Good classes for a dragon?

[Woodsman]

So, for an epic level (23) gestalt game I'm applying to, I'm thinking about playing as a dragon.

The problem is, I really cannot decide what classes would work well with a dragon (no specific kind yet). I'm only allowed one PrC, and there are no psionics.

Any suggestions on what combos would work well?

[Prak]

pretty much anything. Rogue is absurd, though. Especially if you can turn your breath weapon into an attack somehow.

[Grumman]

How about Abjurant Champion, for a start? It would get you +9 Mage Armour, full B.A.B. and increase your caster level to equal to your B.A.B.

ETA: Never mind, didn't notice that you said it was gestalt.

[Starbuck_II]

So, for an epic level (23) gestalt game I'm applying to, I'm thinking about playing as a dragon.

The problem is, I really cannot decide what classes would work well with a dragon (no specific kind yet).

Any suggestions on what combos would work well?

Since you cast as a Sorceror (even some cleric spells) maybe a Prc. Incantrix if you are metamagic dragon. Nightmare spinner if a fear dragon. Etc.

[Woodsman]

I can only have one PrC at a time.

And no psionics.

*Goes to edit OP*

[tyckspoon]

Depends on what kind of dragon you're going to be and how many levels you're going to work with. How is the HD+LA going to be handled for this gestalt? All on one side, with full class progression on the other? If so, and you have 23 class levels to play with, you can do pretty much whatever you want. Dragons lend themselves to just about everything except Dex-based builds (and you can still be good at that, you just don't get any bonuses.)

Personally, I would go with a Totemist. Dragons are already good at natural weapons, and Totemist makes it better. Put Sorcerer on whatever isn't filled by Dragon HD on the other side to capitalize on your natural spellcasting.

[Woodsman]

Problem is, you can't get really high in natural sorcerer spell-casting when you're limited by age.

Totemist isn't really my style. I'm OK with Incarnum, but it's not something I normally like to use.

[taltamir]

dragons inherently cast as a sorcerer... you can take one feat to make it wizard instead... and dragons get some cleric spells to cast as a sorcerer as a bonus.

I am not sure about class, a lot of them will not stack since you already get those things from being a dragon.

[SilveryCord]

Play a level 22 druid with epic dragon wild shape. Flavor it as him being a dragon who sometimes takes human form. Antimagic fields make his arcane blood all whacked out, so instead of being de-magicked his shapeshifting activates.

Hey, at least you can get epic spellcasting.

[Woodsman]

Play a level 22 druid with epic dragon wild shape. Flavor it as him being a dragon who sometimes takes human form. Antimagic fields make his arcane blood all whacked out, so instead of being de-magicked his shapeshifting activates.

Hey, at least you can get epic spellcasting.

Prerequesites: Knowledge (Nature) 30 ranks.

Can't do that 'til level 27.

[Godskook]

I can only have one PrC at a time.

Does this mean 'finish what you start', or are you allowed only one?

As a slight tangent, have you looked at DFA? With 2 good saves, it gestalts well and gives you a lot of the feel of being a dragon without any 'baggage' of being a 'NPC-only' build.

Also, what do you want the character to do? What's the other side of your progression going to be?

[Prak]

I re-iterate, a dragon rogue is insane, especially if you can breath fire (w/e) as an attack roll.

[Jergmo]

You cannot use a breath weapon as an attack roll.

But still, dragon rogue. You've got high charisma, take Improved Feint, use your attribute points to shoot Dex up as high as possible since everything else is already awesome. Then, make a full attack.

[Mando Knight]

First, see if your DM will let you stack Sorcerer casting with your natural Sorcerer casting. Even if not, it's worth a look. Depending on your color, Cleric could also be a good choice. Ignore any melee classes, since you've already got that in the form of your Dragon HD. Just pick a casting class and run with it.

...Ultimate Magus is another idea.

[Woodsman]

Does this mean 'finish what you start', or are you allowed only one?

As a slight tangent, have you looked at DFA? With 2 good saves, it gestalts well and gives you a lot of the feel of being a dragon without any 'baggage' of being a 'NPC-only' build.

Also, what do you want the character to do? What's the other side of your progression going to be?

One. period.

I've looked at DFA and Dragon Shaman, but I'm not really sure about those. Seems kind of redundant.

He's a good guy, but I'm not sure what I want him to do. Either combat or casting is good for him.

[Johel]

Young Silver Dragon (13HD) has an LA of +5
That's a ECL 18 character.
That leaves you 5 levels.
What about going for a full wizard ?
Can't go wrong with that...

[Prak]

You cannot use a breath weapon as an attack roll.

But still, dragon rogue. You've got high charisma, take Improved Feint, use your attribute points to shoot Dex up as high as possible since everything else is already awesome. Then, make a full attack.

I know it's not a standard option, though there may be a feat or spell that'd allow it...

[Jergmo]

I know it's not a standard option, though there may be a feat or spell that'd allow it...

Nein. Your breath weapon is save for half, and that's just the way it is. There aren't any dragon feats or such that allows you to do that, at least not in the Draconomicon.

Edit: Besides, a dragon's full attack sneak attack bonus is much more awesome than it being applied to a breath weapon.

[taltamir]

Prerequesites: Knowledge (Nature) 30 ranks.

Can't do that 'til level 27.

I thought it was 20 ranks? anyways epic spell casting is beyond broken...

+6 int headband shaves off 3 levels...
Skill focus knowledge (nature) shaves off another 3 levels...
each 2 points above 10 int you have shave off another level. (as a dragon, you should have some pretty good int).

[Godskook]

I've looked at DFA and Dragon Shaman, but I'm not really sure about those. Seems kind of redundant.

I was suggesting DFA as a substitute for an actual dragon, but you sound pretty determined.

[Jergmo]

I thought it was 20 ranks? anyways epic spell casting is beyond broken...

+6 int headband shaves off 3 levels...
Skill focus knowledge (nature) shaves off another 3 levels...
each 2 points above 10 int you have shave off another level. (as a dragon, you should have some pretty good int).

Those bonuses don't count, as it's for skill ranks.

[Woodsman]

I was suggesting DFA as a substitute for an actual dragon, but you sound pretty determined.

That was the idea.

[taltamir]

Those bonuses don't count, as it's for skill ranks.

the slots ignore you effective skill and only at your purchased ranks?

Ok, I went and looked it up:
A spellcaster who can cast epic spells has a number of
open epic spell slots per day equal to one-tenth her ranks
in the Knowledge skill appropriate to the spell and the
caster’s class. Knowledge (arcana) is appropriate for
arcane casters, and Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge
(nature) is appropriate for divine casters. Thus, a spell-
caster with 24 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 31 ranks
in Knowledge (religion) could cast two arcane epic spells
and three divine epic spells in any 24-hour period–
think of it as two arcane epic spell slots and three divine
epic spell slots. The rules for rest between casting a day’s
allotment of epic spells are the same as for rest required
to prepare standard spells. If the caster doesn’t use up a
day’s allotment of epic spell slots, the unused slots remain
available whether or not the spellcaster receives appro-
priate rest.

1. It is every TEN ranks gives a slot... so at level 21 you should have 24 ranks, thus, 2 slots.
2. there is no mention on whether or not skill focus and int bonuses count or not, I see no reason for them to NOT count..
a. you get extra spell slots from such bonuses to begin with; although you could limit it for those abilities, it still doesn't matter, all your epic spells are DC0 and make you a god.
b As for skill focus, there is no point to taking that skill focus otherwise.

[Zaydos]

I'd say juvenile shadow dragon (draconomicon, 13 HD and +4 LA) might be fun with a wizard or sorcerer. It gets 1 level of natural casting (meh) but it gets +8 to all mental ability scores, throw in a +6 headband of intellect, and take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus and put an 18 in your casting stat +5 from level up and you've got a 37 Casting Stat and DC of 23 (25 with chosen school) + Spell level or with +5 tome 42 stat and DC 26 (28 with chosen school) + Spell level. Not necessarily the best but go batman and use save-or-Xs.

Another would be young silver dragon as stated above mix with totemist or something which benefits from high con and take Quicken Breath and Heighten Breath. You only breath 1/encounter but everything in the cone has to make a DC 16 + 2 times your Con modifier fort save or be paralyzed for 4-9 rounds.

[Jergmo]

the slots ignore you effective skill and only at your purchased ranks?

Ok, I went and looked it up:
A spellcaster who can cast epic spells has a number of
open epic spell slots per day equal to one-tenth her ranks
in the Knowledge skill appropriate to the spell and the
caster’s class. Knowledge (arcana) is appropriate for
arcane casters, and Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge
(nature) is appropriate for divine casters. Thus, a spell-
caster with 24 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and 31 ranks
in Knowledge (religion) could cast two arcane epic spells
and three divine epic spells in any 24-hour period–
think of it as two arcane epic spell slots and three divine
epic spell slots. The rules for rest between casting a day’s
allotment of epic spells are the same as for rest required
to prepare standard spells. If the caster doesn’t use up a
day’s allotment of epic spell slots, the unused slots remain
available whether or not the spellcaster receives appro-
priate rest.

1. It is every TEN ranks gives a slot... so at level 21 you should have 24 ranks, thus, 2 slots.
2. there is no mention on whether or not skill focus and int bonuses count or not, I see no reason for them to NOT count..
a. you get extra spell slots from such bonuses to begin with; although you could limit it for those abilities, it still doesn't matter, all your epic spells are DC0 and make you a god.
b As for skill focus, there is no point to taking that skill focus otherwise.

It doesn't count because those are not skill ranks. They are miscellaneous bonuses to the skill modifier. And Skill Focus is for qualifying for Archmage or NPC's.

The skill section of a character sheet has it set up as follows:
Skill Name, Key Attribute, total Skill Modifier, your Attribute Modifier, your number of Skill Ranks, Miscellaneous Bonus, and Check Penalty.

Miscellaneous Bonus is where everything except the skill points you get per level go.

Edit: Also, there's Skill Focus (Spellcraft) and Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft), which you should probably take right after Epic Spellcasting.

[Woodsman]

I really don't know if I want melee or magic, honestly, and I'm not sure I want to do both.

[Prak]

Nein. Your breath weapon is save for half, and that's just the way it is. There aren't any dragon feats or such that allows you to do that, at least not in the Draconomicon.

Edit: Besides, a dragon's full attack sneak attack bonus is much more awesome than it being applied to a breath weapon.

first, you don't have to tell me how a dragon's breath weapon works, if I didn't know that, I wouldn't be posting in this thread.

Second, there's also always the possibility of getting the dm to custom design something, but it does require the dm having no brains, or a very specific idea of balance.
but good point with the full sneak attack.

Assassin levels may be worth while, or Pal/blackguard levels. The latter would make for quite an interesting character.

[Eldan]

Since druid has been suggested: why not take the shapeshift druid, which gives you boni to your already stellar stats and go to town as a melee monster?

[Mando Knight]

I really don't know if I want melee or magic, honestly, and I'm not sure I want to do both.

You're a dragon. As in, "Natural gish." You've already got massive HP, skills, saves, BAB, and special abilities on one side, so stick with something that has class features or spellcasting as its main draw for the other side.

[Jergmo]

You're a dragon. As in, "Natural gish." You've already got massive HP, skills, saves, BAB, and special abilities on one side, so stick with something that has class features or spellcasting as its main draw for the other side.

!

He could take levels in Eldritch Knight! Assuming the DM allows the spellcaster level to stack, that would be perfect.

[taltamir]

You're a dragon. As in, "Natural gish." You've already got massive HP, skills, saves, BAB, and special abilities on one side, so stick with something that has class features or spellcasting as its main draw for the other side.

yes... i'd go with cleric.

[Mongoose87]

!

He could take levels in Eldritch Knight! Assuming the DM allows the spellcaster level to stack, that would be perfect.

As in, loses a caster level and has no class features, Eldritch Knight?

[arguskos]

Actually, I'm going to echo the Ultimate Magus sentiment. Natural Sorc casting is increased by UM, as is Wizard on the other side. You'd be a natural gish with insane amounts of spellcasting to boot. I think it's worth a look, though it'd be fiddly to work out with levels.

[Mando Knight]

!

He could take levels in Eldritch Knight! Assuming the DM allows the spellcaster level to stack, that would be perfect.

Eldritch Knight's pointless opposite Dragon HD, since it doesn't grant anything that more levels of Sorcerer//Dragon or Wizard//Dragon won't.

[taltamir]

where is the ultimate magus from?

[arguskos]

where is the ultimate magus from?
Complete Mage.

[Jergmo]

Well, he'd have to take a 1 level dip in Fighter, and the first level has no bonus to caster level, but hey, two bonus feats. And there are lots of tasty things that dragons can do with two extra feats.

[Prak]

Complete Mage.

it's really not that great of a class, though I don't know about with gestalt, it is a class that normally would not be allowed.

[arguskos]

it's really not that great of a class, though I don't know about with gestalt, it is a class that normally would not be allowed.
In normal gaming, it's actually quite good. The reduced metamagic ability it gives is really nice.

And yes, in gestalt, it's normally not usable. However, it might be usable in this situation, due to the nature of the creature he's playing. It's up to his DM, as always.

[Woodsman]

I'll check with the DM on the Ultimate Magus, though I wouldn't get much sorcerous casting out of it. I'd be treated as level 11 with natural casting and full Ultimate Magus.

Cleric isn't a bad idea, either.

[Zaydos]

For a primarily spellcasting character go for a dragon with high racial Int/Cha; I'd say shadow dragon (13 racial hit dice, 4 LA and +8 to all mental abilities, plus negative energy breath is nice and with quicken they're taking at least 1 negative level as a swift action and then getting hit with Finger of Death at DC 35 with tomes, +6 item, and 18 base; or Wail of the Banshee and DC 37). Silver is also nice (only +6 to all mental ability scores, but paralysis breath and cold breath that can have metabreath spells applied to it, say enervating breath :smallbiggrin:)

For melee build I'd actually say go with silver dragon for 1/battle swift action save in the stratosphere cone of paralysis (2 or 3 feats to get but nice) or just red for greater strength.

For a rogue build I'd see if I could be a purple dragon from the Dragon Magazine Compendium because it can turn its breath weapon into a melee touch force sword and take advantage of iterative attacks (only deals 3d10 each hit though +11d6 sneak attack :smallbiggrin:) but still touch attacks are nice plus you can make a full melee attack with it.

For a cleric build I'd go silver again (+6 Wis, +6 Con and Str, Paralysis breath).

[taltamir]

holy crap... is there any reason not to play ultimate magus? it is really really strong.

[Flickerdart]

holy crap... is there any reason not to play ultimate magus? it is really really strong.
Usually, unless you use Practiced Spellcaster shenanigans, UM isn't a very good option. With it, you only lose a total of 3 spell progression levels for your primary class, which still gives you 9th level spells, essentially making the neglected side free Metamagic reducers.

[Zaydos]

lose a minimum of 4 wizard levels; that's the biggest one I can think of. 5th level minimum to enter, 1 of which must be sorcerer; at 1st, 4th, and 7th it only raises your lower level existing arcane casting class. Actually how it's worded you could get out of one of those with Practiced Spellcaster so minimum of 3 without early entry tricks.

edit: ninja'd

[taltamir]

why fifth level?
wis 3 sorc 1 satisfied the requirement of casting level 2 prepared and level 1 spontaneous...

1st and 4th it only raises your sorc level... 7th you get to chose, chose your wizard.

You lost 2 levels of wizard to a wiz/sorc of same level AND the neat ability to spontanously convert spells to metamagic of the other class...
So while you only get SL9 spells at CL19 instead of CL17, you get a ton more spells, and at CL17 you can convert...

Ok wait, I see there is a 1/2 highest spell level limit on the free metamagic... you can't just quicken your 8th level spells on CL17.

It is still a very nice and powerful class...

[arguskos]

Because it has skill requirements also, namely Spellcraft 8 ranks (meaning level 5 if you have Spellcraft as a class skill and keep it maxed out).

[Woodsman]

I don't mean to put a damper on things, but can we stick with metallic dragons? The five from the original MM?

What would make a good caster from those?

[arguskos]

I don't mean to put a damper on things, but can we stick with metallic dragons? The five from the original MM?

What would make a good caster from those?
Silver and Gold are both excellent. My suggestion is Gold, simply because they're my favorite of the ten originals. :smallamused:

[Inhuman Bot]

pretty much anything. Rogue is absurd, though. Especially if you can turn your breath weapon into an attack somehow.

Having only read this far, I feel like bringing up Sharuku (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/U2hDQPsRjbwSamZsbE7.html).

I like him.

[Zaydos]

Gold or Silver (+6 to all mental stats at Young). Gold has +8 better Str, +2 better Con and is large sized with +13 natural armor; its breath weapon deals 6 more damage on average or can deal 3 str damage (save halves); it also has 1 more racial hit dice and 1 more LA. Silver is medium sized with only +12 natural armor, but its breath weapon can paralyze which is a lot more damaging than 1 to 3 Strength or 6d10 energy damage.
Other than that you have energy type (cold or fire) and gold gets water breathing where silver gets acid immunity (don't know why). I like paralyzing things but without draconomicon's heighten breath feat its not going to be worthwhile.
Also are there any house-ruled LAs for dragons with ECL 21+ in use?

[Woodsman]

No rules as to above ECL 21. I was just gonna throw the half-dragon template on an ECL 20 dragon and call it a day.

[Zaydos]

If one side has to be 100% dragon I'd say half-silver dragon young gold dragon. Immune to cold and fire, +22 Str, +8 Con, +8 to Int and Cha. If you went half-gold young silver dragon you'd have 2 levels left over and the other 3 just aren't as good.

[Coidzor]

Having only read this far, I feel like bringing up Sharuku (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/U2hDQPsRjbwSamZsbE7.html).

I like him.

I want to find a place to use him in a RHOD game now...

[Stormageddon]

Two words: Straight fighter!

[Woodsman]

What do you people say of a warblade?

[Tiki Snakes]

What do you people say of a warblade?

I say that half of the more extreme ToB hijinks I have heard, coupled with being a dragon sounds like a recipe for a really memorable character.

[Prak]

In normal gaming, it's actually quite good. The reduced metamagic ability it gives is really nice.
And the reduced caster level it forces sucks. By the end of the class, you are four levels behind in both wizard and sorcerer casting, which means you are worse than a wizard with a sorcerer cohort (or vice versa). Or even just two people in the party having one and the other as cohorts.


And yes, in gestalt, it's normally not usable. However, it might be usable in this situation, due to the nature of the creature he's playing. It's up to his DM, as always.
If I were dm'ing, I'd be inclined to flat out say no, jsut as I would if someone were playing a Drider with actual caster levels of whatever they aren't racially casting and wanted to do Mystic Theurge, but I'd also see about examining it more fully.

Edit: Nice avatar. Graz'zt and Iggwilv need more exposure...


Usually, unless you use Practiced Spellcaster shenanigans, UM isn't a very good option. With it, you only lose a total of 3 spell progression levels for your primary class, which still gives you 9th level spells, essentially making the neglected side free Metamagic reducers.

I last looked at it with an eye towards keeping the two equal, but yes, this is certainly possible also.

[KillianHawkeye]

How about a Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration? A dragon would also make a respectable Ninja. A Warlock or Hellfire Warlock probably wouldn't be horrible, either.

Seriously, if you're starting off with "Dragon", you can probably pull off almost any class you want. Heck, you could even play a Monk! :smallamused:

[arguskos]

And the reduced caster level it forces sucks. By the end of the class, you are four levels behind in both wizard and sorcerer casting, which means you are worse than a wizard with a sorcerer cohort (or vice versa). Or even just two people in the party having one and the other as cohorts.
True enough, but using a simple Practiced Spellcaster entry, you can easily alleviate that. Even WITH the issues, you can cap out one class at CL 16, which is PLENTY for most games. Unless you're in a rather high powered game, UM is a typically good choice.


If I were dm'ing, I'd be inclined to flat out say no, jsut as I would if someone were playing a Drider with actual caster levels of whatever they aren't racially casting and wanted to do Mystic Theurge, but I'd also see about examining it more fully.
If it's so weak, why turn it down? :smallwink:


Edit: Nice avatar. Graz'zt and Iggwilv need more exposure...
Indeed, indeed! :smallbiggrin:

[dspeyer]

Dragons already get good attack, skills and saves, so you presumably want magic, maneuvers or class features. Of those, magic is the most powerful, and of the ways to get magic sorcerer is the most flavorful. Ignore the native spellcasting. It barely exists at ECL23.

Gold is almost certainly the best species. It lets you be most dragonny (fewest class levels on the dragon side), gives you the best stats and lets you be large. It's biggest downside is the lousy breath weapon, but you can probably get better mass SoDs from spells.

I'd suggest something like sorcerer 18 / abjurant champion 5 // la 6 / rhd 14 / swordsage 3.

[Starbuck_II]

Seriously, if you're starting off with "Dragon", you can probably pull off almost any class you want. Heck, you could even play a Monk! :smallamused:

Let us not exaggerate too much here.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well I wasn't saying that the Monk class would add anything particularly useful to a dragon character.... :smallbiggrin:

[Prak]

True enough, but using a simple Practiced Spellcaster entry, you can easily alleviate that. Even WITH the issues, you can cap out one class at CL 16, which is PLENTY for most games. Unless you're in a rather high powered game, UM is a typically good choice.
IIRC, I did take PSc into account, but, my problem is that you wind up ridiculously far behind, at least by my standards.


If it's so weak, why turn it down? :smallwink:
Because using gestalt completely overrides the class' weakness, to the point of possibly over powering it, and I am not a number cruncher, so I'm not entirely confident (nor inclined) that I'd catch imbalances. This is one case where my instinct is to trust what WotC wrote.

[arguskos]

IIRC, I did take PSc into account, but, my problem is that you wind up ridiculously far behind, at least by my standards.
No, you didn't. Here, have a breakdown:

Sorc 1/Wiz 4/UM10/Wiz +5 with Prac Spell (sorc) means that you end up with getting 9/10 levels of UM to Wizard. That means you have CL 18 by the end of your career in Wizard, along with CL 13 in Sorc (only cast as a Sorc 9 though). See? Not so bad. :smallwink:


Because using gestalt completely overrides the class' weakness, to the point of possibly over powering it, and I am not a number cruncher, so I'm not entirely confident (nor inclined) that I'd catch imbalances. This is one case where my instinct is to trust what WotC wrote.
Meh, it's GESTALT! It's such a overpowered system that letting a Theurge be good isn't really an issue. :smalltongue:


in more ways than one.

hmm....
Something like that, yes. :smallamused:

[Prak]

No, you didn't. Here, have a breakdown:

Sorc 1/Wiz 4/UM10/Wiz +5 with Prac Spell (sorc) means that you end up with getting 9/10 levels of UM to Wizard. That means you have CL 18 by the end of your career in Wizard, along with CL 13 in Sorc (only cast as a Sorc 9 though). See? Not so bad. :smallwink:
The way I understand it, PSc only raises your caster level, not the level that you actually cast spells at, so it'll raise save dcs and damage, but won't give you spell levels.



Meh, it's GESTALT! It's such a overpowered system that letting a Theurge be good isn't really an issue. :smalltongue:
Gestalt's wonky enough that I try to handle it with extreme care, lest I look at it funny and it shatter. Unless I'm a player, of course.


Something like that, yes. :smallamused:
due to the nature of the board, this should probably be the end of this... though I may work up something for the fan service thread...

[arguskos]

The way I understand it, PSc only raises your caster level, not the level that you actually cast spells at, so it'll raise save dcs and damage, but won't give you spell levels.
And you are quite correct. However, UM triggers based on CASTER LEVEL in the class, not your actual casting power. :smallwink:


Gestalt's wonky enough that I try to handle it with extreme care, lest I look at it funny and it shatter. Unless I'm a player, of course.
Same. Trick is, theurge classes are already weak. Gestalt can either overpower them or make them useful. With a bit of smart decionmaking by the DM, its usually the latter.


due to the nature of the board, this should probably be the end of this... though I may work up something for the fan service thread...
I agree. Sorry, but I can't ever seem to pass up the opportunity for risque jokes, and I've already been yelled at once on the boards today for it. >_> Makes me wonder why I post sometimes.

[Zaydos]

The way I understand it, PSc only raises your caster level, not the level that you actually cast spells at, so it'll raise save dcs and damage, but won't give you spell levels.

PSc only raises you caster level, but how ultimate magus functions is that at 3 levels it raises your arcane class with the lowest caster level, so that if you have Sor 1/Wiz 4 and PSc and take a level of UM you raise Wizard as it is your lower caster level, then at level 4 you raise your choice as they are both equal and at level 7 you raise whichever one you didn't last time. So you end up with 18 CL wizard and 8 sorcerer at Lv 20.

Edit: ninja'd

[tonberrian]

The issue is that the dead levels of casting for an Ultimate Magus are for the class with the higher caster level. Not the effective level that you cast at (like Wiz 17 gets lvl 9 spells), but the caster level itself. Thus, anything that boosts the caster level of one side of Ultimate Magus but not the other can be used to put more levels of actual casting on the side opposite the boost. In this case, Practiced Spellcaster increases you're Sorcerer CL by +4, limited by hitdie. Thus, a Wiz 4/Sor 1 entry into Ultimate Magus would have a Sorcerer caster level of 5 before entry, while Wizard CL is at 4. When that first lost caster level comes up, Sorcerer has the higher overall caster level (by 1), so the effective increase to spellcasting goes to Wizard, even though it casts spells at a higher effective level. At the next lost level of casting, the caster levels are equal, so you can choose which one gets the boost. Unfortunately, you still lose a second level of Wizard casting no matter what you do, unless you don't complete Ult. Magus.

Edit: Ninja'd

[taltamir]

so for ideal power... wizard 4, sorc 1 with practiced spell caster, UM6, PrCs that advance wizard.
Makes you wizard lag by one CL total for UM6 benefits. Nice trick.

[Prak]

And you are quite correct. However, UM triggers based on CASTER LEVEL in the class, not your actual casting power. :smallwink:
well, the abilities, anyway.


Same. Trick is, theurge classes are already weak. Gestalt can either overpower them or make them useful. With a bit of smart decionmaking by the DM, its usually the latter.
*nod* and hell, we're already talking about a case where I pay a lot of attention to character levels (LA/ECL, WotC didn't know what the frack they were doing... let alone with dragons...) so, maybe...


I agree. Sorry, but I can't ever seem to pass up the opportunity for risque jokes, and I've already been yelled at once on the boards today for it. >_> Makes me wonder why I post sometimes.
hence why I'm being careful. Lest I get another warning... I get enough for things that actually matter to my principles, I don't need to fill my allotment with, well, yeah.


PSc only raises you caster level, but how ultimate magus functions is that at 3 levels it raises your arcane class with the lowest caster level, so that if you have Sor 1/Wiz 4 and PSc and take a level of UM you raise Wizard as it is your lower caster level, then at level 4 you raise your choice as they are both equal and at level 7 you raise whichever one you didn't last time. So you end up with 18 CL wizard and 8 sorcerer at Lv 20.
Doesn't work, the casting class bonus levels count actual levels, not caster levels. And even if it did, unless you meant to say "18 CL wizard and 18 sorcerer," I am completely unimpressed. Because the way it was written you are basically a cohort wizard and a follower sorcerer as a single party member, this is poppycock.
(had to find a non-vulgar term...)

[tyckspoon]

Doesn't work, the casting class bonus levels count actual levels, not caster levels.

.. no it doesn't? The spellcasting progression entry says caster level quite plainly, and as we should all be aware of by now the text of an entry takes priority over the summarized table.

You actually end up with casting progression as an 18 Wizard and 9 Sorcerer. Your caster levels are at least 22 Wizard and 17 Sorcerer, thanks to the Arcane Spell Power bonuses from Ultimate Magus (finish off with Archmage and take Spell Power a couple times for even more fun. Shame Holy Word isn't normally an arcane spell). You can sack your spell slots to pay for metamagics. It's certainly not the same as a "cohort Wizard and follower Sorcerer."

[dspeyer]

Ultimate Magus is dual-progression. That's always banned in gestalt.

It has occurred to me that taking sorcerer casting past level 20 is pretty pointless. It would probably be best to swap the first 3 sorcerer levels for something unrelated (I say first three because those are against la). Depending on where you want to focus the character, bard, ranger, paladin, warblade or crusader could be a good choice.

[taltamir]

taking any sorcerer level beyond the first is pointless... sorcerers do not get ANYTHING at all. Not a single feat or ability from level 2 to 20.
Take some PrC instead.

[Prak]

.. no it doesn't? The spellcasting progression entry says caster level quite plainly, and as we should all be aware of by now the text of an entry takes priority over the summarized table.
Okay, I was looking at the table before, now I see it.


You actually end up with casting progression as an 18 Wizard and 9 Sorcerer. Your caster levels are at least 22 Wizard and 17 Sorcerer, thanks to the Arcane Spell Power bonuses from Ultimate Magus (finish off with Archmage and take Spell Power a couple times for even more fun. Shame Holy Word isn't normally an arcane spell). You can sack your spell slots to pay for metamagics. It's certainly not the same as a "cohort Wizard and follower Sorcerer."
alright, you've got PC caster level, and the spell selection of a cohort wizard and follower sorcerer, I'm still not impressed.


taking any sorcerer level beyond the first is pointless... sorcerers do not get ANYTHING at all. Not a single feat or ability from level 2 to 20.
Take some PrC instead.
Well, actually any sorcerer level beyond fifth is pointless... You need to be at least fifth to get into prcs, and not taking levels 2-4 in sorcerer is just going to hurt your already less than optimal character.

[taltamir]

while you need sorc 5 (if you aren't multi classing into sorc) to qualify for a PrC, you are still not getting ANYTHING for level 2 through 5.
Obviously sorc 1 fighter 4 isn't gonna work out... but my point is that sorcs get nothing for being sorcerers that they couldn't get via another class.

[Prak]

if I'm going spell caster, I'd really rather not be down more than a single level on my casting, but that's personal preference.

[taltamir]

if I'm going spell caster, I'd really rather not be down more than a single level on my casting, but that's personal preference.

are you replying to to me? a sorcerer doesn't lose spell casting levels for taking a PrC...

And yes, "thau shalt not sacrifice spell progression" is the cardinal rule of playing a caster... The only discussion was whether there could by some rare exception here and there...

[Prak]

are you replying to to me? a sorcerer doesn't lose spell casting levels for taking a PrC..

I'm talking about not multiclassing prior to the PrC. You're saying there's no reason to take levels 2-4, I'm saying the reason to take levels 2-4 of sorcerer is so that you aren't crippled as a spellcaster. The only time I've considered it was UM, and, well, four levels down on spell selection and levels is a big drawback in my mind.

[Stycotl]

How about a Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration? A dragon would also make a respectable Ninja. A Warlock or Hellfire Warlock probably wouldn't be horrible, either.

Seriously, if you're starting off with "Dragon", you can probably pull off almost any class you want. Heck, you could even play a Monk! :smallamused:

i'm playing a young radiant dragon monk with the vow of poverty, now with a smattering of cleric and crusader levels, getting ready to go into some cool prcs. he was a player character, but then the game died, so now he is one of the main npcs in my game.

[taltamir]

I'm talking about not multiclassing prior to the PrC. You're saying there's no reason to take levels 2-4, I'm saying the reason to take levels 2-4 of sorcerer is so that you aren't crippled as a spellcaster. The only time I've considered it was UM, and, well, four levels down on spell selection and levels is a big drawback in my mind.

you are hung up on the language and not on the intent.
Besides, if you took sorcerer 1 fighter 4 you will still not qualify to any of the PrCs.

[lord_khaine]

What do you people say of a warblade?

Thats really the best idea so far, though i would use Swordsage myself instead.
The big advantage of picking a ToB class for a dragon is that it gets some use out of all those dragon HD, and at the same time you can get some instant movement/pounce abilities, letting you move and then follow up with a devastating full attack.

[Woodsman]

Thats really the best idea so far, though i would use Swordsage myself instead.
The big advantage of picking a ToB class for a dragon is that it gets some use out of all those dragon HD, and at the same time you can get some instant movement/pounce abilities, letting you move and then follow up with a devastating full attack.

Yeah, I know. A dragon with Tiger Claw or Diamond Mind would be pretty powerful, the same with Devoted Spirit.

So any ToB class would work well in this case. I'd like warblade, though, considering you get Int to quite a bit of things. Maybe three levels in swordsage to round it off?

[lord_khaine]

I really dont think the things you can add int to are that useful, and swordsage does get wis to ac, something thats allways nice combined with a racial bonus.

At the same time Swordsage has more boosts, like the one that add xd6+initiator level fire damage to each attack, or the one that turns you invisible for a round, those are easyer combined with a draconic full attack.

[Woodsman]

Yeah, but there's always the fact that everything and it's whole freaking family are immune to fire at this level.

But Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw, and Diamond Mind would all work well. I can also just take three levels in warblade for other maneuvers.