Gamer Mental Problem

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hi everybody,

While reading the thread for Dragon Age, I was coming along (repetitive) comments that puzzled me more than a little. It's usually on this scale:

"I hate it when I play a new game and I make a crippling mistake earlier on, and I have to start all over again ten hours later because of that early mistake"

Now, don't take this the wrong way. When I do play a game that I played for a long time, I do like to optimise my character like any other powergame in this (board) room. But when I play for the very first time a game, I kinda feel like discovering it. Yhea, I will make mistakes, so what?

Most of us experienced gamers aren't newbies with those games. We can usually picture in our head a somewhat good build that would probably works in any game we are discovering. It's no perfect, but there is still some viability on it.

The worst that can happen if we get stuck because of unbeatable opponents because, for some reason, we haven't optimised perfectly our characters, and we have to tuned down the difficulty for this fight. Oh my god, what a shame! /irony

(To be honest, I did screw up on my first playtrough with Oblivion, but that was because of bad game design that really screwed you over 1000 times if you didn't knew how you were supposed to play)

There is only one time you play a game for the first time. Do you always feel the need to go check right away the best builds, all the tips and hints, and the Ultimate Weapon?

KOTOR1 and 2, NWN, Baldur`s Gate (difficult one), Vampire : Bloodlines (very nice one), Fallout 1 & 2. All these games I've played and re-played. But I usually tried to enjoy the first time as organically as possible, with a Tabula Rasa on my knowledges, just to feel like I am in a real RPG, and not just pre-ordained software simulation that I know beforehand.

I usually resist until my 2nd playtrough before going over the net and blackmailing everybody into giving me the best tips :smallbiggrin:


Whatcha think?

[Makensha]

I think that MMOs have a big problem with this, as spending 30 hours on a character before the difficulty ramps up enough for you to notice how poor your charater is is an exception, but otherwise I totally agree.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I am with you on not wanting to know everything. I'm never really afraid of messing up a build, because its usually pretty obvious when looking at the skill trees and such, what is good and what is mediocre.

[Istari]

I have partially the same views as the quotee
I don't mind not being perfectly optimized, but I don't want to screw up that playthrough by doing something stupid or something that I never would have foreseen. I just don't want to waste all those play hours because I didn't know what was going on.
Now in games where I'm more comfortable with the controls and mechanics I'll play through the game once, occasionally looking at guides before going for an optimal run

[SolkaTruesilver]

I have partially the same views as the quotee
I don't mind not being perfectly optimized, but I don't want to screw up that playthrough by doing something stupid or something that I never would have foreseen. I just don't want to waste all those play hours because I didn't know what was going on.


Now, how often has it happened when you *really* screwed up a game without knowing, and that made the whole game unplayable eventually? I am not talking about missing weapon X that was in room B, or taking some useless feats/ability/NPCs that you realise eventually are worthless, but where you actually can't play the game at all?

And Oblivion doesn't count.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Oblivion is one of those special cases where it is nearly impossible to make a competent character (in the late game) by just playing the game.

[warty goblin]

I do worry about making characters that are weak the first time through a game for a simple reason: I tend not to replay most games. There are exceptions which I play obsessively for years, but as a rule I'll play a title once. Unless I discover it sucks half way through, in which case I stop playing it after it uses up its six to eight hour grace period.

There's a lot of games I want to play, and I have limited time so I don't like having to restart and replay because I screwed up without actually having the information reasonably available in game to avoid the mistake.

The other problem, particularly with class based RPGs, is that I'm forced to make a decision that majorly impacts gameplay literally before I start playing the game. It'd be like playing an FPS where the first thing you had to do was determine whether or not you wanted to use a shotgun, sniper rifle or assault rifle. You haven't ever fired the guns in this game before, and don't know the level design. It could be that half the game takes place in an abandoned mine, and taking the sniper rifle is signing yourself up for hours of pain. Or there could be a featureless plain, where you never engage an enemy at ranges under a hundred meters.

Now if the game offers me the ability to respec- and informs me of this, it goes a long way towards reducing this sort of misery. But if I don't know that, the 'choose a class' screen is really not very much fun. Honestly I usually end up deciding based on what character looks the coolest.

[Inhuman Bot]

I have a fear of that for the simple reason.

I've played a few text adventures. Namely, Hitchhiker's guide to the ******* galaxy.

Also, Warty makes a good point. Stupid, decesive Dreadlord.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Isn't that part of the excitement warty? Not really knowing what you are getting into, and just doing it? For instance I am really looking forward to playing a Dwarven Rogue in Dragon Age, even though I literally know nothing about what the rogue does (aside from the usual stereotypes).

And how many games have you truly played where you just messed up so badly in character design that you had to start over or just stopped playing?

[Zeful]

Now, how often has it happened when you *really* screwed up a game without knowing, and that made the whole game unplayable eventually? I am not talking about missing weapon X that was in room B, or taking some useless feats/ability/NPCs that you realise eventually are worthless, but where you actually can't play the game at all?

And Oblivion doesn't count.

I did it in my first Fallout 3 play through. I can't go out and adventure due to the spawning of Yaou Gui on the path.

[littlebottom]

I have a fear of that for the simple reason.

I've played a few text adventures. Namely, Hitchhiker's guide to the ******* galaxy.

Also, Warty makes a good point. Stupid, decesive Dreadlord.

HAHAAA! that game is crazily impossible, you have to get it perfect, you have 1 chance to pick up ESSENTIAL items that you need to use in the most crazy of ways, like trying to catch a sodding fish that shoots down a hole in the wall?!?!!?!

[warty goblin]

Isn't that part of the excitement warty?

No. Don't get me wrong, I like the unknown in a game, since it forces me to adapt, alter my playstyle, and use my head. The problem is that I can't do any of that in most cases with an RPG's leveling system, I'm just stuck with the choices I made fifteen hours ago. I'm not adapting or thinking, I'm just ploughing ahead. Part of my difficulty here is that I play a lot of strategy titles, and in general ploughing ahead in those games only occurs when I've screwed up enough I don't have any viable options anymore, so continuing on my present course is the only thing I can do, or I've basically won and am just hunting down the last remnants of my foes. One of these is pretty much a fail state, the other is just plain boring.


Not really knowing what you are getting into, and just doing it? For instance I am really looking forward to playing a Dwarven Rogue in Dragon Age, even though I literally know nothing about what the rogue does (aside from the usual stereotypes).
The problem I have here is that I could A) Play a game as a class that might be fun, or B) Play a different game I know will be fun. Again, I have limited game time, and so I have to shoot for what I'm fairly sure will work. What I really don't want to have happen is to play a game for six hours as a rogue (or whatever) hoping it will become fun, but not have it work out. Not only have I wasted six hours, I've hit a whole bunch of choices I never get to make for the first time again- which is when I find dialog choices and suchlike to be the most fun.


And how many games have you truly played where you just messed up so badly in character design that you had to start over or just stopped playing?
I've never done it (well, except Oblivion but as previously mentioned that doesn't count), but that doesn't mean I want to have to worry about it. I'd much rather, you know, play the damn game.

[Myatar_Panwar]

If you've never done it, why are you so worried? Most rpgs are pretty forgiving.

[warty goblin]

If you've never done it, why are you so worried? Most rpgs are pretty forgiving.

I'm a strategy gamer, I worry about whether I'm bringing the right tools to a fight. It's fairly part and parcel to how I operate in a game. Then I'm irritated because I have no way of knowing if I'm doing so or not. This makes me think that the game is badly designed.

[Istari]

Now, how often has it happened when you *really* screwed up a game without knowing, and that made the whole game unplayable eventually? I am not talking about missing weapon X that was in room B, or taking some useless feats/ability/NPCs that you realise eventually are worthless, but where you actually can't play the game at all?

And Oblivion doesn't count.

First thing that comes to mind if Heroes of Might and Magic 5
I screwed over Godric by barely using him in the last human misson and the undead campaign so when I was forced to use him in the last campaign he was horribly under leveled and it was basically impossible to play
Also same game, I ended giving Findan all four magic skills which screwed him over and made me take days to finish the last elven mission and added to the problems in the last campaign
That's the only one I can think of at the moment

[Tavar]

Why doesn't Oblivion count? I had to restart several times before giving up, lowering the difficulty, and installing several mods.

Also, I've had to do this several times, most memorably with the Neverwinter Nights games. It really saps the fun right out of it.

[Stormthorn]

Now, how often has it happened when you *really* screwed up a game without knowing, and that made the whole game unplayable eventually? I am not talking about missing weapon X that was in room B, or taking some useless feats/ability/NPCs that you realise eventually are worthless, but where you actually can't play the game at all?

And Oblivion doesn't count.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Unwinnable

On particularly bad example has you try to sell a hovervraft and i guy offers to buy it. You need the money. You also need a jetpack that you can only get if you refuse him the first time. The game doesnt tell you that you need the jetpack for several hours, and it doesnt tell you why you missed it if you did.
And from that page "Unmodified, the "wraithguard_juryrig" permanently mods your health down, leaving you crippled! " which is from the THIRD Elder Scrolls game. You can still beat the game, but you need to level up something close to 30 more times to get back the health you lost. I did it. Took many hours.

And somewhat related...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LostForever

[warty goblin]

Why doesn't Oblivion count? I had to restart several times before giving up, lowering the difficulty, and installing several mods.

Also, I've had to do this several times, most memorably with the Neverwinter Nights games. It really saps the fun right out of it.

Oblivion doesn't count because by any most standards the roleplaying elements are really, really poorly done, and pretty much every human on the planet I've talked to dislikes them for some reason or another. The most popular complaint is that Oblivion uses an 'advance skills through using them' system, but actually screws you over for making your Major Skills the ones you really use.

edit: since the system sucks, it's not a particularly good data point for determining how people react to decisions in RPGs, since even somebody who likes and is good at them is liable to be screwed over by Oblivion at least once.

[Dairun Cates]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Unwinnable

While I'm not always a component of relying on TV tropes to make a point, this one pretty much sums the entire thing up. There's just games out there where you can get stuck in an unwinnable situation. Old adventure games are INFAMOUS for this, and it's frustrating as hell if it happens to you. The worst part is that eventually some friend will say, "Well you should've saved more", and you will, by law, be forced to punch them in the face.

A lot of these were also in the days before the internet too. So, it was more rote trial and error. A few Nintendo games literally required you to own Nintendo Power at the time to defeat them back in the day.

Now, a lot of people will say, "but we've gotten past this kind of design". For the most part, we have, but it's far from dead. There are some games that just INSIST on having a guide of some kind and they're not all bad.

This ranges from having unwinnable conditions to merely having a good item or fun optional content locked out from you because you didn't do something really obscure, or flat out making the game impossible at the beginning (ala some possible spawns of maps on Nethack). Even games I love have this. For instance, I've hit the impossible FF6 loop.

Also, the comment about MMO's is truly valid. There's some fairly popular MMOs out that there that will flat out screw you over if you don't pick the exact right skill and ability score combination. For instance, Maple Story is so bad about this, it's ridiculous. If you don't have a 10 in your class' main stat and put EVERY LAST SKILL POINT YOU CAN into that score each point you're missing can cost you hundreds of points of damage per hit PER POINT in the late game. Considering how horribly grindtastic the game is, it's just making the later parts of the game ever worse for you which slows them down even more.

I also like to play games and just be free to build my character how I want, but in order for me to be able to do that, I need to feel safe that my build won't be severely gimped from the optimum build because I didn't put a point here or there. Mass Effect does this pretty well. A lot of other games do not.

So, I entirely understand the problem, and it's a completely legitimate complaint. Not only for hardcore gamers, but casual gamers as well.

[Myatar_Panwar]

The only time I've been completely stuck without a hope was with Tales of Symphonia. Though it was more my fault than the games.

Only had one save, and entered an area with a boss far too strong, and the only exit through him.

[oyhr]

Oblivion is one of those special cases where it is nearly impossible to make a competent character (in the late game) by just playing the game.

Pretty much it just comes down to using illusion as it's an incredibly overpowered spell school.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I have to say that once I figured out that you could use Rage on NPCs and not be charged with assault, well..... well it was just absolutely wonderful.

[valadil]

This is why games should have difficulty settings. Learn on easy or normal, optimize for hard or expert. The gaming industry solved this problem decades ago.

[Dairun Cates]

This is why games should have difficulty settings. Learn on easy or normal, optimize for hard or expert. The gaming industry solved this problem decades ago.

You do understand that the actual game difficulty has nothing to do with this in a lot of cases, right? Being locked out of a significant portion of content, getting an unwinnable scenario, and a lot of these other situations are design flaws that can't be fixed by a simple "difficulty change" (something that not all games have).

As a matter of fact, 90% of games with this problem are Adventure games or RPGs. A genre that traditionally does not HAVE a difficulty setting.

MMO's don't have an "easy" mode (stupid jokes about The Alliance aside), and it's very possible to flat out %^*$ up a build out of the fact that you didn't read some FAQs specifically on how to build your character. It's not a big deal at low levels, but when you get to high levels, you find you're way behind. You quite frankly can find it harder to find a party, and by extension get levels or into Raids because of it.

There are flat out WRONG choices that are not always obvious. If I put all of my points in Strength for my mage, I probably deserve it, but if I end up being a vastly inferior character because I didn't know Ormagon's Omega Omniscient Fireball of Doom was a crappy spell and I can't get those points back ever again, that's a significantly different problem.

We can't expect all builds to be balanced, but someone should be able to make a good decision without reading an FAQ.

There's a certain amount of punishment that just gets to be stupid. If you find out that it's necessary to restart a game because 15 hours in, you screwed up in a way that can't be fixed and it's an honest or even completely understandable mistake, you should have a right to be frustrated. Would you think to feed the Dog a cheese sandwich just so it won't sneeze on you 80 hours of guesswork later?

Maybe this works for the games you play, but there are good games that just legitimately have this design flaw. Saying "adding an easy" really isn't adding much here, and I have the feeling that you haven't actually experienced what some of the people are talking about here first hand.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't think I have royally screwed up a character since I learned English good enough to be able to read menu texts and manuals (and that was a long time ago). I might not choose to play a character that is totally optimized, but instead try to make a character that fits my playing style (like my preference of two-weapon leaping barbarians in D2, or snipers in Oblivion and FO3 (although the sniper is one of the most powerful character types in FO3, now when I think about it))

The problem is that after x number of hours when a game is new I tend to go "...But this character would be more fun to play" or "...I wonder if this would work". And start over.

[Green Bean]

I have to admit, for games with even a modicum of customization I like to look over recommended builds and the like. I've done it ever since my first Diablo 2 Sorceress, where I sunk most of my stat points into a useless stat, and bought a bunch of skills that looked awesome but turned out to be useless against anything that mattered. At a certain point, I stopped being able to do anything against baddies ostensibly my level, and so dozens of hours and 70+ levels went down the drain.

[oyhr]

As a matter of fact, 90% of games with this problem are Adventure games or RPGs. A genre that traditionally does not HAVE a difficulty setting.


Monkey Island 2 had a difficulty setting, didn't it? It let you bypass the really annoying puzzles like getting into the kitchen.

[Dairun Cates]

Monkey Island 2 had a difficulty setting, didn't it? It let you bypass the really annoying puzzles like getting into the kitchen.

You are aware the word traditionally doesn't mean 100% of the time, right? RPGs and Adventure games do NOT generally have difficulty settings. For every 1 you can name that has 1, there's a dozen that don't.

[Myrmex]

In DoW II, I found the snipers sucked, and stealth skills in general were totally useless. You were rewarded for killing as much as possible in as short a time as possible, and as such, sneaking just didn't do anything, since lining up a shot took way too long. Better to jump in with an assault squad and frag 'em all to hell than pussyfoot around.

I did, however, enjoy DoW's autosave feature which kept me from cheating. I am really bad in strategy games where, after I make a decision, and it is a poor one, just reloading a save. Like Civ or HoM&M

[Myatar_Panwar]

Heh, to be honest, I abused the hell out of the snipers in DoW2, and actually found the assault squad lackluster.

[Avilan the Grey]

You are aware the word traditionally doesn't mean 100% of the time, right? RPGs and Adventure games do NOT generally have difficulty settings. For every 1 you can name that has 1, there's a dozen that don't.

I have not played a single cRPG since before BG1 that did not have a difficulty setting.



I have to admit, for games with even a modicum of customization I like to look over recommended builds and the like. I've done it ever since my first Diablo 2 Sorceress, where I sunk most of my stat points into a useless stat, and bought a bunch of skills that looked awesome but turned out to be useless against anything that mattered. At a certain point, I stopped being able to do anything against baddies ostensibly my level, and so dozens of hours and 70+ levels went down the drain.

The various Immunities or Resistances the monsters have in D2 makes it a necessary to do that.
I admit that I usually do something similar with new games: I come up with a character concept and then see if it is viable at all. I don't care if it's not on the "5 most powerful builds" list, as long as it can be played at all.

[Myrmex]

Heh, to be honest, I abused the hell out of the snipers in DoW2, and actually found the assault squad lackluster.

How, though? Getting through a level quickly yielded mad exp.

And jetpacks! Knockback! Grenades!

[Cespenar]

I, too, go with the simplest build I have in my mind and have no problems with most of the games I played. Western RPGs are generally forgiving in that, but as already said, some of the old adventure games have those kind of meta-puzzles, which is annoying to say the least.

Oh, and FFT too. It was rare, in that I blazed through almost half of the game and then just stopped as if hitting a cliff side (don't remember the guy's name but it was a 1 on 1 battle). Then I had to backtrack several saves and just level up my character meaninglessly, before moving forward again.

[factotum]

Bit odd you call this a "mental problem" like it's some sort of affliction. Anyway, I have to admit to severe restart-itis on RPGs, at least for the first part of the game--it's just that I get to a point where I think, "Hold on, this would be so much easier if my character had this ability" and go back to give him that ability. Obviously there's a point past which I won't do that, but I tend to like the character building part of the RPG at least as much as the exploration and storyline.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I have run into this problem in Final Fantasy VII. Because I missed getting the materia that let me cast Slow (A generally useless spell) on the stupid Deamonwall at the end of the irst disc at the Temple of the Ancients and I had not a chance to kill him before he killed me.

[Asheram]

It didn't really break the game for me, but when I go in for an RPG, I go in for 100%
Que, Neverwinter Nights 2. When you finally get your keep, it turns out that you need to go around prospecting. And if you Didn't do that about... 6 game hours earlier, you can never fully upgrade your army's wepaons and armor, due to that you're physically unable to go back and grab those earlier prospecting places.

((... Isn't even a cheat to get it, or a way to teleport back there... that's when I put the game on the shelf for the 8'th time.))

[Grey Paladin]

Real players do not savescum (although the definition changes from game to game).

Do all you can while playing, and if you screw up do your best to win anyway - it is but another challenge for you to conquer.

EDIT: I played through Oblivion with a lightly-armored rogue character, and so mainly leveled stealth, marksmanship, and alchemy. I got to Kvatch around level 20 and each of those monsters took a metric ton of backstabs to take down due to the scaling system making you weaker as you level.

This turned the game into one of stealth and running where I could not take enemies on face-to-face, and had to generally get by them or abuse poison/magic weapons if I had to fight them. I doubt the normal sword&board powergamed character would offer the same experience or challenge.

[Avilan the Grey]

Bit odd you call this a "mental problem" like it's some sort of affliction. Anyway, I have to admit to severe restart-itis on RPGs, at least for the first part of the game--it's just that I get to a point where I think, "Hold on, this would be so much easier if my character had this ability"

I agree, same here.
Often there is a specific skill that you discover either is necessary, and the only companion that has it is annoying as heck, or it is a single skill that is totally worthless, and you do much better just by picking any other.

As a side note I also prefer the early levels in FO3, it fits the setting better that you have to struggle against raiders wearing very little gear IMHO. I think levels 1-10 are the most fun in that game.


EDIT: I played through Oblivion with a lightly-armored rogue character, and so mainly leveled stealth, marksmanship, and alchemy. I got to Kvatch around level 20 and each of those monsters took a metric ton of backstabs to take down due to the scaling system making you weaker as you level.

Oblivion is a game where you need to read the hints and tips for builds, because of the way the leveling works:

In order to make the best of your (any) Build, you should not put any of the skills you use a lot as major skills because that makes you level too fast and run into too powerful enemies. This is not the intention of the makers of the game, but that is how it actually works out. If you are using a Stealth build, put sneak, marksmanship and X as minor skills, and put some things that you use rarely as major skills.

[Triaxx]

Diablo and the like are really the best definition. If you're not using the right things and properly leveled, you'll get stomped later on in the game.

No, the best way to play Oblivion? Stealth and NEVER LEVEL. EVER. Eventually you'll reach master of stealth and be able to one shot everything. Except the Daedra, but those are nasty anyway.

[Grey Paladin]

By playing the game 'wrong' I got a much better experience, in my opinion. That was my entire point - rather than backtracking on my mistake I went with it and beat the game in my 'crippled' state.

Having the best build possible, with very few exceptions, is completely unnecessary and even hurts your enjoyment by making the game too easy.

Triaxx: That's not the best way, that's the easiest way.

[Avilan the Grey]

By playing the game 'wrong' I got a much better experience, in my opinion. That was my entire point - rather than backtracking on my mistake I went with it and beat the game in my 'crippled' state.

Having the best build possible, with very few exceptions, is completely unnecessary and even hurts your enjoyment by making the game too easy.

Triaxx: That's not the best way, that's the easiest way.

Actually, regarding Oblivion: It is actually a better way than the "correct" way, because the leveling system is so botched it doesn't make sense.

Other than that I agree with you in general. A more average build played for character rather than überness, is more fun.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Bit odd you call this a "mental problem" like it's some sort of affliction. Anyway, I have to admit to severe restart-itis on RPGs, at least for the first part of the game--it's just that I get to a point where I think, "Hold on, this would be so much easier if my character had this ability" and go back to give him that ability. Obviously there's a point past which I won't do that, but I tend to like the character building part of the RPG at least as much as the exploration and storyline.

People mentionned the "Unwinnable" situation, but this isn't what I was referring to. Your example is better:

It would be better if you had ability X. But you don't. Why? because you didn't knew it'd be appropriate for that very challenge. What is your first instinct? Go back in the saves and do over again to get ability X.

Why? Why is it your first instinct? Can't you stand having done the wrong thing?

There aren't a lot of games around here (and I will leave out MMORPG) that will effectively cripple you to the point of no-winning because you have accidently screwed over your character.

Why can't you simply roll with your bad choice, and the next time you play the game, you'll make your dream character with the prescience metagaming gives you?

Why can't gamers accept the unknown? This was my point. I was half joking about it being a "mental problem".

But when I hear that on the first playtrough of Baldur's Gate 2, people HAD to get themselves their Kensai --> Mage uber-character, because it was the most powerful class around, and they rushed to get Edwin & Viconia because they were the most powerful NPC to pick up.

I usually regret missing on stuff because of bad choices on my part. But I learn to roll with it. Eventually, I love opening people's thread about the game to learn what I missed. But there is only one first time you play the game. Why mix metagaming to it?

I know I have added fun for discovering the game and its system, and I know I have to roll with it in the end.

I know I always end up optimizing my playstyle in my 3rd replay trough outside help, and I have fun in it.

One can only be done before the other. If I look up optimizing elements first, I will never learn by myself the game, and I will never enjoy the discovery element. In my head, I am merely optimizing the fun I derive out of the game.

I think many of us here can agree that:

- Making the most powerful character is fun (at least once :smallbiggrin:)
- Making a "theme" character that isn't optimised, but meant to play in a special way, is fun

I am just pointing out that

- Making a character organically without fore-knowledge of the endgame is fun to me, and actually giving MY best shot to it. Not gamefaqs's guide. Not the forum's contribution.

I am wondering what is stopping some people from 1) Seeing that there is fun in there and 2) actually enjoying said fun.

On my first playtrough in Oblivion, I felt so darn clever to see the trap in the first Ancient Civilization ruin around, and I figured out how to retrieve the status up the stand. Okay, I won't win a nobel prize for this, but it is my achievement. Nobody told me the solution in a forum.

My first character in KOTOR1 was a nice Soldier/Guardian in heavy armor. I didn't knew I'd become a Jedi later on. I didn't knew Jedi were restricted by armor. I didn't care, I just adjusted my playstyle to find way to make my character work as classicly as it should.

Now, how many people knew that Jedi were restricted by armor, never took a single Melee Weapon feat nor any ranged weapon capacity, because you knew they'd become useless? How many of you simply started all over again when you became a Jedi just to optimise your character based on the knowledge that you would become a Jedi?

(There is nothing wrong with planning your char to be a powerfur Jedi with all the feats that make sense. I did it in my 2nd playtrough. It's just what makes you feel that you HAVE to start over again? Or you HAVE to check on the forum first to make sure you know the spoilers about the game?)

[Aotrs Commander]

I personally spend a great deal of time in character generation either working things out (if it's a new game) or consulting FAQS and data (if it isn't). I hate having to make uniformed decisions, period. It's something that I dislike about JRPGs the most, along with all-too-prevalent missable stuff. I tend to play JRPGs about once (because of the massive time contraints and because I do have to hit all the buttons every time). So I always end up using a FAQ.

Western RPGS, not quite so much, though I'll cheerfully consult them on sandbox games or if I get stuck. Or on second and subsequent playthroughs to squeeze every last drop out of them. But western RPGs tend to be a lot more open in weapon stats and what they do. Documentation for most JRPGs is all under the hood and it drives me bonkers. (IV and EVs for Pokemon, anyone?)

Bioware in particular, are fairly good at letting you know what something is before you actually get it, so you can plan. D&D-based games were usually pretty good, since there was sufficient similarities between the rules sets you could at least make an educated guess.

(Notably, I just last night completed by third complete run-through of Torment, making it officially the RPG I've played the most. The second time I ran through I did a solo run, absolutely maxing out the game (via FAQs and my own experiences) for every single XP. I finished the game neutral...and at level 60... I maxed out as much this time, though with a party - it being about ten years since I last played it all the way through - and ended up finishing off at level 28, which wasn't bad.)

There is only one game I was forced to abandon because I sucked, however, and that was Wizardy 8. I foolishly tried to use offensive magic instead of status effects, and by the time I realised my mistake, I had worked myself into a corner where I was getting whomped by random encounters and the only way to get myself out of it was to spend hours grinding low-level encounters for proficiencies. So I gave that one upo and started again some time later.

I think the problem is usually (but not always) related to how much information is presented during the character generation/levelling process and whether the actual game mechanics interact with said data in an intuitive fashion.

[Celesyne]

I have run into this problem in Final Fantasy VII. Because I missed getting the materia that let me cast Slow (A generally useless spell) on the stupid Deamonwall at the end of the irst disc at the Temple of the Ancients and I had not a chance to kill him before he killed me.

Really? slow affects him? I generally just beat the everliving tar out of him. I've never had to use slow on it to complete that boss. Although on my 1st playthrough it was a massive stumbling block because I was woefully underleveld, but saving and potions/ethers and grinding fixed that.

[Zovc]

In most RPGs, I tend to not powerlevel enough. If there's an opposite to powerleveling, that's what I do.

In Persona 3 and 4 I ran into a 'brutal' manifestation of this issue. I ran into bosses in both games that are literally impossible for me to beat at my level (10-30 below where I should be). My experiences with P4 are much more recent. I still have a save game where I'm at about level 34, and the boss I'm fighting I'm expected to be around level 48-52, I believe. I have spent at least 12 hours min/maxing and mulling over fusions of personae, trying to make the ultimate crack team of personae capable of beating the boss in spite of my level deficit. As you can imagine, I've had trouble with previous bosses, but the level gap has only grown since. With this boss it's practically to the point where my allies hinder me (In light of this realization, I might try fighting the boss with one less team mate... >.>), and there is no doubt that my character carries the entire party. The ultimate problem I run into is that I do not have enough SP to make it through the fight, since healing, supporting, and attacking with one pool of it. I do get the boss to less than 1/4 of his life consistently, but by that time I'm out of gas (SP).

[factotum]

But when I hear that on the first playtrough of Baldur's Gate 2, people HAD to get themselves their Kensai --> Mage uber-character, because it was the most powerful class around, and they rushed to get Edwin & Viconia because they were the most powerful NPC to pick up.

I usually regret missing on stuff because of bad choices on my part. But I learn to roll with it. Eventually, I love opening people's thread about the game to learn what I missed. But there is only one first time you play the game. Why mix metagaming to it?


I think you're suggesting things I don't do. My objective is not to get the most powerful character there is. Conversely, though, I like to feel I'm making progress in a game. Playing the same part over and over because the way I've built my character is suboptimal and I'm struggling is just not fun for me, and playing a game is supposed to be about the jollies, is it not?

Of course, this mainly applies to RPGs in my case. In most games you don't really get a choice how your character works and so you HAVE to push through the hard parts or else give up. I will say now that Independence War 2: Edge of Chaos is the only game that's ever frustrated me to the point that I've simply given up playing it, but the splintered wood on my study door is evidence to a fair few others that have got me really riled!

[Myatar_Panwar]

How, though? Getting through a level quickly yielded mad exp.

And jetpacks! Knockback! Grenades!

I found being able to scout out the area first pretty invaluable. Though to be fair I am pretty bad at RTS style'd games, so any way to slow it down further was a blessing to me.

PLUS being able to place the extreamly overpowered explosive charges and not break stealth was amazing. And the one shot sniper power that the squads leader had was one of the best things to use against bosses, in my experience.

[Artanis]

Actually, regarding Oblivion...the leveling system is so botched it doesn't make sense.

QFT. I looked it up on GameFAQs when I was considering buying it, and they said to make your favored skills the ones you used the LEAST. That is quite possibly the single most counter-intuitive system I've ever seen :smalleek:

[Optimystik]

I think that MMOs have a big problem with this, as spending 30 hours on a character before the difficulty ramps up enough for you to notice how poor your charater is is an exception, but otherwise I totally agree.

Most modern MMOs make this a non-issue by allowing you to respecialize quite cheaply. They have to, since the builds that are "good" change with almost every major patch.


QFT. I looked it up on GameFAQs when I was considering buying it, and they said to make your favored skills the ones you used the LEAST. That is quite possibly the single most counter-intuitive system I've ever seen :smalleek:

Morrowind is/was the same way. Many of the people that tout Bethesda games as paragons of the genre gloss over that little detail.

The "practice your skills to make them better" part of the game is logical and intuitive. It's the gaining levels part (thus making all the enemies harder) that screws you over. If they removed that part of it, the system would work a lot better.

And NEVER, EVER make a skill you use a lot, like Athletics/Acrobatics, a major or minor skill.

[SolkaTruesilver]

QFT. I looked it up on GameFAQs when I was considering buying it, and they said to make your favored skills the ones you used the LEAST. That is quite possibly the single most counter-intuitive system I've ever seen :smalleek:

While we might all agree that Oblivion is a real wreak in term of intuitive development of character, we might also all agree that such blatant failure is the exception rather than the norm.

Rare is the game that would really become unplayable if you use your common sense to play it without resorting to the guides.

[EleventhHour]

Morrowind is/was the same way. Many of the people that tout Bethesda games as paragons of the genre gloss over that little detail.

The "practice your skills to make them better" part of the game is logical and intuitive. It's the gaining levels part (thus making all the enemies harder) that screws you over. If they removed that part of it, the system would work a lot better.

And NEVER, EVER make a skill you use a lot, like Athletics/Acrobatics, a major or minor skill.


The thing about Morrowind is, though, leveling up didn't matter. The beasts stayed the same. (Except the #$%!@ #&!?~$! Cliffracers.) In fact, it was good. The only point in not taking your good skills was if you wanted to be the "I'msostrongit'sridiculous" guy. But you were already that by level 15, anyway.

[Thanatos 51-50]

The thing about Morrowind is, though, leveling up didn't matter. The beasts stayed the same. (Except the #$%!@ #&!?~$! Cliffracers.) In fact, it was good. The only point in not taking your good skills was if you wanted to be the "I'msostrongit'sridiculous" guy. But you were already that by level 15, anyway.

I never really had much trouble with Cliff Races. I hit them, they died, I looted more Racer Plumes because they didn't weigh much and moved on. Never bothered me.

[Asheram]

In most RPGs, I tend to not powerlevel enough. If there's an opposite to powerleveling, that's what I do.

In Persona 3 and 4 I ran into a 'brutal' manifestation of this issue. I ran into bosses in both games that are literally impossible for me to beat at my level (10-30 below where I should be). My experiences with P4 are much more recent. I still have a save game where I'm at about level 34, and the boss I'm fighting I'm expected to be around level 48-52, I believe. I have spent at least 12 hours min/maxing and mulling over fusions of personae, trying to make the ultimate crack team of personae capable of beating the boss in spite of my level deficit. As you can imagine, I've had trouble with previous bosses, but the level gap has only grown since. With this boss it's practically to the point where my allies hinder me (In light of this realization, I might try fighting the boss with one less team mate... >.>), and there is no doubt that my character carries the entire party. The ultimate problem I run into is that I do not have enough SP to make it through the fight, since healing, supporting, and attacking with one pool of it. I do get the boss to less than 1/4 of his life consistently, but by that time I'm out of gas (SP).

That's the main trouble with most JRPG's... They do Expect you to hold up and grind level for a few hours between every story encounter... Ofcourse, there's not telling when a story encounter'll pop up if you don't stay in the very same area you've been all the time.

I've gotten myself wupped quite a few times in The Last remnant...

Also. I'd like to give the FINGER to games that don't give specific stats with specific level. You can ruin characters completely that way!

[Zovc]

Also. I'd like to give the FINGER to games that don't give specific stats with specific level. You can ruin characters completely that way!

I don't have a problem with customisation. I find the amount of fun I have making characters outweighs how much I tend to make crappy characters. Then again, I'm quite good at maximising the main character in Persona 3 & 4, I just seem to have an affinity for those two RPGs systems in particular.

[Asheram]

I don't have a problem with customisation. I find the amount of fun I have making characters outweighs how much I tend to make crappy characters. Then again, I'm quite good at maximising the main character in Persona 3 & 4, I just seem to have an affinity for those two RPGs systems in particular.

Oh, sorry. Not customisation, I'm thinking of JRPG's that gives you a random stat raise depending on how much you've been using said stat.

[Zeful]

Oh, sorry. Not customisation, I'm thinking of JRPG's that gives you a random stat raise depending on how much you've been using said stat.

Can you name one. The only ones I can think of are Final Fantasy 2 and Golden Sun and both are easily manipulated (or completely irrelevant in the case of Golden Sun as the stat gains are always helpful even with just a 1 point raise) to get you the stats you want.

[Ikialev]

Final Fantasy 7 dirge Of Cerberus, to name one.
Also, Golden Sun stats distribution is easily manipulated by relocating djinni.

[Belobog]

Can you name one. The only ones I can think of are Final Fantasy 2 and Golden Sun and both are easily manipulated (or completely irrelevant in the case of Golden Sun as the stat gains are always helpful even with just a 1 point raise) to get you the stats you want.

Strategy RPGs tend to have this as a leveling scheme. Either the stats with follow a curve and generally have a min/max value (like Shining Force) or they'll be tied to an RNG (like Fire Emblem, though the GBA ones can be manipulated). Other than that, I'm having a hard time naming an example outside of Chrono Cross, which is pretty bad without that blemish.

[warty goblin]

Really, I think that at least for RPGs at least 90% of this issue could be solved in two simple steps:

1) If the game employs reasonably rigid classes, allow you to sample the gameplay of all of them within the tutorial before deciding which one you are going to play. Make this part skippable after the first playthrough lest frustration ensue for those playing the game repeatedly.

2) Allow players to respec, and make them aware of this option from the beginning. This shouldn't be on demand or every single level, but should be made available with reasonable frequency. Say every third or fifth level (or whatever playtests best) you get to switch out one or two talents/skills/feats/things for free. This would encourage some experimentation, but still mean that you've got to live with your decision for a while without having those five points you put into crafting before discovering that the crafting in this game sucks so hard it could drain an ocean be a constant thorn in your side. To satisfy those who consider this heretical, put in a "Hardcore" mode where you don't get to do this.

Actually, while we're at it, could we start having RPGs do a better job of indicating what the payoff for various quests is? Because for sidequests it can vary significantly from pocket change to 'grandfather's sword' which is usually the best thing I'll see for five levels, or else a piece of absolute crap. If the reward's an item, let me see the damn thing, if it's money, tell me how much, and so on.

[Optimystik]

2) Allow players to respec, and make them aware of this option from the beginning. This shouldn't be on demand or every single level, but should be made available with reasonable frequency. Say every third or fifth level (or whatever playtests best) you get to switch out one or two talents/skills/feats/things for free. This would encourage some experimentation, but still mean that you've got to live with your decision for a while without having those five points you put into crafting before discovering that the crafting in this game sucks so hard it could drain an ocean be a constant thorn in your side. To satisfy those who consider this heretical, put in a "Hardcore" mode where you don't get to do this.

No, no, no! Do not throttle when players can respecialize. Seriously. Let them trade gold, items, even experience; anything they can farm at their own pace, but don't force them to only have the option to experiment for specified windows of time.

The whole every 3rd/5th/even-numbered level thing is, in my opinion, the worst part about being a character that has to pick its benefits, such as the D&D sorcerer. That's why so many players in D&D love Psychic Reformation.

As for those who consider respeccing "heretical"... nobody's holding a gun to their heads. The whole point of a feature being optional is so that the game doesn't have to cater to the people that don't like it.


Actually, while we're at it, could we start having RPGs do a better job of indicating what the payoff for various quests is? Because for sidequests it can vary significantly from pocket change to 'grandfather's sword' which is usually the best thing I'll see for five levels, or else a piece of absolute crap. If the reward's an item, let me see the damn thing, if it's money, tell me how much, and so on.

WoW does this, though it has the unfortunate problem of only showing you the carrot at the end of that particular leg of the chain rather than the ultimate goal.

[warty goblin]

No, no, no! Do not throttle when players can respecialize. Seriously. Let them trade gold, items, even experience; anything they can farm at their own pace, but don't force them to only have the option to experiment for specified windows of time.

Urg. As a player who does not like farming, grinding or other activities of that nature, I'm less than fond of that notion. If I'm going to go to the trouble of earning a bazillion gold, it's because I want something that costs that much, not because I want to pay off a penalty to get rid of something I don't want. It also more or less implies an unbounded economy with regards to time, which has a lot of gameplay implications.


The whole every 3rd/5th/even-numbered level thing is, in my opinion, the worst part about being a character that has to pick its benefits, such as the D&D sorcerer. That's why so many players in D&D love Psychic Reformation.
Perhaps I was unclear. You would be able to change out feats/whatevers you had gotten more than n levels ago. What you can't do is press a button, then instantly respec any time you want, so when you take Power Attack 3, you are stuck with Power Attack 3 for n levels. Then you can get rid of it, even if you've had it for 2n levels, or whatever.


As for those who consider respeccing "heretical"... nobody's holding a gun to their heads. The whole point of a feature being optional is so that the game doesn't have to cater to the people that don't like it.
I quite agree. However the hardcore mode would do a nice job of parrying allegations of dumbing down and other elitist wankspeak.

[Starbuck_II]

My first character in KOTOR1 was a nice Soldier/Guardian in heavy armor. I didn't knew I'd become a Jedi later on. I didn't knew Jedi were restricted by armor. I didn't care, I just adjusted my playstyle to find way to make my character work as classicly as it should.

Now, how many people knew that Jedi were restricted by armor, never took a single Melee Weapon feat nor any ranged weapon capacity, because you knew they'd become useless? How many of you simply started all over again when you became a Jedi just to optimise your character based on the knowledge that you would become a Jedi?

(There is nothing wrong with planning your char to be a powerfur Jedi with all the feats that make sense. I did it in my 2nd playtrough. It's just what makes you feel that you HAVE to start over again? Or you HAVE to check on the forum first to make sure you know the spoilers about the game?)

Wait... your Jedi didn't wore armor in KotoR? Why?
When I played KotoR I wore armor (I didn't use haste/speed force ability) and it worked well. You have higher AC than robe Jedi, but you have to think carfully about force (some allow armor/some don't).

[Zevox]

My first character in KOTOR1 was a nice Soldier/Guardian in heavy armor. I didn't knew I'd become a Jedi later on. I didn't knew Jedi were restricted by armor. I didn't care, I just adjusted my playstyle to find way to make my character work as classicly as it should.

Now, how many people knew that Jedi were restricted by armor, never took a single Melee Weapon feat nor any ranged weapon capacity, because you knew they'd become useless? How many of you simply started all over again when you became a Jedi just to optimise your character based on the knowledge that you would become a Jedi?
I did this, for the most part, in my first play through of KotOR. Soldier/Guardian, took melee weapon feats early on, wore heavy armor. The difference is I just switched to lightsabers after becoming a Jedi - I still kept the armor, so the only wasted feats were in melee weapons, which didn't really affect the character much. Sure, some force powers were restricted that way, but the benefits of heavy armor, especially in the late game, are still great, and even if using those force powers would be better, you'll still do very well wearing that armor. And you don't need as high of a dexterity score that way, which allows more focus on other stats.

Honestly, reading through this thread, I can't say I've ever encountered any of the so-called "problems" it enumerates, even though RPGs constitute the majority of the games I play, and JRPGs the majority of those. I've never had a situation where picking something sub-optimal screwed me over later. Just made the game a little harder than it would otherwise have been, at worst. I've also only been in a situation where I had to grind, and that was in Disgaea, a series that is in no small part designed around allowing infinite grinding, and even there it was only because I chose to use the reincarnation system to change and improve my characters' classes, which resets your characters to level 1. Theoretically I might have been able to beat the game without doing that and never have had to grind at all.

Zevox

[Triaxx]

Right, sorry, quantifier: The best way under the non-modded levelled system. The best way is to change the leveling system.

The problem isn't that it increases the power of the monsters, it's that the monsters are the Quadratic Wizard to your Linear Warrior. Oddly, it's identical to the problems faced in Final Fantasy Tactics. Your average human relies on equipment to become strong enough to defeat other humans, but monsters don't use any and so are much stronger without equipment, that it's all but impossible to match them. Not to mention that they'll blow through your shield and knock you down, even if you manage to get master blocking.

And insult to injury, cheating doesn't help nearly enough.

[Optimystik]

Urg. As a player who does not like farming, grinding or other activities of that nature, I'm less than fond of that notion. If I'm going to go to the trouble of earning a bazillion gold, it's because I want something that costs that much, not because I want to pay off a penalty to get rid of something I don't want. It also more or less implies an unbounded economy with regards to time, which has a lot of gameplay implications.

Perhaps I was unclear. You would be able to change out feats/whatevers you had gotten more than n levels ago. What you can't do is press a button, then instantly respec any time you want, so when you take Power Attack 3, you are stuck with Power Attack 3 for n levels. Then you can get rid of it, even if you've had it for 2n levels, or whatever.

I admire the goal you're shooting for here (rewarding players who plan ahead and forcing the others to pay attention.) But your method of achieving that goal just reeks of arbitrary. Only being able to undo a misclick, obsolete build or genuine bad choice every N levels assumes that all your players will want to play your game and feel frustrated for those N levels without heading out to check out a competitor's title.

Even worse, your solution will result in a ton of grinding anyway. If I pick power attack at level 10 and realize it sucks, but I can't get rid of it until level 12... I'm going to try and get to level 12 as soon as possible so I can start enjoying my character. The only difference is that you're forcing me to go up against challenging foes (the sort that can let you gain 2 levels in a short amount of time) using a subpar ability. So now your forcing players not only to grind, but to do so using a skill that they hate. As far as ways to make players enjoy your game, that's one of the less effective ideas I've heard.

Compare using another resource besides level milestones to govern respecialization. For example, WoW lets you use gold. Well, there's a ton of ways to get gold in WoW, and many of them don't even force you to play with the "bad" skillset you've chosen. For instance, if I'm a priest who's chosen a healing build, then decide I hate it and want to do damage instead, your way would force me to actually face challenges with my healing build for N levels even though I've decided I hate it; that or roll up a new character. But by making respecialization resource dependent, I can instead ask a friend for spare change, zap mooks far below my level, barter on the auction house, do low-level quests, sell my gear... just about anything.


I quite agree. However the hardcore mode would do a nice job of parrying allegations of dumbing down and other elitist wankspeak.

That's the trouble with elitists; they'll always find something to gripe about. Cater to them with actual difficulty, not artificial difficulty that penalizes non-elitist players.

[Zeful]

That's the trouble with elitists; they'll always find something to gripe about. Cater to them with actual difficulty, not artificial difficulty that penalizes non-elitist players.

Except what qualifies as "Actual Difficulty"? Does a respec option (for instance) provide negative Artificial Difficulty (making the game easier than necessary)?

If a game had a monster that was next to impossible to kill because it resists everything except two or three kinds of monsters but needed a guide to find, is it part of Fake Difficulty?

[warty goblin]

I admire the goal you're shooting for here (rewarding players who plan ahead and forcing the others to pay attention.) But your method of achieving that goal just reeks of arbitrary. Only being able to undo a misclick, obsolete build or genuine bad choice every N levels assumes that all your players will want to play your game and feel frustrated for those N levels without heading out to check out a competitor's title.

I see your objection, and I think it is valid. My solution is still an improvement over never being able to respec however, and it would take a really, really poor decision to make a character completely unplayable.


Even worse, your solution will result in a ton of grinding anyway. If I pick power attack at level 10 and realize it sucks, but I can't get rid of it until level 12... I'm going to try and get to level 12 as soon as possible so I can start enjoying my character. The only difference is that you're forcing me to go up against challenging foes (the sort that can let you gain 2 levels in a short amount of time) using a subpar ability. So now your forcing players not only to grind, but to do so using a skill that they hate. As far as ways to make players enjoy your game, that's one of the less effective ideas I've heard.
That's a response I wouldn't have thought of, probably because it's very different than what I would expect I would do in that situation. It's also valid, and shows that this question requires further thought.


Compare using another resource besides level milestones to govern respecialization. For example, WoW lets you use gold. Well, there's a ton of ways to get gold in WoW, and many of them don't even force you to play with the "bad" skillset you've chosen. For instance, if I'm a priest who's chosen a healing build, then decide I hate it and want to do damage instead, your way would force me to actually face challenges with my healing build for N levels even though I've decided I hate it; that or roll up a new character. But by making respecialization resource dependent, I can instead ask a friend for spare change, zap mooks far below my level, barter on the auction house, do low-level quests, sell my gear... just about anything.

All of this works for an MMO, but fails miserably in a single player game where quests can't be repeated, there isn't an auction house and the amout of capital available to the player may well have a fixed limit, or else be very difficult to earn.

Perhaps the better solution is to have the benefits of leveling up be less massive than traditional.




That's the trouble with elitists; they'll always find something to gripe about. Cater to them with actual difficulty, not artificial difficulty that penalizes non-elitist players.
How is an optional more difficult setting penalizing to non-elitist players? That's like saying that because Diablo has a hardcore mode, its mere existance screws over players who don't use it.

[Eakin]

I, too, go with the simplest build I have in my mind and have no problems with most of the games I played. Western RPGs are generally forgiving in that, but as already said, some of the old adventure games have those kind of meta-puzzles, which is annoying to say the least.

Oh, and FFT too. It was rare, in that I blazed through almost half of the game and then just stopped as if hitting a cliff side (don't remember the guy's name but it was a 1 on 1 battle). Then I had to backtrack several saves and just level up my character meaninglessly, before moving forward again.

His name was Wiegraf. Toughest fight in the game because you can save immediately before the fight and if you do there's no way to go out and shop/level/grind JP, plus it's a one-on-one duel.

In general I don't feel all that much pressure to research a game or character build before I start playing it. I notice that a lot of the complaints or defenses of metagaming revolve around what I would consider to be bad game design choices. Designs that make a game literally unwinnable (not just harder) in certain configurations are one of the greatest evils in game design I can imagine and should be avoided like the plague.

I generally find RPGs, especially JRPGs, too easy. Frankly my ideal game difficulty would be "ass-kickingly hard" but without the possibility of losing four hours of playtime because I forgot to save. Just kick me back to the closest town or safe point with a minor penalty and let me try again.

Not incidentally, I really want to play Demon Soul which sounds like exactly this kind of game.

[Mystic Muse]

My brother always beats weigraf. I think he one-shotted him this one time.

[Eakin]

My brother always beats weigraf. I think he one-shotted him this one time.

Yeah, there's plenty of things you can do to make the fight a cake walk, equip the right accessory to neutralize his lightning attacks or train Ramza in some of the more broken job classes (including his version of the squire class) but if you go in there unprepared and save you're completely screwed

[Triaxx]

Holy element, and then float shoes to escape the punishing death of Earth Slash and all he can do is Wave fist at you. Of course there's also a glitch in his AI that can be exploited as well.