn't have thought of yourself (ToB). So I would argue that, no, they aren't making more powerful things in books to make you buy them. They are making different and interesting mechanics and things that you definitely wouldn't have thought to make.

If that helps any :smallredface:

Kylarra
2009-10-27, 01:48 AM
Claiming that core + stuff is greater than core is a rather pointless argument because you already have all of subset 2 in subset 1, so of course subset 1 will always at least provide the same options as subset 2 (eg. any wildshape you can figure out can always be improved by a wilding clasp etc).

The question at hand is, can we conclusively prove that items are added to splat books for the express purpose of being strictly more powerful than core options, and if so is that intended to be done for the purposes of increasing sales? Keep in mind that there is potentially both power creep and patching at work here.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 01:51 AM
Sentinel of Bharrai basically gives your Sor/Wiz an unlimited use, significantly superior version of Wildshape (but bear shape only), as well as a bunch of other goodies, and is full-casting. Champion of Gwynharwyf lets your Barbarian keep basically everything he'd have gotten before (d12 HD and full Rage advancement), and hands him a whole bunch of great class features including a solid boost to save and immunity to charms/compulsions, and gives him spellcasting. Lion of Talisid isn't as extreme, but gives your Druid basically everything she'd have gotten before and a bunch of other goodies on top of that. Exalted Wildshape gives (Ex) and (Su) abilities of a number of nice forms.

Meh, if Polymorph-line is allowed anyways, Sentinel of Bharrai isn't that amazing; you're stuck to only Bear-forms, even. Of course, the fact that you can maintain said forms indefinitely is a huge point for the ability, but I'd frankly rather spend my fights as a Hydra or some such than a Bear, even though the Bear-forms are impressive. The other abilities do precious little, and it costs two crappy feats to enter. Meh.

And Champion of Gwynharvyf has to pick up two ****ty feats and gets very, very few spells, and nothing else much. Like, the mind-affecting protections are nice, but meh, there are other ways to protect a Barbarian from all that. I mean, it might edge out a single-classed core Barbarian, but that's 'cause said Barbarian doesn't really get anything and because feats aren't that important in Core. But beyond that...just, two feats for trivial abilities is meh.

And Lion of Talisad...meh. For a Druid, it involves giving up two levels of Wildshape and the higher level abilities for...few random abilities you have access to through Wildshape anyways. And costs another feat.


VoP Monk 1 / Druid X will likely have an insane AC, more so than any Wildling Clasp guy. Also, a lot of DMs balk at dinosaurs walking around with enough bling to make most rappers jealous. Still, that's a fair call.

Vow of Nonviolence = +4 to the DCs of all your abilities. That's huge. A VoNV Beguiler has a massive advantage with almost no penalty.

Fair enough, it's pretty good given it's just two feats for all schools. As for VoP Druid, VoP really just replicates Bracers of Armor, and weaker Ring of Protection & Amulet of Natural Armor.

Give few levels and some WPL and an equipped Druid with Monk's Belt far outdoes a VoP Druid. The real problem is low levels, but given Wildshape isn't available there, VoP is kinda less amazing than it could be.


Vow of Peace = Calm Emotions Aura (I can't explain how game-changing this can be :smalleek:), plus a nasty weapon shatter effect (I enjoy being nigh-immune to weapon strikes, don't you?), and both benefit from the +4 to DCs bit of VoNV. Oh yeah and then you get the +6 to AC you mentioned.

Well, the real AC bonus is about +2 since Natural and Deflection-bonuses come from many sources that quickly overlap VoP. The Calm Emotions-aura is huge, I suppose...


One thing I forgot; Channel Celestial is definitely nuts. Still, overall I feel the book is pretty tame.

Krazddndfreek
2009-10-27, 01:56 AM
Claiming that core + stuff is greater than core is a rather pointless argument because you already have all of subset 2 in subset 1, so of course subset 1 will always at least provide the same options as subset 2 (eg. any wildshape you can figure out can always be improved by a wilding clasp etc).

The question at hand is, can we conclusively prove that items are added to splat books for the express purpose of being strictly more powerful than core options, and if so is that intended to be done for the purposes of increasing sales? Keep in mind that there is potentially both power creep and patching at work here.1) Well if that first thing was directed at me, I did not say that 'core + stuff is greater than core'. All I meant to say was you're paying money for other peoples' imagination and it doesn't really make any sense when you could do it yourself. Granted, I am guilty of buying supplements myself, but I really don't think that wizards is actually making stronger things just so that you'll buy the books.

2) I don't think that there's any way to prove that. You can argue all you want, but someone else is going to come up with a counter argument to your argument. I just think the idea that they add stronger things to splatbooks for the sake of you buying them is just silly. I mean, if you've never looked in it, how are you going to know that anything is better than what you already have?

Kylarra
2009-10-27, 01:59 AM
1) Well if that first thing was directed at me, I did not say that 'core + stuff is greater than core'. All I meant to say was you're paying money for other peoples' imagination and it doesn't really make any sense when you could do it yourself. Granted, I am guilty of buying supplements myself, but I really don't think that wizards is actually making stronger things just so that you'll buy the books.
Not at you specifically, more of a general response keeping this particular quote in mind


To show that the core material is as bad as the expansion material, you must provide core only examples that are as bad or worse than the core plus expansion material.




2) I don't think that there's any way to prove that. You can argue all you want, but someone else is going to come up with a counter argument to your argument. I just think the idea that they add stronger things to splatbooks for the sake of you buying them is just silly. I mean, if you've never looked in it, how are you going to know that anything is better than what you already have?Of course not, but I didn't set the premise of the OP. :smalltongue:

sonofzeal
2009-10-27, 02:13 AM
Meh, if Polymorph-line is allowed anyways, Sentinel of Bharrai isn't that amazing; you're stuck to only Bear-forms, even. Of course, the fact that you can maintain said forms indefinitely is a huge point for the ability, but I'd frankly rather spend my fights as a Hydra or some such than a Bear, even though the Bear-forms are impressive. The other abilities do precious little, and it costs two crappy feats to enter. Meh.
As a Hydra you can't speak, and can't cast spells without a dubious feat from a commonly-banned non-core book. If we're talking about comparing SoB (heh) to core polymorphers, the gap is huge right there. There's also the fact that it gives infinite free (and reasonably rapid) healing. The rest is, admittedly, mediocre, but I won't complain about Resist 10 for every common element.


And Champion of Gwynharvyf has to pick up two ****ty feats and gets very, very few spells, and nothing else much. Like, the mind-affecting protections are nice, but meh, there are other ways to protect a Barbarian from all that. I mean, it might edge out a single-classed core Barbarian, but that's 'cause said Barbarian doesn't really get anything and because feats aren't that important in Core. But beyond that...just, two feats for trivial abilities is meh.
You're still giving up nothing except two feat slots, and gaining... lessee.... Divine Grace (huge), Detect Evil + Smite (won't complain, opens up some nice options), a better DR progression (won't complain), Fearsome Fury (nice extra, becomes powerful fast with stacking fear effects), immunity to charms and compulsions (nice!), Energy Resistance (won't complain), and spellcasting (huge; opens up scrolls and pearls of power).

What do you give up in return? Trap Sense. That's about it. Oh, and one terrible feat, and one that can go from useless to good depending on your DM's style, and becomes bloody fantastic when combined with Frenzied Berserker and/or Norse Berserker. Yeah, I'm going to call this a win on any reasonable standard I can think of.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 02:19 AM
As a Hydra you can't speak, and can't cast spells without a dubious feat from a commonly-banned non-core book. If we're talking about comparing SoB (heh) to core polymorphers, the gap is huge right there. There's also the fact that it gives infinite free (and reasonably rapid) healing. The rest is, admittedly, mediocre, but I won't complain about Resist 10 for every common element.

The healing is limited by your own HP, but it's handy, I admit. Never noticed the "You can speak..." line. That's nice. Makes it comparable to Polymorphing into some Giants or some such.


You're still giving up nothing except two feat slots, and gaining... lessee.... Divine Grace (huge), Detect Evil + Smite (won't complain, opens up some nice options), a better DR progression (won't complain), Fearsome Fury (nice extra, becomes powerful fast with stacking fear effects), immunity to charms and compulsions (nice!), Energy Resistance (won't complain), and spellcasting (huge; opens up scrolls and pearls of power).

What do you give up in return? Trap Sense. That's about it. Oh, and one terrible feat, and one that can go from useless to good depending on your DM's style, and becomes bloody fantastic when combined with Frenzied Berserker and/or Norse Berserker. Yeah, I'm going to call this a win on any reasonable standard I can think of.

Divine Grace is nice if you've got Cha, but that's the Paladin-syndrome. Same with the spellcasting; Wands are nice and all, but that's about it. Fearsome Fury, well, it's free. The Immunity is nice, but don't you get that from Protection from Alignment anyways with any party casters? And Energy Resistance +Detect Evil are just handy.

Really, it's the two feats, not Trap Sense or anything else I'd worry about. Feats are pretty damn good and two of them? You better have damn high Cha and Wis to make it worth it (in which case you coulda just dipped Paladin of Freedom or whatever for much the same benefits).

sonofzeal
2009-10-27, 02:35 AM
Divine Grace is nice if you've got Cha, but that's the Paladin-syndrome. Same with the spellcasting; Wands are nice and all, but that's about it. Fearsome Fury, well, it's free. The Immunity is nice, but don't you get that from Protection from Alignment anyways with any party casters? And Energy Resistance +Detect Evil are just handy.

Really, it's the two feats, not Trap Sense or anything else I'd worry about. Feats are pretty damn good and two of them? You better have damn high Cha and Wis to make it worth it (in which case you coulda just dipped Paladin of Freedom or whatever for much the same benefits).
I'll admit Champion of Gwynharwyf is rather MAD, and you're right that the Paladin suffers for it. Saying that the CoG suffers for it though, that seems a bit excessive given that pretty much everything that causes MAD is essentially just a freebie. I mean, who cares if you only have a cha of 12-14 even after items? That's still a solid boost to your saves over a straight Barbarian, and the occasional Smite that's still better than yet another normal melee attack. Likewise for Wisdom; who cares if its not a primary attribute for you, given that you're already coming out ahead?

A Paladin depends on his Wis+Cha to justify not being a Fighter. A CoG is already everything a Barbarian is and more, and all the Cha/Wis class features are just ludicrously excessive bonuses. Without them, yeah, it wouldn't really be worth it... but even if you're "only" getting a +2 to all saves, that's still sweet.

As to the two feats, I've already given my case for Righteous Wrath; under some DMs it's essential anyway, and it unlocks Battle Fury and Frenzy which are both exceedingly nice to have on a Barbarian. The other one's crud, but somehow I think you'll survive.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 02:58 AM
I'm just bringing up the MAD 'cause I think it just greatly devalues the abilities Champ gives you. If Righteous Wrath is a must, I suppose Champ is a decent option but otherwise I would rather be picking up Trip-line feats, maybe Mounted Combat-line feats and if using non-Core, Charging feats than the prerequisites; Barbarian is rather feat-light so the entry cost hurts.

sonofzeal
2009-10-27, 03:12 AM
I'm just bringing up the MAD 'cause I think it just greatly devalues the abilities Champ gives you. If Righteous Wrath is a must, I suppose Champ is a decent option but otherwise I would rather be picking up Trip-line feats, maybe Mounted Combat-line feats and if using non-Core, Charging feats than the prerequisites; Barbarian is rather feat-light so the entry cost hurts.
I'm playing one now, and it's working just fine. I took a digression through Fighter but picked up Extra Rage, with the net result of gaining feats and Rage uses, at the cost of a couple class features I didn't care much about anyway. That gave me more than enough leverage to get both the Spiked Chain Trip line and the CoG entry requirements. With Righteous Wrath as a backing I took Norse Berserker, and I'm holding back on Frenzied because I don't want to overpower the campaign (but it's there if and when I start lagging).

Anyway, the MAD isn't nearly that bad. Smite's still perfectly fine without Cha backing it up, you only need just enough Wis to cast your spells, and after a certain point Divine Grace is worth the cost of a Cloak of Charisma even if you're starting from Cha 10, since it stacks with Resistance bonuses. If either your Wis or your Cha are in the gutter you're still ahead; heck, even if both are in the gutter, the advantages are still probably worth the one throwaway feat. And, as I've just said, you can still get what you need to pull off Trip or Charger depending on your commitment level, though probably not both. Still, seriously, one or two feats is not going to kill most concepts.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 03:16 AM
I find that the standard 7 is way too little to start with; spending few on qualifications is just a huge pain. Like, your average Frenzied Berserker needs something like 4 feats to qualify (3 of which you wouldn't normally pick up, probably), 3 feats for charging, 2 feats (or more) to not-fail Will-saves, 1 for Extra Rage and that's just the bare essentials to do what FB is supposed to + not killing party (of course, Champion and Righteous Wrath might, under some DMs, enable you to Frenzy without limits, but given it strictly speaking only applies to Rages, not Frenzies, that doesn't seem to be the RAW).

sonofzeal
2009-10-27, 03:24 AM
I find that the standard 7 is way too little to start with; spending few on qualifications is just a huge pain. Like, your average Frenzied Berserker needs something like 4 feats to qualify (3 of which you wouldn't normally pick up, probably), 3 feats for charging, 2 feats (or more) to not-fail Will-saves, 1 for Extra Rage and that's just the bare essentials to do what FB is supposed to + not killing party (of course, Champion and Righteous Wrath might, under some DMs, enable you to Frenzy without limits, but given it strictly speaking only applies to Rages, not Frenzies, that doesn't seem to be the RAW).
Granted. My DM, and most I've played with, allow Flaws which raise the number of feats to 9. Fighter dips are also brilliant for Barbarians, so that brings you to 11 with little effort, with a 12th possible if you take Fighter farther. If you don't mind the BAB hit, PsiWar gets you another 2, and Expansion is pretty sweet, but it's sometimes worth the feats even if you can't manifest at all.

Also.... two feats to not-fail Will Saves? After you're complaining that two feats is too heavy a cost for a PrC that gives nigh-unparalleled protection against Will Saves? I mean, CoG gives immunity to charms/compulsions (which are some of the worst), +2 vs every other Enchantment, and +cha to all will saves. I don't know what two feats you're thinking of to not-fail Will, but I doubt it's quite that good.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 03:42 AM
Also.... two feats to not-fail Will Saves? After you're complaining that two feats is too heavy a cost for a PrC that gives nigh-unparalleled protection against Will Saves? I mean, CoG gives immunity to charms/compulsions (which are some of the worst), +2 vs every other Enchantment, and +cha to all will saves. I don't know what two feats you're thinking of to not-fail Will, but I doubt it's quite that good.

Not complaining, I'm just tallying up the costs. That's a lot of feats, no matter how good the results. Though I was thinking of Steadfast Determination; in my experience, it's the biggest Will-booster a Barb can have, particularly to avoid Frenzied Berserker's drawbacks (again, Righteous Wrath can or can not fix that depending on DM; if it can, it's great - if it can't, it's crappy).

AllisterH
2009-10-27, 08:11 AM
The question at hand is, can we conclusively prove that items are added to splat books for the express purpose of being strictly more powerful than core options, and if so is that intended to be done for the purposes of increasing sales? Keep in mind that there is potentially both power creep and patching at work here.

I think 90% of the broken things/overpowered are stuff that WOTC honestly didn't intend for.

For example, the fleshraker I don't think WOTC thought through what would happen if a druid got access to it via wildshape even though I personally believe they should've checked anything with core.

Then there are things like Pun-Pun which require using more than 1 non-core source and thus, I don't think WOTC intended for it AND really, shouldn't be held accountable for that.

Then we have the Planar Shepherd....ok, THIS, this is a prime example of a WTF?!?! IIRC, the bloody class description itself explains how to break it so I think WOTC fully intended for planar shepherd to be overpowered.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 08:13 AM
Maybe, but you can't honestly tell me, with a straight face, that Iot7FV isn't flat out better than any of the PrCs listed in the DMG. Incantatrix? Some of these books ("craft Contingent Spell", "Shivvering touch", "Abrupt Jaunt") do in fact twist the power curve. I would argue Complete Arcane does so with its lovely PrCs.

Also, while Shapechange may be more earth-shattering than Iot7FV, mix the two together and you have an unprecedented level of power.

Then again, I've yet to play in a serious game that doesn't ban the Polymorph line and restrict Druid wildshape.

So now, we're shifting the standard to "prove everything outside of core has a direct counterpart in core that's more powerful"?

That's utterly ridiculous, and would mean that non-core stuff is entirely worthless from a mechanical viewpoint.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 08:26 AM
I think 90% of the broken things/overpowered are stuff that WOTC honestly didn't intend for.

For example, the fleshraker I don't think WOTC thought through what would happen if a druid got access to it via wildshape even though I personally believe they should've checked anything with core.

Not buying that. They specifically spelled it out as a possible Animal Companion, so they must have given Druids thought when making it. Now, whoever decided that 4 attacks + pounce + free trip + free grapple + poison + 20 AC + fast movement makes for a fair package as a level 4 companion is anyone's guess.

I think the same guy who figured That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)™ is a CR 3.


Then there are things like Pun-Pun which require using more than 1 non-core source and thus, I don't think WOTC intended for it AND really, shouldn't be held accountable for that.

They didn't intend it, but it requires EXACTLY ONE NON-CORE SOURCE. All you need is Serpent Kingdoms; being Core just postpones it to level 5 or so where you can, with enough work, afford a Candle of Invocation or just do some shapechanging yourself.

All you need from Serpent Kingdoms is the Sarrukh and its Manipulate Form. Whoever decided that giving a creature the ability to give any ability in existence to another creature would be a good idea is again anyone's guess.


Then we have the Planar Shepherd....ok, THIS, this is a prime example of a WTF?!?! IIRC, the bloody class description itself explains how to break it so I think WOTC fully intended for planar shepherd to be overpowered.

As are all the others. Incantatrix is broken out of the box, for one (not to mention, Persistent Spell is printed in the same damn book! I guess WoTC just didn't realize how easy skill checks are to pump... Though given almost everything else is derived off skill RANKS, that doesn't feel plausible).

Craft Contingent Spell...boggles my mind someone figured giving casters Contingencies equal to the number of HD they have would be a good idea. I mean, let's just make them immortal while at it, amIrite? Oh, right, they pretty much already did in Core.

Hulking Hurler...so nobody thought there's something wrong with tying someone's damage directly to their carrying capacity which grows exponentially as you increase in sizes (thanks to size multipliers increasing while your Str also increases)?

Or hell, half a billion spells. Take Giant Size for one: Let's make a spell that gives someone +32 Str! Fcking BRILLIANT! And let's make it stack with everything else!

Oh, and there's that Shapechange; let's give players access to the WHOLE OF MONSTER MANUAL (as long as they can make appropriate Knowledge-checks)!

Or Gate: Let's allow players to Call ANY creature with up to twice their CL in HD and gain control of it for CL rounds. Who the heck decided ANY of these is a good idea?

Ozymandias9
2009-10-27, 10:53 AM
In general, this is less often an issue of particularly powerful individual elements than a vast increase of unplanned synergy. It's still a power creep, but to avoid it in a game with supplements would mean drastically cutting the number and/or size of supplements.

The key is that, while WotC can't seriously believe that it happens at most primarily mechanical tables (particularly on the internet), they design under the assumption that the DM is giving the OK on any non-core material (either in bulk or by element). If they had just added more emphasis to this presumption, they would likely have kept the people offended by the power creep happy. And the internet games with mechanical focus would merely have answered "What's Allowed?" with the same thing they do now: "Everything except..."


I prefer turning your character into a Bear.

Specifically, a Were-Bear Shifter Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Were-touched Master(Bear). You turn into a Bear, turn into a Bear/Bear hybrid, then take on the aspects of a Bear.

Clearly you need 9 levels in Sentinel of Bharrai from BoED so you can use Calvary of Dire Bears and take Dire Bear Shape at will.



P.S.~ Sorry to anyone who was reading for leaving the post half edited for so long. Someone actually came in for my office hours. That's 3 times: its been a busy year.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-27, 11:09 AM
Werebear Shifter Werebear 8/Weretouched Master 3/Sentinel of Bharrai 9 seems to be the one with the most bear. Bear Warrior and Sentinel of Bharrai both use polymorph as the base, and I don't think the weretouched master capstone stacks with alternate form. You could go for druid and add more bear, but you'd have to lose Cavalry of Dire Bears.

Tiktakkat
2009-10-27, 01:09 PM
Um, you have infinite wish combos in core. How much more broken do you want? Classes that utterly dominate other classes via polymorph?

What is an infinite wish combo?
Polymorph was changed by a significant errata.


And why do you demand core only be compared to core + expansions? Wouldn't comparing core only to expansion only be more fair? It's a rare expansion trick that doesn't abuse something from core.

You just said it. If the expansion tricks is abusing something from core, then the flaw only exists because the expansion material exists. Without it, the core material is what it originally was.
You could, theoretically, assume the material was released in a different order, and construct some "alternative core" out of selected expansion material and use that as a starting point, but inevitably you will reach the same end result - that whatever "pseudo-core" material you have is acceptable, but when you add expansion material that was not designed in complete coordination with it, you wind up with power creep.


Core only examples are trivial.

If they are trivial, then there would not exist so many power builds that are dependent on non-core material, thus rather thoroughly disproving your assertion.


What I was doing was trying to point out the falacy in the thinking, to point out that "omg Fleshraker pwns" is the fault of Druid Wildshape just as much if not more so than it is the fault of MM3 for including the darn beast.

Unless you can demonstrate an absolutely superior core option over fleshraker, then the fallacy is yours.
Wildshape may not be perfect without the existence of the fleshraker, but it is certainly not as bad as it is with the existence of the fleshraker.


People look at a build that uses non-core material, see that the result is powerful, and blame the non-core, when really the core is an integral and equally "broken" part of the whole concept.

As I said above, the problem is that you must have a starting point for any analysis. With a game with expansions, the default for that is the core material. If that core material becomes worse with the expansion material, then the flaws are, by definition, inherent in the expansion material.


A lot of the things you mention are.... uh, not broken at all. Marshal is considered a rather weak class, actually, below the Fighter, Ninja, Hexblade, and Divine Mind.

Yes it is.
A barshal, a bard-marshal multiclass, is not.
Note how it is not the underpowered core bard class that causes the problem, or even the underpowered marshal expansion class, but the specific synergy between the two that is the issue.


Also, Master of Many Forms is massively underpowered for a Druid, given that it takes two dummy feats and completely kills your spellcasting and animal companion progression.

Unless you are going to be an arcane hierophant, an animal companion is nothing but an ablative meatshield.
Trading spellcasting for the ludicrous potential of special abilities with MoMF is well worth the trade.


Close-Quarter Fighting seems rather weak and I have no clue how one would attempt to abuse it since all it does is give you a little bit of grapple resistance.

You have obviously never seen it in action.
For any power damage fighter, Close-Quarters Fighting is an absolute destroyer of any creature with improved grapple that does not function with total prescience. It turns that special ability into the "Take 50+ damage every time you make an attack" special ability.


Arcane Strike, eh, it's nice if you're already a gish but gishes generally are pretty mediocre and sacrificing spells sucks; it's good on a Duskblade or especially a Swiftblade, but I don't really see why it deserves mention.

Again, you apparently have not seen it in action with certain builds where spell slots are useless except for gaining extra damage.


Anyway, I'm not forgetting synergy. I've actually mentioned it a few times. I take it for granted that adding options is always going to increase the general power level, simply because options give you more things to do that help your particular style. That's not what the OP was talking about though, he was talking about stuff that's over and above core as a deliberate marketing lure. And that's what I'm responding to.

And my initial response covered all of the aspects of increased power in expansion books, which includes both synergy and as a deliberate marketing lure.
The two do not exist in isolation. Attempting to analyze them as such will always lead to a flawed conclusion.


Claiming that core + stuff is greater than core is a rather pointless argument because you already have all of subset 2 in subset 1, so of course subset 1 will always at least provide the same options as subset 2 (eg. any wildshape you can figure out can always be improved by a wilding clasp etc).[QUOTE]

Exactly.

[QUOTE]The question at hand is, can we conclusively prove that items are added to splat books for the express purpose of being strictly more powerful than core options, and if so is that intended to be done for the purposes of increasing sales? Keep in mind that there is potentially both power creep and patching at work here.

Theoretically, yes.
Functionally, I cannot remember where various comments by WotC authors and others are that fundamentally acknowledge this, most especially the deliberate decision to include new "crunch" in every book because their research showed it sold better, as well as openly admitting fatal flaws in presenting balanced material due exclusively to attempts by designers to "game" their own system. (The example for that was the war troll, which was deliberately made a monstrous humanoid rather than a giant despite it being rather simply a troll, just so it could get the better monster type benefits of monstrous humanoid instead of giant.)
Mind you, I do not hold it against them for admitting. Rather the opposite. I consider it a sign of integrity and respect for both their material and their customers that they acknowledge it, rather than as some authors will, insisting that absolutely nothing in their book could possibly have any problems, and it is just the annoying players using the material the "wrong" way.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-27, 01:42 PM
What is an infinite wish combo?Candle of Invocation(core item) to gate in an Efreeti(Core monster)and use 2 of his 3 wish SLAs for whatever, then the third for another Candle of Invocation.
Polymorph was changed by a significant errata.Now it's more OP and still confusing. The Polymorph subschool introduced in PHBII is simpler and more balanced.
You just said it. If the expansion tricks is abusing something from core, then the flaw only exists because the expansion material exists. Without it, the core material is what it originally was.
You could, theoretically, assume the material was released in a different order, and construct some "alternative core" out of selected expansion material and use that as a starting point, but inevitably you will reach the same end result - that whatever "pseudo-core" material you have is acceptable, but when you add expansion material that was not designed in complete coordination with it, you wind up with power creep.So really the issue is that any option will either be more powerful in certain situations, less powerful in all situations, or identical in every way. And unless it is more powerful in at least 1 situation, no one will ever use it. It's not synergy that's your true issue, it's the additional options.
If they are trivial, then there would not exist so many power builds that are dependent on non-core material, thus rather thoroughly disproving your assertion.Druid 20. Spellcasting+Animal Companion+Wildshape. Non-core material can boost it, but even Core that is more powerful than any class in the game other than 5(2 of which are core). You'll have a hard time convincing me the Spirit Shaman is an example of power creep with the Druid around.
As I said above, the problem is that you must have a starting point for any analysis. With a game with expansions, the default for that is the core material. If that core material becomes worse with the expansion material, then the flaws are, by definition, inherent in the expansion material.Except D&D is more balanced with expansion material. Tome of Battle makes melee classes relevant, the Bard becomes useful, and the Rogue has ways around insta-gibbing. Yes, the fullcasters recieve power-ups, but the scale of the increase is much smaller.
Yes it is.
A barshal, a bard-marshal multiclass, is not.
Note how it is not the underpowered core bard class that causes the problem, or even the underpowered marshal expansion class, but the specific synergy between the two that is the issue.Except that it's not a problem. You're still a weaker build than a Core-only sorcerer. All this has done is give you a way of building an effective leader.
Unless you are going to be an arcane hierophant, an animal companion is nothing but an ablative meatshield.One that's on the same level as a Fighter. On it's own. Before even considering the Druid himself, the Druid's buff spells, or flanking from summons.
Trading spellcasting for the ludicrous potential of special abilities with MoMF is well worth the trade.Not really. Yes, your character becomes simpler to play, and gains a bit of melee capability, but you lose out on things like summoning spells, mass buffs, and a free cohort. There's a reason the tier list ranks MoMF as a decrease.
You have obviously never seen it in action.
For any power damage fighter, Close-Quarters Fighting is an absolute destroyer of any creature with improved grapple that does not function with total prescience. It turns that special ability into the "Take 50+ damage every time you make an attack" special ability.Except grapplng is nigh-useless after about level 8. By that point, the Casters have FoM, the trapmonkeys have Escape Artist +NI, and the bruisers are all running grapple checks that no PC can match.

Other than a core Druid.
Again, you apparently have not seen it in action with certain builds where spell slots are useless except for gaining extra damage.Because the best spellcasters don't deal damage. They use Black Tentacles, or Dominate Person, to end encounters. Gish builds are weak, and some non-core material can help balance them with fullcasters.
Functionally, I cannot remember where various comments by WotC authors and others are that fundamentally acknowledge this, most especially the deliberate decision to include new "crunch" in every book because their research showed it sold better,Because people can write their own fluff better than WotC's, but most cannot write better crunch.

Kylarra
2009-10-27, 01:57 PM
Well in light of that last post, I'm just gonna agree with Sstoopidtallkid.

Tiktakkat is arguing that splats must by definition involve power creep because more options are inherently "better" than "less options", assuming "less options" is a subset contained in "more options".

Other people are arguing that the power level is already shafted to high hell in core alone, so the idea of power creep is rather meaningless in the majority of cases.


~~~~
The OP is positing that Wizards is deliberately introducing powerful options for sales.

In light of this, I'll say that I doubt that WotC is specifically introducing powerful things in splatbooks order to increase sales. The majority of splatbook material is drek and it's the few pieces of synergy from each book that gets the most attention.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 02:11 PM
What is an infinite wish combo?
Polymorph was changed by a significant errata.

Already got mentioned, but yes, Candles of Invocation. It's hard to get much more broken than this.

Also, Epic spellcasting is core. That entire system is broken to the point where it invalidates every other form of brokenness.


You just said it. If the expansion tricks is abusing something from core, then the flaw only exists because the expansion material exists. Without it, the core material is what it originally was.

No. Plenty of stuff in core is broken on it's own. Very little expansion material is broken on it's own. On a book for book basis, core is by far the easiest to break, and most likely to combo with anything else.


You could, theoretically, assume the material was released in a different order, and construct some "alternative core" out of selected expansion material and use that as a starting point, but inevitably you will reach the same end result - that whatever "pseudo-core" material you have is acceptable, but when you add expansion material that was not designed in complete coordination with it, you wind up with power creep.

There are plenty of base classes. Why are three of the six tier one classes found in core?


If they are trivial, then there would not exist so many power builds that are dependent on non-core material, thus rather thoroughly disproving your assertion.

The previously mentioned tier one classes, Druid, Wizard and Cleric can be enhanced with non-core options to some degree, but they remain vastly powerful within core, since that's where the vast majority of their power is from.


Unless you can demonstrate an absolutely superior core option over fleshraker, then the fallacy is yours.
Wildshape may not be perfect without the existence of the fleshraker, but it is certainly not as bad as it is with the existence of the fleshraker.

You are demanding that options have an absolutely superior available core option. This is not the same as the premise that expansions are more powerful than core. You cannot judge the whole based on a single aspect.


As I said above, the problem is that you must have a starting point for any analysis. With a game with expansions, the default for that is the core material. If that core material becomes worse with the expansion material, then the flaws are, by definition, inherent in the expansion material.

And if the expansion lacks the problem without the addition of core, then they share in the blame, no?

For the amount of books represented, core forms a component of, or an entirety of, more broken things than any arbitrary selection of expansion books.

Thus, expansions cannot be more broken than core.

sonofzeal
2009-10-27, 02:42 PM
What is an infinite wish combo?
Polymorph was changed by a significant errata.
Infinite Wish Combo involves using the Wish spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Wish.htm) for a Candle of Invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation), to Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)in something with a multiple-use Wish SLA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti). Each of those Wishes becomes a Candle, each of those Candles becomes a Gate, and each of those Gates becomes three Wishes.


Polymorph was changed, but it's still massively overpowered. For extra lulz, use Share Spell to polymorph your Familiar at the same time. Treant is a good from, imo.


You just said it. If the expansion tricks is abusing something from core, then the flaw only exists because the expansion material exists. Without it, the core material is what it originally was.
You could, theoretically, assume the material was released in a different order, and construct some "alternative core" out of selected expansion material and use that as a starting point, but inevitably you will reach the same end result - that whatever "pseudo-core" material you have is acceptable, but when you add expansion material that was not designed in complete coordination with it, you wind up with power creep.

You know, I think we're entirely in agreement here, except in how we use our terms. To me, "Power Creep" is about gradually releasing more and more powerful material - the power creeps upward. This would be the case if late-era stuff was consistently and objectively more powerful than early-era stuff.


If they are trivial, then there would not exist so many power builds that are dependent on non-core material, thus rather thoroughly disproving your assertion.
No, unless I'm somehow asserting that non-core is utter garbage and can't hold a candle to core in any way. Of course you get some nasty stuff that uses non-Core material. You also get plenty of nasty stuff inside Core as well.

I can also turn this argument back on you: there are well over a hundred 3.5 D&D books, probably closer to two hundred. Three of those are core. Now, what's the proportional representation like in those power builds you talk about? What percentage of levels, feats, spells, etc? Is Core over-represented or under-represented?


Unless you can demonstrate an absolutely superior core option over fleshraker, then the fallacy is yours.
Wildshape may not be perfect without the existence of the fleshraker, but it is certainly not as bad as it is with the existence of the fleshraker.

Wildshape isn't "not perfect", it's seriously overpowered. Deinonychus is still devastating, and there's always the Polar Bear or Dire Bear for grapple or just straight mauling. Yes, Fleshraker added a good weapon to the armory, but it was already an extensive and powerful armory. Druids are overpowered in Core, and Wildshape is more powerful than abilities added elsewhere, such as Shapechange. Now, if Shapechange had been upgraded to Wildshape in PHB2, that to me would be "power creep".


As I said above, the problem is that you must have a starting point for any analysis. With a game with expansions, the default for that is the core material. If that core material becomes worse with the expansion material, then the flaws are, by definition, inherent in the expansion material.

By what definition? By the definition of "flaw"? Going by legal terms, we'd probably be talking about "liability" here, and whether it's "strict liability" or "shared liability". I'd strongly argue the latter; Fleshraker Druids is the fault of both Fleshrakers and Wildshape, and both share in the liability.



Yes it is.
A barshal, a bard-marshal multiclass, is not.
Note how it is not the underpowered core bard class that causes the problem, or even the underpowered marshal expansion class, but the specific synergy between the two that is the issue.
This, I'll grant.


Unless you are going to be an arcane hierophant, an animal companion is nothing but an ablative meatshield.
Trading spellcasting for the ludicrous potential of special abilities with MoMF is well worth the trade.
Hey, ablative meatshields are good things to have. And trading full-spellcasting for... a few (Ex) abilities? Not worth it. Also, by the time you get those (Ex) abilities at all, you're starting to get close to the sorts of levels where Shapechange (a core spell) opens up and blows MoMF totally out of the water.


You have obviously never seen it in action.
For any power damage fighter, Close-Quarters Fighting is an absolute destroyer of any creature with improved grapple that does not function with total prescience. It turns that special ability into the "Take 50+ damage every time you make an attack" special ability.
Monsters get to choose when to use Improved Grab or not. Also, that's highly situational, they're basically spending a feat (a valuable resource) to defend against one specific trick that can be defended in other ways as well. If I had a fighter who spent a feat on protecting himself against Improved Grab, and I throw a monster at him that uses Improved Grab, I think that's a fair game for him to get a couple extra hits in. Same as if there was a reach fighter with Combat Reflexes and/or Cleave, and I threw a pile of no-reach mooks at him. He'd tear through them, and rightly so because he's specialized in dealing with that sort of situation.



Again, you apparently have not seen it in action with certain builds where spell slots are useless except for gaining extra damage.
If spellslots are useless except for extra damage, you're probably doing something wrong. Swiftblade is the only really good use of the ability that I can see, maximizing the number of attacks they can make in a round and hence the advantage the trade offers. Still, it's highly situational and not all that stunning.


And my initial response covered all of the aspects of increased power in expansion books, which includes both synergy and as a deliberate marketing lure.
The two do not exist in isolation. Attempting to analyze them as such will always lead to a flawed conclusion.
I'm not trying to ignore synergy. I'm merely addressing the claim in the OP about power creep.

From Wikipedia, on power creep: "Usually, this means new content releases grow successively more powerful while older content becomes relatively underpowered."

I dispute that this has happened, with the one exception of Tome of Battle. Do you disagree? If so, I think the onus is on you to demonstrate your claim.

Doug Lampert
2009-10-27, 04:09 PM
Then there are things like Pun-Pun which require using more than 1 non-core source and thus, I don't think WOTC intended for it AND really, shouldn't be held accountable for that.
The core to the original Pun-Pun was the nearly infinite value that could be produced with Spell-like Wish due to the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 wish (unlimited magic items with the only cost being XP component cost and spell-likes don't pay component costs).

Candles of Invocation and the like are just a cheap way to access that exploit.

I spotted that within 2 days of 3.5 core coming out (not the candle, the fact that SOMEONE would figure out a way to get access to a spell-like wish for less than the real value of a wish much less a higher than 5000XP cost wish). My fix was nearly the first thing I typed into my houserules for 3.5.

This one wasn't hard, and WotC still hadn't fixed it the day 4th ed came out. They DON'T CARE about abusive rules exploits or infinite loops. They assume the DM will control them. That's not a problem, the DM will control loops.

The problem is that in an infinite loop one or more of the individual steps is ALWAYS broken even taken alone, if nothing in the loop gives more power out than goes in than at the end of the loop you're no stronger. And in not fixing the loop wizards also never fixed any of the broken steps.

Polymorph isn't broken because of flesh-renders or Firblogs. It's broken because it gives the target the physical ability scores and significant abilities of something else without regard to how good those abilities actually are and with no real control for that.

As a DM I can control for any one polymorph shape, but the concept was broken from the start. Either go with the fourth ed solution and changing shape can only give a very limited selection of additional abilities, which struck me as obvious: the spells are "many forms" in Greek and "Shapechange", none of the spells is labled "become creature", yet that's what they tried to write the spells to do. And the limit on power of the creature is HD, but HD aren't even INTENDED to be a reliable guide to monster power, that's what CR is supposed to do.

Same problem with the Planar Ally chain, and the Planar Binding chain, and...


Or Gate: Let's allow players to Call ANY creature with up to twice their CL in HD and gain control of it for CL rounds. Who the heck decided ANY of these is a good idea?

IIRC that was far WORSE in 3.0 than in 3.5. In 3.0 I don't think there was any limit on naming specific unique individuals. So your 17th level wizard gates a 34th level wizard and has him start gating in anything up to 68 HD.

All 17th+ level wizards were TRIVIALLY able to dominate anything up to double their HP, including other wizards, and without any of the limited ability to resist or save that an actual dominate spell would have given. Oy Vey!

Akal Saris
2009-10-27, 04:10 PM
I think power creep has occurred in most splatbooks, but not as an intentional method to sell books, except in a few cases.

I think that the Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, and PHB II were all designed with a higher power level in mind, and had intentionally powerful options included in order to make the books more appealing to players (and sell more copies). Most characters that I create use material from all 3 of these books. ToB and CC might be the same, but I think it's less intentional and more incidental to the newer melee classes (ToB) or poor quality control (CC).

I don't view power creep as a necessarily bad thing, by the way. Core lacks important options for several classes, and a lot of people often forget that Extra Rage or Divine Metamagic aren't core. If I want to be a bear-type character, using 2 more books lets me be a Werebear Druid 6/Bear Sentinel 6/Beastmaster (Bear) 2, while Core lets me be a Werebear Druid 14, then I think the splatbooks have accomplished a good thing.