The Dread Bard [3.5 PrC, Please PEACH]

[Gorgondantess]

Okay! This is my first PrC, made for one of my games in which I have a dread necromancer so spoony, he's taking levels in bard. I wanted to make something so that his power level wouldn't be totally crippled, so...

The Dread Bard:
Any ideas on a better name and on expanding the fluff would be much appreciated.

http://dyn.ifilm.com/resize/image/stills/films/resize/istd/2679574.jpg
Lord Ezekiel, a skeletal Dread Bard and his band. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYb8Wm6-QfA)

Requirements:
Skills: Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks, Perform 8 Ranks
Spells: 1st level Bardic Spellcasting
Special: Negative Energy Burst Class Feature

{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Advancement
1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Harrowing Song|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Incorporeality|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Entropic Music|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Advanced Learning|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Dem Bones|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|Incorporeality|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Ghost Abilities|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+2|
+6|Advanced Learning|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+3|
+6|Backup Singer|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+3|
+7|Dem Bones (greater)|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+3|
+7|Advanced Learning|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|Incorporeality|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|Hark, My Skeletal Lovelies|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+4|
+9|Grisly Chorus|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities
15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+9|Ghost Transformation|+1 level of Bard/Dread Necromancer Abilities[/table]
HD: d6
Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points: 4+int modifier

Dread Necromancer Abilities: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level and spells known as if you had also gained a level in the Dread Necromancer Class, as well as the power and uses/day of the negative energy burst and charnel touch class features. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Bard Abilities: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level and spells known as if you had also gained a level in the Bard Class, as well as bardic music uses/day, and the power of inspire courage. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.


Harrowing Song (su): When using any form of bardic music, the Dread Bard may choose to have the bonuses that would normally be applied to his allies be applied as penalties to his enemies instead, if applicable. For example, Inspire Courage would give a -1 penalty on saving throws vs. charm and fear effects, as well as a -1 penalty to attack & damage rolls. Will save vs. DC= (Dread Bard's perform check-5) negates.

Incorporeality: When this ability is gained, the Dread Bard becomes ghostly and ethereal, and attacks against him take a 10% miss chance. The second increases it to 20%, and the third increases it to 30%.

Entropic Music (su): When using his Harrowing Song ability, the Dread Bard may expend an extra use of bardic music, as well as a use of his Negative Energy Burst ability: this causes all enemies who fail their save vs. the Harrowing song to take damage equal to that caused by the negative energy burst.

Advanced Learning: Each time this ability is gained, the Dread Bard may add any necromancy spell to his Dread Necromancer spell list, or add any enchantment or illusion spell to his bard spells known.

Ghost Abilities: Upon gaining this class feature, the Dread Bard gains the ability to cast mage hand at will as a spell like ability, and a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot checks.

Dem Bones: Any undead created by the Dread Bard are made with ranks in any reasonable perform skill (no singing skeletons) equal to 1/2 the undead's HD, as well as a charisma score equal to 1/2 the Dread Bard's CL for the spell that created it (creatures such as ghouls with high charisma scores may add their charisma bonus to this number, or use their normal charisma score- whichever's higher). The undead is also created with an instrument constructed out of body parts for the perform skill chosen.
When using his Harrowing Song ability, the undead may use aid another to add to the Dread Bard's perform check, though no two of the same type of perform skill may aid at once.

Backup Singer: When using his Harrowing Song ability, so long as enough undead are performing whose net perform checks=the Dread Bard's perform check (not including any aid another attempts) the Drad Bard is still considered performing: thus, he is free to make other actions.

Dem Bones (greater): For aid another checks by the undead, if they manage a check of 15 or higher the aid another grants a +3 bonus, and if they manage a 20 or higher the aid another check adds a +4 bonus.

Hark, My Skeletal Lovelies: Upon gaining this ability, the Dread Bard is able to effect intelligent undead with mind effecting spells and abilities, and any spell that would normally only effect humanoids effects undead as well.

Grisly Chorus: When creating a sentient undead, the undead created is considered to have bardic music abilities of a bard of level equal to its charisma bonus.

Ghost Transformation: Upon reaching level 15 in the Dread Bard class, the Dread Bard goes to sleep, never to wake up in the corporeal world- instead, he dies, and gains the ghost template.

[Haberdashery]

I must say, I love this idea very much. And the picture from Corpse Bride really fits the image. One thing though I noticed that I think might be iffy is the ghost transformation at the end. While I think it's flavorful, the ghost template to me seems a bit odd to add to a PC, especially what with the Rejuvenation ability all ghosts receive. And I believe ghosts are anchored to a certain place? I am not entirely sure on that though. Perhaps you should add some sort of extra ruling about adding the template upon gaining that class feature?

[Gorgondantess]

I must say, I love this idea very much. And the picture from Corpse Bride really fits the image. One thing though I noticed that I think might be iffy is the ghost transformation at the end. While I think it's flavorful, the ghost template to me seems a bit odd to add to a PC, especially what with the Rejuvenation ability all ghosts receive. And I believe ghosts are anchored to a certain place? I am not entirely sure on that though. Perhaps you should add some sort of extra ruling about adding the template upon gaining that class feature?

Well, the ghost template has a level adjustment, meaning it's intended to be used for PCs. I suppose I could waive the Rejuvination and anchoring thing.

[Merk]

This is hilarious and I love it. 3 comments:

1. Knowledge (Any) 8 ranks seems a bit arbitrary and not related thematically to the PrC.

2. It seems like its trying too hard to fit into two buckets at once -- the "NecroBard" and the "Undead Transformation". Maybe you could just apply an undead template or race (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128511) to the NPC if you want it to have that flavor without wasting class levels on features like DR, Fortification, and Ghost Transformation.

3. I've never seen a 15 level PrC.

[Gorgondantess]

This is hilarious and I love it.
Thank you. That is what I was going for.:smallbiggrin:


1. Knowledge (Any) 8 ranks seems a bit arbitrary and not related thematically to the PrC.
I know. I'm wondering what to put there.


2. It seems like its trying too hard to fit into two buckets at once -- the "NecroBard" and the "Undead Transformation". Maybe you could just apply an undead template or race (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128511) to the NPC if you want it to have that flavor without wasting class levels on features like DR, Fortification, and Ghost Transformation.
Hm. I won't use homebrew, and I wanted to do something like the lich transformation without... actually being a lich. A ghost seemed to fit the bardic thing better.
And I really just wanted it to have no dead levels... which was hard. Any ideas to fill in there?


3. I've never seen a 15 level PrC.
Many homebrew dual progressions are 15 level PrCs, so as not to have those last 5 levels you have no idea what to do with.:smalltongue:

[DragoonWraith]

I'm also almost certain I've seen a 12-level PrC in a Wizard-published book...

[Innis Cabal]

I'm also almost certain I've seen a 12-level PrC in a Wizard-published book...

True Necromancer was 12 levels. The Necrocarnum (or how ever its spelled) is also more then 10 levels.

[Gorgondantess]

True Necromancer was 12 levels. The Necrocarnum (or how ever its spelled) is also more then 10 levels.

Well, there ya go! I just added a few extra to avoid aimlessness in the last few levels.:smallbiggrin:

[Krazddndfreek]

Being incorporeal somehow defeats the purpose of being a bard in the first place for me. I mean, most of the bard's schtick was that he was the 'face' and that he was great at a party. In addition to being a jack-of-all trades. If you hear a singing ghost, you're going to run the hell away, no matter how drunk you are. :smalltongue:

EDIT: disregard the above, I have not yet finished even reading the class. :smalltongue:

[DragoonWraith]

I really like the idea. I'm only concerned that you're keeping most of the Bard features, at least a fair number of the DN features (not familiar with them enough to know what portion of their features that actually is), plus you're getting a lot of other features. I don't really think this is a bad thing; more theurges should do things like that, but the problem is that you are breaking the trends of other dual-progression classes.

For example, the Fochlucan Lyricist advances Bardic and Druidic spellcasting, while simultaneously advancing just Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge, and those plus the ability to ignore the Druidic prohibition on metal are its only features.

[Gorgondantess]

I really like the idea. I'm only concerned that you're keeping most of the Bard features, at least a fair number of the DN features (not familiar with them enough to know what portion of their features that actually is), plus you're getting a lot of other features. I don't really think this is a bad thing; more theurges should do things like that, but the problem is that you are breaking the trends of other dual-progression classes.

For example, the Fochlucan Lyricist advances Bardic and Druidic spellcasting, while simultaneously advancing just Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge, and those plus the ability to ignore the Druidic prohibition on metal are its only features.

I think the fact that they are both subpar spellcasting classes helps balance it, and really, I didn't want any dead levels. What would you suggest?

[Krazddndfreek]

Well, actually the fact that they get abilities from both classes every level covers you from having any dead levels. I wouldn't know what to change, but actually dread necro is pretty powerful by itself, even without the 'lichlike' benefits. I mean, look at 'The Symbol' in Cityscape. He has something like 380 undead cohorts.:smalleek:

[Eldan]

No Weapon Focus: Shovel? :smalltongue:

Okay, okay, I'll really read it now.

PS:
Harrowing Song: I'd specify that this only works with inspire courage. Otherwise, you'd have rather strange effects if it was applied to something like Dragonfire Inspiration (-5d6 fire damage on enemy attacks?) or Heroics (enemies lose 2d10 hit dice?).

Stacking Damage Reduction: Slightly wonky... how do you stack, let's say DR 5/slashing with this? Normally, it just kinda overlaps, I'd leave it like that, unless it's the same DR.

Advanced Learning: Does "any necromancy" mean any spell from the necromancy school or any spell on the dread necromancer's list? Probably the first one, just asking, though.

Dem Bones: I'd limit the total of perform bonus the undead can give you, even if they play different styles of music. Otherwise, you could just get 20 different instruments on them and gain a truly monstrous perform check. Not good for abilities which have the skill result as a DC, like the bard's suggestion.
Perhaps limit the number of undead which can help to 3-5, depending on level? More of a jazz band than a marching band with military chorus.

The Ghost Template: That's a major power boost right there. What I'd do would be to split up a select few of the Ghost's abilities (incorporeality, the different specials) and split them up over several levels, gaining undeadness as a capstone, similar to other transforming PrCs like the Half-Dragon one, the name of which has escaped me right now.

PPS:
Also, I think there was a feat somewhere that allowed you to use your bardic music on the undead. Might make a nice prerequisite.

[Mulletmanalive]

An instant partial balance is changing the bard prerequisite from 'Level 1 magic' to "Inspire Competence" as that drives it up to level 3.

If you're applying the Ghost template at the end, it doesn't make sense to retain the lich transformation theme from the Dread Necromancer. Instead, it would make more sense to give them assending 5% miss chances in place of those abilities [less reliable, more flavourful]. A simple fix for previously acquired abilities would be to state that such DR/bludgeoning and magic is converted to 5% miss chances [stacked obviously].

If you're adding this many abilities, it would also be fair to cut one level of each class at different places in the progression; this would go some way to making the Ghost final template [which is actively harder to get rid of than the Lich one because of the less obvious vulnerability] seem less overpowered. Of course, considering the base class turns one into a lich...

Finally, adding Bard spells to the Dread Necromancer list is fundamentally unwise. Being able to kick out spells like Allegro, Inspiration Surge or Warcry almost at will would break your game so hard that you'll not need me to tell you 'i told you so'

[DragoonWraith]

An instant partial balance is changing the bard prerequisite from 'Level 1 magic' to "Inspire Competence" as that drives it up to level 3.
The problem with that is that playing as a multiclass spellcaster before taking a theurgic PrC sucks and should try to be limited as much as possible. Better to lose the levels at some point later (staggered somewhat), then to be forced to play as a 3/3 or something.

[Gorgondantess]

Harrowing Song: I'd specify that this only works with inspire courage. Otherwise, you'd have rather strange effects if it was applied to something like Dragonfire Inspiration (-5d6 fire damage on enemy attacks?) or Heroics (enemies lose 2d10 hit dice?).[/spoiler]
That would be odd. I'll change it to say it only works if applicable- thos're kinda impossible.:smallredface:

[QUOTE]Stacking Damage Reduction: Slightly wonky... how do you stack, let's say DR 5/slashing with this? Normally, it just kinda overlaps, I'd leave it like that, unless it's the same DR.
No, it only stacks with the DR previously gained by the class. Taken right from the eldritch theurge.


Advanced Learning: Does "any necromancy" mean any spell from the necromancy school or any spell on the dread necromancer's list? Probably the first one, just asking, though.
Necromancy school.


Dem Bones: I'd limit the total of perform bonus the undead can give you, even if they play different styles of music. Otherwise, you could just get 20 different instruments on them and gain a truly monstrous perform check. Not good for abilities which have the skill result as a DC, like the bard's suggestion.
Perhaps limit the number of undead which can help to 3-5, depending on level? More of a jazz band than a marching band with military chorus.
Yeah, but all those undead would have a hell of a time making the aid another checks, with about 1 rank in perform each and probably less than 10 charisma.


The Ghost Template: That's a major power boost right there. What I'd do would be to split up a select few of the Ghost's abilities (incorporeality, the different specials) and split them up over several levels, gaining undeadness as a capstone, similar to other transforming PrCs like the Half-Dragon one, the name of which has escaped me right now.
I wanted something like the lich transformation... without the lich transformation.:smalltongue:



Also, I think there was a feat somewhere that allowed you to use your bardic music on the undead. Might make a nice prerequisite.

Probably LM. I'll look it up.


An instant partial balance is changing the bard prerequisite from 'Level 1 magic' to "Inspire Competence" as that drives it up to level 3.

If I did that, it would be able to be entered at bard3/DN3 rather than bard2/DN3, and I'd make it a 14 level class.


If you're applying the Ghost template at the end, it doesn't make sense to retain the lich transformation theme from the Dread Necromancer. Instead, it would make more sense to give them assending 5% miss chances in place of those abilities [less reliable, more flavourful]. A simple fix for previously acquired abilities would be to state that such DR/bludgeoning and magic is converted to 5% miss chances [stacked obviously].
Good call! I'll do that, thank you.


Finally, adding Bard spells to the Dread Necromancer list is fundamentally unwise. Being able to kick out spells like Allegro, Inspiration Surge or Warcry almost at will would break your game so hard that you'll not need me to tell you 'i told you so'
Well, the thing is, you'll be adding those spells to your list at about the same time you'd normally be able to get them on the bard list: I really don't see the problem with it. It's like a mystic theurge being able to add wizard spells to his cleric spell list.

[DragoonWraith]

Bards only know a limited number of the spells on their list. Dread Necromancers automatically know every spell on their list.

[Mulletmanalive]

my point with the bard spells is that they are usually REALLY good buffs, often at lower levels than other casters get the same quality though this is balanced by the fact that they're only available in limited number [the bard is about the only class with more spells known than slots].

Dread Necromancers have loads of spell slots and the ability to pump out the excellent 3rd level Allegro normally available once/day at 7th level 6+ times per day is going to be a complete pain in the ass because it can happily hike PC equivalent level by +2ish on its own

Then factor in the fact that you'll actually be able to get the already level lowered Bard spells earlier with the Dread Necromancer progression...

You'll have a 14th level character running around casting Protege 6 odd times a day...

I'm actually trying to warn you, my favourite class is Bard so i play them a lot. They completely scramble CR calculations once they get to the good stuff, which you'll be able to happily insert from the moment you gain that feature.

[Gorgondantess]

my point with the bard spells is that they are usually REALLY good buffs, often at lower levels than other casters get the same quality though this is balanced by the fact that they're only available in limited number [the bard is about the only class with more spells known than slots].

Dread Necromancers have loads of spell slots and the ability to pump out the excellent 3rd level Allegro normally available once/day at 7th level 6+ times per day is going to be a complete pain in the ass because it can happily hike PC equivalent level by +2ish on its own

Then factor in the fact that you'll actually be able to get the already level lowered Bard spells earlier with the Dread Necromancer progression...

You'll have a 14th level character running around casting Protege 6 odd times a day...

I'm actually trying to warn you, my favourite class is Bard so i play them a lot. They completely scramble CR calculations once they get to the good stuff, which you'll be able to happily insert from the moment you gain that feature.

OOoo...kay...
Honestly, I've never even heard of those spells before. But if you think they would be such a huge problem, what would you suggest for an advanced learning?
I'm thinking maybe keeping the normal advanced learning for the DN (add a necromancy spell) then also allow instead to add any enchantment or illusion spell to the bard's spells known, ala beguiler. Would that work for you?:smallsmile:

[deuxhero]

I forget, was DN casting wis or cha based?

[Gorgondantess]

Okay, I made those changes, and cleaned up a few things... would it be considered balanced, as is? How's the more unique abilities?


I forget, was DN casting wis or cha based?

Charisma.

[Debihuman]

If this class is following the Bard's progression for BAB, then level 9 BAB should be +6/+1 not +6/+2.

I do not like giving away light fortification 25% at level 7 as a class ability since Dread Necromancer already has this at level 10. Also, it is medium fortification that is 50%. Medium fortification is a bit too expensive a benefit to just hand out. I recommend giving out light fortification 25 at level 13 and finding something more balanced for level 7. How about Improved Toughness as a bonus feat or something along those lines if you want to make it tougher.

Debby

[Gorgondantess]

If this class is following the Bard's progression for BAB, then level 9 BAB should be +6/+1 not +6/+2.

I do not like giving away light fortification 25% at level 7 as a class ability since Dread Necromancer already has this at level 10. Also, it is medium fortification that is 50%. Medium fortification is a bit too expensive a benefit to just hand out. I recommend giving out light fortification 25 at level 13 and finding something more balanced for level 7. How about Improved Toughness as a bonus feat or something along those lines if you want to make it tougher.

Debby
I did put +6/+1.:smalltongue:
As for the fortification, I suppose I could do with that what I did with the DR: maybe ghost skill bonuses.

[Mulletmanalive]

My actual thoughts on Bard would be to have them be allowed to convert one bard spell with the Mind Affecting mark s that it could be used on undead.

I did mention that i'm a bard player...

Oh, with this many class features, you only really need to enhance the Inspire Confidence ability of the basic bard, otherwise you're kinda doubling up on bard powers for no real detriment...

[Gorgondantess]

My actual thoughts on Bard would be to have them be allowed to convert one bard spell with the Mind Affecting mark s that it could be used on undead.

I did mention that i'm a bard player...

Oh, with this many class features, you only really need to enhance the Inspire Confidence ability of the basic bard, otherwise you're kinda doubling up on bard powers for no real detriment...

You mean inspire courage?
Hm. Yeah, maybe... I suppose I should do that...
For the ME effects, well, it's a good idea, but kindof unnecessary. DN gets command undead and control undead and all that fun: seems all you really need.

[Mulletmanalive]

yeah, but how funny would it be to have a coupld of charmed liches at your beckon call?

I mean seriously?

[Gorgondantess]

yeah, but how funny would it be to have a coupld of charmed liches at your beckon call?

I mean seriously?

Heeh. Still, mechanically, command/control undead works just as well, if not better. I'd rather not throw that in there just because. Still, good idea.

[Mulletmanalive]

Heeh. Still, mechanically, command/control undead works just as well, if not better. I'd rather not throw that in there just because. Still, good idea.

i guess, though they're both bound by HD caps.

How about Fear based spells, regardless of source then?

[Gorgondantess]

I think the dread necromancer side covers plenty of those kinds of effects for undead: it might be an ability to replace the fortification, as debi suggested, but I doubt it.:smallredface:

[Mulletmanalive]

i meant for the additional bard options.

[Gorgondantess]

i meant for the additional bard options.

...You know what? Okay. That works. Edited to include this, and ghostly abilities as replacement for the fortification.