spontaneous spellcasters are Weak

[oxinabox]

Influence: Never admit that you need help or that you are weaker than anyone else. Treat those that are weaker than you with scorn and contempt, especially young women and spontaneous spellcasters.

from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718

That imused me, that that's in a WotC publication

[Optimystik]

I think you misread that. It says "treat those that are weaker than you with contempt, especially young women and spontaneous spellcasters."

The idea is that Zceryll, having been both a woman and a spontaneous spellcaster in life, sees no reason why either should be weak. So when she is influencing you, coming across any one or both of those who is weak fills her (and therefore you) with contempt.

It's not a statement about WotC's own views.

[oxinabox]

I think you misread that. It says "treat those that are weaker than you with contempt, especially young women and spontaneous spellcasters."

The idea is that Zceryll, having been both a woman and a spontaneous spellcaster in life, sees no reason why either should be weak. So when she is influencing you, coming across any one or both of those who is weak fills her (and therefore you) with contempt.

It's not a statement about WotC's own views.

Ahhh, oh well.
Things taken out of context.
I only skimmed the article looking for vestiges, and that poped out at me.


It's not a statement about WotC's own views
of course not... but I thought it might be a point of veiw of a vestage

Kinda weird though: If your a binder you arn't normally a spontaneous spellcaster - you don't cast spells.

[Burley]

It's not a statement about WotC's own views.
Yeah. I read that article and...

Well, saying that WotC thinks spontaneous casting is weak because of this is like saying they think people are nothing more than meat for the slaughter because they put that in the fluff for demons.

Besides, if spontaneous casters were weak, sorcerors would have more class abilities that "Animal that enemies can attack to drain your XP."

[Optimystik]

of course not... but I thought it might be a point of veiw of a vestage

Kinda weird though: If your a binder you arn't normally a spontaneous spellcaster - you don't cast spells.

Well yes, it is the point of view of a vestige. The Vestiges are designed to have irrational/unreasonable points of view, because the "influence" is supposed to be the drawback to Binding (i.e. it's what happens if you fail your binding check.)

And it's not weird at all. You're correct that you're not really a spontaneous caster... but Zceryll is, and it's her contempt you're feeling and being forced to act on. Influence means that the vestige is able to exert its personality and feelings over yours and override you for as long as you have it bound.

[oxinabox]

Well yes, it is the point of view of a vestige. The Vestiges are designed to have irrational/unreasonable points of view, because the "influence" is supposed to be the drawback to Binding (i.e. it's what happens if you fail your binding check.)

And it's not weird at all. You're correct that you're not really a spontaneous caster... but Zceryll is, and it's her contempt you're feeling and being forced to act on. Influence means that the vestige is able to exert its personality and feelings over yours and override you for as long as you have it bound.

yes, I have read the rules. (sorry if this comes off kinda abrupt)
but from a mechanical point of veiw, it's an odd thing for you, an generally nonspontaneous caster to feel more contempt for people, esp is you're a spontaneous caster.

Then again the Vestiges don't care. So yeah, i guess it works.
It's basically only a fluff addition to the influence, unless your a spontaneous caster - in wich case you show even more contempt for thos weaker than you...

[Optimystik]

yes, I have read the rules. (sorry if this comes off kinda abrupt)

Not at all. :smallsmile:


but from a mechanical point of veiw, it's an odd thing for you, an generally nonspontaneous caster to feel more contempt for people, esp is you're a spontaneous caster.

Why is that odd? Any class can easily feel contempt for any other. Many Wizards disparage Sorcerers, many Barbarians hate Wizards, many Monks scoff at Barbarians, many Bards sneer at Monks, everyone dislikes Paladins... Generally, the only people that a class is reasonably certain to get along with are members of their own class.

Binders are almost universally disliked, because what they do involves a fair amount of squick. ToM says as much. So for them to reciprocate that bad feeling isn't just reasonable, it's almost expected in my book.


Then again the Vestiges don't care. So yeah, i guess it works.
It's basically only a fluff addition to the influence, unless your a spontaneous caster - in wich case you show even more contempt for thos weaker than you...

That's the beauty of the Binder, it's a class that seamlessly melds fluff and mechanics (rather like Wu Jen and its Taboos, only more fun.) They are both sort of a built-in minigame between you and the DM. 10 to one, after bungling your binding with Zceryll, your PC will meet an important noblewoman and sneer in her face, landing him a one-way trip to the stocks or the dungeon as part of the DM's plot. So while you're right that it's mostly fluff, it can still have gameplay implications.

Besides, the DM has the tools to make any fluff he wants be mechanically relevant; namely, circumstance modifiers. A circumstance penalty to your Diplomacy checks towards women and sorcerers would be reasonable under Zceryll's influence.