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Korivan
2009-10-25, 08:24 PM
To keep things short and simple.

Backstory: We have a friend thats been playing with us for years, not very good, experienced in 2nd edition and 3rd. Has tendency to play Clerics or Wizards, but is terrible at using them. Takes him forever to create a new character, forgets about his feats, items, skills, class abilities.

Now, we don't want to boot him because he's a really good freind, its just he's not grasping Dnd...apperently ever. In 2nd edition this didn't tend to be much of a problem. But with 3rd giving so many more options he's having a harder and harder time keeping up. And with that he's getting more and more fustrated. So after a while of talking we came to an agreement. I'll make him a character, level it up, it'll be simple yet as powerful and survivable as I can make it...Now I've got to figure out how to do it.

Can anyone help me out. The next game will be gestalt since there will only be 2-3 players in any given session. I'm thinking fighter/barbarion, using the rules that you can switch out class abilities for feats so that I can devote things that he'll forget too often for things to pump up his HP/Saves/etc.

Anyone have any better ideas? Remember, it can't be too complicated, and the better it can survive combat the better. There's no restrictions on templates, but like everything else, everything needs to be converted to basic information and numbers on his character sheet.

Any ideas?

infinitypanda
2009-10-25, 08:41 PM
How about the Omnicaster?
Or failing that, a rogue//barbarian. Or something.

Riffington
2009-10-25, 08:42 PM
How about Barbarian/[Scout or Rogue]. Powerful, deals lotta damage, usually pretty straightforward to play.

Fighter/Barbarian is weak because there's so much overlap between the classes. Changing out barbarian class features for feats is even worse because you don't actually get the feats, since you're gestalting with fighter.

Edit: semininja'd

infinitypanda
2009-10-25, 08:47 PM
There's a bit of an argument over whether bonus feats stack in gestalt, but yeah. Avoid fighter/barbarian. Due to the high number of feats, it's probably more complicated than rogue/barbarian.

Korivan
2009-10-25, 08:50 PM
How about Barbarian/[Scout or Rogue]. Powerful, deals lotta damage, usually pretty straightforward to play.

Fighter/Barbarian is weak because there's so much overlap between the classes. Changing out barbarian class features for feats is even worse because you don't actually get the feats, since you're gestalting with fighter.

Edit: semininja'd

I felt that way too. I'm skeptical about the Rogue...he...doesn't sneak attack well...or ever. He made a gestalt Rogue/Ranger...I've never seen somebody drop into the negatives so many times so quickly.

Kylarra
2009-10-25, 08:53 PM
He doesn't actually need to sneak attack as a rogue. Just use the martial rogue variant so he can get feats in addition to his skillpoints. He won't be like any gestalted fullcaster, but at least he'll have D12 HD, full BAB, two good saves and 8+int skills.

Korivan
2009-10-25, 08:54 PM
There's a bit of an argument over whether bonus feats stack in gestalt, but yeah. Avoid fighter/barbarian. Due to the high number of feats, it's probably more complicated than rogue/barbarian.

Not for me, I can replace those feats for feats that simply boost his saves or something. Remember, he isn't going to be leveling the character...though I would like him to provide impute into what he'd like the character to accomplish.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-25, 08:54 PM
Use a rogue, and take feats that boost skills. Rolling skill checks with a static modifier that can be written on your sheet and not have to be modified is simple...

Thefurmonger
2009-10-25, 08:55 PM
Its not gestalt, but this could be one half. I just made it for my wife.



The build I was thinking is this.

1st: (Lion totem barbarian)- Power Attack
Human Bonus- Cleave
Flaw- Improved Sunder
2nd: (Fighter 1)- Weapon Focus Greatclub (Needed for 3 Mountians)
3rd: (Fighter 2)- Improved Bullrush
3rd- 3 Mountians style (Yes I know she can't make use of it yet, but I cant really fit it anywhere else)
4th: (Barbarian)
5th: (Fighter 3)
6th: (Barbarian)- Combat Brute (for Sundering Cleave)
7th: (Fighter 4)- Shock Trooper (I'm sure we all know why so I wont bother)
8th: (Barbarian)
9th: (Fighter 5)- Deadly Concussion (Drag 333, See below)


For those of you not famillier with Deadly Concussion here is what it does.

Req: Str 13, Perform Precussion 6 Ranks (why she cant have it till 9th), Imp sunder, PA.

Benefit: If you use a bludgeoning weapon to sunder a opponents armor or shield in a SINGLE hit, the opponent takes damage equal to the damage you delt to the item.


The point: She should be decent from Lvl 1. as she levels up she will get more and more options but they will come slowly so she can learn them all (She is fairly new to D&D but has LARP'd for years)

She will be able to charge, use PA at max lowering her AC not to hit with Shock trooper, sunder someones shield causing the same damage to them, then sundering cleave into them again. with lion totem she gets another attack and can then do the same to their armor. IF for some reason they are not dead they have a save to make vs. nausea thanks to 3 mount.

Really fun, fairly effective and SIMPLE.

Paulus
2009-10-25, 09:01 PM
Easy enough make a gestalt Fighter/whatever and just have all the bonus feats be passive bonuses like... ALL IMPROVED TOUGHNESS! a fighter who just hits things and soaks up damage with his MASSIVE HP, also give him the feat Goad, so he can "taunt" things into hitting him and not the others.

As for the other? hmmm maybe Warrior... and then use THOSE bonus feats for more IMPROVED TOUGHNESS, and like... IRON WILL, and uh, LIGHTENING REFLEXES! and uh.... WHATEVER-IT-IS-THAT-OHYEAHHIREMEMBER NOW, GREAT FORTITUDE! That way all he has to keep up with is core mechanics and he'll be so buffed out with high numbers he is bound to be helpful and have some fun. :3

Korivan
2009-10-25, 09:02 PM
He doesn't actually need to sneak attack as a rogue. Just use the martial rogue variant so he can get feats in addition to his skillpoints. He won't be like any gestalted fullcaster, but at least he'll have D12 HD, full BAB, two good saves and 8+int skills.

It would be nice not to have to have him too much of a skill monkey. It would be if it was going to help teach him, but if he's been playing 3rd for over a year, and hasn't got it down by now, I doubt he ever will. Problem is, he doesn't look at his skills. So there is no chance of him coming up with a brilliant plan using his skills.

Jothki
2009-10-25, 09:04 PM
Warlock, maybe? That way he can have a short list of things that he can do in front of him, and not have to worry so much about making decisions except at levelling up.

The J Pizzel
2009-10-25, 09:06 PM
Some might disagree, but a Warblade might be a good choice. Ask him what weapons he wants, optimize his attack and damage, choose his powers, tell him he can use them each once per encounter and you're good to go. Just a thought.

Kylarra
2009-10-25, 09:06 PM
Just for my own amusement.


Barbarian//Soul knife

He'll always have his own weapon, have D12 HD, good saves, and full BAB.

infinitypanda
2009-10-25, 09:07 PM
Some might disagree, but a Warblade might be a good choice. Ask him what weapons he wants, optimize his attack and damage, choose his powers, tell him he can use them each once per encounter and you're good to go. Just a thought.

I disagree. That sounds waaaay too complicated for the player in question. This guy hasn't even gotten the hang of skills after an entire year. And you want him to play a class that specializes in giving melee more options?

Commander_Vimes
2009-10-25, 09:17 PM
A lower powered, non-gestalt, campaign would probably help him a lot. With gestalt's power I think anything not heavily optimized is going to stand out even more than usual.

How is his social RPing? There is a player in my current group who is really awful at remembering how to use all his abilities and building characters, but still contributes to the party by putting a lot of points into the social skills and then RPing them very well (to the point that sometimes he doesn't even roll the check because it was done so well.)

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-25, 09:17 PM
Caster is usually much easier than a melee warrior. It gives them exactly what they can do: their spells. You can do some creative stuff with spells (especially like animate objects, etc...), but if your friend just wants to try the system you can select spells for him that are much more straight forward (magic missile, etc...).

Its much more exciting than a non-caster, sans perhaps tomb of battle which has its own complications.

Cleric is more complicated due to domains, the inifinite spell-list and the fact they are best used buffing themselves and going into battle alongside the fighters. Unless they buff others and heal. Which is lame.

I honestly recommend Evocator (Wizard) or a Sorcerer. Lots of big flashy boom-and-doom spells like Fireball and even Wall of X are pretty appealing to a lot of players. They don't use skills, so your safe there. Throw him an occasional knowledge (arcana) check when the party needs it.

TRY USING FLASHCARDS. Get all of his abilities and seperate them on cards. Each spell, skill with reasonable ranks, etc... Or create a spreadsheet (I prefer the interactivity of cards). But don't isolate him from the group; try doing it yourself and/or get another player to do it too. Its actually quite fun...especially with gear...

http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a237/kitsunewarlock/DnDcards/

Here's a bunch I made using the magic the gathering template and images because...well...I'm lame.

holywhippet
2009-10-25, 09:24 PM
Give your friend a paladin. High survival rate in combat due to their armour, HP and saving throw bonus. They can't cast spells until a few levels in and even then their spellcasting is fairly minor. Just remind your friend about their lay on hands and smite evil abilities where required.

tcrudisi
2009-10-25, 09:35 PM
Actually, I mostly like the idea that Paulus had: Fill out your remaining feats with Improved Toughness. One, it would make him really tough. Second, it would be absolutely hilarious.

Fighter is always a good choice for newer/non-D&D players. I would go so far as to do the optional Rogue where he gets bonus feats instead of sneak attack. Why? For more hp, of course! If you are worried about his power level (and who wouldn't with this really sub-optimal class), give him the feats that lets him Power Attack and reduce his AC (because he's strong enough to take the hits) and maybe the Leap Attack.

For his feats, I would also give him the +2 bonus to Fort, Ref, and Will saves, then Weapon Focus / Weapon Specialization line, Power Attack and the couple listed above. Beyond that? All Improved Toughness. He'll have somewhere around infinite hit points and still be able to dish out some pretty good damage. And for roleplaying? How hard is it to roleplay the toughest S.O.B. around? ^_^

The bonus to this is that everything is listed on his sheet as static bonuses, with the exception of the Power Attack... which you can still list seperately so he knows what his max P.A. does.

Korivan
2009-10-25, 09:38 PM
Alot of good suggestions so far. Giving him a non-gestalt build would indeed be simpiler, but I had hoped to give him more power. Or at least a build that would survive being along-side his combat lovin, adventure crazy, dungeon hoppin buddies.

His social Rping is...well...kinda like is real life role-play. Cool guy once you get to know him...but...thats as far as I'm gonna go other then to say "not so good".

I've also thought of Sorcerer. He plays alot of blaster Wizards. The problem is that he's not so good at defending himself as a wizard, and thats a bad thing when your pumping out lightning bolts or fireballs that paint a big sign to your enemies "THIS IS A CASTER, KILL HIM."

Warlock could be good though. Maybe give him some simple stuff, replace the wording so its easier for him. i.e. the invocation that acts as Shout, and just call it "Shout".

Zaydos
2009-10-25, 09:52 PM
Fighter or barbarian//warlock with hideous blow; big melee damage at low levels?

Faleldir
2009-10-25, 10:04 PM
Anything but Fighter. I suggest Barbarian//Scout.

Eldariel
2009-10-25, 11:46 PM
I suggest Wildshape Ranger on one side (going into Master of Many Forms), Monk on the other. All he needs is a couple of character sheets for his different forms.

Nothing really changes; sure, he'll have Track and such but those aren't really relevant. It should be really easy to grok and pretty efficient. The Monk's mostly there for the Wis to AC; you could proceed with e.g. Barbarian or Fighter from those few levels.


But yeah, Wildshape Ranger/MoMF should be really, really easy to play provided you just suggest him few forms to use and give him the character sheet on those. It's also a strong character so he doesn't have the trouble of having to worry about his own life.

FMArthur
2009-10-25, 11:58 PM
Changing forms is second only to monster summoning in bookkeeping hell.

mabriss lethe
2009-10-25, 11:59 PM
seconding warlock or DFA to keep things relatively simple. I used a similar solution in a game. (Here! have a minotaur. Go squish.)

Be prepared to write out a cheat sheet for the character with total save bonuses/ total hit and damage bonuses (prefigure a certain quantity for power attack if you use that option), maybe write out some careful fight/prefight suggestions.

Psionics, if you choose to use them would be relatively simple. You have X powers and Y power points to fuel it. You can spend more than your manifester level on any one power. Attempt powers in Z order of importance.

Eldariel
2009-10-26, 12:08 AM
Changing forms is second only to monster summoning in bookkeeping hell.

Which is why you have couple of sheets for the forms you actually use and then stick to those forms. Unless you can remember a bunch of 'em by heart (which isn't that hard, really).

JonestheSpy
2009-10-26, 12:13 AM
I agree with the folks in the Fighter camp. Keep it simple, suggest the more passive feats, and skill that only come up when the need for them is explicit, like Swimming and Climbing.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-26, 12:36 AM
This screams Paladin. Go High Cha, high Con, Dwarven Deepwarden Paladin. Steadfast determination for con to will saves, fortification armor, and be a walking wall.

Get the feat that allows shield bonus to apply to touch AC, and divine shield, so that his Cha mod can turn into an enhancement bonus to the shield. That'd be about the only ability he'd need to remember, and he'd be tough as nails.

Go the Holy warrior Paladin (feats instead of spells), and it's a solid concept.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-26, 01:34 AM
High Charisma dwarf... my mind boggles.

Eldariel
2009-10-26, 01:45 AM
Mayhap a Gold Dwarf? At least they don't have Cha penalty (they have Dex instead).

sonofzeal
2009-10-26, 01:54 AM
Mayhap a Gold Dwarf? At least they don't have Cha penalty (they have Dex instead).
Desert Dwarf works too, and are SRD (and hence a little easier to justify to DMs)

sdream
2009-10-26, 12:37 PM
Adding another vote for melee/lock:

So few abilities to juggle, little bookkeeping, yet get TONS of cool flavor.

Hideous blow (houseruled not to suck) works well for melee and gives awesome ranged attacks without pulling out new weapons or tracking ammo.

Rogue/Warlock
Invocations to add essence damage, create shadow, see in darkness, climb walls, boost bluffing/diplomacy all work well, depending on what tricks he likes to do with his character. Unlike spells, invocations need very little paperwork.

Light armor for both, sneak attack damage on eldritch blasts and hideous blow works well. I play a lock and my turns are super easy. Zap. Zap. Zap. Zap.

Barbarian/Warlock
VERY tough, very strong attacks - throw him a bone and let the DR and resistance stack.

subject42
2009-10-26, 01:03 PM
Echoing warlock here. I used it to create a character for somebody once that used two dice.

Not two kinds of dice.

Just two, total.

Myou
2009-10-26, 01:10 PM
Holy Warrior Paladin//Sorcerer

Just remember to pick simple spells that are easy to use.

jiriku
2009-10-26, 01:27 PM
Gestalt is terrible for people who don't understand the rules, but...well, with two players, watcha gonna do?

Adding to what others have said, barbarian and warlock are probably the two simplest classes to play effectively. Stay away from the ubercharger build as that requres, you know, decision-making and math.

You might also consider radically altering your game style to accomodate your player. Create a campaign that focuses more on role-play and exploration of the game world, with less dice-rolling and less need for specific skills or abilities. Create puffball encounters easily defeated even by two poorly built non-gestalt characters. As a DM, I'd normally bristle at lowering the level of involvement in my campaigns like this, but well, if you can't get sufficient competent players to play the game, you may have to just take what you can get.

Radiun
2009-10-26, 01:42 PM
I might have missed it, but what's his play-style?
Does he tend to hang back, rush up front, support, blast, etc.?

It would seem simpler to make a character that dovetails into his natural inclinations instead of one that is simple, yet expects him to act differently than he would.

Person_Man
2009-10-26, 02:04 PM
Two things:

1) I would suggest that you not use Gestalt. If there are only 2-3 players, just give them each a Wand of Out of Combat Healing (homebrew, obviously). The wand takes 1 minute to use, and fully restores all hit points to one individual. It can be used unlimited times per day, by any PC. Or you can just have any player take ranks in UMD (as a Skill, you can take it cross class) or the Arcane Schooling feat and buy Wands of Cure Light Wounds. But my method is easier. Nothing else is really mission critical. If no one has Trapfinding, don't use traps. If no one is a full caster, just tone down combat. Etc.

2) For a class, consider strait Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2). Pre-select his stances and manuevers for him, and print out the appropriate cards for them (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). Choose manuevers and stances which are simple and fun (ie, ones that do not require Full Attack actions, or knowledge of the Trip, Grapple, or Bull Rush rules). Pick feats which are "always on" that don't require math or special knowledge of the rules. In particular, the Aberration (Lords of Madness) and Deformity (Heroes of Horror) feats are pretty good for a melee build (better reach, better stats, flight, etc) plus things like Improved Toughness, Keen Intellect, Insightful Reflexes, and Pierce Magical Concealment (you get to ignore annoying magical effects!). Just to make things even easier, I would even eliminate the recharge mechanic just to streamline things, and let him choose any maneuver he wants each turn as long as he doesn't repeat the same maneuver in consecutive rounds. Now all he has to do is choose which maneuver card he wants to use each turn from a limited number of cool options, and occasionally swap out his stance.

Shpadoinkle
2009-10-26, 02:09 PM
A barbarian/warlock could work. Versatile, survivable, and if he runs out of rages he can still do his warlock stuff. Warlocks have several build options, but they only get access to so many of them, so he can look over the book between games to see what he likes best about his options for his next level, and during play he won't be overwhelmed with options, but shouldn't feel terribly restricted about what he can do.

If you can get him to understand how Sneak Attack works, a rogue/warlock could be pretty good too. Be prepared to wach his actions and offer advice on setting up situations for it to work for the first two or three sessions though ("If you move five feet closer before hitting them with your EB you can add your Sneak Attack damage as well" or something like that.)

deuxhero
2009-10-26, 02:10 PM
Horizon Tripper?

babson99
2009-10-26, 02:40 PM
Feats that will apply to most characters, and require few or no tactical decisions:

Lightning reflexes, great fortitude, and iron will
Endurance and diehard
Toughness
Weapon focus and greater weapon focus
Weapon specialization and greater WS for fighters
Skill focus or any of the improve-two-related-skills feats, like Alertness
Run
Dodge (especially if you just give him a +1 bonus vs. everyone)


Many of these can be taken multiple times, too.

He won't be flashy, but with high saves, high skills, and decent basic attacks he should still make himself useful. There's room for interesting roleplaying, too: the fighter/barbarian who puts all his skill points into learning languages and playing instruments, or the warlock whose saves and footspeed rival those of a monk.

deuxhero
2009-10-26, 02:56 PM
I would have said "improved initiative", a decent feat (better than everything on the list)

Myou
2009-10-26, 03:28 PM
Feats that suck:

Lightning reflexes, great fortitude, and iron will
Endurance and diehard
Toughness
Weapon focus and greater weapon focus
Weapon specialization and greater WS for fighters
Skill focus or any of the improve-two-related-skills feats, like Alertness
Run
Dodge (especially if you just give him a +1 bonus vs. everyone)



There, that's better.

Korivan
2009-10-26, 06:01 PM
To address some questions.

1) His play style is to rush in sword/spells just a swingin/flingin.

2) Warblade or anything out of Tome of Battle or psionics is straight out. None of my players want to learn or try ethat.)

3) Gestalt stays. Both players really want to use it, and I know a Passive Class/Active Class combo can be made.

4) Healing him outside of combat isnt a problem, its keeping his tookus alive DURING combat is the trick.


I like the idea of him being a Dwarf with feats for HP, and just have him be a walking flesh wall. Shapeshifting of anytype is right out I think, he has enough problems looking things up as it is without throwing multiple character sheets at him.

Overall, I just want him to have a character that can
A) Survive moderate challenges without heavy intervention.
B) Contribute to the group, if on a small scale, then working up to more complex things (if possible, I'm planning on spending some 1-1 time just before sessions going over things.)
C) Be able to play and have fun with his character. I think I'm gonna have to get some pretty sweet flaver on his characters looks and background(I'll see what he likes or has in mind), perhaps I can find some pictures of some cool heros, and say "That guy? Ya, thats you".

Riffington
2009-10-26, 06:15 PM
High Charisma dwarf... my mind boggles.

Carrot is a great character.

HCL
2009-10-26, 06:21 PM
Barbarian-->Runescarred Berzerker/Wildshape Ranger --> Primeval

He gets a limited amount of good spellcasting (just tell him the good spells) and he can turn into a big animal and grapple things

scrap the wildshape ranger/primeval if shapeshifting is hard. Champion of Gwynsomething works too (BoED). Maybe paladin of freedom?

Radiun
2009-10-26, 10:58 PM
Let him play a mineral warrior and then add feats to boost the DR or cover his weaknesses.

Seems like the ability to shrug off damage would be the biggest boon his character could have.

Animefunkmaster
2009-10-26, 11:15 PM
I would like to second the feat rogue/Barbarian and Human, otherwise Feat Rogue//Warblade.

Warblade's powers you will probably help select for him, but it should be pretty straight forward. Avoid casting, avoid skill tricks, avoid feats with more than one use (shock trooper as an example), let maneuvers be the useful in combat stuff and feats to pump skills/saves.

Going back to the fighter/barbarian thought. Frenzied berserker. Generally its pretty easy to do things.

KellKheraptis
2009-10-27, 02:03 AM
One side Revenant Blade Frenzied Berserker, the other Kensai Fighter. He will end up god on steroids with that double scimitar, and since he'll have all the relevant feats to dump AC instead of Attack, you can simply keep track of it on your side. A couple notecards can keep track of it for him if he wishes, but even that isn't needed. So long as you routinely record player AC's as a DM, he won't even notice the calc going on behind the scenes, and will love turning anything he charges into chunky salsa.

Draz74
2009-10-27, 02:04 AM
Another vote for Warlock. Such a brilliantly easy class to play.

What to combine it with is tricky, though, if Sneak Attack is too complicated for this guy. Needs to be a melee class, I guess; anything else is too complicated. Fighter has too many options. Barbarian has too little synergy with Warlock. Paladin has alignment issues. Swashbuckler maybe? Hideous Blow channeled through a rapier is ... amusing.

Wait. I think I vote Warlock//Hexblade (dark companion variant). Yeah.

sonofzeal
2009-10-27, 02:15 AM
Warlock//Scout. Grab Fell Flight, and write everything down assuming Skirmish bonuses 24/7, which won't be far off. Dead simple, and quite effective.


(edit) Or, Warlock // Fighter 1 / Scout X. Get full BAB that way, if I remember Gestalt rules correctly. Can substitute something else for Fighter if you want... possibly Ranger (and take Swift Hunter) if that isn't too complicated.

sdream
2009-10-27, 02:58 PM
Another vote for Warlock. Such a brilliantly easy class to play.

What to combine it with is tricky, though, if Sneak Attack is too complicated for this guy. Needs to be a melee class, I guess; anything else is too complicated. Fighter has too many options. Barbarian has too little synergy with Warlock...

Not neccessarily.

Look around and figure out what the rules for that Glaivelock stuff is (lets you turn your eldritch blast into a plasma polearm you can use to make regular melee attacks with reach and full attacks - they overcompensated for how crappy hideous blow is.)

Let his Warlock and Barbarian DR stack, and stock him up with improved toughness feats, reflex save boosts and shorten the haft. Then you have a nigh indestructable battlerager with a free incredible weapon, that can't be lost or stolen.

Focus on Strength, Con, and a little dex, pour all his wealth by level into defensive armor and items (free weapon, remember), and ignore arcane spell failure entirely.

Invocations are entirely secondary to how tough this character will be, but 24 hour buff invocations can be assumed to be always on unless dispelled:

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Invocations-Warlock.pdf

See the Unseen
Spiderwalk
Frightful Blast (an essence, not shape - might be glaivable, good debuff)

Fell Flight
Void Sense
Walk Unseen

Vitriolic Blast (to cut through SR and magic immunity)

That gets you to level 11 and the only choice he makes during combat is if he wants to fear the guy he's shredding, or cut through spell resistance by shredding them with acid.

I think there are some more cool greater invocations for melee in other books, but if he ever reaches Dark invocations, there's plenty of juicy goodness there.

Barmacral
2009-10-27, 03:29 PM
What about a Warmage from the Complete Arcane? Almost all of their spells are HP Damage, and you can pretty much organize them into "single target", "multiple targets" and "other", eliminate the "other" section from his spell list, and switch out any meta-magic feats he gets for feats that improve his stats.

Quietus
2009-10-27, 03:33 PM
I like sdream's idea there - the glaivelock barbarian who simply uses his glaive-shaped invocation to rock out with max power attack would be an incredibly powerful addition.

Alternatively, for a more knight-in-shining-armor angle, I'd consider Paladin/Fighter. Not a lot of synergy between the classes, perhaps, but if you use your normal feats to pick up a "schtick" - mounted combat, or weapon specialization - then use the Fighter bonus feats to pick up things like shield specialization, armor specialization, and Improved Toughness, you can make one hell of a tough cookie to crack. Suboptimal? Sure. But REALLY tough to take down.


Assuming straight human Fighter/Paladin, with the "I am my special weapon" schtick :
Level 1 : Weapon Focus, power attack, improved toughness
Level 2 : Cleave
Level 3 : Improved Toughness
Level 4 : Weapon Specialization
Level 6 : Battle Blessing(? The one that lets you cast Paladin spells as swift actions), Improved Toughness
Level 8 : Melee weapon mastery
Level 9 : Improved Toughness
Level 10 : Greater Weapon Focus
Level 12 : Improved Toughness, Greater Weapon Specialization


The grand total of this is that he gets +4 to attack, +6 to damage at level 12 with his chosen weapon. He's got Improved Toughness five times, for a bonus of 5*level bonus HP - 60 extra HP at this point. Power Attack and Cleave, plus his Paladin abilities,a re the only "active" abilities he's got. And his spellcasting doesn't stop him from being on the front line carving things up, 'cause it's a swift action to cast his Paladin spells. Far from true optimization, but plenty strong enough for a typical game, and fairly simple to play.

Other options are - all of his "regular" feats are Improved Toughness. You could, instead of going Paladin all the way, dodge out of that for Kensai levels by giving up HP to get .. I think it's Combat Expertise? You'd just have to make sure he picked up the right skills to qualify, and remind him of things he can do; Enchanting his own signature weapon, mettle (which you can handle), and other stuff like the "concentration for limited strength bonus" thing.

DragonBaneDM
2009-10-27, 04:22 PM
Anything but Fighter. I suggest Barbarian//Scout.

Why not Fighter? It's the easiest class to play, and easy to make. The only issue is the feats, but since it looks like low enough levels stacking on Toughness and some other static bonuses would seem to work well enough.

Also, it fits the survivability and roleplay issues this guy seems to present.

Faleldir
2009-10-27, 04:27 PM
Because it's so easy to permanently screw up a Fighter build, even with every sourcebook available. The OP's friend is just as likely to forget Fighter feats as any other class feature.

Korivan
2009-10-27, 05:09 PM
I've never thought of combining barbarion and warlock...not a bad combo with how its been suggested. Not at all bad. He'll have good hit dice, DR, some energy resistance. If I pick dwarf and start him with nice CON, and STR, probably some decent Dex...He could end up being a wonderfull frontline warrior. And that would help the other friend(s), giving them a competant frontliner while they can pick something like a wizard/thief/cleric for utility and everything else. I think I'm gonna make three level 1's based on what people have given me here, present them to him, and let him make his choice.

So far...
Dwarf or Human Barbarion/Warlock (I think I'll let the DR stack, I like being nice)

Dwarf Barbarion/Fighter (By swapping the bonus feats off the fighter list and focusing on static abilities like bonuses for saving throws, initiative, damage, etc. It'll be simple, yet durable.)

Dwarf or Human Fighter/Paladin.

I'm really favoring Dwarfs for him. Usually, I like Humans just a little bit more due to their bonus feat and skills help prestiging alot for me. But, I don't know If he's gonna go PrC...Mabye one day, but for now, I think base classes are enough for him.

Shpadoinkle
2009-10-27, 05:49 PM
Barbarian has too little synergy with Warlock.

Eh... I disagree, for this situation at least. Bear in mind we're not looking for a "power" combo, we're looking for an "easy to learn and play" combo.

Barbarian gives him some extra move speed, the most HP available, and some extra defenses (uncanny dodge and such.) Rage is a bonus, and could be flavored as "channeling his inner demon" (or whatever gives him his warlock powers.)

Warlock gives him spell-like abilities that he can use if he's too far away to hit stuff with his sword, plus he doesn't have to worry about running out of them like any other caster would. He can wade into the thick of things or stand back and shoot stuff with his EB, and his other invocations give him more options, some of which are pretty damn cool.

He'll also get good fortitude and will saves and a full BAB.

He's restricted to light armor if he doesn't want his inocations to risk failing, but since it's a character meant just to help the player learn the basics of the game, the ACF for medium armor could be waived.

Indon
2009-10-27, 06:17 PM
Give him a Marshal (Miniatures Handbook) with a high LA/HD race, like Troll.

The Marshal is a full BAB class with two major class features, both of them passive. It has a third, minor class feature that kinda sucks (grant move action X times/day) so you don't need to bother with it.

If playing an LA/HD race strikes you as still being too complex, use Marshal/Paladin with the nonspellcasting variant. Paladin casting kinda sucks anyway, so now he'll just be a guy with really high saves (especially if you decide his major aura will be the +saves aura), a bunch of passive auras the effects of which you can write onto his character sheet, and a mount.

ericgrau
2009-10-27, 07:00 PM
Sorcerer (pick his spells for him) or barbarian.

Barbarian: Any core feat is gonna suck compared to non-core, so I can't pick feats for you. But anything that gives a flat bonus to his attacks all the time with no options or drawbacks is probably good. For gear try boots of speed, a variety of AC items, ability score boosters and eventually a weapon with bonus damage. On the matter of remembering to use boots of speed, simply include it when writing his full attack on his character sheet (don't forget the +1 AB) but not on single attacks. The movement boost is rarely used and it's unlikely that he'll run out of 10 full attacks in a day. Or you can tally them if it's an issue.

Rogue or similar is too hard for a new player to set up sneak attacks or use skills.

Flame_Excess
2009-10-27, 08:09 PM
I'd really really go for a fighter build. That and rogue classes are the easiest to play.

The reason why I wouldn't pick a barbarian build is because of the very crucial and difficult choice of knowing when to go in rage. When you're not too vigilant, you may forget the HP drop at the end. Plus, the barbarian doesn't have as good AC as the fighter has.

It would be simple to roleplay a fighter/fighter. Just double the number of feats, select a lot of passives ones and put the will saves to good to compensate with the average saves.

But if you insist on a regular the gestalt build, go for the fighter/rogue. Don't count on sneaking skills. Pick spot, listen, jump, swimp, climb, search, decipher script, sense motive and some knowledge skills. The sneak attacks will come naturally when flanking and just add a rule where the character can benefit of evasion when bearing a shield.

As for feats, I think it was discussed enough: pick skills that are generally more passive than active ones.

taltamir
2009-10-27, 09:37 PM
Two things:

1) I would suggest that you not use Gestalt. If there are only 2-3 players, just give them each a Wand of Out of Combat Healing (homebrew, obviously). The wand takes 1 minute to use, and fully restores all hit points to one individual. It can be used unlimited times per day, by any PC. Or you can just have any player take ranks in UMD (as a Skill, you can take it cross class) or the Arcane Schooling feat and buy Wands of Cure Light Wounds. But my method is easier. Nothing else is really mission critical. If no one has Trapfinding, don't use traps. If no one is a full caster, just tone down combat. Etc.

I agree, although to keep things simpler and avoid breaking immersion; rathar than a wand of "out of combat healing" declare "infinite cantrip casting".
casters can heal all day long... at 1HP per round. 1 minute = 10 HP / healer in party.