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oxinabox
2009-10-26, 02:19 AM
What needs to be done to convert the wilder to pathfinder?
Up the HD by one?

any suggestions?

oxinabox
2009-10-26, 03:26 AM
wilder works nicely in my setting, actually has the best physically skill set of al psionic characters.
I'm surprised that neither psywarrior, or soulknife has balace as a class skill.

Maybe I should give it a few more PP?

My setting has no magic, stronger than warlock, or Bard...
trying to ballance to that

Samb
2009-10-26, 04:55 AM
Wilder for all intents and purposes is fine the way it is. You could give it more powers 1/level and give it martial weapons but there really is nothing wrong with them. More PP is pointless since wild surge provides free PP when used.

oxinabox
2009-10-26, 10:11 AM
Wilder for all intents and purposes is fine the way it is. You could give it more powers 1/level and give it martial weapons but there really is nothing wrong with them. More PP is pointless since wild surge provides free PP when used.

Cool, didn't end up using it.

Now the player ended up playing a binder.
It looked high powered (in my comparitively no magic world), but then you realise that each vistage it has bound dertermines All it'c class features.

Binder is definatly fine the way it is.
d8 HD, not somethig you want to improve, it's above average for most of it's party rolls.

Riffington
2009-10-26, 12:05 PM
d8 hd because it has 3/4 BAB.

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-10-26, 12:16 PM
Yeah. The Beta rules specifically called out an attempt to link BAB and HD. Full BAB -> d10 (with a few d12 exceptions); 3/4 BAB -> d8; 1/2 BAB -> d6. Hence the bump in Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Rogue, and Ranger HD.

Pathfinder is pretty backwards-compatible. You shouldn't have much problem using non-core classes mostly as-is. Just update the Class Skills and HD. Then just tweak things that seem to be out of line with the general design philosophy.

That said, I'm looking forward to an eventual Pathfinder treatment of psionics.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-10-26, 12:20 PM
d8 hd because it has 3/4 BAB.

Perfect-o, if we do not do the other idea below.


Wilder for all intents and purposes is fine the way it is. You could give it more powers 1/level and give it martial weapons but there really is nothing wrong with them. More PP is pointless since wild surge provides free PP when used.

I would abstain from giving it more PP's because that would overpower it.

My opinion would be to give it 4 skill points instead of 2. Why? They can be used to fill more roles, such as the "know it all" Knowledge character, and have more aptitude in social combat (as CHA is their primary attrib).

Martial Weapons would not really help this class very much. The best weapon they have are their powers. I would instead reduce the BAB to a 1/2 and give them the Psion powers known progression, while keeping all of the other class abilities.

AstralFire
2009-10-26, 12:26 PM
More PP would not overpower it. Any changes to Wilder largely need to be along the basis of fixing the fact that Wild Surge gets worse the longer that you don't PrC out of the class.

Wilders are supposed to be gishy and if you remove Psychic Enervation and place another mechanic in to prevent the abuse of wild surge outside of battle (which is the only reason the enervation mechanic exists), they actually function decently as such. Upping their HD and keeping the BAB while expanding their martial weapons would solidify that.

Zeuy
2009-10-26, 12:36 PM
Dreamscarred Press is currently working on updating psionics to pathfinder (since Paizo has already said they're just going to convert it to a vancian system). They already have an alpha version of the wilder up for commenting, and you could easily go look at it for some ideas.

AstralFire
2009-10-26, 12:37 PM
Dreamscarred Press is currently working on updating psionics to pathfinder (since Paizo has already said they're just going to convert it to a vancian system). They already have an alpha version of the wilder up for commenting, and you could easily go look at it for some ideas.

They're going to convert psionics to Vanci-

Okay, I'm out of this topic. Good grief.

Edea
2009-10-26, 12:41 PM
Dreamscarred Press is currently working on updating psionics to pathfinder (since Paizo has already said they're just going to convert it to a vancian system). They already have an alpha version of the wilder up for commenting, and you could easily go look at it for some ideas.

WHAT? Oh my god, this is horrifying :smalleek:.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-10-26, 12:47 PM
Dreamscarred Press is currently working on updating psionics to pathfinder ... They already have an alpha version of the wilder up for commenting, and you could easily go look at it for some ideas.

I just dl'ed the new class, and wow. It is very impressive. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:


(since Paizo has already said they're just going to convert it to a vancian system).


WHAT? Oh my god, this is horrifying :smalleek:.

I agree, horrific nerfing will happen. :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

Starbuck_II
2009-10-26, 01:00 PM
More PP would not overpower it. Any changes to Wilder largely need to be along the basis of fixing the fact that Wild Surge gets worse the longer that you don't PrC out of the class.

Wilders are supposed to be gishy and if you remove Psychic Enervation and place another mechanic in to prevent the abuse of wild surge outside of battle (which is the only reason the enervation mechanic exists), they actually function decently as such. Upping their HD and keeping the BAB while expanding their martial weapons would solidify that.

How about X/encounter limitation?
So while they can use it outside of battle they need a 10 minute break to do it again. Of course as they progress they can do it longer before a break.

Start with 1/encounter at 1st. Increase every 4 levels by 1. So you end with 6/encounter at level 20.

This can be simply: they can't focus their emotional power so close together till they get time to clear their heads. As they get stronger they are better at focusing them.

Vancian Wilder:
Isn't that a sorceror who can Wild Surge (which I just now grants caster level bonus)?

AstralFire
2009-10-26, 01:03 PM
I would never make it more than 2 or 3/encounter, as an important aspect of the Wilder is also its ability to Nova really well.

For the sake of flavor, however, I do rather like my fix:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90718

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-10-26, 01:11 PM
Dreamscarred Press is currently working on updating psionics to pathfinder (since Paizo has already said they're just going to convert it to a vancian system).
Uh, citation, please?

DeathQuaker
2009-10-26, 02:43 PM
Uh, citation, please?

I don't know where Zeuy got it, but I just searched Paizo's board and couldn't find anything. Certainly that could be that my search-fu is weak today. But all I found was a hearsay report that Paizo wasn't currently planning on any psionics rules anytime soon, e.g., nothing planned for 2010-11. Which is part of why Dreamscarred Press is working on their version.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/products/licensees/dreamscarredPressOpenPlaytestingForPsionicsForPath finderRPG&page=1#16


As regards the original topic, as mentioned just making sure that the HD fits the BAB progression scheme is probably all you need to do.

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-10-26, 06:20 PM
I don't know where Zeuy got it, but I just searched Paizo's board and couldn't find anything. Certainly that could be that my search-fu is weak today.
Same here.

So I'm not going to panic… yet.

Samb
2009-10-26, 10:37 PM
More PP would not overpower it. Any changes to Wilder largely need to be along the basis of fixing the fact that Wild Surge gets worse the longer that you don't PrC out of the class.

Wilders are supposed to be gishy and if you remove Psychic Enervation and place another mechanic in to prevent the abuse of wild surge outside of battle (which is the only reason the enervation mechanic exists), they actually function decently as such. Upping their HD and keeping the BAB while expanding their martial weapons would solidify that.
Wilders need more powers. A whooping 15 powers (assuming you use the educated variant) in 20 levels is terrible. Psychic enervation does what you said but it is also just a balancing factor in combat. Higher ML at a a small risk, but still better than overchannel which always hurts you (only question is by how much).

I'm not sure if full BAB fits the flavor, or even helps wilder that much. I mean look at psywar, they have 3/4 BAB and no one in there right minds think any less of them. Having martial weapons and light armor I think would be very welcome, but largely unneeded since most will dip into psywar for the EK.

AstralFire
2009-10-26, 10:41 PM
Well, if I had the Soulknife, Wilder and Psywarrior to do all over again, I would stat them up as a single Tome of Battle/Psionics class that has a limited pool of power points which refreshes every time a maneuver from the soulknife hits a target (draining psychic power from their mind), with the ability to 'surge' for a boost to IL/ML at will. They'd essentially get quicken power as a basic ability.

Samb
2009-10-26, 10:50 PM
Well, if I had the Soulknife, Wilder and Psywarrior to do all over again, I would stat them up as a single Tome of Battle/Psionics class that has a limited pool of power points which refreshes every time a maneuver from the soulknife hits a target (draining psychic power from their mind), with the ability to 'surge' for a boost to IL/ML at will. They'd essentially get quicken power as a basic ability.

Soulknife needs a fix badly.
Psywar are powerful...... very powerful, bordering on broken. They don't need a fix.
Wilders....... I personally feel they are fine other than needing more powers.

There is the feat "psychic renewal" which lets you regain a manuvuer by expending your psionic focus. Using it right now with my elocater. Spring attack and ToB go so well together.

AstralFire
2009-10-26, 10:54 PM
Said overhaul would not be from the standpoint of making all three of them viable, so much as making an interesting class that stands full separate from the psion in terms of mechanic; the Wilder mostly feels like a neutered psion in practice, and the PsyWarrior again feels like a psion mod, while the Soulknife just kind of flops around uselessly with a cool concept.

Samb
2009-10-26, 11:02 PM
Wilders are "dark-side" users. They increased powers using emotions to power them. I think its pretty cool. Like a psionic barbarian.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-26, 11:28 PM
Said overhaul would not be from the standpoint of making all three of them viable, so much as making an interesting class that stands full separate from the psion in terms of mechanic; the Wilder mostly feels like a neutered psion in practice, and the PsyWarrior again feels like a psion mod, while the Soulknife just kind of flops around uselessly with a cool concept.I think perhaps we should leave the psychic warrior mostly alone. It could use a few more power points per level, but beyond that it's A-OK. However, combining the wilder and soulknife, streamlining them, and fixing a few things here and there certainly wouldn't be amiss.

Hell, combine it with ToB, and I'd love to see what you come up with.

Teron
2009-10-27, 01:16 AM
What's the point of combining two classes with perfectly solid, distinct concepts, when it would hardly be more work to overhaul the soulknife and tweak the wilder to work independantly? If you're really keen on the combination, you could also create some feats or a PrC to support multiclassing between them without restricting possible characters.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-27, 01:48 AM
What's the point of combining two classes with perfectly solid, distinct concepts, when it would hardly be more work to overhaul the soulknife and tweak the wilder to work independantly? If you're really keen on the combination, you could also create some feats or a PrC to support multiclassing between them without restricting possible characters.

Well, given that psychic warrior is a solid high tier-3, and that combining soulknife and psychic warrior at the cost of a feat is generally not considered much more powerful than psywar already is, I'd say it'd take a lot of tweaking to make soulknife worth it in any context, really.

And I've always seen wilders as wildly sub-par.

Heck, Ancestral Weapon/Item Familiar is better than the entirety of the soulknife, and it's a single feat.

Samb
2009-10-27, 04:47 AM
Ummm from the disscussion on BG wilders are considered a low tier 2. Thanks to bend reality, research and psyreformation and level 9 powers making them strictly more versatile than psywar.

Psywar is fun and prolly the best melee in the game, but not having level 7-9 powers does prevent it from being of a higher tier, there is no way around this either. A psywar can't use EK, research or psyreform to get 7-8 powers much less level 9 powers.

And not wilders aren't underwhelming, they do things a psion can do but better. The price they pay is less powers overall. Psywar has more feats which is nice but they have to spend 7-8 of them on psionic talent...... which to me is a wash.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-27, 12:29 PM
Ummm from the disscussion on BG wilders are considered a low tier 2. Thanks to bend reality, research and psyreformation and level 9 powers making them strictly more versatile than psywar.They're like Sorcerers compared to Wizards. Yes, they're powerful, yes, they have awesomely OP tricks, but when you get down to it, there's someone in the corner singing "Anything you can do".

AstralFire
2009-10-27, 12:35 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129691

Said discussed fix for the Soulknife, I ended up dropping the Wilder part as Brutal Surge evolved.

Dixieboy
2009-10-27, 01:15 PM
[QUOTE=Zeuy;7194272] (since Paizo has already said they're just going to convert it to a vancian system). QUOTE]

How the hell would that work anyway?

Shisumo
2009-10-27, 05:59 PM
James Jacobs - who isn't Paizo's rules guy, for the record - has said in several different threads that he thinks the PP system integrates poorly with the traditional Vancian D&D magic setup, and also encourages nova-style play. As a result, he thinks it would be easiest to do mechanics via some kind of Vancian framework.

Note that this it not the same as saying "Paizo's gonna do Vancian psionics." (Among other things, Jacobs has also said that if it were up to him, there wouldn't be dwarves in Golarion.)

It is, however, moot, since as far as we know, there will be no psionics from Paizo of any kind until at least 2011.