Xykon's Weakness

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not sure if this is worthy to have its own thread but my gut instinc tell me so.

Anyway after rereading Comic #444 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html) and Haley's coment on "sneaking a look into the MM" it just suddenly striked me that Durkon maybe the only character (Apart from V) that can easily damage Xykon.

Lich's have DR 15/Bludgeon and Magic and only Durkon uses a bludgeoning weapon and the level the OotS are (14ish plus) I think his Hammer would be enchanted, anyother PC would have to deal more than 15 points of damage per hit to constantly damage Xykon. Besides that I am sure that Thor's Might would give him and edge in damage output.

So the humble Cleric has the Achiles Hell of the epic Lich.

So what does the Playground thinks?

[Elfin]

DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic isn't much of an obstacle to any 14th level character. Even Roy, who's a fighter (not a very good class), and who's behind the others, level-wise, should be doing at least 30-40 points of damage on a single hit, and on a full attack triple that.

[Mugen Nightgale]

Maybe that's how Durkon dies. After realizing that he rushes into the abomination and gets killed after an Epic Battle that'll put him in the Hall of Awesome. Or not. Anyways that's an entertaining theory.


edit: Why isn't Fighter a good class??? :smallconfused:

[AshDesert]

A bit of a moot point considering that Roy has a +5 Greatsword (negating any DR), and that as a THFing Fighter he'd easily be able to do way more than 15 points of damage per attack with PA. Come to think of it, Elan also has a +3 keen Rapier, again negating Xykon's DR. And those are the only magic weapons specifically mentioned in the comic, it's very conceivable for Haley to have a magic bow and the Belkster to have a set of magic daggers, especially at level 14.

[Elfin]

Haley's bow is a +5 Icy Burst Longbow; so yea, although I don't want to sound harsh, this is a bit of a moot point.

[Luna2048]

A bit of a moot point considering that Roy has a +5 Greatsword (negating any DR), and that as a THFing Fighter he'd easily be able to do way more than 15 points of damage per attack with PA. Come to think of it, Elan also has a +3 keen Rapier, again negating Xykon's DR. And those are the only magic weapons specifically mentioned in the comic, it's very conceivable for Haley to have a magic bow and the Belkster to have a set of magic daggers, especially at level 14.

I think you're thinking of DR 15/Bludgeoning OR Magic, not Bludgeoning AND magic.

[Dusk Eclipse]

DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic isn't much of an obstacle to any 14th level character. Even Roy, who's a fighter (not a very good class), and who's behind the others, level-wise, should be doing at least 30-40 points of damage on a single hit, and on a full attack triple that.

Assuming Roy is 14 level with a BAB of 14/9/4 the DR would apply Three times, and 35 is still a big number.

Also The DR of Xykon is Bluegeon AND Magic so the weapon must posses but qualities to overcome the DR

Edit: Ninja'ed

[Catch]

A bit of a moot point considering that Roy has a +5 Greatsword (negating any DR), and that as a THFing Fighter he'd easily be able to do way more than 15 points of damage per attack with PA. Come to think of it, Elan also has a +3 keen Rapier, again negating Xykon's DR. And those are the only magic weapons specifically mentioned in the comic, it's very conceivable for Haley to have a magic bow and the Belkster to have a set of magic daggers, especially at level 14.

Liches have DR 15/magic and bludgeoning. A weapon has to be of both categories, otherwise it would read DR 15/magic or bludgeoning.

EDIT: I wasted time with formatting. Blasted ninjas.

[Dusk Eclipse]

edit: Why isn't Fighter a good class??? :smallconfused:

At Higher levels the pure amage output of a Fighter is a LOT less than other
classes (especially casters), and in any other situation apart from combat they are practically useless.

[Elfin]

Definitely - even a blaster caster like V does much more damage than a fighter, and a 20th-level fighter without magical aid could be defeated by a 5th, even 3rd level wizard's fly/web/glitterdust.

[JonestheSpy]

Definitely - even a blaster caster like V does much more damage than a fighter, and a 20th-level fighter without magical aid could be defeated by a 5th, even 3rd level wizard's fly/web/glitterdust.

You know, I gotta say I get really tired of these examples that assume the non-wizard is sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

In this case, the remedy is called a composite longbow.

"Oh look, the low-level wizard cast fly. "

Thunk. Thunk. Thunk. Thunk.

That, sir, is an ex-low level wizard.

[Berserk Monk]

Lich's have DR 15/Bludgeon and Magic and only Durkon uses a bludgeoning weapon

Roy's sword has a +5 bonus and was built to harm undead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html)


Besides that I am sure that Thor's Might would give him and edge in damage output.

Liches are immune to lightning damage.

[Forbiddenwar]

back on topic, yes Durkon is suitable built for fighting undead. But then, most clerics are.

[SensFan]

You know, I gotta say I get really tired of these examples that assume the non-wizard is sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

In this case, the remedy is called a composite longbow.

"Oh look, the low-level wizard cast fly. "

Thunk. Thunk. Thunk. Thunk.

That, sir, is an ex-low level wizard.
What if the Wizard starts with Invisibility?

[Berserk Monk]

At Higher levels the pure amage output of a Fighter is a LOT less than other
classes (especially casters), and in any other situation apart from combat they are practically useless.

That's why you turn everything into a combat situation.

[Forbiddenwar]

Roy's sword has a +5 bonus and was built to harm undead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html)

undead yes, liches no, as far as we know, the DM still applies



Liches are immune to lightning damage.

Huh?:smallconfused:
Thors might (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html) is not a lightning damage spell

[Dusk Eclipse]

Roy's sword
Liches are immune to lightning damage.

Thor's Might is the spell that increases Durkon's Size category, Thor's Lighting is the spell wich "launches" lighting

Edit: Ninjaed.....again

[Berserk Monk]

undead yes, liches no, as far as we know, the DM still applies

When did liches stop being undead?:smallconfused:

[Tre of the Wood]

What if the Wizard starts with Invisibility?

Lets see... "Oh no! I'm a 20'th level character with no way of countering invisibility! I only got to this high a level on pure luck! Woe is me!

Honestly, a fighter is a bit tough, but any self-respecting player knows how to equip their fighter with the right equipment to deal with casters. This anywhere from items of protection (to help with saving throws) and a high HP total, with a small assortment of magical trinkets, to Artemis Entreri and Charon's Claw.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Lets see... "Oh no! I'm a 20'th level character with no way of countering invisibility! I only got to this high a level on pure luck! Woe is me!

Honestly, a fighter is a bit tough, but any self-respecting player knows how to equip their fighter with the right equipment to deal with casters. This anywhere from items of protection (to help with saving throws) and a high HP total, with a small assortment of magical trinkets, to Artemis Entreri and Charon's Claw.

"a 20th-level fighter without magical aide "

It is a hypothetical situation

[Kish]

"a 20th-level fighter without magical aide "

It is a hypothetical situation
A 20th-level fighter with no magic items says, "Well, that sucks. However. I'm better off than my companion here, the wizard, who, likewise having no magical items like, say, a spellbook, is pretty close to being a level 20 commoner."

[Lvl45DM!]

well i dont play 3rd edition but in old school 1st we had this thing called detect invisibilty as a skill everyone has that can get close 100% success at 20th level. Or you know he takes blind fighting or something, dont tell me theres no mundane way to learn to fight an invisible opponent.
theres nothing of this sort in modern d and d? wow that upped the ampage on a 2nd level spell
plus even if the fighter cant touch the wizard theres no way the wizard can do more than singe the fighters toenails at such a low level

[Mugen Nightgale]

Not only Thor's Might. There are a lot of spells in the cleric repertoire that would make Xyckon's unlife harder.


Ok, since off-topic is on. Why every melee class has to rush into fights like a suicidal moron? Why people can't assume that a lvl 20 fighter would have some kind of strategy? The caster vs melee showdown is always described like this:
"The caster buffs himself and the enemy stays there patiently waiting for him to finish all his preparations to then rush into deaths clutches."

We all know that wizzies get their ultra uber powerful spells in higher lvls. But didn't we learn something from Belkars fight with Miko and Xyckons fight with V? Power isn't about spells and class features.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not only Thor's Might. There are a lot of spells in the cleric repertoire that would make Xyckon's unlife harder.


I said Thor's Might because thats the only spell (That I recall right now) that Durkon have cast that could be used againts Xykon...maybe the cure X wounds line and heal.

[archon_huskie]

No. Some people can only think in terms of what is stated in the rulebooks.

[Zevox]

Roy's sword has a +5 bonus and was built to harm undead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html)
Still doesn't overcome Xykon's DR, though, since it isn't a bludgeoning weapon, so it'll still do 15 less damage per hit.

But yes, Durkon is the member of the Order best suited to fighting Xykon, both because of his weapon of choice and because he's a Cleric. Being Undead, Liches are pretty vulnerable to Clerics. Cure <level> Wounds and Heal (especially Heal) can really hurt them, and other anti-undead spells (Searing Light, for instance, which will do 10d8 damage per shot with no save) and buffs to help him fight better can really ruin any undead's day.

Zevox

[Lvl45DM!]

Woah wait...a cleric is well suited to fighting undead?
In the words of Fighter:you just blew me!

[JonestheSpy]

"a 20th-level fighter without magical aide "

It is a hypothetical situation

Still plenty of options. Starts out Invisible? Okay, toss a molotov cocktail in the square the wizard was just standing in. Or fire your five arrows into that square - even at a 50% miss chance, you'll probably hit at least twice. And he only gets one offensive spell of before becoming visible again anyway.

Really, though, a fighter's main strength is being the Energizer Bunny. After three or four encounters, a wizard who tries to dominate the field is going to be pretty depleted, while a fighter will be just as effective as he was at the beginning of the first round of the first battle. Which brings us back to Xykon-bashing: to really go for the win, the OotS would want to reverse the normal progression of adventurers fighting the big bad guy. Instead of the party spending their resources fighting through minions before reaching him, they should make Xykon fight a bunch of small battles that aren't enough to make him retreat completely but still use up spells before the final confrontation.

[Hurkyl]

"a 20th-level fighter without magical aide "

It is a hypothetical situation
If the fighter isn't allowed to have magic available to him, then the wizard isn't allowed to have hit points available to him. :smallamused:

[Morty]

Somehow, I doubt Xykon is going to be defeated in a standard boss fight straight out of a D&D session. Though Roy's new anti-spellcaster feat is bound to be used, so he will fight him at least for a while. Still, I doubt Xykon's defeat will be in a regular fight.

[Optimystik]

You know, I gotta say I get really tired of these examples that assume the non-wizard is sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

In this case, the remedy is called a composite longbow.

"Oh look, the low-level wizard cast fly. "

Thunk. Thunk. Thunk. Thunk.

That, sir, is an ex-low level wizard.

Oh hi there! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromarrows.htm)

[AshDesert]

I think you're thinking of DR 15/Bludgeoning OR Magic, not Bludgeoning AND magic.

Damn me and my not reading closely. Yeah, Durkon is pretty much built to best handle Xykon, although he'd probably be more effective using Searing Light in the back and Turning Xykon's undead minions than being up front thwacking away with the rest of them.

[Lvl45DM!]

Oh hi there! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromarrows.htm)

molotov cocktail?
IF one allows that the mage is miraculously prepared for this circumstance

[Optimystik]

molotov cocktail?
IF one allows that the mage is miraculously prepared for this circumstance

Even a low level mage would see the value in preparing spells that protect against arrows and fire; particularly since said protections last for hours.

I'm not saying that the fighter has no chance at all, but against a sufficiently prepared wizard he'll need substantial magic items (or a lot of luck) to redress the balance.

[Hurkyl]

Oh hi there! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromarrows.htm)
Isn't that already covered by "thunk thunk thunk thunk"?

And, um, isn't this assuming that the epic fighter is stuck using nonmagical bow and arrows?

[Boci]

If the fighter isn't allowed to have magic available to him, then the wizard isn't allowed to have hit points available to him. :smallamused:

Er, no? The point is a fighter needs magical gear (a spellbook is not magical) a lot more than casters. Some people are bothered by that, some people aren't. But your example is not relevant as all.



Really, though, a fighter's main strength is being the Energizer Bunny. After three or four encounters, a wizard who tries to dominate the field is going to be pretty depleted, while a fighter will be just as effective as he was at the beginning of the first round of the first battle.

DM: Twinned ray of exhaustion
Wizard: Dam, failed my fort save. Oh well, my spells are still just as affective, and I can move 15ft per round.
Fighter: Made my save. Oh dam, now I cannot move more than 5ft per round without gimping my damage output.


A 20th-level fighter with no magic items says, "Well, that sucks. However. I'm better off than my companion here, the wizard, who, likewise having no magical items like, say, a spellbook, is pretty close to being a level 20 commoner."

Firstly, a spell book is not a magical item. Secondly, even if it was, with spell mastery, a wizard can still handle challanges better than the fighter.

[GreatWyrmGold]

edit: Why isn't Fighter a good class??? :smallconfused:

It's fine...until you compare it to wizards, druids, etc. It's just...bland.

[Mugen Nightgale]

Protection from Arrows is useless if you don't have the time to cast it. Or if your enemy has enough strength to throw a big rock at you or any other non arrow-y project. Once in a session I saw a Barbarian kill a npc using other npc as bludgeon weapon, sure he got some penalty's but with his BaB and huge str hitting a non-melee was easy. This whole "OMFG WIZ IS LIKE SUPAH POWERFUL" is only good on theory the first rule of rpg gives you the freedom to break it.

[Boci]

Protection from Arrows is useless if you don't have the time to cast it. Or if your enemy has enough strength to throw a big rock at you or any other non arrow-y project. Once in a session I saw a Barbarian kill a npc using other npc as bludgeon weapon, sure he got some penalty's but with his BaB and huge str hitting a non-melee was easy. This whole "OMFG WIZ IS LIKE SUPAH POWERFUL" is only good on theory the first rule of rpg gives you the freedom to break it.

If can certainly be overexaggerated on forumes, but it is by no means baseless. A fighter can rarely do more than damage. A dragon's full attack hurts just as much when it has 50hp or 800. A wizard on the over hand can use other options to reduce its abilites from the first round in battle.

[Mugen Nightgale]

There are no good classes. Just good players.

[Optimystik]

Isn't that already covered by "thunk thunk thunk thunk"?

And, um, isn't this assuming that the epic fighter is stuck using nonmagical bow and arrows?

Why would an "epic fighter" be fighting a low level wizard? :smallconfused:


Protection from Arrows is useless if you don't have the time to cast it.

Yeah, those standard actions can be rough. Especially when you can take one to cast it a few hours before you meet the fighter.


Or if your enemy has enough strength to throw a big rock at you or any other non arrow-y project.

The spell is a bit of a misnomer; it protects against a variety of ranged weapons, not just the arrow-shaped ones. That includes rocks, sling bullets, throwing axes, etc.


There are no good classes. Just good players.

There are plenty of subpar classes, however. It's simply a flaw in the system (3.5, that is.)

[Shale]

Why would an "epic fighter" be fighting a low level wizard?

Don't ask me, but that's the scenario.


Definitely - even a blaster caster like V does much more damage than a fighter, and a 20th-level fighter without magical aid could be defeated by a 5th, even 3rd level wizard's fly/web/glitterdust.

[Slayn82]

Well, if lvl 20 rules would be aplied impartially, a good rogue or bard would bluff lvl 20 wizards all the hell and back, making them think twice before using their magic. Or be kinda invisible, where kinda is "hide in plain view, not by magic equals no effect of true seeing" kind. Or get good diplomacy tests with Young Dragons, and field a bunch of them along. Or sneak in someone's bedroom, install a bunch of traps, and go away while the target is still snoring. And a wizard's punny magical traps would be easily bypassed.

So, what? Entering a lvl 20 fighter range is Very bad for your health, specially if he has a weapon of legacy, or a intelligent weapon at all.

About Xykon, i guess he will be destroyed after falling in a barrel of holy water...
Anyway, peasants throwing holy water at a lich can beat it very fast, reasonably cheap, specially with the right support spells. The peasants could be halfings, just for a +2 bonus.... and get a emotions spell, a bard, a cleric's prayer, a battle leader, a faeries fire in the target, a druid's wind tunnel spell from magic of faerum...:smallsigh: and goes on

[leafman]

Couldn't the fighter just wait until the level 3 wizard (it was 3 right?) has cast all its spells for the day? Even a level 5 wizard only has 10 base spells (4 0th, 3 1st, 2 2nd and 1 3rd). If the fighter can't make all his saves or doesn't have enough HP to survive, it must be pretty gimped.

[Tyndmyr]

Protection from Arrows is useless if you don't have the time to cast it. Or if your enemy has enough strength to throw a big rock at you or any other non arrow-y project. Once in a session I saw a Barbarian kill a npc using other npc as bludgeon weapon, sure he got some penalty's but with his BaB and huge str hitting a non-melee was easy. This whole "OMFG WIZ IS LIKE SUPAH POWERFUL" is only good on theory the first rule of rpg gives you the freedom to break it.

Protection from Arrows works against any ranged attacks, not just arrows. This is even referenced in the comic with regards to shuriken.

And seriously, if you're flying, why would you not grab Protection from Arrows? Ranged is the obvious danger.

[Killer Angel]

Still plenty of options. Starts out Invisible? Okay, toss a molotov cocktail in the square the wizard was just standing in. Or fire your five arrows into that square - even at a 50% miss chance, you'll probably hit at least twice. And he only gets one offensive spell of before becoming visible again anyway.



I'm not assuming that the fighter is dumb, but why you assume the wizard is dumb?
the wizard's action is cast invisibility (maybe greater?) and then move, so he's no more there. If we're talking about medium-high level characters, then the wizard has fly 24 hours active, and contingency. A medium lev. will cast dimension door, then prepare, etc.
in a straight fight fighter Vs wizard, there's no way (barring dumb strategy or big luck) the fighter can win.
The fighter MUST have a magical support, and I mean spell, not magical objects, cause the wiz have spells and magical objects, and the fighter must spend A LOT of cash just to overcome some low level utility spell the wiz. use always.

BTW, Xykon play with Roy as the cat with the mouse. Actually, without external support, Roy will be dead meat, simply because, you know, he didn't fly.

[AxeD]

Definitely - even a blaster caster like V does much more damage than a fighter, and a 20th-level fighter without magical aid could be defeated by a 5th, even 3rd level wizard's fly/web/glitterdust.

Not to be insulting, but that's a fairly stupid assumption to make. A 5th level wizard defeating a 20th level fighter? Talk about too much faith in the power of magic.

Firstly, Glitter dust lasts 1 round per level. Fly lasts 1 min, per level. Let's say that your 5th level specialist wizard has 18 INT (which grants an extra spell slot for 1st,2nd and 3rd level spells). That gives him 4 2nd level spells and 3 3rd level spells.


So, we're looking casting glitterdust/web a max of 4 times and fly 3 times. That's not exactly a very threatening selection of spells.

Secondly, as was shown in this OotS comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html), your hit point total is quite important.


Let's say that your wizard (with 14 con) has (5 x 1d4 +2), which is around 16 hp.
A 20th level fighter (with 16 con) would have (20 x 1d10 +3), which would give him around 140-150 hp, easy.

So, if you use glitter dust (4-5 times), which will only last 5 rounds, you're assuming that the fighter is unable to attack the wizard for all 20-25 rounds (ranged and melee attacks). During these 20 rounds, what exactly is the wizard going to do that could 150 damage? Even fitted out with non-magical heavy armour and a shield, the wizard would be hard pressed to hit the fighter with ranged attacks. And its not like there are many 1st-3rd level spells that can do 100+ damage.

The same goes for invisibility. So what if the fighter can't see the wizard? It just means that the wizard will stay alive for the next 5 minutes, on the provision that he doesn't directly attack the fighter or the fighter doesn't succeed in a listen check.

Assuming that the wizard starts casting the fly spell after the glitter dust spells wear off, he can only stay in flight for 15 minutes.

It'd take the fighter (with a non-magical/non-composite longbow = 1d8 dmg) maybe, 3/4 rounds tops with his high BAB to riddle the flying wizard with arrows. Protection from arrows? Use a splash damage weapon like alchemists fire.

Even if he was entangled by the web spell, its not like a DC 20 Strength check is going to be that hard to beat if you're a 20th level fighter.

All of this also assumes that the wizard wins initiative, or is suprise attacking the fighter. Arguably, if the fighter won initiative, crossed the distance to the wizard and hit him with a non-magical great sword, the mage would be a splatter on the ground.

Just because, under certain conditions, one class could beat another, it doesn't mean that the other class if completely terrible.

Like what Kish said, if a wizard was in a situation where he didn't have his spell book, a 5th level fighter might be able to beat the snot out of a 20th level wizard.

[Optimystik]

Ah, but at what level CAN a Wizard take on a Fighter 20? The point is, it will in all probability be well before the Wizard reaches 20 himself. I agree that 5 is an exaggeration, but what about 15? 13, even?

[Killer Angel]

Ah, but at what level CAN a Wizard take on a Fighter 20? The point is, it will in all probability be well before the Wizard reaches 20 himself. I agree that 5 is an exaggeration, but what about 15? 13, even?

My money on the 13° lev. wizard.
At that point, a single contingency (I'm not counting craft spell cont.) protects the wizard against almost all theoretical physical damage. Then he will prepare his counterstrike, goodbye fighter.
But in this case, Roy is not exactly 7-8 lev. higher than Xykon...

This discussion is becoming more and more related to the "roleplaying games forum"... :smallsigh:


Not to be insulting, but that's a fairly stupid assumption to make. A 5th level wizard defeating a 20th level fighter? Talk about too much faith in the power of magic.


I agree. the 20th lev fighter kills the 5th lev. wizard if he wins the initiative.
If the wizard wins, he succesfully escape. Very impressive: with 15 lev. in his favour, the fighter sometime kills the wizard.


Just because, under certain conditions, one class could beat another, it doesn't mean that the other class if completely terrible.


The class is terrible if needs an advantage of 15 lev, to avoid to be killed...

[Optimystik]

But in this case, Roy is not exactly 7-8 lev. higher than Xykon...

And now we've come full circle. Roy's biggest advantage over Xykon is not his skill as a fighter, but his skill as a leader. Origin made this fact clear. And this is likely going to be a key weakness for Xykon; I predict that his disregard for others will turn Redcloak, the MitD, or both against him at a crucial moment.

[Killer Angel]

And now we've come full circle. Roy's biggest advantage over Xykon is not his skill as a fighter, but his skill as a leader. Origin made this fact clear.

On this, I certainly agree. And I hope that, the next time they'll meet, Roy's implement of strategy will be better than a simple "falling on softer ground"... :smalltongue:

[danielmayer]

I vote for Thors' Lightning, as already stated.
Just think about a long ago comic, where not the lightning destroyed the foes....:smallbiggrin:

[The MunchKING]

I vote for Thors' Lightning, as already stated.
Just think about a long ago comic, where not the lightning destroyed the foes....:smallbiggrin:

except as V Proved, Xykon is immune.

[danielmayer]

....you should read #352....

[The MunchKING]

Well if THOR is gunning for him, then you know, there's not a lot the Lich can do....

[Cruiser1]

Protection from Arrows works against any ranged attacks, not just arrows. This is even referenced in the comic with regards to shuriken.Protection From Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm) isn't a very good defense. It only gives DR 10/magic. Any Fighter worth the name has at least a +1 bow to bypass it. Even without any magic whatsoever, a Fighter 20 can easily do more than 10 damage per hit with an arrow, thrown rock, etc.

Wind Wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm) isn't any better. It only deflects arrows and bolts, where rocks and other ranged ammunition have only a 30% miss chance or affect the target normally. Beyond that, in a duel arena the Fighter just runs through the Wind Wall and shoots arrows up at the flying Wizard from below. :smallwink:

[Menas]

What if the Wizard starts with Invisibility?

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature for a low level invisibility spell:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Invisibility_(Spell)

So apart from initiative combat would look pretty much same, along with the end result.

I guess it could help with obtaining initiative or running away... either of which is not going to win the battle.

[Sewblon]

Xykon flies most of the time he actively fights, so if he fights the order out in the open the only reliable ways to damage him would be magic and magic ranged weapons.

[Bibliomancer]

Lets see... "Oh no! I'm a 20'th level character with no way of countering invisibility! I only got to this high a level on pure luck! Woe is me!

Honestly, a fighter is a bit tough, but any self-respecting player knows how to equip their fighter with the right equipment to deal with casters. This anywhere from items of protection (to help with saving throws) and a high HP total, with a small assortment of magical trinkets, to Artemis Entreri and Charon's Claw.

A 20th level commoner could do this as well. The fact that a fighter needs to spend most of his wealth on anti-magic items indicates that magic has a significant advantage over him.


A 20th-level fighter with no magic items says, "Well, that sucks. However. I'm better off than my companion here, the wizard, who, likewise having no magical items like, say, a spellbook, is pretty close to being a level 20 commoner."

Not so. Any self-respecting wizard would have taken the Arcane Mastery feat "in the event that my DM is unfair" and would have several Time Stops, Fireballs (+metamagic), Greater Invisibility, Teleport, and oh, let's say Read Magic spells prepared. The wizard could easily defeat several fighters of the same level using just these spells, and almost an unlimited number if they all had no magical equipment. This assumes that the spellbook was stolen when the wizard had cast all his other spells for the day, which doesn't happen very often above level 9.



Still plenty of options. Starts out Invisible? Okay, toss a molotov cocktail in the square the wizard was just standing in. Or fire your five arrows into that square - even at a 50% miss chance, you'll probably hit at least twice. And he only gets one offensive spell of before becoming visible again anyway.

The wizard can move after casting invisibility, giving you a thirty foot sphere to look through. Listen isn't a fighter class skill (but should be). This is a perfect situation for a ranger.


Really, though, a fighter's main strength is being the Energizer Bunny. After three or four encounters, a wizard who tries to dominate the field is going to be pretty depleted, while a fighter will be just as effective as he was at the beginning of the first round of the first battle.

That's assuming a cleric is on hand to heal the fighter, who otherwise drops by the second or third encounter and stays down. Besides a cleric is a far stronger class than a fighter (clerics are better melee combatants than fighters, even in Oots, occasionally).


Which brings us back to Xykon-bashing: to really go for the win, the OotS would want to reverse the normal progression of adventurers fighting the big bad guy. Instead of the party spending their resources fighting through minions before reaching him, they should make Xykon fight a bunch of small battles that aren't enough to make him retreat completely but still use up spells before the final confrontation.

So, they should recruit a dozen or more other adventuring parties of their level? Nothing less would even slow Xykon down, and even that wouldn't do much. Xykon is 7-8 levels above the Order. Under DnD rules, he barely gets xp for defeating them. In other words, he is as far above them as Belkar is above these hobgoblins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) (almost). And he has MAGIC.

[Elfin]

Not to be insulting, but that's a fairly stupid assumption to make. A 5th level wizard defeating a 20th level fighter? Talk about too much faith in the power of magic.


Yeah, I realize that; I was exaggerating. I definitely didn't mean to completely derail this thread, though.

So, at the risk of sounding like I'm rambling - my point was, as most everyone knows, fighters are much less flexible than many other classes. I didn't intend to turn this into another fighter vs. wizard thread, and I'm sorry that I did.
Because we already have too many of those.

[Kish]

A 20th level commoner could do this as well. The fact that a fighter needs to spend most of his wealth on anti-magic items indicates that magic has a significant advantage over him.

Every level 20 character's wealth allotment goes mostly or entirely to magic items. :smallconfused:


Not so. Any self-respecting wizard would have taken the Arcane Mastery feat

...not core, and I don't think wizards in games that don't use the Complete books have a reason not to respect themselves...

This assumes that the spellbook was stolen when the wizard had cast all his other spells for the day, which doesn't happen very often above level 9.

And how often above level 9 does a fighter have no magical items?

[TheBlackShadow]

I must confess that I have little understanding of this massive fuss. Since Xykon has been defeated before (and by an unarmed Fighter several levels below him while he was surrounded by his horde of minions) and is thus clearly a long way from invincible, no matter the actions or capabilities of his later appearances, such as the second battle with Roy and the fight with Dark Vaarsuvius, I see little point in all this obsessing over his "super secret weakness [spooky woo-ing noise]".

However, one thing I do think people have been ignoring is not Xykon's weakness in a combat scenario, but from a purely tactical point of view, ie, his subordinates. Many of his allies outshine him in certain areas, without them he would never have achieved all that he has, and their loyalty to him is definitely not without question - indeed, quite the opposite. Any defection, and they would be likely to either overwhelm him, best him in single combat, or, at the very least, provide him with a severe tactical disadvantage. Clearly they provide just as great, if not a greater, potential threat than Our Heroes.

Case in Point 1: Redcloak; the true commander of the 20,000-strong Goblin army (though his relationship with the Xykonian Undead Auxiliary Division is somewhat fuzzy), as he, not Xykon, is considered the Supreme Leader of the Goblin peoples and commands their utmost loyalty and respect. He is intelligent, a more-than-competent strategist and leader, and has a fairly good idea of what he is doing at all times. In comparison, Xykon has fairly little binding leadership over anyone, and, considering the callous and unfair treatment of his subordinates, they probably follow hm more out of a mix of fear and mutual gain than anything else. He doesn't seem to have any tactical predilection or ability, and is utterly chaotic, with very little idea of what he's doing beyond a) a general goal, and b) the here-and-now. Redcloak has very little reason to follow him, is even contemptuous and secretly disrespectful of him (as he tends to get in his way and the way of their mutual gain), is considerably less evil besides, and probably has comparable magical-combat abilities. As he also has sole access to Xykon's phylactery, and control of the Goblin People's Liberation Army, Redcloak defecting (which, as you can see, is not completely out of the question) would be disastrous for Xykon.

Case in Point 2: The Monster in the Dark; presumably the ace up Xykon's sleeve, due to his titular remaining in the shadows to keep him concealed from Xykon's enemies, and also his immense strength and combat ability, which would seem to dwarf that of Xykon himself, but his recent behaviour seems to suggest that he has very little motivation to remain in Xykon's entourage. Rather than any sort of evil, he would seem to be more in the region of Neutral Good, and it is his child-like nature that allows Xykon to keep him under control, and his relationship with O-Chul has definitely challenged his allegiances in that regard. Though he is unlikely to openly rebel out of nowhere in the middle of Xykon's court, when it comes to the heat of the moment, and the crux of the issue, possibly the part where Xykon finally reveals him in a last-ditch attempt to win the day, or as a part of his overall master plan, his participation will undoubtably swing the balance and more.

Overall, it would seem that Xykon has just as much, if not more, to fear from his "allies" than his Azurite-Order of the Stick enemies.

[Bibliomancer]

Every level 20 character's wealth allotment goes mostly or entirely to magic items. :smallconfused:

Yes, but a fighter would have to devote those magic items to countering enemy spells, while a wizard could get say, cloaks of resistance, scrolls, and other offensive or more utilitarian items.


...not core, and I don't think wizards in games that don't use the Complete books have a reason not to respect themselves...

Sorry, I meant Spell Mastery, which IS core. Any paranoid wizard would take it.


And how often above level 9 does a fighter have no magical items?

This scenario assumes that both parties LOST their magic items due to DM order, I believe. Besides, a spellbook technically is not a magic item. It does not require a feat or xp to create and might be register under detect magic (read magic is a different case).


However, one thing I do think people have been ignoring is not Xykon's weakness in a combat scenario, but from a purely tactical point of view, ie, his subordinates. Many of his allies outshine him in certain areas, without them he would never have achieved all that he has, and their loyalty to him is definitely not without question - indeed, quite the opposite. Any defection, and they would be likely to either overwhelm him, best him in single combat, or, at the very least, provide him with a severe tactical disadvantage. Clearly they provide just as great, if not a greater, potential threat than Our Heroes.

Xykon has demonstrated the ability to dominate (not the spell, not the other thing) Redcloak time and again, and that makes the hobgoblin army pretty much behind him. Tsukiko is certainly loyal to him above Redcloak, and the MitD, while powerful, couldn't hope to challenge an epic-level caster in one on one combat. Above from melee abilities (which could easily be negated by forcecage), the only power the MitD has demonstrated has been the ability to Wish. Here's how that fight would go:

:mitd: You killed O'chul! Die! *Charge*

:xykon: Forcecage!

:mitd: I wish I weren't trapped! *Pop* *Charge*

:xykon: Forcecage!

:mitd: I'm tired.

[TheBlackShadow]

Xykon has demonstrated the ability to dominate (not the spell, not the other thing) Redcloak time and again, and that makes the hobgoblin army pretty much behind him. Tsukiko is certainly loyal to him above Redcloak, and the MitD, while powerful, couldn't hope to challenge an epic-level caster in one on one combat. Above from melee abilities (which could easily be negated by forcecage), the only power the MitD has demonstrated has been the ability to Wish.

I feel I must, to an extent, disagree with you in this regard. While Redcloak is generally dominated by Xykon, he has been shown to insubordinate him at times, and is really the driving force behind most of the evil war effort. And as for TMitT, he has exhibited massive strength beyond the ability to Wish.

[bladesyz]

Level 5 mage with Fly, PFA, and Invis flies over to the level 20 fighter.

Round 1:

Mage: Fireball!

Fighter: What the? (Fails reflex save, takes 5d6 ~ 18 dmg. Mage is now visible.)

Round 2:

Fighter: Wins initiative and pulls out his Composite Longbow with +6 Str bonus, thanks to feats like Improved Initiative and Quickdraw. Attacks 5 times, all hits, thanks to Rapid Shot, Point-blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Improved Critical: Longbow. That's 1D8 + 8, 19-20/x3 dmg. Any single critical will kill the level 5 mage with 16 HP even with PFA active. At 5 attacks, 10% chance of critical on each attack, the chance of getting a critical is ~40%. Even assuming fighter does not make any criticals, the fighter only needs to roll higher than 5 on his D8 to kill the mage in one round. I didn't even put in Greater Weapon Specialization since I wasn't sure if it's core.

Mage: Urrrkh....

[TheWerdna]

What if the Wizard starts with Invisibility?

Oh no, the fighter is going to be hit by a Fireball that does about 18 dmg at 5th level wehn the fighter has about 115 Hp (not counting Con bonus).

And hes defently not going to make a ref save above 17 when his base Ref save is +6

*sarcasm off*

ok seriously, you are asumeing a low level wizard can beat a high level fighter, who would have abouy 150 Hp with a decent Con agaisnt a wizard who has bout 10-25 Hp at this point and can cast only 2 3ed level spells.

Ya the wizard is dead. Besides any smart fighter has ways to handle this (every charecter i have always get a Cloke of Resistence, aswell as other magic items to help me against casters)

[TheWerdna]

Oh hi there! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromarrows.htm)

for fun i rolled some dice for this to test this therory. a level 20 fighter in one round can fire 4 arrows with a full atk

I rolled a 2, a 8, 5 and a 6. Asumeing the fighter has a Conposit longbow with 22 str (18 score + leveling up) thats 8dmg, 14 dmg, 11dmg, and 12, dmg, total of 7, about 1/3 the hp of said Wizard. also thta asumeing the fighter has no magic arrows or god forbid a magic bow.

Seriously this has to be the msot stupid idea ive ever heard

[danielmayer]

ah, the chance of a crit remains at 10% of course. I can't explain it on english, but statistically there's no such increased chance - you can roll thousands of rolls and never get the 19/20 ;)
But you're still keeping away from the thread:
The "weakness" of Xykon is IMHO his overconfidency in his own abilities.
But while he's been surprised by many actions throughout the comic, he always has shown real concentrated and well-placed actions when cornered in combat. So he's no Noob, but only self-centered.

When Roy had him, he took it with humour, knowing he wasn't in "final" danger at all.
He did show some fear in Sapphire-Throne Room (Ghost Martyrs - simply genial!) and in SoD at the "Gate!". In this only real dangerous situations he proved himself quite capable, if not enough in the first of the above situations.

So the hope relies on the unexpected. I suppose everything Roy comes up with is countered by Team Evil. But as titled in some RPGs, the Bard is nothing else than the Jack-Of-All-Trades.... so.... go Elan!

... and... btw.... Durkon is for buffing! :D

[bladesyz]

ah, the chance of a crit remains at 10% of course. I can't explain it on english, but statistically there's no such increased chance - you can roll thousands of rolls and never get the 19/20 ;)


You need to learn stats.

Chance of NOT getting a crit in 5 attacks = 0.9 ^ 5 ~ 0.6.

Chance of getting AT LEAST ONE crit in 5 attacks ~ 1 - 0.6 = 0.4

[Smiling Knight]

I believe he was referring to the "gambler's fallacy"- the idea that if you flip a coin 9 times and it comes up heads each time, many people will say that it is more likely to turn up tails the next time, despite the fact that the odds are still 50/50.

[Sholos]

Yeah, it's an individual 10% chance on each roll. The chances do not "add up", any more than any other particular roll does. Also, you've still got to confirm a crit, so that lowers the chances below 10%.

[Querzis]

Yes, but a fighter would have to devote those magic items to countering enemy spells, while a wizard could get say, cloaks of resistance, scrolls, and other offensive or more utilitarian items.

...So what? Thats the whole point of the fighter! Hes the meat shield and the energy bunny! The fighter isnt the offensive powerhouse, hes supposed to be the defensive and endurance powerhouse, hes not supposed to get much offensive items except magic weapons! Hes the guy who is still as strong and as dangerous as ever after 15 freaking fight in a row which is something none of the other class, not even the barbarian who wont be able to rage anymore, can do! And what you dont seem to realize is that the wizard is the opposite, hes by far the less endurant class since the sorcerer has more spell and all the other class are at least still able to attack without spell!

Thats what I hate the most about you batman wizard! «We can beat any other class or monster in a duel if we got time to prepare for it and know exactly the abilities of our enemy». BIG DEAL! Not only are you very rarely going to have time to prepare or know exactly what your enemies can do before the fight but more importantly, a class isnt worth what it can do in a duel, a class is worth what it can do overall! Just get a party only made of wizard and throw them in a dungeon. They are gonna get owned badly (that or they are going to have to rest after every encounter and just hope nobody attack them while they sleep.)

One of the most hilarious case I can remember is when Tsukiko was revealed to be a Mystic Theurge. People just laughed saying its a bad class...and then AC war come up. Guess who ran out of spells? V. Guess who didnt and could have kept fighting for a long time? Tsukiko.

Yes wizard are most likely the best duelist as long as they have all their spells at the start of the fight. That doesnt make them the best class. Not at all.

[Optimystik]

Seriously this has to be the msot stupid idea ive ever heard

The point (which you demonstrated wonderfully) is that a level 20 fighter with non-magical equipment was just stymied by a level 5 wizard with nonmagical equipment.

Reverse the situations, and pit the level 5 fighter against the 20 wizard... or hell, the 20 fighter against the 20 wizard. That's what EB was getting at, despite exaggerating slightly.


Thats what I hate the most about you batman wizard! «We can beat any other class or monster in a duel if we got time to prepare for it and know exactly the abilities of our enemy». BIG DEAL! Not only are you very rarely going to have time to prepare or know exactly what your enemies can do before the fight but more importantly, a class isnt worth what it can do in a duel, a class is worth what it can do overall! Just get a party only made of wizard and throw them in a dungeon. They are gonna get owned badly (that or they are going to have to rest after every encounter and just hope nobody attack them while they sleep.)

The idea is to prepare spells that are useful in a variety of situations; that way, no matter your enemy's weakness, you have a way to exploit it. Knowing which specific save-or-die in your arsenal to pull out ahead of time is a bonus, not a requirement.

Polymorph, for instance, is useful in almost any encounter. So is Solid Fog.

[Querzis]

The idea is to prepare spells that are useful in a variety of situations; that way, no matter your enemy's weakness, you have a way to exploit it. Knowing which specific save-or-die in your arsenal to pull out ahead of time is a bonus, not a requirement.

Polymorph, for instance, is useful in almost any encounter. So is Solid Fog.

Great so you take a one-off comment in my post about being prepared in advance that I did intend as being only a bonus and you apparently take it as being my only point. Also, when you replied to TheWerdna, you once again confused being the best duelist with being the best class until you enter a war and discover that by the time you become nothing more then a level 13 commoner in robes, the fighter (or any other class then wizard actually) is still killing stuff. I believe I'll just ignore you now.

[veti]

Yeah, it's an individual 10% chance on each roll. The chances do not "add up", any more than any other particular roll does. Also, you've still got to confirm a crit, so that lowers the chances below 10%.

No, the chances do not add up - but they do accumulate. If you've got five attacks and you crit on a 19, then the chance that every attack in a round will fail to crit are:
0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.9 = 0.59049

So that's a 41% chance (excluding confirmation) that at least one shot will crit.

Let's say the fighter is using a non-magical bow, has only basic weapon focus (+1) and no DEX bonus. Let's also give the 5th level wizard an AC of 16 (14 DEX + Mage Armor). The fighter's using Rapid Shot (-2 to hit) for five attacks, which means to hit he needs:
2 2 2 7 12

First, second, third shots:
10% chance of rolling crit - if rolled, then 95% chance of confirming it = 9.5% final crit chance
Fourth shot: 7%
Fifth shot: 4.5%

Chance that none of the shots will critical:
(0.905 x 0.905 x 0.905 x 0.93 x 0.955) = 0.658.

So the fighter's chance of scoring a crit (and killing the mage outright) in the first full round of attacks is very slightly better than one in three.

Failing that, there's an excellent chance he'll score 4 regular hits. If we give the mage Prot from Arrows, and the fighter a composite bow (minimum equipment to be even remotely fair), then those 4 shots - without criticals - will still do an average of 5 points of damage in the first round, meaning the wizard needs a concentration roll to do whatever she's planning this round.

In the second round, even if the fighter continues unlucky in rolling crits, the Prot from Arrows runs out. And then the wizard is in real trouble.

[Morthis]

...So what? Thats the whole point of the fighter! Hes the meat shield and the energy bunny! The fighter isnt the offensive powerhouse, hes supposed to be the defensive and endurance powerhouse, hes not supposed to get much offensive items except magic weapons! Hes the guy who is still as strong and as dangerous as ever after 15 freaking fight in a row which is something none of the other class, not even the barbarian who wont be able to rage anymore, can do! And what you dont seem to realize is that the wizard is the opposite, hes by far the less endurant class since the sorcerer has more spell and all the other class are at least still able to attack without spell!

The fighter does still need healing support for this. By himself, he still can't keep going, no different than a wizard by himself.


One of the most hilarious case I can remember is when Tsukiko was revealed to be a Mystic Theurge. People just laughed saying its a bad class...and then AC war come up. Guess who ran out of spells? V. Guess who didnt and could have kept fighting for a long time? Tsukiko.

Yes wizard are most likely the best duelist as long as they have all their spells at the start of the fight. That doesnt make them the best class. Not at all.

We also have no clue what Tsukiko did during that war. I would also argue that while V ran out of spells and became useless near the end, when considering any single person on the good side, V probably had the biggest impact on the battle (not counting Soon).

[Querzis]

The fighter does still need healing support for this. By himself, he still can't keep going, no different than a wizard by himself.

Dont remember saying anything against that. Yes, a group with only fighters is just as screwed as the group with only wizards. Totally not the point.


I would also argue that while V ran out of spells and became useless near the end, when considering any single person on the good side, V probably had the biggest impact on the battle (not counting Soon).

Yes he did, by buffing some fighters.

[bladesyz]

The point (which you demonstrated wonderfully) is that a level 20 fighter with non-magical equipment was just stymied by a level 5 wizard with nonmagical equipment.

Reverse the situations, and pit the level 5 fighter against the 20 wizard... or hell, the 20 fighter against the 20 wizard. That's what EB was getting at, despite exaggerating slightly.


I think we just demonstrated quite clearly that a level 20 fighter would mush a level 5 mage.

Now, if it's a level 20 fighter against the level 20 wizard, then the level 20 fighter will be bringing his army with him.

[bladesyz]

We also have no clue what Tsukiko did during that war. I would also argue that while V ran out of spells and became useless near the end, when considering any single person on the good side, V probably had the biggest impact on the battle (not counting Soon).

V's contributions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html) to that battle were arguably less than that of Belkar's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html).

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, but a fighter would have to devote those magic items to countering enemy spells, while a wizard could get say, cloaks of resistance, scrolls, and other offensive or more utilitarian items.

Fighters get magic items to counter wizards.

Wizards get magic items to counter other wizards.

[FoE]

Still doesn't overcome Xykon's DR, though, since it isn't a bludgeoning weapon, so it'll still do 15 less damage per hit.

It was doing a fair bit of damage to Xykon here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html).

[Sewblon]

V's contributions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html) to that battle were arguably less than that of Belkar's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html).

Further proving that the Order will not survive without Belkar.

[Aldrakan]

V's contributions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html) to that battle were arguably less than that of Belkar's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html).

Given that V's efforts held a key defensive position while Belkar primarily killed people attempting to scale the walls, which didn't appear to stop people from actually reaching parapet anyway, that's a bit doubtful. Admittedly, Belkar's slaughter was apparently enough to warrant inclusion in the general's report to Redcloak, but the hobgoblin numbers make Belkar's killings kind of inconsequential compared to keeping the Azurites from having to engage a force three times their number on an even footing.

That said, V's achievements were dependent on fighters supported by clerics. If he'd tried to hold them off on his own he wouldn't have got very far.

[lord_khaine]

Great so you take a one-off comment in my post about being prepared in advance that I did intend as being only a bonus and you apparently take it as being my only point. Also, when you replied to TheWerdna, you once again confused being the best duelist with being the best class until you enter a war and discover that by the time you become nothing more then a level 13 commoner in robes, the fighter (or any other class then wizard actually) is still killing stuff. I believe I'll just ignore you now

As allready mentioned, by the time the wizard finaly runs out of spells then the warrior will have run out of HP a long time ago, turning the contest into a corpse vs a commoner in robes.

[Killer Angel]

Level 5 mage with Fly, PFA, and Invis flies over to the level 20 fighter.
Round 1:
Mage: Fireball!
Fighter: What the? (Fails reflex save, takes 5d6 ~ 18 dmg. Mage is now visible.)

Round 2:



Oh no, the fighter is going to be hit by a Fireball that does about 18 dmg at 5th level wehn the fighter has about 115 Hp (not counting Con bonus).
And hes defently not going to make a ref save above 17 when his base Ref save is +6
*sarcasm off*


Lol, thanks for the laugh.
Do you really think a 5° lev. wizard would try to kill a 20° lev. fighter throwing a fireball at him?
Basic direct damage with ST is horrible, even more than, you know, casting a quicken chain lightning at a lich...

A wizard, when facing an enemy clearly stronger than him, will try to escape. invisibility - move, then fly. Later, he will think to a viable strategy, buying some scrolls.
I'm not pretending that a 5th lev. wiz. can kill a 20th lev. fighter, but pretending that the wizard will cast fireball at him, is silly...


Now, if it's a level 20 fighter against the level 20 wizard, then the level 20 fighter will be bringing his army with him.

Oh no! Poor mooks, condemned to death by their cruel master... :smallfrown:

[ghostaxe]

As allready mentioned, by the time the wizard finaly runs out of spells then the warrior will have run out of HP a long time ago, turning the contest into a corpse vs a commoner in robes.

Because, you know, a potion of Cure Light Wounds costs a staggering 50 gp. With 760k gold for a level 20 character, a Fighter can only restore about 80,000 damage.

But, more realistically, adding a Major Acid/Fire/Cold/Lightning/Sonic resistance to an armor costs 66,000 gp per element (and absorbs 30 damage per attack). Getting all 5 on an armor still leaves you with 430k left for other things, like a +1 Composite Longbow.

[Killer Angel]

Because, you know, a potion of Cure Light Wounds costs a staggering 50 gp. With 760k gold for a level 20 character, a Fighter can only restore about 80,000 damage.

But, more realistically, adding a Major Acid/Fire/Cold/Lightning/Sonic resistance to an armor costs 66,000 gp per element (and absorbs 30 damage per attack). Getting all 5 on an armor still leaves you with 430k left for other things, like a +1 Composite Longbow.

Trust the Forum. in NO WAY a 20th lev. fighter, can kill a 20th lev. wizard.
Or a 20th lev. sorcerer, a 20th lev. cleric, a 20th lev. druid, and so on...

[ghostaxe]

Trust the Forum. in NO WAY a 20th lev. fighter, can kill a 20th lev. wizard.
Or a 20th lev. sorcerer, a 20th lev. cleric, a 20th lev. druid, and so on...

Dude, I wasn't talking about lvl 20 fighter vs. lvl 20 wizard, I was talking about a lvl 20 fighter vs. a lvl 5/9/13 wizard.

Wealth really matters for a lot in D&D.

[Killer Angel]

Dude, I wasn't talking about lvl 20 fighter vs. lvl 20 wizard, I was talking about a lvl 20 fighter vs. a lvl 5/9/13 wizard.

Wealth really matters for a lot in D&D.

I missed the precedent quotes, my bad.
But I would bet my money on the 13th lev. wizard... :smallwink:

[ghostaxe]

I missed the precedent quotes, my bad.
But I would bet my money on the 13th lev. wizard... :smallwink:

Nah, not if I built the fighter :smallbiggrin: Give yourself 11 ranks of Use Magic Device, an item that grants +15 to UMD, and load up on scrolls. Again, wealth will dominate.

IMO, the Wizard really has 3 main end-game tricks up his sleeve: Gate, Shapechange, and Foresight, all through of which are 9th level spells. Gate is just a poorly designed spell because it allows you to get a monster with twice your caster level in HD. Shapechange, like all spells in the Polymorph line, suffer from the problem of being more powerful as more monsters are revealed in MM1,2,3,4. Foresight is somewhat up to DM discretion.

[Slayn82]

First, with a good weapon of legacy, yes, the lvl 20 fighter has a reasonable chance against the wizard. Personally, i like the fighter variant of the manual of the planes, with the ability to prevent teleportation and dispell magic, but you need to be an outsider to qualify. Mordenkainens disjunction can wreak a havok in a fighter, true enought. So, having a good mount, like some Dragon or Demon, can help.

Second, i guess the most damage a lvl 5 wizard could do is probably by throwing something very heavy at the fighter, for 20d6 damage. With shrink item or levitation, its doable. But my money is in the fighter.

Also, does the lvl 20 wizard wants to try his sense motive against a lvl 20 Bard's bluff check? not even trying, i can easilly get +36 in this skill.


Given that V's efforts held a key defensive position while Belkar primarily killed people attempting to scale the walls, which didn't appear to stop people from actually reaching parapet anyway, that's a bit doubtful. Admittedly, Belkar's slaughter was apparently enough to warrant inclusion in the general's report to Redcloak, but the hobgoblin numbers make Belkar's killings kind of inconsequential compared to keeping the Azurites from having to engage a force three times their number on an even footing.

That said, V's achievements were dependent on fighters supported by clerics. If he'd tried to hold them off on his own he wouldn't have got very far.

Well, i would not call turning the eye of fear and flame as an inconsequential action. Belkar was in the middle of the enemy, without support, and got the upper hand over a considerable enemy asset, at the same time sparing a large amount of azurite soldiers and slaugthering the enemy. Alone, this double deal probably puts his contributions to the battle very close to V. And he saved the order from the incoming arrows.

[Killer Angel]

Nah, not if I built the fighter :smallbiggrin: Give yourself 11 ranks of Use Magic Device, an item that grants +15 to UMD, and load up on scrolls. Again, wealth will dominate.

IMO, the Wizard really has 3 main end-game tricks up his sleeve: Gate, Shapechange, and Foresight, all through of which are 9th level spells. Gate is just a poorly designed spell because it allows you to get a monster with twice your caster level in HD. Shapechange, like all spells in the Polymorph line, suffer from the problem of being more powerful as more monsters are revealed in MM1,2,3,4. Foresight is somewhat up to DM discretion.

Ah, I see...
Well, many would object that UMD means that if you need a broken skill to mimic a spellcaster, to compensate the lack in your class and to have a chance, you're proving the Wizard's point.
UMD to me is fine, but is hardly definitive. The wizard can escape, find a secure shelter (rope trick, etc.) and prepare an invisible counterstrike.
A scroll of forcage is fine, and with a dimensional lock (to be sure), screws the fighter.
Well, this thread is really derailing.
That said, I'm not arguing the utility of the fighter in a group, Imo is fundamental, but one Vs one, the casters have too many superior options.

EDIT: more on topic, I'm really glad that in OotS the potential superiority of magic is limited and often screwed by bad tactics or stupid actions. Gives to me a great sense of "reality". And I'm almost sure that will be the poor fighter that will kick the lich's ass... :smallsmile:

[ghostaxe]

Ah, I see...
Well, many would object that UMD means that if you need a broken skill to mimic a spellcaster, to compensate the lack in your class and to have a chance, you're proving the Wizard's point.
UMD to me is fine, but is hardly definitive. The wizard can escape, find a secure shelter (rope trick, etc.) and prepare an invisible counterstrike.
A scroll of forcage is fine, and with a dimensional lock (to be sure), screws the fighter.
Well, this thread is really derailing.
That said, I'm not arguing the utility of the fighter in a group, Imo is fundamental, but one Vs one, the casters have too many superior options.

I don't think UMD is a broken skill... the DCs are high enough that it's pretty hard to muster a +20 check at low levels to guarantee success.

Also, UMD doesn't only allow you access to Wizard spells, it also allows you access to Cleric, Druid, and Sorceror spells (I'm particularly fond of the ones in Races of the Dragon... Wings of Flurry for Nd6 force damage with no cap, plus a stun effect!). My point is that with a sufficient wealth edge, any class advantage can be overcome via UMD, which I would argue is good design.

The Wizard can't escape, because Moment of Prescience (wiz 8) gives the Fighter a +20 to his Initiative bonus. Plus, the Fighter, with his orgy of feats, easily has Improved Initiative and whatever other initiative booster feats from splatbooks. That, and, let's say, Destruction (cleric 7) means game over for the Wizard.

[Killer Angel]

The Wizard can't escape, because Moment of Prescience (wiz 8) gives the Fighter a +20 to his Initiative bonus. Plus, the Fighter, with his orgy of feats, easily has Improved Initiative and whatever other initiative booster feats from splatbooks. That, and, let's say, Destruction (cleric 7) means game over for the Wizard.

Also the wizard have IE (going first is terribly a good thing for him), and probably will have a better dex than your fighter.
The wizard escapes simply because you've got no way to bypass his contingency.

[ghostaxe]

Also the wizard have IE (going first is terribly a good thing for him), and probably will have a better dex than your fighter.
The wizard escapes simply because you've got no way to bypass his contingency.

What? Why would a Wizard have better DEX than a fighter? All of the Wizard's stat-ups are going to INT, while the fighter can have them going to DEX. Plus, the lvl 20 fighter can easily afford a +6 Gloves of DEX, while the lvl 13 wizard (110k total wealth) is going to think twice before spending a third of it on the Gloves of DEX. Also, the Fighter can buy a Tome of +5 innate DEX (138.5k), which the wizard won't be able to afford. That +5 and the extra +2 from lvl 16 and 20, and you're looking at your wizard being behind by at least a +3 on the initiative roll. And that's not even counting the Moment of Prescience.

Contingency on what? Teleport if you see a beefy guy? I mean, you're not allowed to metagame and say Teleport contingent on seeing a lvl 20 character, because a character's level isn't written on his face. Contingent on being thrown into an arena against someone wearing armor? You'll be fleeing against a lot of level 1 fighters then...

EDIT: If you mean Contingency teleport if you are dropped to 1/2 HP, contingency works after the event triggering it. Meaning you'd eat the Destruction spell, or the Pouncing Power Attacking Fighter attacks, before it activates. So you'd have a corpse teleported to your hideout.

[Slayn82]

Could not agree anymore with you, ghostaxe:smallwink: also, for those wizards who take craft contingent spell, the same reasoning applies, even if they have a bunch more of contingencies.

[TriForce]

for every person that considers a fighter a bad class, there is another who thinks the wizard is better off getting scratched out since he doesnt do anything anyway :P

all of this is highly situational, most of the arguements here assume the wizard knows whats comming and has plenty of time to prepare, wich is a very important part of being a wizard. also some here are assuming the wizard and the figher dual while others compare their value to a full party.

but forgetting all the powerplay ( people who like that the most are better off playing computer games instead of dnd, it gives them more of what they want since its completly devoted to combat) its also a lot of fun to ROLEPLAY a fighter, in that, i could say its better then a wizard :smallwink: its all depending on the player ofc, but usually its the wizard playing he straight man, and the fighter providing comedy :)

[Killer Angel]

What? Why would a Wizard have better DEX than a fighter? All of the Wizard's stat-ups are going to INT, while the fighter can have them going to DEX. Plus, the lvl 20 fighter can easily afford a +6 Gloves of DEX, while the lvl 13 wizard (110k total wealth) is going to think twice before spending a third of it on the Gloves of DEX. Also, the Fighter can buy a Tome of +5 innate DEX (138.5k), which the wizard won't be able to afford. That +5 and the extra +2 from lvl 16 and 20, and you're looking at your wizard being behind by at least a +3 on the initiative roll. And that's not even counting the Moment of Prescience.

Contingency on what? Teleport if you see a beefy guy? I mean, you're not allowed to metagame and say Teleport contingent on seeing a lvl 20 character, because a character's level isn't written on his face. Contingent on being thrown into an arena against someone wearing armor? You'll be fleeing against a lot of level 1 fighters then...

EDIT: If you mean Contingency teleport if you are dropped to 1/2 HP, contingency works after the event triggering it. Meaning you'd eat the Destruction spell, or the Pouncing Power Attacking Fighter attacks, before it activates. So you'd have a corpse teleported to your hideout.

I suggest you to open a thread on this topic in the roleplaying games forum, it's more suited there. It would be interesting and we wouldn't waste posts in this thread.

That said, some brief notes:
On dex: with 7 lev. of differences, maybe you're right, merely for the money... but the fighter usually invest in strenght and con, and his 3rd characteristic isn't dex... if he really wanna count on UMD. An high dex is also useless if you wear an armor, unless you're going to the celestial armor.
Wizard invest on Int, then on Con OR Dex (for AC, to hit with rays, initiative, etc). I would go for Dex, and Con for third.

The contingency can be setted in the line of "if someone attacks me in melee" or something similar. I assure you that on the roleplaying forum, you'll find Contingencies virtually unattackables. Not counting (outside core) the horribles Craft spell contingency or Celerity (at this point, the wizard wins initiative, regardless any of your effort).

[Killer Angel]

all of this is highly situational, most of the arguements here assume the wizard knows whats comming and has plenty of time to prepare, wich is a very important part of being a wizard. also some here are assuming the wizard and the figher dual while others compare their value to a full party.


Dont' get me wrong: Wiz. and fighter ARE complemental. The group is OK until they work togheter.

I don't like PC vs PC and arena, but if someone thinks that a fighter can beat alone a wizard, I disagree (and the wizard, as grows up in level, tends to be always prepared, because he'll have a large repertoire of spells and utilities for any occasion, targeting different things).

[ghostaxe]

I suggest you to open a thread on this topic in the roleplaying games forum, it's more suited there. It would be interesting and we wouldn't waste posts in this thread.

That said, some brief notes:
On dex: with 7 lev. of differences, maybe you're right, merely for the money... but the fighter usually invest in strenght and con, and his 3rd characteristic isn't dex... if he really wanna count on UMD. An high dex is also useless if you wear an armor, unless you're going to the celestial armor.
Wizard invest on Int, then on Con OR Dex (for AC, to hit with rays, initiative, etc). I would go for Dex, and Con for third.

The contingency can be setted in the line of "if someone attacks me in melee" or something similar. I assure you that on the roleplaying forum, you'll find Contingencies virtually unattackables. Not counting (outside core) the horribles Craft spell contingency or Celerity (at this point, the wizard wins initiative, regardless any of your effort).

Your contingency argument still fails, because the contingency spell is applied after the action triggering it. So you would take one melee attack, at least, before the contingent spell kicks in. Against a ranged spell like Destruction, you had just better hope your Fort save roll is high. You are misunderstanding the Celerity spell, and its trigger "immediate action." You can only take immediate actions when you are not flat-footed, and you are considered flat-footed until you take your first turn. So losing initiative means you can't use Celerity.

High STR and CON fighter? Blasphemy! Granted that I would never play a straight Fighter 20, but whenever I did play melee classes, I would always build for a high touch AC, because there are just too many really strong Ranged Touch attacks, including Ray of Stupidity (and its metamagicked variants), Antimagic Ray, etc.

Weapon Finesse isn't only for Rogues, you know. One of my best characters was a Halfling with Quick-Draw, Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Poison Use. He basically loaded up a few dozen poisoned daggers, and during combat would attack, drop the poisoned-expended weapon, Quick draw another poisoned weapon, etc. There's nothing quite like forcing your enemy to take 14d6 CON damage in one round with 7 hits (how many characters have CON over 49?).

Here's really the stat block I would go with (with a Halfling, let's say):

STR: 10 (4 pt)
DEX: 19 (13 pt)
CON: 14 (6 pt)
INT: 10 (2 pt)
WIS: 10 (2 pt)
CHA: 14 (6 pt)

This is a 33 point buy, which is a bit high, but you can imagine the DEX being 17 for a 28 point buy.

[Morthis]

Yes he did, by buffing some fighters.

Even beyond that. He dismissed 3 titanium elementals while the rest of the party could only take on two. If he hadn't, the walls would have been destroyed and azure city would have fallen a lot sooner.

You're right, with clerical and magical support, a fighter becomes very durable and can keep on killing, which is their big selling point. If you consider either individually though, the wizard will remain extremely useful during a war like that, whereas the fighter without support will not be able to have nearly as much of an impact.


V's contributions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html) to that battle were arguably less than that of Belkar's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html).

I don't think Belkar's contributions are even remotely close to V's. Even if we're generous and say Belkar killed 1000 hobgoblins, which is a very high estimate. This would just mean azure city is outnumbered 2.85 to 1 instead of 3 to 1, still terrible odds.

That's sort of the point with this war. Spells, especially utility spells, beat melee combat simply because melee combat is provided by the thousands of soldiers already. Even though they are individually weak, together they adds up to a hell of a lot more than any fighter type PC could hope to do. Meanwhile, spells that support those thousands of soldiers or keep the odds in their favor are much more likely to impact the outcome of the battle than a single PC going around just killing stuff.

[Optimystik]

Great so you take a one-off comment in my post about being prepared in advance that I did intend as being only a bonus and you apparently take it as being my only point. Also, when you replied to TheWerdna, you once again confused being the best duelist with being the best class until you enter a war and discover that by the time you become nothing more then a level 13 commoner in robes, the fighter (or any other class then wizard actually) is still killing stuff. I believe I'll just ignore you now.

Why so serious? :smallconfused:
I was merely pointing out that the old saw "wizards have to know what's coming or they're useless" has little basis even when sticking just to core. Some spells are just so versatile that they're always worth preparing - again, like Polymorph and Solid Fog. I never said that was your only point, it was just one that was coming up from multiple posters and I happened to quote the version from your post. If you thought I was picking on you personally, I assure you that wasn't my intention.

As for a war, no wizard worth his salt will ever end up being a "level 13 commoner in robes." Even just sticking to core he can still use spell trigger and completion items all day long (a fact that Vaarsuvius should have made use of - really, there were no wands anywhere in all of Azure City?), and once we migrate from core and into the land of reserve feats, he's extremely hard-pressed to run out of steam.

Finally, from a realism standpoint, wearing full plate and swinging a sword around for hours on end can get pretty tiring too, and is probably just as if not more tiring than casting spells. Sure the fighter might still be killing stuff, but he's just as likely to get killed himself by going toe-to-toe with the enemy while tired. RAW D&D makes fighters out to be energizer bunnies, but stories based on it are a different matter.

[Killer Angel]

Your contingency argument still fails, because the contingency spell is applied after the action triggering it.

At the risk of repeating myself, you should really create a thread on the Roleplaying games section, with your build, then await for the piranhas to come...
I assure you bloodshed and shredding. :smallwink:

EDIT: nevermind, here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7199666#post7199666).
If we want to continue the discussion there, you're all welcome.

PS: how was supposed to do damage your fighter halflin without strenght bonuses? poison? really? Poisons don't work against a lot of things, are not cheap and are far from a good tactic: the ST are usually low.

[Aldrakan]

Well, i would not call turning the eye of fear and flame as an inconsequential action. Belkar was in the middle of the enemy, without support, and got the upper hand over a considerable enemy asset, at the same time sparing a large amount of azurite soldiers and slaugthering the enemy. Alone, this double deal probably puts his contributions to the battle very close to V. And he saved the order from the incoming arrows.

This is getting into the area where humor makes rules discussions foggy, but let's say that I have some doubts over how formidable an asset the EoFaF constituted. Given that it's immediate reaction to an enemy was to cower and make weak threats instead of, you know, attacking. I could probably have stopped that thing.
And as I stated, given Belkar's location at the base of the walls it's clear that the tactical benefit he should have provided was to prevent hobgoblins from scaling the wall. Which we see clearly from the people fighting all over the walls, he was not doing.
Given the size of the hobgoblins reserves, it seems unlikely that the forces spared to oppose him hindered their attack significantly. There's little evidence that he had much effect on the conflicts between the soldiery.

You can say he saved the order, though frankly I doubt a group of hobgoblins capable of being taken out with 1 fireball provided much threat to them. And in any case, that event occurred after the battle had been lost. That helped them escape, but it didn't affect the tides of battle.

[ghostaxe]

At the risk of repeating myself, you should really create a thread on the Roleplaying games section, with your build, then await for the piranhas to come...
I assure you bloodshed and shredding. :smallwink:

EDIT: nevermind, here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7199666#post7199666).
If we want to continue the discussion there, you're all welcome.

PS: how was supposed to do damage your fighter halflin without strenght bonuses? poison? really? Poisons don't work against a lot of things, are not cheap and are far from a good tactic: the ST are usually low.

Yeah, poisons did most of the damage for that build, plus sneak attack dice. Poisons are expensive, true, but it's not so bad when you harvest it yourself after killing some poisonous monsters.

Hey, I never said that character was good against everything (like Golems). It was just really, really good against certain targets (basically everything susceptible to poison and sneak attack).

EDIT: Regarding the saving throw... monsters roll natural 1's too... force them to make enough rolls and you've got it to stick. Actually using the WIS poisons from BoVD was pretty fun too, and worked better against monsters. CON poison is good for urban setting and killing NPCs.

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, poisons did most of the damage for that build, plus sneak attack dice. Poisons are expensive, true, but it's not so bad when you harvest it yourself after killing some poisonous monsters.


Sneak attacks are another matter... they usually don't enter in a straight fighter build (the one we' were discussing).
And harvesting the monsters... you must find and fight them, and also in this case, a fighter isn't the best character to handle poison...

[derfenrirwolv]

should be doing at least 30-40 points of damage on a single hit

To Xykon Roy should be doing at best 2d6= 7 +10 (1.5 assuming a 24 str) +5 (magic), +2 (undead bane) +7 (2d6 undead bane extra damage) +2 (specialization)

This is assuming the energy doesn't do something weird like make all of the damage cut through his reduction.

33 points of damage per hit, minus 15 points per hit.. effectively cutting Roy's damage in half to roughly 15.

Durkon would be doing at least 1d6 (3.5)+ 3 +1= 7.5 damage, quite possibly more.

power attack may or may not be useful for roy, i'd need to have a rough idea of xykons ac to know. Since he's apparently been cranking out touch ac magic items, i'm going to guesse not.

[The MunchKING]

I believe he was referring to the "gambler's fallacy"- the idea that if you flip a coin 9 times and it comes up heads each time, many people will say that it is more likely to turn up tails the next time, despite the fact that the odds are still 50/50.

Nah it's more likely to be HEADS, as obviously that coin is weighted. :smallbiggrin:

[bladesyz]

This entire debate started with somebody claiming that the fighter is a bad class, and that a level 5 mage can beat a level 20 fighter.

Now that we have conclusively disproved the latter (unless you define "beating" as "successfully running away"), let's examing the first claim.

In any claim that a level 20 Mage can beat a level 20 Fighter, the pro-mage camp always assumes two things:

1- The fighter has no magic items
2- The mage has time to buff himself up with all his spells.

They then somehow manage to convince themselves that this is fair.

If you pit a level 20 fighter against a level 20 mage, both naked and without any prior preparation, the fighter would win if he wins initiative and/or makes his saving throw.

However, that's not really the point. The point is the fallacy that somehow, caster classes are *better* than non-caster classes. Supporters of that fallacy ALWAYS takes out the fighter vs mage argument.

Here's a thought, why not make it a Monk vs Mage? Put a Monk and a Mage together, of equal level, both without magic items, starting on equal footing. Now see who would win. For even more fun, make it a Drow Monk.

[TehSheen]

Alright guys, I have something so that Clerics aren't that useful against Xykon.

SoD spoilers

Xykon has a ring that guards him from positive energy, so that Right-Eye couldn't have sneak attacked him in the battle above Redmountain Hills

[Dusk Eclipse]

Alright guys, I have something so that Clerics aren't that useful against Xykon.

SoD spoilers

Xykon has a ring that guards him from positive energy, so that Right-Eye couldn't have sneak attacked him in the battle above Redmountain Hills
Durkon is still a bit better in straight combat than the rest of the party, he still is the only one who bypasses Xykon's Damage reduction

[One Step Two]

Alright guys, I have something so that Clerics aren't that useful against Xykon.

SoD spoilers

Xykon has a ring that guards him from positive energy, so that Right-Eye couldn't have sneak attacked him in the battle above Redmountain Hills

Just out of curiosity, when Xykon was 'sploded at the Redmountain gate, I don't think Redcloak took the time to gather up his masters magical items. Indeed, V got his wing of wizardry, and Roy grabbed the (non-magical) crown. Would he still have that item? Would he have kept that item in lieu of other rings?

[Bibliomancer]

Durkon is still a bit better in straight combat than the rest of the party, he still is the only one who bypasses Xykon's Damage reduction

He's also proof that Clerics can replace fighters without trying, freeing a spot in a three person party for a sorcerer or another wizard. I was disappointed that the paladins did not equip themselves with halberds before going to die. I found that shortsighted and inflexible.