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Zaydos
2009-10-26, 09:10 AM
A friend of mine is thinking about restarting my last campaign. My ex-girlfriend is making a new character for it instead of playing her old one and asked me for help (she always does, she has a good enough grasp to play but doesn't feel like looking through the books to make a character and we use... most of them except Forgotten Realms). She wants to be a druid, and next chance I get I intend to find out what kind of druid she wants but I was wondering if I could ask for some advice on a moderately optimized druid, casting heavy druid, and on a master of many forms (3 characters). I doubt she'd want the last one since she seemed to like casting and the animal companion (we played from 1st to 9th and she was a druid-wizard that entered Arcane Hierophant) but I had been toying with the idea for my PC and just wanted to see a build or two for one. They should be 9th level and thanks in advance.

Flayerman
2009-10-26, 09:11 AM
Druid 20 with Natural Spell.

Really.

Fishy
2009-10-26, 09:12 AM
Take the Natural Spell feat.

Really, any other decision you can make is eclipsed by the power of druid casting + animal companion + Wild shape. So long as you have a decent amount of Wisdom, it isn't possible to make a druid that can't do something.

Flayerman
2009-10-26, 09:13 AM
If you really want to be mean, add a Monk's Belt and start flurrying as a bear or whatever you shape into.

Mongoose87
2009-10-26, 09:16 AM
The other option is Planar Shepherd, from Faiths of Eberron, IIRC. It's like Druid 20, but with extra goodies.

Eldariel
2009-10-26, 09:23 AM
What type of an animal companion would she want? There are a few great options on level 9 (well, level 7 really; Brown Bear, Dire Eagle, Cave Ankylosaur and some level 4s in Dire Bat & Fleshraker Dinosaur and even a decent level 1 option in Riding Dog are all fine).

Either way, Bears (Brown & Polar), Pouncing Dinosaurs (particularly the Fleshraker), Tiger/Saber-Tooth, Rhinoceros and such are nice Wildshape forms on that level, as are obviously large flyers (Dire Eagle, Dire Bat, Dire Vulture, Desmodu Hunting Bat) and such.


The real question is whether you focus on summoning or not; it's possible to get some great summoning prowess for a Druid but that's very feat-intensive. You'll probably want Extend Spell anyways with Quicken Spell on 12, but whether to go for stuff like Ashbound, Rashemi Elemental Summoning, Augment Summoning and so on depends.

Oh, and Wilding Clasps are good for items anyways. Monk's Belt or Wild Armor, Wis enhancer, Con enhancer, Str+Dex enhancer (if melee), Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Beads of Karma, Circlet of Rapid Casting, the works.

Need to know more before can suggest anything real. Books I used in these suggestions, btw:
MM2 & 3 (Desmodu Hunting Bat, Fleshraker Dinosaur)
Frostburn (Saber-Tooth Tiger)
Sandstorm (Dire Vulture)
Races of Stone (Dire Eagle)
Miniatures Handbook (Cave Ankylosaur)
Eberron Campaign Settings (Ashbound)
Unapproachable East (Rashemi Elemental Summoning)
Magic Item Compendium (Wilding Clasps, Circlet of Rapid Casting)

Fishy
2009-10-26, 09:27 AM
... I was wondering if I could ask for some advice on a moderately optimized druid...


The other option is Planar Shepherd, from Faiths of Eberron, IIRC. It's like Druid 20, but with extra goodies.

These are not the same thing.

Mongoose87
2009-10-26, 09:39 AM
These are not the same thing.

Well...uhh... she could dump her CON! Then it would be moderately optimized!

Eldariel
2009-10-26, 09:44 AM
Well...uhh... she could dump her CON! Then it would be moderately optimized!

She could dump her Wis and STILL be moderately - heavily optimized... Planar Shepherd, particularly the Planar Bubble (aka. Time Stop++) and the Outsider Wildshape (aka. 1 hour/level Shapechange++++ [WITH SPELL-****ING-LIKES]) is Just That Damn Good™.

Zaydos
2009-10-26, 11:54 AM
Thanks. I think I'll make a melee build and a summoner build for her and one that just focuses on using spells (I get a decent feeling she'll want to blast things occasionally). She liked her wolf companion last time and I realized that there is a huge gap in the books used (no Forgotten Realms), and the DM doesn't have Eberron books, but he's my roommate and I do and we've used them before (no Faiths of Eberron though).

Zaydos
2009-10-26, 05:48 PM
Oh yes could a druid 9 with a dire bat (taken at random from PHB) animal companion take the natural bond feat to effectively negate the -3 levels to its abilities for being a dire bat? Is there an official ruling or is it just "how the DM interprets it?" I was never sure how to interpret it so I actually want to know for next time a player in my game plays a druid, but since I'm working on a druid build right now I figured I'd ask (regardless I'll ask the DM about it because it is something that I found a questionable ruling and that's just what you do).

Edit: I asked, he said he'd allow it, but I still kind of want to know the RAW/RAI for next time I DM with a druid.

Aldizog
2009-10-26, 05:59 PM
Summoning pretty much requires Rapid Spell IME. I believe this also means you are prepping your Rapid SNAs, not casting them spontaneously.

Fishy
2009-10-26, 08:05 PM
Oh yes could a druid 9 with a dire bat (taken at random from PHB) animal companion take the natural bond feat to effectively negate the -3 levels to its abilities for being a dire bat? Is there an official ruling or is it just "how the DM interprets it?" I was never sure how to interpret it so I actually want to know for next time a player in my game plays a druid, but since I'm working on a druid build right now I figured I'd ask (regardless I'll ask the DM about it because it is something that I found a questionable ruling and that's just what you do).

Edit: I asked, he said he'd allow it, but I still kind of want to know the RAW/RAI for next time I DM with a druid.
NATURAL BOND DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!

This bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level.

A 4HD Dire Bat is a companion that, normally, only a level 7 Druid can use. If you use Natural Bond to get one at level 4, you're carrying around a companion that, normally, only a level 7 Druid can use, at level 4. I understand that there's some 'wiggle room' in the text, but one alternative is a feat that's as harmless and useful as Practiced Spellcaster, and the other is a feat that makes one player 4 CR higher than the rest of the party. Go back to your DM, apologize, and retrain the feat to Track.

Actually, that's Fishy's Official Druid Optimization Advice (tm). Take Track. The DM's life is much easier if someone in the party has it, and you're a druid so you don't care.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-26, 10:40 PM
NATURAL BOND DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!!

A 4HD Dire Bat is a companion that, normally, only a level 7 Druid can use. If you use Natural Bond to get one at level 4, you're carrying around a companion that, normally, only a level 7 Druid can use, at level 4. I understand that there's some 'wiggle room' in the text, but one alternative is a feat that's as harmless and useful as Practiced Spellcaster, and the other is a feat that makes one player 4 CR higher than the rest of the party. Go back to your DM, apologize, and retrain the feat to Track.Yes and no. You can't get a Fleshraker at 1 or a Dire Bat at 4, but it can negate the penalties to a 4th level Druid's Fleshraker. The key is the PHB rule that bonuses and penalties are applied in the most beneficial order.

So you have a 4th level Druid with a Fleshraker. The Druids effective Druid level for the purposes of the Fleshraker is 1, but his HD is 4. So Natural Bond adds 3 to his effective Druid level, raising it to 4.

And no, it's probably not incredibly balanced, but you're a Druid anyways.

Leon
2009-10-26, 10:57 PM
She wants to be a druid, and next chance I get I intend to find out what kind of druid she wants .

This is the important bit.
Find out and let us know then we can help rather than throwing all the usual answers at you

deuxhero
2009-10-26, 11:07 PM
If you don't want to completely break the game, summoner/controler/buffer seems like a decent choice.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-26, 11:25 PM
If you don't want to completely break the game, summoner/controler/buffer seems like a decent choice.Eh, Wildshaper or AC-focused char can avoid breaking the game, as long as there are no core meleers in the party to get embarrassed. Casting is the true issue, a Druid that avoids that isn't as bad.

Zaydos
2009-10-28, 12:08 AM
She either wants a wildshape or animal companion based build and can either keep her rolls from her last character (8, 17, 16, 15, 12, 16) or roll new ones with a +2 from levels.

I was thinking as far as animal companion went: Natural Spell (just a good druid feat), Natural Bond, Companion Spellbond, Exalted Companion, and if human Extend Spell... not really sure never played a pure druid before.

Thanks for everything so far.

Gnaeus
2009-10-28, 08:31 AM
I would drop exalted companion and take Craft Wondrous Item.

1. You need 1 wilding clasp for every body slot. If you can't buy them, gotta make them.

2. You and your pet are both going to need magical gear to be effective. (well, maybe not you, because you are a druid, but your pet anyway). If your DM doesn't let items you find resize to your bear/bat/raptor/T Rex, you will again need to make them yourself.

Radiun
2009-10-28, 08:41 AM
[COLOR="White"]A 4HD Dire Bat is a companion that, normally, only a level 7 Druid can use.

Please explain this.

In the SRD at least, Dire Bats are under the Druid "4th Level or Higher (Level -3)" column.


Also, if you take a Dire Bat, remember Dire Animals have all good saves, put Leather Armour on her until her Dex makes it pointless (circa level 9), and if you use the Spell Compendium, remember to use Enrage Animal. Also makes for a pretty effective grappler.

Edit: On Grappler. The bat may not have the highest modifier, but grappling out of reach spellcasters so they both plummet to the ground in the following round simply cannot be overlooked.

Fastmover
2009-10-28, 09:43 AM
Druid/Ninja

Spells
Buffs
Extra Dodge
Shape Change
Swift Invisibility
Sudden Strike
Wisdom to Awesome
Companion
Healing

Zaydos
2009-10-28, 09:49 AM
Druid/Ninja

Spells
Buffs
Extra Dodge
Shape Change
Swift Invisibility
Sudden Strike
Wisdom to Awesome
Companion
Healing

That does sound fun. I saw someone try a ninja/shaman once but that rather failed (they did have a Wis penalizing race though and were quite badly built). Also druid is much stronger than shaman.

Vangor
2009-10-28, 09:58 AM
Glimmerskin Strongheart Halfling

Full Druid progression with Natural Bond and Companion Spellbond for first and halfling feat, Extend Spell for third feat, Extra Wild Shape for sixth feat, and Great & Small for ninth feat. Winged Mask, two of em, Beastskin Dragonhide "Chain" Shirt, and Wilding Clasp, for the low price of 34,500gp total, which is slightly below character wealth. This will allow her to transform into a Huge Rhinoceros and fly, at will, alongside her animal companion while she wears armor.

Personally, I would include Primitive Spellcaster instead of Extend Spell, merely because I prefer the Smilodon (Saber-toothed Tiger) from Frostburn for subduing casters and feel not only is the feat itself worthwhile but, considering the power of the Druid, I should demonstrate my character's familiarity with the environment I found my companion in (I swore this was a rule, but cannot find).

To note, the Winged Mask is in Magic of Faerun, thus I imagine this falls into the category of "except Forgotten Realms". This is not the most optimized, but being a sky-charging, massive, horned beast with a fanged tiger grappling opponents and dropping them is terrific.

Radiun
2009-10-28, 10:07 AM
As a final feather in the Natural Bonded Dire Bat's cap

A 9th level druid's Dire Bat with Improved Natural Weapon, Combat reflexes, and Animal Growth and Enrage Animal will be doing something along the lines of 2 bites at +16 / +11, have somewhere around 8 attacks of opportunity within its 10ft reach, and deal 3d6 + 16 damage with each of those attacks.

My math may be off though, but it's still not too shabby.

Optimystik
2009-10-28, 10:16 AM
Druid/Ninja

Spells
Buffs
Extra Dodge
Shape Change
Swift Invisibility
Sudden Strike
Wisdom to Awesome
Companion
Healing

If you want to go the Nature's Assassin route, I'd suggest Ranger/Ninja. The fluff fits better and you get better BAB.

Aldizog
2009-10-28, 11:10 AM
Summoner: Rapid Spell, SF (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Natural Spell, Quicken Spell. If you don't take Rapid Spell, you'll usually be interrupted when trying to summon -- "1 round" casting time is much worse than "full-round action". If you do take Rapid Spell, the things you summon are weaker, so you need Augment Summoning to make up for it. Quicken becomes more useful pretty quickly (Quickened Gust of Wind is a great counter to Solid Fog and Cloudkill, and Quickened CLW can be a lifesaver).

Beastmaster-type: Companion Spellbond, Exalted Companion, Natural Spell, Quicken Spell, and Craft Wondrous Item. I'm leaving out Natural Bond because applying it to single-classed druids is a questionable interpretation (might be RAW, not sure if it's RAI) and druids don't need another power boost. If the player isn't in love with wildshaping, you can drop Natural Spell and Craft Wondrous for Font of Life and Quick Recovery. As awesome as wildshaping is, it also requires a fair bit of paperwork that can detract from the fun if the player isn't really on top of it (the same is true of summoning, but to a lesser degree). Fun-vs-power really needs to be considered here.

Druids' casting is negated by low-level spells: Protection from Good and Silence. The first can block even elemental monoliths, although arrowhawks can be pretty useful there. For the second, you don't always have enough room to move out of the area, so a Rod of Silent Spell or the Sudden Silent feat would be nice to have. Enervation is crippling to all casters, so Death Ward is very nice to have up as often as possible, but Font of Life or Lasting Life will also work.