Gestalt Monsters

[Draxar]

How would you run a game using both monster classes and Gestalt classes? In the low player number situations that Gestalt is for, with a monster class and another class (switching to two classes once you finish the monster class).

It seems like a way to add breadth to the powers of a monster, keeping the inhuman flavour while giving more actual options.

Of course, the problem is hit dice. The way Monster Classes offset the powers you get is by not getting extra hitpoints every level. Gestalt classes would, in theory, give you the better of the two options, which would be hitpoints every level.

Which means that a monster class that gives you less hit dice is suddenly better, as it suddenly gives you more bang without the downside of lower hitpoints.

Would it work to just give you the abilities of both monster class and normal class, but only the hitpoints of the monster class (or the class hit die type of your class if that is higher).

What do people think?

This is somewhat a context-less question, it's not attached to a specific campaign, just a general "Would this work", which might get used at some point, but which I'm also interested in as a theoretical problems.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Since Gestalf increases the power of the PC's and IIRC the UA book sugest to make the encounters higher so they can actually be a challenge to the PC's I think that giving the monster the benefits of gestalf (icluding more HP) would be something that would balance the power level.

Or is it for gestalfing monster Classes and classes for a PC? if thats the case I think the PC should get all the benefits including HP all the time

[Draxar]

Since Gestalf increases the power of the PC's and IIRC the UA book sugest to make the encounters higher so they can actually be a challenge to the PC's I think that giving the monster the benefits of gestalf (icluding more HP) would be something that would balance the power level.

Or is it for gestalfing monster Classes and classes for a PC? if thats the case I think the PC should get all the benefits including HP all the time

This is mostly from the point of view of doing it as PCs – a game where everyone is playing a character that is a monster with both monster class (or Racial Hit Dice + ECL, depending on starting level) and a character class.

Essentially the thing that I worry about is that suddenly high level adjustment monsters become very attractive.

Normally, both Fire Giants and Ghaele's are once they've completed their monster class, ECL 19. But along that monster class, the Fire Giant has picked up 15HD, and the Ghaele has picked up 10. Make them gestalt, and suddenly both have 19 HD, which is a small increase for the Fire giants, but a near doubling for the Ghaele.

Another good example is Shadows and Griffons – at level 10, Shadows have 3HD and Griffon's have 7HD. Gestalting gives Griffon's less than 50% extra hitpoints, whereas the Shadow has increased its by 200%.

Obvious the particular classes chosen adjusts this (Shadow Barbarians!) but the main issue remains.

[Riffington]

Letting a monster gestalt even one of its levels is a significant boost - almost as large a boost as giving it an extra class level (which, incidentally, is much much easier to do the math for). I'd just give your monsters an extra level or few, subtract a few HP if needed, and call it a day.

[Dusk Eclipse]

hmm... You are right some monster classes benefit more from gestalfing than others (IE the ones with many levels but low HD such as Shadows).

To be honest I was thinking into gestalfing the Racial HD in the MM entries and not the savage progressions.

To top all this I put this from a player's perspective, I have only DM modules so I don't have that much experience on that stuff.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Its like drugs, just say no!

way overpowered. Pixie warlock rogue! PIXIE WARLOCK ROGUE!

[Draxar]

Letting a monster gestalt even one of its levels is a significant boost - almost as large a boost as giving it an extra class level (which, incidentally, is much much easier to do the math for). I'd just give your monsters an extra level or few, subtract a few HP if needed, and call it a day.

This is for use as players, not as a DM doing this for his monsters.


Its like drugs, just say no!

way overpowered. Pixie warlock rogue! PIXIE WARLOCK ROGUE!

Well, you'd get just one or the other until you complete your Pixie levels.

And it's gestalt. It's supposed to be powerful. The thing I am looking for is to make it equally powerful for all players.

Yes, there will always be abuses that can be found, but there should be a point where you can balance it, where you can have monsters with both their inbuilt abilities and cool class stuff, which are balanced against each other as long as no-one looks for the munchkin options – a decent DM can catch a player munchkin-ing, as long as there is a base balance point that that munchkin is deviating from


hmm... You are right some monster classes benefit more from gestalfing than others (IE the ones with many levels but low HD such as Shadows).

To be honest I was thinking into gestalfing the Racial HD in the MM entries and not the savage progressions.

To top all this I put this from a player's perspective, I have only DM modules so I don't have that much experience on that stuff.

The problem comes when you have monsters with wildly different ECL and/or HD– If you have someone who wants to play a Shadow, and someone who wants to play a fire giant. But then, if you gestalt only the HD, does that mean low HD characters lose out?

I think a Gestalted 10 Shadow with 10 levels of Rogue, giving him 10 HD rather than 3, 9d6 sneak attack, and so forth, is certainly better than a gestalted Griffon who has taken barbarian, and can rage and has some DR, along with his 3 extra hit dice.

However I think a Griffon with 7 levels of progression of barbarian (a bit more hitpoints, 2 rages, DR 1/–, Uncanny dodge and Trap sense), rather beats a Shadow with 3 levels of rogue progression (evasion, trap sense, 2d6 attack)

I wonder if the answer is class ability progression but not hitpoint progression. A Gestalted Shadow who has those 10 level of rogue, has that 5d6 sneak attack (and improved uncanny dodge and special ability), but still only has 3 hit dice is more comparable to a Griffon with 7 hit dice, 3 Rages a day, and DR 2/–

I'm not sure. I'm also not sure if I'll ever use this, but it's interesting to try and find the balance point.