PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Ravenloft & optimized turning



Thurbane
2009-10-26, 07:12 PM
Hi all,

I’m going to be running EtCR soon, and I have a concern. One of the players will be taking a (Cloistered) Cleric. If he takes the Glory domain, and the Extra Turning and Empower Turning feats, I’m worried he’s going to single-handedly demolish the undead in the module. Assuming a CHA of 14, he’ll be getting 9 turning attempts a day, with a check of 1d20+6, and damage of (3d6+8)*1.5

Now, I am encouraging the characters to make characters that are optimized for fighting undead, but I’m concerned that an uber-turner will make the module un-fun, especially for the rest of the party. Am I worried over nothing?

Also, the party will be 5 characters – the module assumes 4 characters at level 6. Should I drop them down to starting at level 5 to make the module challenging?

Thanks - T

Pika...
2009-10-26, 07:57 PM
So you encouraged optimization, and now you are going to nerf a single player for doing it and not the others?

My opinion is that you will need to rework the entire module (which is pretty thick from what I remember) to be more optimized to compete with your players, and especially that one. If not I have heard what happens.

1. Count Strod comes out.
2. Cleric Turns.
3. Strod runs like a baby.
4. Strod recovers.
5. Rinse.
6. Repeat.

shaddy_24
2009-10-26, 07:59 PM
At least he's not going Radient Servent of Pelor crazyness. I specifically requested that one not be used, because it removes all threat when the cleric can kill the vampire overlord instantly.

ZeroNumerous
2009-10-26, 08:08 PM
1d20+6 means an average of 16 and that's only Cleric Level+2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead). So 8 HD or lower undead will be turned on average. I haven't looked at the module in some time but even the basic zombies have 5 HD. So you can simply buff the HD of the undead to compensate. It won't really change the module as a whole, but it'll limit the effectiveness of turning.

Thurbane
2009-10-26, 08:35 PM
So you encouraged optimization, and now you are going to nerf a single player for doing it and not the others?
I think you've misunderstood my point. I don't want to nerf anyone, but I don't want one player to outshine the others by such a degree that they won't enjoy the module...:smallfrown:

As for Strahd, he isn't your average vampire. He has quite significant defenses against most attack forms, including turning.

I don't want to have to overhaul the module too extensively - this is my first go at running a pre-written module for 3.5, and I wanted to run it as much "out of the box" as possible. But if that's the best option, then I guess I'll go with that.

I might also have a word with the cleric player, and offer him other options than maxxing out turning. He isn't an optimizer of powergamer by any means: the build above was to have been my suggestion to him, before I realized it might make the module run a bit wonky.

Like I said, I really don't want to nerf anyone, but I'd like to keep the module fun for all the players as much as possible. That's the whole point of the game, after all...:smallbiggrin:

wizuriel
2009-10-26, 08:45 PM
you can always make a minor bad guy to help the undead.

a bard 5 dirgesinger 2 (libris mortis) won't be that much of a threat but can really bolster undead forces.

Thurbane
2009-10-26, 08:50 PM
I was also thinking of throwing in some creatures like the Feral Yowler, who have an affiliation with undead, but can't be turned themselves.

Also, maybe some 1/2 vampire progeny of Strahd himself...

avr
2009-10-26, 08:56 PM
I haven't seen the module, but it's Ravenloft. Can't you assume that large areas are desecrated?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm

-3 on turning checks is only a HD on average, -6 on checks/2HD or so if you can justify some kind of religious focus present.

jmbrown
2009-10-26, 08:58 PM
Trust me when I say Castle Ravenloft is one of the most horribly stacked campaigns ever released for 3.5. The famous church encounter, when run properly, will likely kill half the party. The wandering dead you find in the streets are easy fodder for even the most unbalanced party but every unique encounter is specifically designed to take the party by surprise and rape them hard.

Allow the character as is. That campaign is so stacked against the party that even four gestalts of equal level will have a tough time. Trust me on this one.

Thurbane
2009-10-26, 09:04 PM
Allow the character as is. That campaign is so stacked against the party that even four gestalts of equal level will have a tough time. Trust me on this one.
Ouch...sounds like you found out the hard way! :smalleek:

Pika...
2009-10-26, 09:10 PM
Trust me when I say Castle Ravenloft is one of the most horribly stacked campaigns ever released for 3.5. The famous church encounter, when run properly, will likely kill half the party. The wandering dead you find in the streets are easy fodder for even the most unbalanced party but every unique encounter is specifically designed to take the party by surprise and rape them hard.

Allow the character as is. That campaign is so stacked against the party that even four gestalts of equal level will have a tough time. Trust me on this one.

Been through it. Not really in my opinion.

However, I have heard of the above rinse and repeat issue a few times, so I still caution about it.

Akal Saris
2009-10-26, 09:20 PM
You could rule that clerics must take the ACF given for them in the module, which instead makes turn undead deal 1d6/level damage to undead. He'll still be powerful, but now as a blaster instead of a no-save-kill guy.

Pika...
2009-10-26, 09:42 PM
You could rule that clerics must take the ACF given for them in the module, which instead makes turn undead deal 1d6/level damage to undead. He'll still be powerful, but now as a blaster instead of a no-save-kill guy.

Not a bad idea.

However, if the group is all optimized I would still suggest bumping up the monsters/undead unless you want them to breeze my the module.




Trust me when I say Castle Ravenloft is one of the most horribly stacked campaigns ever released for 3.5. The famous church encounter, when run properly, will likely kill half the party. The wandering dead you find in the streets are easy fodder for even the most unbalanced party but every unique encounter is specifically designed to take the party by surprise and rape them hard.

Isn't that kind of the point? I personally find it realistic. You have the worthless random creatures that are supposed to be weak, then you have things like real encounters, subbosses, and bosses. At the very least it is meant to emphasize the people there need to live with the harshness of Ravenloft, but not every encounter is a progressively stronger plot or there would be no commoners alive left in Ravenloft.

arguskos
2009-10-26, 09:58 PM
I permitted a group of gestalt level 5's to run Ravenloft. They were SLAUGHTERED by Strahd. They never even made it out of the damn town!

The story goes that one player stayed in town overnight when the others went to explore a nearby fane, since the staying behind character had some ability drain he wanted to heal over night. Strahd simply walks in, dominates that player, and it was all over right there. :smallsigh:

The campaign, when run well, is savage. Each combat is pretty brutal too. Several of the street encounters were rough enough to knock a few players to negatives. We ran a single, one-off encounter against Strahd, just for kicks, and he crushed them all without trying too hard.

shaddy_24
2009-10-26, 10:17 PM
I rana party through more than half of it. They weren't totally steamrolled by all of the unique encounters, but they did struggle with a few of them. The church encounter is only really threatening if the party handles it poorly. If they blitz in and take out the upper floor, then move down, they should have enough focused fire to prevent it from totally destroying them. That's what happened with my group. Neither encounter separatelly (except the scroll that the priest messed up in mine) is enough to cause that much destruction, though they might lose someone. It's if they end up fighting both at once that things can get really bad for them.

The general theme of the game is supposed to be horror, so it makes sense that the fights are supposed to be tough. They're supposed to lose a few players, but it's not impossible. I didn't go easy on my party except one time when they had used up all of their spells, items and were running on dry, and then rolled 1 under the number they needed to avoid a CR 15 fight against a bunch of level 8's. That was the only time I really let them off the hook except in the case of Strahd, as I've explained below.

Strahd is ment to be a foe that they can't directly compete with until later in the module, so setting him against the party early without playing him a little lightly is going to kill them. Have him pull his punches, play with them, use unoptimized tactics. My party drove him off one time because he dived into melee with them. He nearly dropped them as a wizard in melee combat, casting only a single spell. It accomplished my goal for that fight, the party realized that challenging Strahd at the hight of his power was foolish and they began to look for ways to overcome his massive advantage. I didn't get to finish the entire game, but when the party starts working to level the playing field, that's when you can have him start really fighting. It gives them some feeling of accomplishment when this formerly unstoppable foe is getting nervous about their ability to hurt him, and makes it so much better when they can actually kill him.

Superglucose
2009-10-26, 10:32 PM
Meh.

His average is 1d20 + 4, 1d20 + 2 if he uses Empower Turning, which will come to CR 8 max turn.

As for damage, 5d6+10 is pretty nice. However, that's not going to stop or bother Strahd, who's what, 15 HD vs Turn Undead? If it matters, just give him a Desecrate with a religious place on top, and suddenly the Turn Undead is worthless. If they're 5 HD zombies, when they get to Strahd suddenly the cleric will be rolling at 1d20-30 for each of the zombies, which will be 4HD of zombies at most... which won't cover the 5HD zombies.

Don't worry about him.

jmbrown
2009-10-26, 11:07 PM
Isn't that kind of the point? I personally find it realistic. You have the worthless random creatures that are supposed to be weak, then you have things like real encounters, subbosses, and bosses. At the very least it is meant to emphasize the people there need to live with the harshness of Ravenloft, but not every encounter is a progressively stronger plot or there would be no commoners alive left in Ravenloft.

Having an encounter that herds the party into a confined area followed by a character whose first attack is to cast circle of death (and his save is ridiculous) isn't my idea of a fun time!

edit: The way I'm used to DMing, random encounters are designed to use up the player's resources. I've noted through personal experience that players can whip through even the most challenging pre-crafted dungeons simply by doing something you never thought of so I use random encounters to build the game world and challenge the players. "Bosses" tend to show up in the first encounter, stick around for a couple of rounds, then retreat to freshen up. I never liked the idea of "guy who hangs out in the very last room and doesn't investigate any disturbances ever."

Thurbane
2009-10-26, 11:43 PM
Well, from the above comments, I'm inclined to let the player's optimize as they will, within reason (i.e. no pun pun). I'll run the encounters out of the box, and if they're too easy, I'll modify them slightly.

I wasn't so much worried about the turning with strahd, more about the numerous undead encounters leading up to him....

jmbrown
2009-10-27, 12:47 AM
Well, from the above comments, I'm inclined to let the player's optimize as they will, within reason (i.e. no pun pun). I'll run the encounters out of the box, and if they're too easy, I'll modify them slightly.

I wasn't so much worried about the turning with strahd, more about the numerous undead encounters leading up to him....

Honestly, the most dangerous monsters in Ravenloft aren't even undead. Strahd's recommended tactic is cornering everyone in the dungeons followed by a casting of cloudkill.

ZeroNumerous
2009-10-27, 12:59 AM
Meh.

His average is 1d20 + 4, 1d20 + 2 if he uses Empower Turning, which will come to CR 8 max turn.

Not quite. Max of 10 HD, not CR. This is a subtle but vital distinction. While he could turn an 8HD Ogre Zombie(a 'mere' CR 3) on average, he could never turn a 12HD minotaur zombie until he was level 8(but it's only CR 4). This makes it fairly easy to balance by just adding HD(which are D12s with poor BAB and crap saves). Sure, it occasionally rolls well enough to blast a bunch of zombies, but it's also not entirely 100% guaranteed to brain-screw some zombies.

Superglucose
2009-10-27, 01:13 AM
I meant to say HD >.<

Then definitely yeah, don't worry about the turning.

Delandel
2009-10-27, 01:36 AM
Yes, the cleric has the potential to make certain encounters turn very silly. It's really not a problem with mooks though, that's what they're there for. If you're following straight with the module you'll sometimes be throwing so many zombies at them that it's a bit of a relief that the cleric ends the encounters prematurely. Keep in mind fleeing undead can run right back after the duration is over too. Most of the undead have enough HD that if you throw enough of them at the party, the cleric is only going to be turning 2-3 of them and the rest will keep hammering. Fair crowd control IMO.

I also recommend the cleric turning variant that deals damage instead. I think it's in Complete Divine. If they become a lightbringer they can get it that way too.

Play out the first couple encounters and see how it goes. If the cleric is outshining everyone or drastically lowering the challenge of the encounters, there's many counters available. Desecrated areas, undead clerics that can bolster, a bunch of spells, some items (there's a cloak in MIC that gives +4 turn resist for BBEG's).

I'm running the encounter right now so I don't want to get into spoilery details, but shoot me a PM and I'll help you to the best of my ability.

babson99
2009-10-27, 08:03 AM
After running Expedition to Castle Ravenloft twice, start to finish, I can recommend the following:

Any turning that would destroy Strahd (from Glory domain, etc.) turns him gaseous and sends him back to his coffin. For full dramatic effect, you want the players to stake him in his crypt.
Remember that Strahd has invited the characters there for some reason. He's not going to try to kill them until they've accomplished what he wants them to do, or until they make it clear that they're more trouble than they're worth. Either way, the party should have gained 2-3 levels by then.
Strahd has +4 turn resistance as a vampire, and could plausibly have more in his castle.
The Moon ring that gives a +4 untyped bonus to turn checks? Don't give it out.
Deciding in advance what Strahd's motivations are and where the Sunsword et al. are hidden will make your life easier. The players can still have Madame Eva tell their fortunes, but the outcomes are preset.
In the church, change the priest's scroll from Circle of Death to Inflict Mass Serious Wounds. Save-or-die spells aren't fun.
That air troll that lives in the stairwell near the elevator trap should speak Common, and maybe lead off with a challenge instead of an ambush. Otherwise, the party will never communicate with it.
The demon Khrisitryx should seek out the party and, in non-demon form, invite them to visit her garden. Otherwise the party might not go there.
Be ready for the party to go anywhere. My first group of players flew to the top of the highest tower, where the Dayheart is, and worked their way down. The second group went in the servants' entrance and went to the cellar and servants' quarters.
As a high-level necromancer in his ancestral castle, Strahd is plenty tough. Cloudkill in a closed space is painful. Strahd also has a ring of spell turning that can nerf the party's favorite spell: searing light, fireball, etc. Strahd will know what this spell is from his scrying.
There's no "Concluding the Adventure" section, which is unfortunate. Have something in mind.


It's a very good adventure, with a mix of indoor and outdoor, combat and diplomacy, and villains of various powers and motivations. Just make sure you're familiar with the castle, because the party will almost certainly go places you're not expecting.

jiriku
2009-10-27, 09:45 AM
Hi all,

I’m going to be running EtCR soon, and I have a concern. One of the players will be taking a (Cloistered) Cleric. If he takes the Glory domain, and the Extra Turning and Empower Turning feats, I’m worried he’s going to single-handedly demolish the undead in the module. Assuming a CHA of 14, he’ll be getting 9 turning attempts a day, with a check of 1d20+6, and damage of (3d6+8)*1.5

Now, I am encouraging the characters to make characters that are optimized for fighting undead, but I’m concerned that an uber-turner will make the module un-fun, especially for the rest of the party. Am I worried over nothing?

Also, the party will be 5 characters – the module assumes 4 characters at level 6. Should I drop them down to starting at level 5 to make the module challenging?

Thanks - T

Be aware that as far as a turn beast cleric goes, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. If he stacks Heighten turning and Improved Turning on top of that, he'll be able to turn undead at an additional 6 HD above his current build. Greater Turning will let him burn two attempts to destroy anything he can turn.

There are two ways you can compensate in encounter-building so that he has his fun without overshadowing the other characters:

Replace easily turned undead with different undead that have more HD or turn resistance at the equivalent challenge rating. For example, a troll skeleton is CR 3 with 6HD, but an ogre zombie fills a similar role and is CR 3 with 8HD. A CR 5 wraith is 7HD including turn resistance, but an advanced shadow is effectively 11HD to turn, and also CR 5. Using this strategy means he still gets to use his gee-whiz turning abilities, but he'll be turning fewer monsters per standard action, and leaving more for the rest of the party to fight.

Your second strategy is mixed encounters. Take some of the all-undead encounters, remove some of the undead, and replace them with feral yowlers, dire rats, dire maggots, necromancers, dominated thralls, or whatever else you like that's not undead. This ensures that some portion of the threat can't be solved by taking a standard action to turn, and again, lets the other party members shine.

Myou
2009-10-27, 10:17 AM
1. Count Strod comes out.

Ah, yes, the horrifying lord of mangled names, Count Strod Van Tsar o' Ditch.



Anyway, ignore all the prophets of doom, Ravenloft isn't dangerous at all in 3.5. I should know, a few hours ago I was fighting Strahd atop the castle roof, and I'm still here, aren't I? :smalltongue:

A party of two level 6 gestalts and one level 5 npc walked all over the stupid church encounter, the priest failed to activate his scroll, as was likely given the level of it, and they wiped out all the enemies on both floors in about four rounds. No losses.

Seatbelt
2009-10-27, 12:02 PM
Ah, yes, the horrifying lord of mangled names, Count Strod Van Tsar o' Ditch.



Anyway, ignore all the prophets of doom, Ravenloft isn't dangerous at all in 3.5. I should know, a few hours ago I was fighting Strahd atop the castle roof, and I'm still here, aren't I? :smalltongue:

A party of two level 6 gestalts and one level 5 npc walked all over the stupid church encounter, the priest failed to activate his scroll, as was likely given the level of it, and they wiped out all the enemies on both floors in about four rounds. No losses.

The module is lethal when the party is only semi optimized. If they've done a good job power gaming you need to tweak certain monsters. Doru for example had Toughness 4 times, and Improved Toughness once. The encounter gets harder if you give him power attack and some other thing.
The True Necromancer in the crypt is pretty weak too.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-27, 12:45 PM
The True Necromancer in the crypt is pretty weak too.*sobs*

You printed Dread Necromancer for a REASON, WotC. USE IT!

Myou
2009-10-27, 12:59 PM
The module is lethal when the party is only semi optimized. If they've done a good job power gaming you need to tweak certain monsters. Doru for example had Toughness 4 times, and Improved Toughness once. The encounter gets harder if you give him power attack and some other thing.
The True Necromancer in the crypt is pretty weak too.

Well, sure, if you change all the builds then it'll be harder. :smalltongue:
But the characters certainly weren't powergamers.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-10-27, 01:54 PM
Be aware that as far as a turn beast cleric goes, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. If he stacks Heighten turning and Improved Turning on top of that, he'll be able to turn undead at an additional 6 HD above his current build. Greater Turning will let him burn two attempts to destroy anything he can turn.Hah

hehe

That's nothin'. Outside of core things get pretty nuts. I would have to warn the DM about letting me an undead-themed campaign. I'd prove my namesake.