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deuxhero
2009-10-25, 05:44 PM
What does everyone think the best spell level at the time it is gotten and the number of staples it includes?

For example (both just examples) an argument that level 2 is the "best" for staples like glitterdust, alter self, mirror image, knock and rope trick and signifys that you are out of "casts less than 5 spells per day." issue of low levels. While level 7 (for example) is largely ", mass" ", greater", spells that require expensive compenets/XP or are impractical for use as a low scale engagment.

Johel
2009-10-25, 05:54 PM
The 8th and 4th spell levels have a excellent selection of spells.

The 8th level is basically Wonderland for Wizards and make you regret to be a Sorcerer just for these spells :
Mind Blank
Protection from Spells
Discern Location
Moment of Prescience
Shadow Evocation, Greater
Polymorph Any Object


The 4th level is more about this :
Polymorph
Enervation
Shadow Conjuration
Invisibility, Greater
Resilient Sphere
Geas, Lesser

mostlyharmful
2009-10-25, 05:59 PM
The first has got a whole lot of duds but enough actually useful stuff to stay relivant into mid and even in some cases high levels.

- Enlarge Person
- Grease
- Sleep/Colour Spray
- Identify
- True Strike
- Disguise Self
- Entangle
- Divine Favour
- Charm Person
- Ray of Enfeeblement

a level 1 dip into a casting class is also the stepping stone into a whole slew of decent Gish builds, plus it makes skill points a whole lot easier since it reduces UMD madness and such.

Korivan
2009-10-25, 06:26 PM
This kind of question is gonna entirally depend on what the person is playing. Personally, I think a caster who prepares for a little bit of everything, or prepares for things ahead of time through checks or divination, or a well stacked sorcerer can find uses for all thier spell slots.

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-25, 07:22 PM
0 is obviously the best level. A single dip into most base classes nets you lots of uses of it per day and they are largerly interchangeable.

Really it has everything you need to live your life:

Message to communicate the delivery boy that you need more food. Prestidigitation a box to make a magic TV to keep yourself entertained. Open/Close to open the fridge without getting up. Mage hand to move the beer to your hand. Open/Close to open the beer up. Prestidigitation if you soil yourself.

If anyone tries to kill you in your wizard tower, daze them and talk them out of it. If they still resist, Mage Hand some inhaled poison onto them or mage hand the air away from them.

The worst is 10th level. Sure you can metamagic into it. But there's no useful spells there...

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 07:24 PM
4th level. So many awesome choices. It's a huge power boost at the time, and it gives you a wild range of options.

waterpenguin43
2009-10-25, 08:01 PM
4th level definately, with Polymorph, Greater invisibility, Control water, the orb spells, Scrying, and many more, it certainly is the starting point when casters start getting better than melee oriented people.

Inhuman Bot
2009-10-25, 08:14 PM
Personally, I'd say the best spell level is your highest, and the worst is your lowest.

Aside from that, yeah, 4th is probably the best spell level for the time you get it.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-25, 08:20 PM
A lot of love for 4th, but no one's mentioned Solid Fog or Black Tentacles yet, which are just yet more reasons to love that spell level.

Gorbash
2009-10-25, 08:35 PM
Worst spell level, in my opinion, is 5th. I'm not saying that it has bad spells, I of course use spells of that level, but when I hit 9th level I didn't get that 'woah' factor that is usually the case.

I like to think of highest level spells as the combat enders, the big guns, etc, yet 5th lvl spells mostly has utility spells, such as Mass Fly, Teleport, Wall of Stone etc.

My personal favs and spells I use most often from 5th lvl list are:

Lighting Leap - Dimension Door + Lightning Bolt = Win!
Greater Blink - all of the benefits, none of the drawbacks.
Telekinesis - I imbue my familiar with it, for Trips, Grapples etc.
Flesh to Ice - first Save or Die.

Gralamin
2009-10-25, 08:38 PM
I find 7th level, with a few exceptions, to be pretty terrible. 4th is pretty great level.

Gorbash
2009-10-25, 08:53 PM
Wow, 7th horrible? Far from it, just check these out:

Brilliant Aura - your whole party gets Brlliant weapons.
Elemental Body - Bunch of immunities, movement modes, whole day long duration. Priceless spell.
Energy Immunity - When ER 30 just doesn't cut it.
Glass Strike - see how those undead like that DC 25+ save or die.
Greater Iron Guard - Immune to magic weapons.
Stun Ray - Save or suck. Or just suck for 1 round.
Reverse Gravity - Just suck.
Waves of Exhaustion - Suck even more.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 08:59 PM
level 0 is the worst spell level, because it has the worst spells :)

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 09:01 PM
level 0 is the worst spell level, because it has the worst spells :)

I would agree because, in the original post, it describes "best level at the time you get it". Almost invariably, you get level 1 spells at the same time as level 0, and the level 1 spells are better.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 09:03 PM
I would agree because, in the original post, it describes "best level at the time you get it". Almost invariably, you get level 1 spells at the same time as level 0, and the level 1 spells are better.

that, and every single level 0 spell is inferior to shooting something with a crossbow.

aje8
2009-10-25, 09:04 PM
3rd is the best IMO.

Fly, Haste, Slow, Stinking Cloud

Or maybe 2nd

Mirror Image, Invisibility, Glitterdust

Worst IMO is 8th...... I can never find any good 8th levels aside from Quickened spells.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 09:06 PM
that, and every single level 0 spell is inferior to shooting something with a crossbow.

I'll make an exception for detect magic, but yeah...using cantrips for damage is pretty much a waste.

Tavar
2009-10-25, 09:10 PM
Well, except for Rouge/Mage builds, due to most of them having attack rolls, but then it's just a delivery vehicle for Sneak Attack damage.

tyckspoon
2009-10-25, 09:17 PM
that, and every single level 0 spell is inferior to shooting something with a crossbow.

Except Launch Bolt, which is exactly like shooting something with a crossbow. Only it burns a spell slot to do it.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-25, 09:18 PM
Worst IMO is 8th...... I can never find any good 8th levels aside from Quickened spells.
!!!

If only for Mind Blank, 8th is not the worst spell level out there. But it doesn't just have Mind Blank either. Protection from Spells, GPB/A, Momoent of Prescience, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Greater Shadow Evocation, Polymorph Any Object. And that's just Core.

aje8
2009-10-25, 09:24 PM
If only for Mind Blank, 8th is not the worst spell level out there. But it doesn't just have Mind Blank either. Protection from Spells, GPB/A, Momoent of Prescience, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Greater Shadow Evocation, Polymorph Any Object. And that's just Core.
Actually maybe you're right. (Though I will say that I'm really not sold on Protection from spells or moment. And I'm not sure what GPB/A is. But anyway, that's not the point.

I think my lack of finding 8th level spells may have something to do with:
A. Being a focused specalist(No evocation, enchantment and usually abjuration)
and
B. Banning Polymorph line for power level reasons.

Sharkman1231
2009-10-25, 09:31 PM
5th and 6th are really good for clerics,
Divine Might=awesome
Harm=win-button

Edit: I assume the thread means all spell lvls that aren't 9th

Mando Knight
2009-10-25, 09:41 PM
that, and every single level 0 spell is inferior to shooting something with a crossbow.

In addition, you can't get bonus level 0 spell slots, so you'll eventually have more level 1 spell slots than level 0...:smallconfused:

Godskook
2009-10-25, 09:42 PM
I think 1st level is the worst 'when you get it', since with a caster level of 1, very few of the spells are workable, and some seem almost stupid to cast(SM I). This is also something that changes, in that there's L1 spells that can become more useful at higher levels(such as grease).

Emperor Tippy
2009-10-25, 09:58 PM
Every level has sufficient good/valuable/necessary/useful spells that you usually don't have a problem choosing which ones to take or memorize (as in, these are all worthless). The much more common problem is "There are 5 spells that are good at this level, I get 3. Which two can I live without?".

Tyndmyr
2009-10-25, 10:13 PM
Except Launch Bolt, which is exactly like shooting something with a crossbow. Only it burns a spell slot to do it.

Light crossbow, yes. Heavy crossbow is still better. Also, see my favorite low level item, tumbling bolts(Arms and equipment). A caster can one shot quite a bit at level one with a heavy crossbow and those.

taltamir
2009-10-25, 10:52 PM
Except Launch Bolt, which is exactly like shooting something with a crossbow. Only it burns a spell slot to do it.

you... shoot a crossbow... with a spell... no extra benefits. dumbest spell ever.
Unless you abuse it by lunching a colossal bolt.

FMArthur
2009-10-25, 11:05 PM
Wizard/Sorceror: 4th level spells are incredible when you get them and it's the first level of spells that, in my opinion, is never rendered obsolete by access to higher levels of spells. 5th level spells are disappointing by contrast; often it seems more useful to use some 5th level slots to prepare 4th level spells.

Great 4th level spells:
Evard's Black Tentacles
Solid Fog
Celerity
Polymorph
Orbs of X
Enervation
Globe of Invulnerability
Dimensional Anchor
Dimension Door
Scrying (and Detect Scrying, powerful by virtue of Scrying being powerful)
Greater Invisibility

Great 5th level spells:
Dismissal
Overland Flight
Teleport
Wall of Force
Shadow Evocation
Symbol of Pain

Neither list is anywhere near exhaustive, but for the most part, 4th and 5th level spells hover around the same power level, with some 4ths even being better than any 5ths. The benefits of getting to 9th and 10th wizard levels for me are usually "ooh, more slots for 4th level spells".

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-26, 12:22 AM
I'd say every spell level serves a different purpose, so they can all be "the best" at different times:
Cantrips: Best level for roleplaying a caster--you can prestidigitate, make lights, cure things, and generally wow the populace.
1st level: Best level for dippers--true strike and enlarge person for gishes, bless water and sanctuary for undead hunters, etc.
2nd level: Best level for party support--the various fog spells for crowd control, the animal buffs for buffing, etc.
3rd level: Best level for thematic differentiation--evokers get the iconic fireball and lightning bolt, clerics start getting the good domain spells, etc.
4th level: Best for your mainstay spells--SoDs, mobility, crowd control, and other spells that, as FMArthur said, never really get overshadowed.
5th level: Best for personal independence--teleport and plane shift let you get around on your own, you can dominate servants and construct a stronghold with walls of stone, etc.
6th level: Best for tactical superiority--planar binding outsiders gives you more allies, most spells of this level affect many allies or enemies, and you get some of the nice divinations to prepare for combat.
7th level: Best for overall power--it has great buffs, SoDs, and is kinda like 4th level all over again.
8th level: Best for buffs--mind blank, moment of prescience, etc.
9th level: Best for expanded options--spells like wish, shapechange, gate, and others let you do things lower level spells can't achieve, or just give you many possible effects at your fingertips that you'd otherwise need many spells to achieve.

Bayar
2009-10-26, 02:52 AM
you... shoot a crossbow... with a spell... no extra benefits. dumbest spell ever.
Unless you abuse it by lunching a colossal bolt.

Your doing it wrong. It is meant to launch Dust of Sneezing and choking, and other alchemical stuff at 100 ft away, not bolts.

And cantrips do not suck. Presitdigitation has so many uses it is awesome.

Superglucose
2009-10-26, 03:26 AM
Third.

Seventh has spells I just like...
Finger of Death, Waves of Exhaustion, Mass Hold Person (this one is super useful, it's crowd control with +2 to the DC and also you get to hit the BBEG and all of his allies), Power Word Blind (SERIOUSLY... no save blind, and not many folk are going to have 200+ hp at 13th level. Heck, a lot of things won't have 200+ hp... a Barbarian with +4 con doesn't average 200 hp until level 18. Things with lesser HD/Con are going to have significantly less, and blinded opponents are out of the fight, Greater Arcane Sight, Phase Door, Greater Teleport, and of course Limited Wish.

For those of you who didn't ban evocation, this is the level you get Forcecage.

At third level, I get...
Haste and Slow, of course, but my GM had neutered these to be one target, touch, rounds/level so they were useless. You need to take dispel magic, stinking cloud is one of my favorite spells (obscuring mist + no standard actions), Ray of Exhaustion, Displacement, and Hold Person. So I had four spells to choose from... the only level where I wasn't busy looking for scrolls. RAW or (even better) 3.0 Haste/Slow, and third level becomes a whole lot tastier.

As a comparison, second level has:
Prot Arrows, Glitterdust, Web, See Invisibility, Hideous Laughter, Shatter, Blur, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Ghoul Touch, Alter Self, the stat spells, Knock, Spider Climb and Rope Trick.

I would rather have Web than Hold Person, and also there's about a dozen spells there that are super useful. Plus Glitterdust, Web, Shatter, Prot Arrows, Mirror Image, Blue, Alter Self, Knock, Spider Climb, Rope Trick and the stat spells are useful no matter what level you are. Ray of Exhaustion, Displacement, and Haste are the only spells that really age well from the 3rd level.

As for the best, it's pretty close between second and fourth. Fourth has the Lesser Globe, which lets you do fun things ("I cast stinking cloud around myself. They can't see me."), Arcane Eyes ("I cast arcane eyes, now I can see them, right? Ok, spellcasting time."), Geas, Black Tentacles (as if Lesser Globe wasn't enough, Black Tentacles is a "no, the other side doesn't get to cast. I'm sorry." button.), Greater Invisibility, Enervation, and Polymorph.

Frankly I think second is the most useful level of spells out of them all for a character going 1-20. That is to say, if you play a wizard from level 1 to level 20, you will get more mileage out of level 2 spells than any other spell level. Web is still useful at high levels, as is Prot Arrows, and Mirror Image. Not *as* useful, sure, but the level 2 spells remain relevant for a looong time. Glitterdust is a poor man's Purge Invisibility (cleric 3), except better because of the chance of blinding and it doesn't have to be centered on you.

I would, however, say that Fourth is more powerful at level 7 than Second is at level 3. That's just my opinion of course.

Oh also the cantrips argument is ridiculous, if just because of Detect Magic. Prestidigitation, Resistance (for crafting), Light, Message, Mage Hand... I dunno level 0 spells are VERY useful at low levels. Don't use them for damage though.

Still, if that door's trapped, it's easier to find out by using Mage Hand to turn the handle... and light is a free substitute for a normally 50gp item.

taltamir
2009-10-26, 08:03 PM
I'd say every spell level serves a different purpose, so they can all be "the best" at different times:
Cantrips: Best level for roleplaying a caster--you can prestidigitate, make lights, cure things, and generally wow the populace.
1st level: Best level for dippers--true strike and enlarge person for gishes, bless water and sanctuary for undead hunters, etc.
2nd level: Best level for party support--the various fog spells for crowd control, the animal buffs for buffing, etc.
3rd level: Best level for thematic differentiation--evokers get the iconic fireball and lightning bolt, clerics start getting the good domain spells, etc.
4th level: Best for your mainstay spells--SoDs, mobility, crowd control, and other spells that, as FMArthur said, never really get overshadowed.
5th level: Best for personal independence--teleport and plane shift let you get around on your own, you can dominate servants and construct a stronghold with walls of stone, etc.
6th level: Best for tactical superiority--planar binding outsiders gives you more allies, most spells of this level affect many allies or enemies, and you get some of the nice divinations to prepare for combat.
7th level: Best for overall power--it has great buffs, SoDs, and is kinda like 4th level all over again.
8th level: Best for buffs--mind blank, moment of prescience, etc.
9th level: Best for expanded options--spells like wish, shapechange, gate, and others let you do things lower level spells can't achieve, or just give you many possible effects at your fingertips that you'd otherwise need many spells to achieve.

level 10, aka, epic... You win DnD.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-26, 08:30 PM
that, and every single level 0 spell is inferior to shooting something with a crossbow.

What about Caltrops? They deal more to more people in total (1 each) but force effect.

sambo.
2009-10-26, 09:17 PM
i think all spell levels have at least a couple in there that are just flat out awesome.

thinking along Sorcerer lines for the lowest three levels:

0: Caltrops, Prestidigitation (c'mon, this one is so cool it's just not funny. the role-playing possibilities are almost endless with some inagination), read magic (a 0 level spell and you can read the spellbook of an epic archmage? kkthxbai!), Mage Hand (need to lift the keys off the sleeping guards belt?)

1: Grease (how is this not one of the most awesome spells ever?), Featherfall (saving my bacon since 1ed. seriously, i cannot think of any other single spell that has saved the lives of more party members over the years than this one).

2: Glitterdust, Bigby's Slapping Hand (no save, DC20 Concentration check to negate? just don't throw it at high level BBEG caster types. a DC20 untrained Concentration check is a big call at any level. choose the right target at the right time (eg: an enemy that has a couple of party melee types close up) and this can potentially dish out a ton of damage).

and those are just a few staples from the lowest three levels of spells. with some imagination, all of those can be very, very useful even in a lvl18+ party.

it's not how powerful the spell is, it's how powerful your imagination is when using a spell.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-26, 09:40 PM
And I'm not sure what GPB/A is.

That's greater planar ally & greater planar binding, two above-average 8th-level utility spells. The acronym is obfuscating to the uninitiated.

And I disagree with the people that say 5th level is the worst. This is the level where DMs start having major problems with full casters. Your PCs can no longer be easily controlled, because the party caster can now get around most of your obstacles, negate most of your encounters, & solve most of their own problems single-handed. This forces the DM to reinvent their approach to the party, usually simplifying the game in the process. Spells like overland flight, plane shift, & teleport grant them mobility that bypasses traps, wilderness encounters, & other means of controlling their journey from where they are to their goal. Wall of stone can alter the battlefield in their favor, negating any effort to use terrain against the party. Dominate person just hoses social encounters, usually before they start. And the list goes on...

Before 5th-level spells, the PCs are much more manageable, while the DM is largely in control of how/when the plot unfolds. Afterward, the balance shifts noticeably in the PCs favor, because now the casters start to command their own destiny.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-26, 10:26 PM
i think all spell levels have at least a couple in there that are just flat out awesome.

thinking along Sorcerer lines for the lowest three levels:

0: Caltrops, Prestidigitation (c'mon, this one is so cool it's just not funny. the role-playing possibilities are almost endless with some inagination), read magic (a 0 level spell and you can read the spellbook of an epic archmage? kkthxbai!), Mage Hand (need to lift the keys off the sleeping guards belt?)

Caltrops...nah. Quickly fades from usefulness, and anyhow, is replacable by inexpensive mundane equipment, or the rather cheap Jumping Caltrops from MiC.

On the other hand, I usually end up with an eternal wand of detect magic, and stacking my cantrip slots with it, mage hand, and prestidigitation. Those three are pretty much always handy, even if greater mage hand later makes mage hand less important.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-26, 10:58 PM
Caltrops...nah. Quickly fades from usefulness, and anyhow, is replacable by inexpensive mundane equipment, or the rather cheap Jumping Caltrops from MiC.Yes and no. Caltrops with Cloudy Conjuration at 1st level is surprisingly good, and that's a feat that every conjurer will take anyways. No-save minor debuffs are a decent use of an action when you don't want to waste a real spell slot.

taltamir
2009-10-26, 11:06 PM
What about Caltrops? They deal more to more people in total (1 each) but force effect.

wow... caltrops...

This saturday we had a tough combat with some oozes... Game where casters are limited to a single school (with some minor wiggle room)

6 people, some with bonus to spot... all failed spot to check to see a fairly weak ooze, it engulfed the paladin and damaged his items... no big deal, we killed it mended them...
Next room, 2 tough oozes, paralizing touch with tough check, DC15 spot check, all 6 failed it twice to see either ooze. yet we sent in a summon monster 1 to trigger traps, it got engulfed by one... we started fighting, it engulfed all the front liners, then the second charged and caught all the casters and paralized them... the only reason it wasn't TPK was because the paladin was immune to paralize and killed them, barely...

So, we go forth and search the room, nothing but a single coffin which we know contains our query... tanks surround the thing and ready action to hit anything in it, summoner summons 3 skeletons, and a summoner monster 1 for a monkey. My transmuter readies action to haste if something hostile is inside... the monkey summon opens the chest... and is engulfed by an ooze... we hit it with all the readied actions... luckily most miss, and it splits into 3 oozes...

the two new ones grapple the summoned skellies. But the first one grappled the paladin... we are worried about losing some players... the summoner casts caltrops at the ooze that is grappling the paladin for 1 damage. DM laughes (1 damage? really? that is what you want on your turn?)... transmuter casts grease on paladin, he barely makes his check, grabs his maul... and rolls just enough to bring the thing down to 0 HP... if it wasn't for the caltrops it would be at 1 HP and would have surely engulfed him (and finished him off) the next turn and then came after the rest of us.

Although, when I think about it, maybe it was another battle where the caltrops made the difference between losing and winning...

Zaq
2009-10-27, 03:58 AM
6th has always struck me as underwhelming, at least for sorcerers.

Sure, there are some gems. Greater Dispel, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Freezing Glance, Malevolent Tentacles, True Seeing, Contingency, things like that. But compared to the smorgasbords that are 3rd, 4th, and 5th, well, it just doesn't thrill me in quite the same way.

It's by no means weak.. It's just less than exciting.