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taltamir
2009-10-25, 05:41 PM
Eschew Materials is a pretty sad feat; it replaces a 5gp component pouch... (except, not really, you still need one for spells who have a material component that is costly)... thats about it. Total waste of a feat that could otherwise be quite interesting.

What do you think about a modification where eschew materials work as following:
You no longer need to have any material component that costs more than 1gp to cast a spell. This does not increase casting time for spontaneous casters.

You may also apply the eschew metamagic feat to any spell with a costly material component, reducing its cost by 100gp per level higher of the slot you used (cannot reduce below 0gp).

So you can cast identify for free using a level 2 slot. Using a raise dead at 7th level slot instead of 5th will decrease cost from 5000 gp in diamond dust to 4800gp.

It is still not an awesome feat, but it is more bearable...
Do you think an XP cost reduction is viable?
How about the amount? is 100gp per level reasonable or should it be more/less? (maybe a percentage... 50% of cost?)

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-25, 05:44 PM
If Eschew Materials was a metamagic feat, you could use it to decrease the spell level of a spell, though.

Also, you don't need a component pouch for costly material components. You need the costly material itself.

Eschew Materials mostly prevents loss of spellcasting when your component pouch is stolen.

Johel
2009-10-25, 05:47 PM
I think it sounds really good.

So far, the feat is more about flavor than anything else. It's only really useful for Sorcerers in a "prison break" scenario, where material component isn't available.

With your suggestion, it actually help low-level characters to make neat economies without making it overpowered.

holywhippet
2009-10-25, 05:47 PM
This feat has a roleplaying aspect you seem to have missed. If the party has been robbed/captured/whatever and the spellcaster is seperated from their spell component pouch then normally they can't cast anything that has a spell component requirement. If they've taken this feat, they can still cast most of their spells.

Otherwise yes, this feat is pretty weak - it would be better if it was a prerequisite for something useful like a reduced cost for spells with costly components.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 05:49 PM
If Eschew Materials was a metamagic feat, you could use it to decrease the spell level of a spell, though.
How in the world would you do THAT?


Also, you don't need a component pouch for costly material components. You need the costly material itself.
Which you would probably keep in your pouch... it is just a pouch where you put your components.


Eschew Materials mostly prevents loss of spellcasting when your component pouch is stolen.
Not gonna happen. If an enemy gets you at night he will slit your throat instead of trying to take your pouch without waking you up, if you are captured then they gag and bind you and you can't cast anyways.
Many spells don't require a material component, you can buy a new pouch in any town, and you can just carry various spell components (many spell components are valueless and easily acquired...)

mostlyharmful
2009-10-25, 05:49 PM
Material components were only included for a bad joke between the developers anyway, just throw them out as they suck for trying to control the use of magic in a game. the use of cost based material components throws up a range of economic and theoretical problems in and of themselves (see the economicon for details)..

taltamir
2009-10-25, 05:50 PM
This feat has a roleplaying aspect you seem to have missed. If the party has been robbed/captured/whatever and the spellcaster is seperated from their spell component pouch then normally they can't cast anything that has a spell component requirement. If they've taken this feat, they can still cast most of their spells.

Otherwise yes, this feat is pretty weak - it would be better if it was a prerequisite for something useful like a reduced cost for spells with costly components.

oh, so they took the 5gp spell pouch and left the 5000gp spell book? and they did not gag / bind the caster? or cut off his tongue or break his fingers? really?


Material components were only included for a bad joke between the developers anyway, just throw them out as they suck for trying to control the use of magic in a game. the use of cost based material components throws up a range of economic and theoretical problems in and of themselves (see the economicon for details)..

Point, that makes much more sense anyways...

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 07:33 PM
How in the world would you do THAT?

Arcane Thesis. There may be other metamagic reducer tricks as well, but that one will certainly work.

In general, I just buy several spell component pouches and keep them in different places. Unless they find all of them, Im good. And hey, I need a spellbook anyhow...so may as well be bound by two items as one, right?

It's something I think should just be given to sorcerers. Makes more sense that way.

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-25, 07:35 PM
Yeah we haven't paid attention to spell component's in DnD since ADD...

The XP reduction looks really nice. I'd love to have it to make a semi-viable Augury spammer...

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-25, 07:56 PM
I like it. In addition, have a higher level Improved Eschew Materials that knocks down the material cost for 1000 gp per +1 adjustment. Maybe give it the prereqs: Eschew Materials and Spellcraft (or Knowledge: Arcana/Religion) 13 ranks.

Or maybe it allows you to spend 1 xp per 5 gp of the expensive material component in question, instead.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 08:16 PM
Arcane Thesis. There may be other metamagic reducer tricks as well, but that one will certainly work.

In general, I just buy several spell component pouches and keep them in different places. Unless they find all of them, Im good. And hey, I need a spellbook anyhow...so may as well be bound by two items as one, right?

It's something I think should just be given to sorcerers. Makes more sense that way.

then the problem is arcane thesis, not it.

Besides, I thought I was clear that it is only metamagic if increasing the level. Otherwise it absolves of materials without acting as metamagic (aka, not increasing casting times for sorcerers)

Lycanthromancer: thanks, good ideas.

KitsuneKionchi: Yea that would be interesting.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 08:21 PM
then the problem is arcane thesis, not it.

Besides, I thought I was clear that it is only metamagic if increasing the level. Otherwise it absolves of materials without acting as metamagic (aka, not increasing casting times for sorcerers)

Lycanthromancer: thanks, good ideas.

It's a bit silly to blame the rules if your homebrew stuff doesn't work well with official rules.

Don't make feats that are sometimes metamagic, sometimes not. That's a rules headache waiting to happen.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 08:25 PM
It's a bit silly to blame the rules if your homebrew stuff doesn't work well with official rules..

Arcane thesis doesn't work well with ANY +0 LA metamagic, and there are many of those which exist in the official books by WOTC. Me making another +0 LA metamagic (I didn't) to add to your arcane thesis abuse does make my rule broken. Arcane thesis was always broken in such a way and could be used to lower a spell's level for free even before I supposedly created a +0 LA metamagic (I didn't).

And actually, according the arcane thesis you cannot actually decrease the spell level, you just get free metamagics.

Arcane thesis lets you chose a spell, for that spell only, any metamagic feat you apply is done at -1 to its normal adjustment. However there is a stipulation (So i hear) that says you cannot go below original level (although some say you can).

So if you take Arcane Thesis fireball, and add 3 +0 LA meatamagics to it, it is now a level 0 spell according the latter intepratation... according the former you can add a +4 LA metamagaic such as quicken, it also gives -1 so its now at +3... now add 3 +0 and you get back to original level and cast a quickened fireball at level 3, like a normal fireball (with the other 3 +0 metamagics as well).

The RAI is supposedly where you add metamagic to this spell at -1 each without going into negative LA per metamagics... aka, they did not consider the existance of +0 LA metamagic. Maybe the RAI also did not mean for +1 metamagic to be free, who knows.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 08:40 PM
Of the ones I can think of offhand, they tend to apply to damage spells, not things like resurrection, wish, etc. You may be able to make a case that an incantrix abusing metamagic cheese does too much damage, etc, yes. However, extending that power to other combinations is still breaking stuff.

After all, at any level at which you are willing to use a metamagic feat to reduce component cost, 100gp/spell level is a pretty trivial sum to do it for. It still doesn't make the feat good if it's used in the manner in which it is intended. In other words, this new capability will only be used for broken combos, if available.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 08:42 PM
would increase the GP discount while banning all abusive tricks make it good then?
How about making it a +1 feat for reducing 25% of cost. +2 to reduce 50%. and thats it, no other options?

Can you give me some examples of new abuse? (aka, abuse that wasn't already possible without that feat by the RAW)

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 08:47 PM
Well, if you do enough to make it worthwhile to use on it's own, if you stack metamagic and reducers on it, you can get any spell for free. Im sure someone will come up with something interesting to do with free true rezes, etc.

Edit: Basic Example.


Incantrix with Arcane Thesis(your overpowered, expensive spell). Add other reducers if you want to be ridiculous. This turns a +1 metamagic into a -1 metamagic. Get any three of those, plus eschew materials.

Cast the spell, using all those metamagics. Select 5 for the adjustment of Eschew Materials. You are now casting it as a spell at the level it was originally, with no GP cost.

Basically, there isn't a way to make it viable for normal play without making it broken for those with reducers.

Tavar
2009-10-25, 08:47 PM
One way to prevent the abuse is to make it work like heighten spell.

quiet1mi
2009-10-25, 08:54 PM
I love Eschew Materials because you no longer need the pouch...

if the spell caster wears light armor, carries a weapon and has no pouch... how do you know he is a spell caster?

holywhippet
2009-10-25, 08:55 PM
oh, so they took the 5gp spell pouch and left the 5000gp spell book? and they did not gag / bind the caster? or cut off his tongue or break his fingers? really?

If they are a sorcerer, bard or divine spellcaster they don't need a spellbook. Whoever grabs the spellcaster might simply strip them of their possessions without realising they are a spellcaster - nobody says guards are all bright.

It also works for situations like getting caught in a flash flood so your pouch gets washed away. Or a pickpocket thinking it's a money purse.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 08:56 PM
Well, if you do enough to make it worthwhile to use on it's own, if you stack metamagic and reducers on it, you can get any spell for free. Im sure someone will come up with something interesting to do with free wishes, true rezes, etc.

Aside from arcane thesis abuse, is there another way? Easy metamagic and metamagic school focus and the like all limit you to -1...
what if it was a percentage decrease?
Escheew materials:
As a non metamagic effects, spells with material components that cost under 1gp (or have unlisted cost) do not require this cost
As a metamagic effect, you may decrease the cost of material components by 50% for a +2 increase in spell level.

how is that?


One way to prevent the abuse is to make it work like heighten spell.

can you please elaborate?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 08:58 PM
Right now, like Still spell, it's basically something you take in case the DM likes to screw with spellcasters.


Talt, does it count as a metamagic feat for the purposes of prerequisites? I dislike feats that don't fall neatly into one category specifically because of all the rules that address metamagic feats as a category.

I would honestly dump the metamagic aspect entirely. It's unnecessary. If you want it to provide a reduction in cost, have it do that as a flat percentage bonus.

Tavar
2009-10-25, 09:00 PM
Heighten spell can't be reduced, since it actually makes the spell into a spell of X level. Have this feat do the same.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 09:02 PM
ok then... good idea...

How is that than:
Eschew Materials [general]
Spells that have a material component that cost under 1gp can be cast without said component (a component without a listed cost is considered to cost under 1 gp).
Spells that have a material component with a listed cost above 1GB require material components of half the listed cost to cast.

How is that?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 09:05 PM
I like that. It sidesteps a lot of issues, and makes it something with long term use. I could see that being considered a much better option than the current Eschew Materials, and it has the side effect of making expensive component spells much more selectable for sorc.

Can't think of any real abuse offhand.

Tiktakkat
2009-10-25, 10:26 PM
Arcane thesis lets you chose a spell, for that spell only, any metamagic feat you apply is done at -1 to its normal adjustment. However there is a stipulation (So i hear) that says you cannot go below original level (although some say you can).

It is in the official errata for the PHB II:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata
Simply, no negative adjustments for metamagic feats.

However, the first part of the errata is, theoretically, affected by the FAQ, page 36:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a
Again simply, it applies only once per spell, not once per metamagic feat applied. Using that however is dependent on your view of the FAQ.


The RAI is supposedly where you add metamagic to this spell at -1 each without going into negative LA per metamagics... aka, they did not consider the existance of +0 LA metamagic. Maybe the RAI also did not mean for +1 metamagic to be free, who knows.

No, it looks more like it was just written sloppily and approved just as sloppily, with nobody bothering to remember all the +0 level metamagic feats that would create the abusive situation with the feat that you mention.

As for reducing the cost of expensive components, I would just note that Ignore Material Components is an Epic Level feat, and it eliminates the costs completely.