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Belial_the_Leveler
2009-10-25, 11:27 AM
Step 1: shapechange into an Overseer
Step 2: use the Oversee'rs supernatural temporal stasis on said criminal.
Step 3: give the magical criminal a pair of antimagic shackles.
Step 4: make sure the criminal is warded from Freedom.


As long as he wears the shackles, the criminal can move around and act as he pleases but without his magic. If the shacles are ever taken out, the criminal permanently freezes in time. Being supernatural, the effect cannot be dispelled.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-25, 11:32 AM
Step 1: shapechange into an Overseer
Step 2: use the Oversee'rs supernatural temporal stasis on said criminal.
Step 3: give the magical criminal a pair of antimagic shackles.
Step 4: make sure the criminal is warded from Freedom.


As long as he wears the shackles, the criminal can move around and act as he pleases but without his magic. If the shacles are ever taken out, the criminal permanently freezes in time. Being supernatural, the effect cannot be dispelled.

Wait, so this is not redeeming jail, but holding cell type jail?

CoffeeIncluded
2009-10-25, 11:34 AM
...Can't Disjunction remove someone's spellcasting abilities?

The Glyphstone
2009-10-25, 11:36 AM
...Can't Disjunction remove someone's spellcasting abilities?
Only if you make them use it on an artifact, and it's a very low chance.

'Ward vs. Freedom' - so we're talking Epic level here...what's the point again?

Did this really need a new thread when you could be, say, updating Great Awakening?:smallcool:

tyckspoon
2009-10-25, 11:39 AM
...Can't Disjunction remove someone's spellcasting abilities?

Only if you use it to destroy an artifact and then roll poorly. Not a very reliable technique for a justice system.

Grumman
2009-10-25, 11:40 AM
...Can't Disjunction remove someone's spellcasting abilities?
You can't disjoin someone else's spellcasting ability, you can only disjoin your own (by disjoining an artifact and failing your will save). And given that you have to be a high level spellcaster (with the strong Will save that comes with it), that is even less likely.

CoffeeIncluded
2009-10-25, 11:47 AM
Ah. Okay, I didn't know that.

Jergmo
2009-10-25, 11:51 AM
Eh, I just went with an Arcatraz like solution.

Carcerus Arcanum is a fortress-prison that is atop a sheer-cliffed island off the coast of the mainland. The walls are manned by archers with Dispelling arrows, engineers manning ballistae that have Antimagic bolts, the ocean below is patrolled by Dragon Eels, and the interior, should you escape, is a confusing labyrinth of madness that is patrolled by elementals and golems. The staff is comprised of a fair number of low-to-mid level wizards and sorcerers, several high-level wizards, and the Custodian, an epic-level Guardian Lich who has control of a host of wraiths. Azkaban-y with the Dementors, but I felt it worked; they move quickly and through walls, and can drain you to death quickly. The main walls are lined with lead, the cells are enchanted with Antimagic Fields, and the entire prison is under various anti-Divination enchantments. An attempt to leave by non-staff will result in a triggered Alarm and Arcane Marks so that even if you did somehow get away, you could be tracked quickly. But if you're a wizard, your spellbook is gone anyway.

So, it's kind of like Azkaban, only it actually succeeds in keeping people inside.

Note: Naturally, multiple prisoners are put inside the same cells, to be cost efficient.

Special note: It can also be a fun sudden twist for the campaign's BBEG! Just think of it: This powerful group of spellcasters has been removing spellcasters that are in opposition to their own views for a long time. Their competition is waning. On top of this, they have a super-fortress that doubles as a maddening dungeon patrolled by monsters laden with traps and magic items, and is controlled by an epic level undead spellcaster.

Johel
2009-10-25, 12:56 PM
When you say "magical criminals", do you mean spellcasters or... any creatures with spell-like abilities ?

For spellcasters, if you can capture them alive :
Handcuff them so as to restrain the fingers and the wrists (or cut the hands), put a cloth in their mouth (or cut the tongue). Force them to wear a Splint mail armor. Finally, cast a Greater Dispel Magic on them. Only way to escape by himself is to use a metamagic "Still Silent Spell", which suppose he is at least 5th level. To take care of this, cast on him Mind Fog to make sure he'll fail the will saves, Bestow Curse for -6 in Wisdom, Feeblemind to drop his Intelligence and Charisma down to 1. Make sure he is affected by the spells. Check on him everyday.
From there, the prisoner will be :
Always fatigued (sleep in armor)
40% Arcane Spell Failure Chance (wear an armor)
Cannot cast with somatic components (hands not free)
Cannot cast with verbal components (mouth not free)
Cannot cast with material components (no access)
No spell book (no access)
No holy symbol (no access)
No contingencies (dispelled)
No Arcane spells at all (Feeblemind)
Only low-level, metamagic Divine spells (Bestow Curse)


If you want to release him, a Remove Curse and Heal can undo any damage with no side effect... unless you went for the "cut limbs and tongue" option, in which case a Regeneration spell is needed

For creatures with spell-like abilities and the likes, I suppose your method can work...

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 01:28 PM
Hmmm, the disjoin to remove spellcasting is interesting...whats the cheapest way to do this via artifacts?

Jergmo
2009-10-25, 01:36 PM
Hmmm, the disjoin to remove spellcasting is interesting...whats the cheapest way to do this via artifacts?

There isn't one. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2009-10-25, 01:51 PM
Hmmm, the disjoin to remove spellcasting is interesting...whats the cheapest way to do this via artifacts?

Make friends with a god who has literally nothing better to do with their godly existence than manufacture minor artifacts 24/7 specifically so you can force spellcasting criminals to Disjoin them, with scrolls if necessary.

The only part of that that actually requires money is the scrolls, so get your divine friend to make you the scrolls while they're at it.

Bayar
2009-10-25, 01:56 PM
Wouldnt it be easier just to hit him with ray of idiocy enough times ? Until he is like, at 3 or something ?

Emperor Tippy
2009-10-25, 02:07 PM
Why not just Mind Rape them? Instead of getting rid of their spellcasting, which is a valuable resource, just rebuild their minds so that they are loyal to you. Completely wipe out their old life and give them a new one.

It's cheaper, easier, just as secure, and gains you something valuable.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 02:11 PM
Ah, but if what if you want them to suffer with full knowledge of their defeat?

A special case, sure, but I could see it coming up.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-10-25, 02:11 PM
Why not just Mind Rape them? Instead of getting rid of their spellcasting, which is a valuable resource, just rebuild their minds so that they are loyal to you. Completely wipe out their old life and give them a new one.

It's cheaper, easier, just as secure, and gains you something valuable.

Yes. It's the punishment that keeps on serving society.

Jack_Simth
2009-10-25, 02:15 PM
Why not just Mind Rape them? Instead of getting rid of their spellcasting, which is a valuable resource, just rebuild their minds so that they are loyal to you. Completely wipe out their old life and give them a new one.

It's cheaper, easier, just as secure, and gains you something valuable.
Because if you find out you're wrong later on, there's exactly nothing you can do about it.

Plus, you know, it's [Evil].

Sir_Elderberry
2009-10-25, 02:17 PM
Or, you know, if we're getting to the point where "rewriting someone's mind into a brand-new person engineered to be completely loyal to you" is a morally justified punishment, I think the death penalty enters into the picture as well. Disintegrate the body afterwards.

lsfreak
2009-10-25, 02:23 PM
Because if you find out you're wrong later on, there's exactly nothing you can do about it.

Plus, you know, it's [Evil].

Miracle gets rid of it if you're wrong. Also, since the caster magically learns everything about the person, you could theoretically just re-implant the real memories. Depends on whether your knowledge of the person is magically retained or subject to real-world degradation.

It depends highly on the society as to whether this is anything close to the death penalty. In a rather free-will, moralistic society such as the West (at least compared to other places and/or times), the death penalty and mindrape might be close together in terms of severity; in other societies they could be completely separate. Mindrape could be the equivalent of hard labor, at the end of which your memories are returned and you go on your happy way.

Johel
2009-10-25, 02:27 PM
Because if you find out you're wrong later on, there's exactly nothing you can do about it.

Plus, you know, it's [Evil].

Exactly that !!
Though one can argue if Feeblemind shouldn't be so too...
After all, Mind Rape erase one's personality and memory but Feeblemind transform you into a vegetable. Even if it's reversible, is it really better ?

Also, in most settings, 17th spellcasters have better things to do than casting 9th level spells on every criminal spellcaster.

EDIT : since Miracle cost you XP, it's not exactly a reliable method to judge criminals on a daily basis.

Logalmier
2009-10-25, 02:35 PM
Because if you find out you're wrong later on, there's exactly nothing you can do about it.

That's why you use Contact Other Plane first to render the verdict. It's a lot more efficient than having a trial.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 02:36 PM
it really depends on their crime... and whether they resist arrest or not. If they fight the police trying to arrest them, kill them on the spot.

Although... did you see the movie where will smith plays a bumbling super hero who is the only one of his kind? and they try to put him in prison? yea... its like that. (for a high level caster)... for a low level caster you can just incarcerate them in a permanent wall of force.

Wizards are even easier to incarcerate, you take away their spellbook and force them to expend all their spells, they are a level 20 commoner until they find their spellbook again.

Dhavaer
2009-10-25, 02:36 PM
EDIT : since Miracle cost you XP, it's not exactly a reliable method to judge criminals on a daily basis.

Miracle only costs XP if you request an especially powerful Miracle.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 02:38 PM
Miracle only costs XP if you request an especially powerful Miracle.

the especially powerful miracles given are all XP free...
Miracle that does nothing but benefit you (example, increase your stats with inherant bonuses, craft an item, create gold, etc) costs XP... a miracle where you ask your god for something appropriate is free, at the god's discretion.

Emperor Tippy
2009-10-25, 02:55 PM
Because if you find out you're wrong later on, there's exactly nothing you can do about it.
Actually Miracle and Wish can undo it.

And it is impossible to convict an innocent person with Mind Rape. You get to see all of their memories with no deception. You know what they were thinking when they committed the crime, why they did it, whether or not it was illegal, everything. If you are in their mind and they are innocent, you just pull out and the problem is solved.

Lot's of lower level magic can be equally effective, some magical items work as well.


Plus, you know, it's [Evil].
Meh.


Also, in most settings, 17th spellcasters have better things to do than casting 9th level spells on every criminal spellcaster.
In the OP's situation you need access to Shapechange anyways so it's not really pertinent. And with scrolls, you don't need a level 17 caster. Also, if this is your standard punishment then you might just want to get an item to cast it.

Perhaps an intelligent magic item.

Crown of Judgment
Int: 19
Wis: 19
Cha: 10

Lesser Powers:
10 ranks in Knowledge: Laws of X (where X is your city/nation)
Detect Magic (to make sure that the person isn't under any magic that could effect the judgement)
2 other lesser powers (not sure which at the moment)

Greater Power:
Detect Thoughts at will

Dedicated Power:
The Ability to cast Mind Rape on it's wearer.

Special Purpose:
To judge the guilt or innocence of people accused of crimes in X and to reform them into helpful members of society.

Aligment:
Lawful Neutral

Description:
A circlet placed on the head of the accused after the accused has been knocked unconscious (unconscious people don't get will saves).

taltamir
2009-10-25, 03:12 PM
the god of law creates an ARTIFACT which he grants his followers... casters above level 5 who are convicted of great crimes can be stripped of their casting with said artifact, barring an act of god.

Prak
2009-10-25, 03:36 PM
How about a three fold punishment that should make it very difficult to cast:
1. Cut off their hands.
2. Cut out their tongue.
3. Administer a poison that does damage to their casting ability, possibly making it a required daily thing.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 03:58 PM
How about a three fold punishment that should make it very difficult to cast:
1. Cut off their hands.
2. Cut out their tongue.
3. Administer a poison that does damage to their casting ability, possibly making it a required daily thing.

talk about cruel and unusual... why not just execute them and be done with it?
If someone cut off my arms, tongue, and drugged me to be stupid i'd personally rather die...
Also, why all three?

Heck it is not even NEEDED for a wizard, take away his spell book. And even sorcerers have problems without a component pouch.

Prak
2009-10-25, 04:03 PM
cruel? yes.
Unusual? Not really, not for the era's D&D tends to simulate.

The reason for all three is insurance.
No hands? meh, learn "still spell."
No tongue? learn "silent spell"
Not enough of an ability to cast? That one's hard to get around.

And ancient cultures, in my understanding, didn't seek to rehabilitate criminals, but rather humiliate, ostracize and oppress them.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 04:07 PM
cruel? yes.
Unusual? Not really, not for the era's D&D tends to simulate.

The reason for all three is insurance.
No hands? meh, learn "still spell."
No tongue? learn "silent spell"
Not enough of an ability to cast? That one's hard to get around.

And ancient cultures, in my understanding, didn't seek to rehabilitate criminals, but rather humiliate, ostracize and oppress them.

and you waste all that government money on expensive poison, prison, guards,and food...

No hands and no tongues are fixed with a single casting of regenerate.
And not enough ability to cast prevents casting, period, regardless of your hands and tongues status.

Chopping off a theifs arm is much cheaper than building a prison, staffing it with guards, and feeding and caring for said prisoner.
Chopping off someones arm and THEN keeping him in prison makes no sense..

Also DnD is not ancient human culture. It has many races, gods of GOOD, LAW, and JUSTICE. who might object, etc etc.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-10-25, 04:34 PM
Ancient to Medieval societies usually didn't **** around with jails and large, standing forces of guards or city vigils or that crap. If you were convicted of a crime, you could expect a pretty summary punishment, only spending a few nights in the gaol before they branded you or burned you alive or cut out an eye or whatever. Of course, there are exceptions, some people might be kept prisoner under exceptional circumstances, but really it's not like the modern world where they would have large prisons with a permanent and regular staff payed for by the state.

Johel
2009-10-25, 04:36 PM
Not wanting to play the devil's advocate here but a wizard doesn't always need his spellbook. The feat Spell Mastery allows a wizard to memorize spells without his spell book. Even at 1st level, a wizard can potentially learn up to 4 spells this way.

Now, about cruelty, rather than cutting limbs, just encase the hands in a box or shackles specially designed to not let the fingers move. Then put a piece of cloth in the spellcaster's mouth. If he can't neither speak nor move his hands, he won't be able to use his most powerful spells, as only metamagic spells will work.

About the poison, it's going to be really expansive. That's it, more than just a few spells. But yes, if there's a easy way to cure the effects (and in D&D, there is), then I see no problem with the idea of temporary reducing somebody's mental stats.

EDIT :
+1 with Piedmon_Sama, here.
Prisons are nothing but "waiting rooms" in the Middle Age.
The whole point here is about keeping the caster locked long enough for the judge (whoever that is) to decide to punish him, kill him or relax him.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 04:52 PM
Not wanting to play the devil's advocate here but a wizard doesn't always need his spellbook. The feat Spell Mastery allows a wizard to memorize spells without his spell book. Even at 1st level, a wizard can potentially learn up to 4 spells this way.

Now, about cruelty, rather than cutting limbs, just encase the hands in a box or shackles specially designed to not let the fingers move. Then put a piece of cloth in the spellcaster's mouth. If he can't neither speak nor move his hands, he won't be able to use his most powerful spells, as only metamagic spells will work.

About the poison, it's going to be really expansive. That's it, more than just a few spells. But yes, if there's a easy way to cure the effects (and in D&D, there is), then I see no problem with the idea of temporary reducing somebody's mental stats.

EDIT :
+1 with Piedmon_Sama, here.
Prisons are nothing but "waiting rooms" in the Middle Age.
The whole point here is about keeping the caster locked long enough for the judge (whoever that is) to decide to punish him, kill him or relax him.

Very good points... a simpler and effective way would be "feeblemind"...


Ancient to Medieval societies usually didn't **** around with jails and large, standing forces of guards or city vigils or that crap. If you were convicted of a crime, you could expect a pretty summary punishment, only spending a few nights in the gaol before they branded you or burned you alive or cut out an eye or whatever. Of course, there are exceptions, some people might be kept prisoner under exceptional circumstances, but really it's not like the modern world where they would have large prisons with a permanent and regular staff payed for by the state.

if you were kept prisoner, it meant they wanted to torture you for a long long time... and torture meant sticking a sharp metal objects in your eyes, stomach, and genitalia at the very least.

Prak
2009-10-25, 05:09 PM
if you were kept prisoner, it meant they wanted to torture you for a long long time... and torture meant sticking a sharp metal objects in your eyes, stomach, and genitalia at the very least.

"Talk about cruel and unusual."

AstralFire
2009-10-25, 05:15 PM
Why not just Mind Rape them?

Because Mind Rape and other high power reality/memory alteration spells are boring as anything more than a setting backdrop. Boom, I cast a single spell I found in a book somewhere, everything goes beautifully. Brainwashing in most good literature is a very slow and deliberate process, no matter how magical the setting, and that's for a reason.

I think Belial's general solution is pretty nifty keen and I'll probably adapt a simplified version sometime.

Piedmon_Sama
2009-10-25, 05:18 PM
if you were kept prisoner, it meant they wanted to torture you for a long long time... and torture meant sticking a sharp metal objects in your eyes, stomach, and genitalia at the very least.

Or maybe you would just get a stern lecture and a letter sewn onto your shirt. Let's not go crazy with generalizations one way or the other when it comes to history now.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-10-25, 05:26 PM
Because Mind Rape and other high power reality/memory alteration spells are boring as anything more than a setting backdrop. Boom, I cast a single spell I found in a book somewhere, everything goes beautifully. Brainwashing in most good literature is a very slow and deliberate process, no matter how magical the setting, and that's for a reason.

We're talking about how to punish a criminal, not how to write about the punishment of one. Tippy's suggestion is the most pragmatic way to solve the problem in a mage run society. It's tyrannical to be sure, but the misuse of agic is a serious offense.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 05:26 PM
Or maybe you would just get a stern lecture and a letter sewn onto your shirt. Let's not go crazy with generalizations one way or the other when it comes to history now.

a letter on your shirt isn't PRISON ;p

Mewtarthio
2009-10-25, 05:36 PM
The only real problem with mind rape is that whoever carries out the sentence has to investigate the the intimate thoughts of the criminals. That might end up taking a psychological toll after a while.


Plus, you know, it's [Evil].

Just use sanctify the wicked instead. :smallwink:

Jack_Simth
2009-10-25, 05:48 PM
Actually Miracle and Wish can undo it.

... and you're going to find a caster to burn 5,000 xp (this function is not in the standard list of miracle stuff, after all, and quite reasonably qualifies as a "greater request") out of the goodness of his heart to fix things, when the PHB paid spellcasting section quite clearly lists such spells as being "not commonly available".

Somehow that doesn't strike me as something that will actually happen.


And it is impossible to convict an innocent person with Mind Rape. You get to see all of their memories with no deception. You know what they were thinking when they committed the crime, why they did it, whether or not it was illegal, everything. If you are in their mind and they are innocent, you just pull out and the problem is solved.


Oh, sure you can.

A miscommunication between the judge and the guy carrying out the sentence will do that just fine - if the guy doing the Mindrape thinks that this sentance was passed on him for tax evasion, when it was really for murder, then when the guy doing the mindrape doesn't find a murder but does find tax evasion, he continues to carry out the murder-level sentence on a fine-level crime.

If the guy doing the mindrape ends up with a mindset of "I'm not here to judge, I'm here to carry out a sentence" then when the guy doing the mindrape finds out he didn't actually do it, he may not pull out.

You're assuming that Mindrape is fully flawless - but there's other spells that can alter memories - Core, even (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/modifyMemory.htm), and there's other spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) to make it so you don't see the magical aura. If a memory has been planted in the guy, you read it with Mindrape. And then when you're done, you put it back in an instantaneous manner, and all evidence of what the original memory was is gone - especially if someone later comes by and dispels the original cover memory (it's now fully redundant, after all).

You're assuming the guy doing the mindrape is totally trustworthy and utterly above reproach. That going through the lives and heads of mass murderers, rapists, and the like will leave him unchanged. Meanwhile, when he does find an innocent man...

The executioner now knows all account numbers and passwords of the innocent man.
The executioner now knows all trade secrets of the innocent man.
The executioner now knows all locations where the innocent man stores his wealth.
The executioner now knows all secrets that have been entrusted to the innocent man.
The executioner now knows exactly what it's like to sleep with the wife of the innocent man.

...and so on, and so forth. The executioner can now drain accounts, sell the guy's secrets to his business competition, ruin his relationships, and so on. Unless he's totally trustworthy. And any enforcement on the executioner being totally trustworthy is just moving things a step.

Alternately, you'll never convict anybody: almost everyone considers themselves justified in their own eyes... and someone who's just lived their entire lives from their perspective is very likely to agree.

That's why you use Contact Other Plane first to render the verdict. It's a lot more efficient than having a trial.
In the very bast case, that gives you:
An 88% chance of an accurate answer.
A 2% chance of the outsider saying "I don't know"
A 9% chance of the outsider lying to you outright.
A 1% chance of the outsider wanting to lie to you, but not actually knowing, and so making something up.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 05:55 PM
.If the guy doing the mindrape ends up with a mindset of "I'm not here to judge, I'm here to carry out a sentence" then when the guy doing the mindrape finds out he didn't actually do it, he may not pull out.


He is a MIND RAPIST! he is allowed to rape minds for a living. Him finding out that the victim of his EVIL with a capital E spell is innocent and wrongly convicted is not gonna make him stop the rape...

Ormur
2009-10-25, 05:57 PM
If we're talking about more humane methods wouldn't antimagic cells using the rules from Stronghold Builder's Guide be sufficient for most casters? They're cheaper and more comfortable than antimagic shackles and most casters don't have the physical stats for escaping prison without magic. Build it well, use non-casters to guard the prisoners and other defenses to block outside help (put it in a dungeon or something).

However keeping a vow of poverty unarmed combat swordsage locked up might be problematic. He can just headbutt himself through the walls.

deuxhero
2009-10-25, 05:59 PM
Some homebrew spell to cut them off from magic (like a bad disjunction)? It could have a high casting time that prevents it from being used in combat.

Johel
2009-10-25, 06:02 PM
In the very bast case, that gives you:
An 88% chance of an accurate answer.
A 2% chance of the outsider saying "I don't know"
A 9% chance of the outsider lying to you outright.
A 1% chance of the outsider wanting to lie to you, but not actually knowing, and so making something up.

Not even taking into account the "mental backslash" risk.
Your average 9th level wizard must make a DC 16 Intelligence check.
If he got a good 20 in Intelligence, that means he needs a 11/20 to succeed.
That's 50% to get reduced to moron status for 5 weeks.



However keeping a vow of poverty unarmed combat swordsage locked up might be problematic. He can just headbutt himself through the walls.

If somebody breaks your anti-magic cell with his head, I guess you'll just go with "Capture him and slit his throat on the spot" kinda MO.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 06:04 PM
If we're talking about more humane methods wouldn't antimagic cells using the rules from Stronghold Builder's Guide be sufficient for most casters? They're cheaper and more comfortable than antimagic shackles and most casters don't have the physical stats for escaping prison without magic. Build it well, use non-casters to guard the prisoners and other defenses to block outside help (put it in a dungeon or something).

However keeping a vow of poverty unarmed combat swordsage locked up might be problematic. He can just headbutt himself through the walls.

yes, a permanent anti magic field would work.

sentaku
2009-10-25, 06:06 PM
You're assuming the guy doing the mindrape is totally trustworthy and utterly above reproach. That going through the lives and heads of mass murderers, rapists, and the like will leave him unchanged. Meanwhile, when he does find an innocent man...

The executioner now knows all account numbers and passwords of the innocent man.
The executioner now knows all trade secrets of the innocent man.
The executioner now knows all locations where the innocent man stores his wealth.
The executioner now knows all secrets that have been entrusted to the innocent man.
The executioner now knows exactly what it's like to sleep with the wife of the innocent man.

...and so on, and so forth. The executioner can now drain accounts, sell the guy's secrets to his business competition, ruin his relationships, and so on. Unless he's totally trustworthy. And any enforcement on the executioner being totally trustworthy is just moving things a step.

Alternately, you'll never convict anybody: almost everyone considers themselves justified in their own eyes... and someone who's just lived their entire lives from their perspective is very likely to agree.

In the very bast case, that gives you:
An 88% chance of an accurate answer.
A 2% chance of the outsider saying "I don't know"
A 9% chance of the outsider lying to you outright.
A 1% chance of the outsider wanting to lie to you, but not actually knowing, and so making something up.

That is why you set up a system like the following

1. One or more people to mindrape criminals and people who will be criminals, in each city depending on population.
2. Then you have a overseers that mindrape the city mindrapers to prevent them from abusing there position.
3. Then tippy mindrapes the overseers, so that they can't abuse there position. Tippy can't abuse the information he gets because he already knew the information.

Logalmier
2009-10-25, 06:16 PM
How about a three fold punishment that should make it very difficult to cast:
1. Cut off their hands.
2. Cut out their tongue.
3. Administer a poison that does damage to their casting ability, possibly making it a required daily thing.

...Or you could just add a room with a permanent Symbol of Spell Loss. It drains spells and spells slots prepared. Then just take the wizard's spellbook away. For sorcerers take them to the spell loss room daily so that they never have any spell slots available. It's a much more humane way of imprisoning magic users.

Alternatively you could make a tippyverse style prison, with traps of Anti-Magic Ray placed at regular intervals around the prison. The rays are translucent, so the inmates wouldn't even know they were activating the traps. Guards would make sure that the prisoners keep moving and activating the traps. In the prison cells there would be Anti-Magic Ray traps that were on a time based trigger, activating every other round.

Glimbur
2009-10-25, 06:18 PM
RE: Contact Other Plane.

In the very bast case, that gives you:
An 88% chance of an accurate answer.
A 2% chance of the outsider saying "I don't know"
A 9% chance of the outsider lying to you outright.
A 1% chance of the outsider wanting to lie to you, but not actually knowing, and so making something up.

Cast it twice. If the answers differ cast it a third time. That's a reasonable failure rate. The DC 16 Int check is difficult, but I'm confident that buff spells exist that will make that trivial.

Jack_Simth
2009-10-25, 06:21 PM
That is why you set up a system like the following

One or more people to mindrape criminals and people who will be criminals, in each city depending on population. Then you have a overseers that mindrape the city mindrapers to prevent them from abusing there position. Then tippy mindrapes the overseers, so that they can't abuse there position. Tippy can't abuse the information he gets because he already knew the information.
... and per the description of the Mindrape Spell, as listed in the Book of Vile Darkness: "Severe changes to personality and changes to alignment can be corrected by a break enchantment spell" - now, granted, Break Enchantment specifies that if Dispel Magic wouldn't do it, it'll only work if it's 5th or lower... but specific overrides the general, and Mindrape calls out Break Enchantment as something that'll work, by name, while Break Enchantment doesn't directly name Mindrape as something it won't function against.

And that CG bard gets Song of Freedom at 12th.

No, that isn't necessarily going to work.

Logalmier
2009-10-25, 06:26 PM
In the very bast case, that gives you:
An 88% chance of an accurate answer.
A 2% chance of the outsider saying "I don't know"
A 9% chance of the outsider lying to you outright.
A 1% chance of the outsider wanting to lie to you, but not actually knowing, and so making something up.

I consider an 88% chance of a fair verdict to be greater than the chance of a fair verdict in a trial with no magic. There might be corruption in the court, or there might be an incompetent jury box (the majority of these people are peasants after all.) There could be a whole host of things that go wrong. Whereas with a diety there's just a 10% chance of you handing down an unfair verdict.

If I were in a trial, I'd choose the diety option.

Soras Teva Gee
2009-10-25, 06:32 PM
So help me shouldn't a purely mundane straitjacket-equivalent and gag combo plus item confiscation work on some 90% of casters in a setting. You would need the Still, Silent, and Eschew Materials feats. How many builds have three feats laying around for limited circumstances like this? Four if you are a wizard, and arguably none of this helps a divine casters if you simply interpret praying for spells as needing more then silent concentration for an hour.

I don't see holding casters as big a problem as catching them in the first place ya know? Which should include stripping any spells prepared out of the relevant classes but I digress...

taltamir
2009-10-25, 06:34 PM
I really don't see how gods of law and justice could stay out of the whole thing... we are talking about a hypothetical world of MAGIC where there are a bunch of gods with very strong opinions who personally intervene...

Bad casters get sent to an island prison where the gods of good personally set up a permanent anti magic field covering the whole island...

Logalmier
2009-10-25, 06:35 PM
So help me shouldn't a purely mundane straitjacket-equivalent and gag combo plus item confiscation work on some 90% of casters in a setting. You would need the Still, Silent, and Eschew Materials feats. How many builds have three feats laying around for limited circumstances like this? Four if you are a wizard, and arguably none of this helps a divine casters if you simply interpret praying for spells as needing more then silent concentration for an hour.

Yeah, but is that as cool as making a super awesome wizard prison?:smallbiggrin:


I don't see holding casters as big a problem as catching them in the first place ya know? Which should include stripping any spells prepared out of the relevant classes but I digress...

A gun that shoots Anti-Magic Rays? (You can make one easily with the trap creation rules.)

Jack_Simth
2009-10-25, 06:45 PM
I consider an 88% chance of a fair verdict to be greater than the chance of a fair verdict in a trial with no magic. There might be corruption in the court, or there might be an incompetent jury box (the majority of these people are peasants after all.) There could be a whole host of things that go wrong. Whereas with a diety there's just a 10% chance of you handing down an unfair verdict.

If I were in a trial, I'd choose the diety option.
You're forgetting:
The deity doesn't tell you.
He tells the guy who casts the spell. Who then tells you whatever he wants.

That really doesn't help things, honestly.

Logalmier
2009-10-25, 06:48 PM
You're forgetting:
The deity doesn't tell you.
He tells the guy who casts the spell. Who then tells you whatever he wants.

That really doesn't help things, honestly.

The JUDGE is the one who is supposed to cast the spell. And if the judge is corrupt, then that renders the entire argument moot.

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-25, 06:51 PM
There is only one way.
http://blog.sellsiusrealestate.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/executioner.gif
No, I don't know why he's only wearing his underpants.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 06:53 PM
The JUDGE is the one who is supposed to cast the spell. And if the judge is corrupt, then that renders the entire argument moot.

and judges are never corrupt?

Also, do you realize how few people in the world can actually cast such a spell?

Logalmier
2009-10-25, 06:53 PM
There is only one way.
http://blog.sellsiusrealestate.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/executioner.gif
No, I don't know why he's only wearing his underpants.

Nothing fresh air can't fix.:smalltongue:

Logalmier
2009-10-25, 06:56 PM
Also, do you realize how few people in the world can actually cast such a spell?

The original argument was about shapechanging into an Overseer and casting temporal statis on multiple prisoners. This is obviously a high magic world we're talking about here.

Jack_Simth
2009-10-25, 07:05 PM
The JUDGE is the one who is supposed to cast the spell. And if the judge is corrupt, then that renders the entire argument moot.
Not really.

See, in an actual courtroom, the judge has limits on how much he can alter the verdict without being blatantly corrupt - in a modern USA courtroom, at a minimum, you have two attorneys, the court recorder, and potentially a jury of 12 - all of whom can bear witness to events (especially the court recorder!). A corrupt judge can get some chunks of evidence thrown out / supressed, and that can lean the verdict, and the judge passes sentence once a verdict is reached... but there's sharp limits on what he can do without being very, very obvious (which causes a mistrial, and gets a different judge).

If the verdict rests on a single spellcaster's word, it's a different story entirely.

Additionally, depending on the DM, multiple castings may or may not help - there's a few pesky notes here and there in the RAW that says multiple divinations on the same subject use the same result....

Logalmier
2009-10-25, 07:21 PM
Not really.

See, in an actual courtroom, the judge has limits on how much he can alter the verdict without being blatantly corrupt - in a modern USA courtroom, at a minimum, you have two attorneys, the court recorder, and potentially a jury of 12 - all of whom can bear witness to events (especially the court recorder!). A corrupt judge can get some chunks of evidence thrown out / supressed, and that can lean the verdict, and the judge passes sentence once a verdict is reached... but there's sharp limits on what he can do without being very, very obvious (which causes a mistrial, and gets a different judge).

If the verdict rests on a single spellcaster's word, it's a different story entirely.

Additionally, depending on the DM, multiple castings may or may not help - there's a few pesky notes here and there in the RAW that says multiple divinations on the same subject use the same result....

There are multiple ways of making it so that the judge cannot lie. There could be a panel of mages that have detect thoughts active. The chances of them all being corrupt are very slim. Or you could bind an outsider who can cast Contact Other Plane, and order him to tell the truth about what the diety he contacted said.

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-25, 07:51 PM
We just used Bestow Curse their spellcasting stat to 1.

Alternatively: get a Medusa or a Basilisk and petrify them. Then break up parts of the statue and put each piece in a different plane.

Soras Teva Gee
2009-10-25, 07:56 PM
Regarding magic and the legal system:

In the modern American system the standard of proof for criminal prosecution is "beyond a reasonable doubt" plus heavily favors the defendant on the philosophy that it is better the guilty walk free then innocents suffer. So a spell with any sort of appreciable chance of failure would likely be rendered inadmissible in court as evidence. Contact Other Plane is right out, aside from it being inherently dangerous since statistically it causes brain damage in 1/20 uses minimum. Oh yeah and ticks off the gods to be even moderately accurate.

Back on the legal side, the civil protections required covers most magic. It would be seen as variations of invasions of privacy, invasion of a sentient being (all mind control) or violation of the fifth amendment No you-cant-lie-spells interrogation or reading thoughts. Nevermind if allowed it would simply weaken trust in magic's veracity over time when defense councils attack caster crediblity, because twelve peers are not likely to have ranks in Spellcraft.

But the modern system is no fun at all.

I think it frankly makes sense for a fantasy near medieval system with access to such magics to use them. The notion of 'fair trial' would simply never evolve to begin with. Values Dissonance eat your heart out.

Logalmier
2009-10-25, 07:59 PM
Alternatively: get a Medusa or a Basilisk and petrify them. Then break up parts of the statue and put each piece in a different plane.

I think that would kill them. It would be hilarious if that actually did work however.

Warden: Now that your prison sentence is over we recovered all of the bits we broke you into and glued them together. Any questions?

Inmate: Where's my thumb?

Warden: We couldn't find it, so we replaced it with a toothpick. I assure you we did everything we could.


Regarding magic and the legal system:

In the modern American system the standard of proof for criminal prosecution is "beyond a reasonable doubt" plus heavily favors the defendant on the philosophy that it is better the guilty walk free then innocents suffer. So a spell with any sort of appreciable chance of failure would likely be rendered inadmissible in court as evidence. Contact Other Plane is right out, aside from it being inherently dangerous since statistically it causes brain damage in 1/20 uses minimum. Oh yeah and ticks off the gods to be even moderately accurate.

Back on the legal side, the civil protections required covers most magic. It would be seen as variations of invasions of privacy, invasion of a sentient being (all mind control) or violation of the fifth amendment No you-cant-lie-spells interrogation or reading thoughts. Nevermind if allowed it would simply weaken trust in magic's veracity over time when defense councils attack caster crediblity, because twelve peers are not likely to have ranks in Spellcraft.

This is Big Logalmier, and he does not approve of this message. Remember, he's watching you.

Soras Teva Gee
2009-10-25, 08:18 PM
This is Big Logalmier, and he does not approve of this message. Remember, he's watching you.

Of course doubt magic is double unplusgood

quiet1mi
2009-10-25, 09:03 PM
two choices...
Feeblemind + hard labor...

regular Spell thief visits + regular prison + forced use of splint armor (prison uniform)

CockroachTeaParty
2009-10-26, 12:12 AM
You could always have a giant lion turtle teach someone how to ENERGY BEND and rob the criminal of their spellcasting powers...

Johel
2009-10-26, 02:25 AM
The JUDGE is the one who is supposed to cast the spell. And if the judge is corrupt, then that renders the entire argument moot.


Wizard A casts Contact Other Plane
Wizard B casts Mind Fog on AREA
Wizard A steps in AREA
Suspect steps in AREA
Wizard C steps in AREA
Cleric D casts Zone of Truth on AREA
Wizard C casts Detect Thoughts on Wizard A
Wizard C casts Detect Thoughts on Suspect
Cleric D asks to Suspect if Suspect is guilty of [insert CRIME]
Cleric D asks to Wizard C if Suspect said the truth and didn't hide anything
Cleric D asks to Wizard A if Suspect is guilty of [insert CRIME]
Cleric D asks to Wizard C if Wizard A said the truth and didn't hide anything


Yes+Yes+Yes+Yes = Suspect is sentenced to [PUNISHMENT]
Yes+Yes+Yes+No = Wizard A is arrested. Repeat process later.
Yes+Yes+No+Yes = Repeat process later.
Yes+Yes+No+No = Wizard A is arrested. Repeat process later.

Yes+No+Yes+Yes = Repeat process later
Yes+No+Yes+No =Wizard A is arrested. Repeat process later.
Yes+No+Yes+Yes = Repeat process later.
Yes+No+No+No = Wizard A is arrested. Repeat process later.

No+Yes+Yes+Yes = Repeat process later.
No+Yes+Yes+No = Wizard A is arrested. Repeat process later.
No+Yes+No+Yes = Suspect is FREE
No+Yes+No+No = Wizard A is arrested. Repeat process later.

No+No+Yes+Yes = Suspect is sentenced to [PUNISHMENT]
No+No+Yes+No = Wizard A is arrested. Repeat process later.
No+No+No+Yes = Repeat process later.
No+No+No+No = Wizard A is arrested. Repeat process later.

Yes = "Yes, he is guilty" or "Yes, he said the truth and didn't hide anything"
No = Any other answer
To false the system, at least A and C have to be both corrupted and both succeed all their Will saves.
The system can be made safer by having B casts Detect Thoughts on C but you want to keep B at full battle power if anything goes wrong.

If we are going to cast 9th level spells, we can afford two 5th level spells and a few 2nd level ones.

Zen Master
2009-10-26, 02:40 AM
I'd simply create a demi-plane where magic doesn't work, and planeshift the convicted there. Good luck getting out, guys - see ya in the afterlife.

Of course you can add further restrictions and guards and so on - but I'm not too sure there's any need.

Prak
2009-10-26, 11:51 AM
He is a MIND RAPIST! he is allowed to rape minds for a living. Him finding out that the victim of his EVIL with a capital E spell is innocent and wrongly convicted is not gonna make him stop the rape...

Eh, depends, there is the "Lawful Evil" alignment. but that just means, usually, that he'll find a way to make the law satisfy his appetite for evil, satisfy his evil within the law, or satisfy his evil according to a moral code.


Bad casters get sent to an island prison where the gods of good personally set up a permanent anti magic field covering the whole island...
Why, exactly, would they bother? It's usually more likely that you'll find evil gods intervening to that degree...