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Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 08:22 AM
Please don't bite me...

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7199658&posted=1#post7199658) thread, in the OotS section, has derailed on a confrontation Fighter Vs wizard of various levels (see pages 3 and 4).

In the end, a 20th lev. fighter have some chance against a Wizard 13th lev?
Consider full WBL and all the tricks affordable for the two.
You can even give the fighter UMD ala Giacomo's monk.... optimize him to face a wizard.
Can the fighter wins? and augmenting the gape, what is the minimum level of the wizard to have a chance to win?

Eventually, you can link me to oldest threads on similar challenges for different level characters.

Asta Kask
2009-10-27, 08:32 AM
Sure. A 20th-level fighter with high Charisma can recruit a 17th-level wizard as a cohort.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 08:32 AM
A pure wizard 13? Possible, but difficult, for the fighter to win.

By Wizard 15, I'd say there's simply not much hope.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 08:33 AM
In Core, the Fighter probably has a small chance if the Wizard knows he'll be fighting a Fighter who tries to take his life while preparing spells, or has few key scrolls available. Level 7 spells are a bitch.

The real problem is that the Wizard can just über-Dispel Fighter's key items (most relevantly, ones that provide him with flight) and be untouchable as he tosses Enervations or whatever the hell at the Fighter with Contingency providing one Get Out Of the Jail For Free-card and stuff like Mirror Image and such making Fighter's attacks, even if he somehow does get to attack, pretty useless.

Out-of-Core, Fighter gets a lot of neat tricks including making himself difficult to detect and actually being able to go lethal if he gets an attack off, but if we allow everything including Craft Contingent Spell and Celerity, it's all over. And the point at which the Fighter just won't win is when the Wizard gets level 9 spells.


There have been threads on this before, but can't find 'em.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-27, 08:37 AM
In the end, a 20th lev. fighter have some chance against a Wizard 13th lev?
Some chance? Sure. Much? Probably not. Depends on how many splatbooks you're using.


You can even give the fighter UMD ala Giacomo's monk.... optimize him to face a wizard.
That strategy hasn't worked very well for monks so far, although of course fighters would be slightly better at it (due to less MAD). It has some use at level 20, certainly, but wands are only available for spells up to level 3, and scroll usage DCs can get obnoxiously high for a class that doesn't have UMD on his class list. Overall, "taking ranks in UMD" is a far cry from "optimizing to face a wizard".


what is the minimum level of the wizard to have a chance to win?
I suppose fifth. Wizard casts hold person, then proceeds to coup-de-grace with a scythe.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 08:55 AM
I'd argue that a well-built Fighter 20 can beat a Wizard 16. At Wizard 17, with 9th level spells, things start getting crazy, but before that, the wealth dominates.

Lvl 20 wealth: 760k
Lvl 16 wealth: 260k

UMD is a cross-class skill, so Fighter has 11 ranks. +5 from 14+6 CHA, +3 for Skill Focus, and +10 from an item, that's +29, enough to activate every scroll. The key to winning with the Fighter is to win Initiative. With a Halfling DEX-based fighter, 28 pt buy:

STR: 10
DEX: 18+5+5+6 = 34 (+12)
CON: 14+6=20 (+5)
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 14+6=20 (+5)

Take Improved Initiative Feat, and a couple scrolls of Moment of Prescience, the Init mod is at:

12 (DEX) + 4 (feat) + 17 (MoP) = +33

A wizard is going to struggle to beat that, unless you use the highly cheesy (and usually banned) Dragon magazine Hummingbird familiar with an extra ability from somewhere to double the familiar's bonus.

The key point is that anything the Wizard can do, the Fighter can also do from Scrolls, plus he can prepare a whole bunch of Cleric/Druid/Sorceror spells as well.

As mentioned previously in the other thread, Celerity requires an immediate action, and you can't take immediate actions while flat-footed, which you are until you take your first action. So losing initiative means no Celerity.

Also, note that Celerity is a 4th level spell, which means it can be duplicated with a Wand. The rules for activating a wand are the same time as it takes to cast the spell, so the Fighter presumably could also do Celerity.

Finally, for Contingent spells, you need to carefully define what the contingency is. The Contingent spell acts in reaction to the trigger, which means the trigger completes first. If the Fighter lobs a Destruction spell from a scroll, the death/damage is applied before the contingent spell..

A much better strategy is to Celerity for an extra action, Antimagic Field yourself, and then charge-grapple the mage. Grappled Mage in Antimagic Field = powerless.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-27, 08:56 AM
I
UMD is a cross-class skill, so Fighter has 11 ranks. +5 from 14+6 CHA, +3 for Skill Focus, and +10 from an item, that's +29, enough to activate every scroll.
If you're going to optimize UMD like that, it's much easier to start with a rogue :smalltongue:

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 08:59 AM
If you're going to optimize UMD like that, it's much easier to start with a rogue :smalltongue:

It's true, it's true, but the original topic was Fighter 20 vs Wizard 13. So picking Rogue seemed illegal.:smallbiggrin:

Lamech
2009-10-27, 09:01 AM
Yeah, a fighter twenty will have a cohort, who will have a cohort, who will kill the wizard. Yeah... I'm not seeing this ending well for our hapless wizard.

mostlyharmful
2009-10-27, 09:02 AM
You could just use the Cosmopolitan feat to give him UMD as a class skill with a small bonus. That'd work, no-ones banned setting specific have they?

lord_khaine
2009-10-27, 09:03 AM
A much better strategy is to Celerity for an extra action, Antimagic Field yourself, and then charge-grapple the mage. Grappled Mage in Antimagic Field = powerless

This will require either natural flight, or a displel magic, since its a wellknown fact that wizards are lasy, and stops walking anywhere around lv 11-12.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-27, 09:04 AM
It's true, it's true, but the original topic was Fighter 20 vs Wizard 13. So picking Rogue seemed illegal.:smallbiggrin:

Yes, but on the other hand, if all you're doing is UMD'ing (rather than, oh say, using fighter class abilities) then all you're really proving is that a level-20 wizard can beat a level-13 wizard.

mostlyharmful
2009-10-27, 09:05 AM
This will require either natural flight, or a displel magic, since its a wellknown fact that wizards are lasy, and stops walking anywhere around lv 11-12.

Earlier than that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm):smallwink:

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 09:09 AM
A much better strategy is to Antimagic Field yourself, and Celerity for an extra standard action, and then grapple the mage. Grappled Mage in Antimagic Field = powerless.

That's a horrible strategy. Mages fly (Overland Flight, Phantom Steed, etc.). Without magic, you don't. Also, you don't cast Celerity in AMF. AMF is **** unless you are an Initiate of Mystra. And hell, AMF is a common Contingency target. And if you could grapple the mage, you could kill him. Why the hell would you grapple him? Heck, you could just Trip Lockdown; even that's more efficient. I never got peoples' fetish with grapple; why would you bother?


One mistake, I need to point out: Fighter needs 37 UMD to activate every scroll. The DC is derived off CL, not Spell Level. It's also worth noting that Wizard has MoP too, boiling the Initiative most likely down to a die roll. Finally, we must remember that every time the fight ends in a draw (that is, one side teleports out), Fighter has consumed a tremendous amount of resources while the Wizard has consumed none.

This makes for a very doable Wizard plan of just engaging with contingent teleport to get out once a spell is cast and rince and repeat until the Fighter runs out of wealth. And Fighter needs to have the items he plans on using in hands. He cannot activate an item he isn't wielding; therefore, if he plans on keeping Celerity Wand available at all times, he'll have serious issues using a variety of other spells too.


Cleric/Druid/Sorc spells are cute, but that doesn't help 'cause all the relevant ones are Wizard-spells too. But really, the question is, to what level are we taking this? If we bring in Craft Contingent Spell, Fighter autoloses to a level 13 Wizard simply because Fighter doesn't qualify for the feat, but Wizard does.

This means Wizard can take ~13 turns in consecution to the Fighter's one Celerity and cram the Fighter into an AMFd hole with Acid Fog or similar constant effect slowly milking the Fighter's life away. Or just go Boom Boom Boom and Dispel Fighter's protections followed by Enervating the Fighter to high heavens or whatever.


If we don't allow it, this is much more interesting. Of course, Leadership messes this up 'cause it proves is that level 18 Wizard beats a level 13 Wizard.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 09:09 AM
A much better strategy is to Celerity for an extra action, Antimagic Field yourself, and then charge-grapple the mage. Grappled Mage in Antimagic Field = powerless.

Welcome ghostaxe. :smallwink:

Don't consider AMF.
From 9th lev and on, the wiz. is constantly flying, and you need magic to approach him.


If we bring in Craft Contingent Spell, Fighter autoloses to a level 13 Wizard simply because Fighter doesn't qualify for the feat, but Wizard does.
If we don't allow it, this is much more interesting. Of course, Leadership messes this up 'cause it proves is that level 18 Wizard beats a level 13 Wizard.

I would deny CCS, and also Leadership.

That said, even the fact that you need a 20th fighter against a 13th wiz. to have a slight hope, means something, i think...

ex cathedra
2009-10-27, 09:10 AM
I'd argue that a well-built Fighter 20 can beat a Wizard 16. At Wizard 17, with 9th level spells, things start getting crazy, but before that, the wealth dominates.

(Lots of stuff)

This is pointless. You aren't really optimizing a fighter. What portion of that strategy is derived from the fighter class? Improved Initiative is on the fighter bonus feat list, so that's... just about it. This isn't Fighter 20 vs Wizard x, because for all intents and purposes you aren't making a fighter.

Additionally, Wizard 16 still wins, in my opinion. It can probably beat the initiative mod, as well. You didn't put very much effort into increasing yours.

jiriku
2009-10-27, 09:11 AM
The fighter 20 could easily crush the wizard 13, but we should be clear about something: it's not so much the fighter who's winning as the fighter's gear. With more than half a million gp in elaborate gadgets, the fighter can afford a gadget to prevent teleportation, a gadget to avoid divination, a handful of gadgets to buff his Reflex and Will saves into the stratosphere, a few more gadgets to make himself undetectable (dust of disappearance much?), a gadget to allow unlimited UMD, gadget to fly, teleport, and scry, a gadget or three to make it difficult or impossible for the wizard to cast spells, and more.

A character with NPC warrior levels could do much the same thing. The only advantage the fighter has over the warrior is that it's relatively trivial for him to boost his damage output to where he can one-shot the wizard, and he has easier access to the mageslayer line of feats, which he can use to further hamper the wizard's ability to cast. These things make the battle easier for the fighter because they mean that the wizard cannot ever make a single mistake, or he's dead, but the ability to neutralize the wizard's formidable defenses is coming from gear that anyone can buy, given enough wealth.

Oslecamo
2009-10-27, 09:14 AM
Some chance? Sure. Much? Probably not. Depends on how many splatbooks you're using.


That strategy hasn't worked very well for monks so far, although of course fighters would be slightly better at it (due to less MAD). It has some use at level 20, certainly, but wands are only available for spells up to level 3, and scroll usage DCs can get obnoxiously high for a class that doesn't have UMD on his class list. Overall, "taking ranks in UMD" is a far cry from "optimizing to face a wizard".
I'm pretty sure that wands can go up to lv4 spells.



I suppose fifth. Wizard casts hold person, then proceeds to coup-de-grace with a scythe.

Because everybody knows that fighters don't have a will save. Or fort save.

What happens when the fighter wins iniative and splits the wizard's head in half since he still can't afford contingencies?

Kurald Galain
2009-10-27, 09:18 AM
I'm pretty sure that wands can go up to lv4 spells.
4th, then. That doesn't invalidate my point though.



Because everybody knows that fighters don't have a will save. Or fort save.
The OP asked for "minimum level of the wizard to have a chance to win". Not the minmum level where the wiz is sure to win. So your point is?

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:19 AM
Welcome ghostaxe. :smallwink:

Don't consider AMF.
From 9th lev and on, the wiz. is constantly flying, and you need magic to approach him.



I would deny CCS, and also Leadership.

That said, even the fact that you need a 20th fighter against a 13th wiz. to have a slight hope, means something, i think...

Hm... apparently no one here has heard of a flying mount, like a Great Eagle. Ride is a Fighter skill, you know.

Also, I wasn't trying to prove Fighter 20 is a good build, I was trying to prove that lvl 20 wealth + UMD beats lvl 16 wizard.

Also, Fighter is good for extra BAB, which is useful for grappling.

mostlyharmful
2009-10-27, 09:19 AM
I'm pretty sure that wands can go up to lv4 spells.

Except it takes a standerd action to activate a wand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) unless the spell in question takes longer than a standerd action to cast in which case the wand takes just as long. No immediate action spells for UMDers, it's one of the reasons they're never quite at the same level as the original caster.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 09:21 AM
The OP asked for "minimum level of the wizard to have a chance to win". Not the minmum level where the wiz is sure to win. So your point is?

errr... can we meet on a medium level? as "a good chance to win"?
Theoretical ones (as our hold person) can happen 1 in 1000, but are no warranty of success.


Hm... apparently no one here has heard of a flying mount, like a Great Eagle. Ride is a Fighter skill, you know.


Good luck surprising the wizard and making him losing the initiative in the open with your giant flying bird...

drengnikrafe
2009-10-27, 09:27 AM
I'm really fond of the part where everyone talks about the wizard flying as though it would totally destroy the fighters chance of hitting him. There are bows. There are pendants (or something) of spell resistance that will force a CL check, and I imagine at 20th level a fighter can afford a pretty good one. If you'd like to call it cheap for a fighter to spend lots of his wealth on fighting a wizard, then the wizard wouldn't be permitted to know he was fighting the fighter, and thus would prepare more random spells, and less combat spells. Keep in mind, all of this is my personal opinion. I may be overlooking some glaring flaw in my 'logic'. I just thought I should put that out there.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-27, 09:28 AM
Except it takes a standerd action to activate a wand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) unless the spell in question takes longer than a standerd action to cast in which case the wand takes just as long. No immediate action spells for UMDers, it's one of the reasons they're never quite at the same level as the original caster.

Rules compendruim said the spells activation time. Or was that just scrolls...
I know it said swift action scrolls are possible.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-27, 09:31 AM
errr... can we meet on a medium level? as "a good chance to win"?
Theoretical ones (as our hold person) can happen 1 in 1000, but are no warranty of success.
Certainly. What odds do you want for a good chance? What odds do you want for a warranty?

Note that my example is not as weird as it sounds... a level-20 fighter has a base will save of +6. Hold person easily has a save DC of 10 + 3 (spell level) + 4 (intelligence) + 1 (spell focus) = 18. While it's certainly possible for the fighter to boost his save by +11, it is not at all a given.


If you'd like to call it cheap for a fighter to spend lots of his wealth on fighting a wizard,
It's not "cheap" or anything, but any tactic that can also be used by a twentieth-level commoner doesn't actually say anything about the fighter class.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:33 AM
That's a horrible strategy. Mages fly (Overland Flight, Phantom Steed, etc.). Without magic, you don't. Also, you don't cast Celerity in AMF. AMF is **** unless you are an Initiate of Mystra. And hell, AMF is a common Contingency target. And if you could grapple the mage, you could kill him. Why the hell would you grapple him? Heck, you could just Trip Lockdown; even that's more efficient. I never got peoples' fetish with grapple; why would you bother?


One mistake, I need to point out: Fighter needs 37 UMD to activate every scroll. The DC is derived off CL, not Spell Level. It's also worth noting that Wizard has MoP too, boiling the Initiative most likely down to a die roll. Finally, we must remember that every time the fight ends in a draw (that is, one side teleports out), Fighter has consumed a tremendous amount of resources while the Wizard has consumed none.

This makes for a very doable Wizard plan of just engaging with contingent teleport to get out once a spell is cast and rince and repeat until the Fighter runs out of wealth. And Fighter needs to have the items he plans on using in hands. He cannot activate an item he isn't wielding; therefore, if he plans on keeping Celerity Wand available at all times, he'll have serious issues using a variety of other spells too.


Cleric/Druid/Sorc spells are cute, but that doesn't help 'cause all the relevant ones are Wizard-spells too. But really, the question is, to what level are we taking this? If we bring in Craft Contingent Spell, Fighter autoloses to a level 13 Wizard simply because Fighter doesn't qualify for the feat, but Wizard does.

This means Wizard can take ~13 turns in consecution to the Fighter's one Celerity and cram the Fighter into an AMFd hole with Acid Fog or similar constant effect slowly milking the Fighter's life away. Or just go Boom Boom Boom and Dispel Fighter's protections followed by Enervating the Fighter to high heavens or whatever.


If we don't allow it, this is much more interesting. Of course, Leadership messes this up 'cause it proves is that level 18 Wizard beats a level 13 Wizard.

Oops, you are correct, scrolls are 20+CL, so I need 36 UMD skill to guarantee success. If we allow the Cosmopolitan feat, then we're there already. If not, take the magical aptitude feat (another +2 to UMD), 5 ranks of spellcraft for the +2 synergy, Luckstone for +1 luck, and we're at +34. I'm sure I can squeeze another +2 from somewhere, by using a Tome of +4 CHA if nothing else.

I used grapple because I tried to make this build as "core" as possible, and a lot of the trip lockdown builds requires extra splats.

You can use Celerity from the Wand easily by having the Quick Draw feat (duh!). A Wizard 16 would have MoP, true, but a Wizard 13 would not. And even if the wizard 16 has MoP, the fighter is still slightly favored, because of higher DEX.

Craft Contingent Spell and Contingent spells are silly. You're triggering the Contingent teleport for when anyone in a 200 foot radius casts a spell? Hello, that'd be gone like, the minute you enter into a major city. Even granting that you could do so feasibly, there's a much easier path for the Fighter:

Dimensional Anchor (standard action)
Celerity (immediate action)
Antimagic Field (standard action)
Mount charges and grapples (mount's full action)

The contingent spell resolves after the trigger, so the trigger is Dimensional Anchor on the wizard, which negates the teleport spell.

Oslecamo
2009-10-27, 09:33 AM
The OP asked for "minimum level of the wizard to have a chance to win". Not the minmum level where the wiz is sure to win. So your point is?

That a lv 20 fighter, or any character actualy, wich doesn't have a freedom of movement/mindblanck item or any other kind of anti paralysis trick should seriously consider comiting sepukku.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 09:34 AM
Certainly. What odds do you want for a good chance? What odds do you want for a warranty?

Note that my example is not as weird as it sounds... a level-20 fighter has a base will save of +6. Hold person easily has a save DC of 10 + 3 (spell level) + 4 (intelligence) + 1 (spell focus) = 18. While it's certainly possible for the fighter to boost his save by +11, it is not at all a given.

You know, in this kind of challenges, also the fighter is a little shroedinger. He can have a +5 cloack of resistance but, if there's need, also a cape of the mountebank. :smallbiggrin:

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:35 AM
Except it takes a standerd action to activate a wand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm) unless the spell in question takes longer than a standerd action to cast in which case the wand takes just as long. No immediate action spells for UMDers, it's one of the reasons they're never quite at the same level as the original caster.

Please read the link carefully. It says "usually 1 standard action." I had a long debate with a friend in a game, and he eventually found it in the Rules Compendium somewhere that's it's the same action.

Flickerdart
2009-10-27, 09:36 AM
@drengnikrafe: Archery does piddling damage and is blocked by Wind Wall. Plenty of spells are SR: No, so the Fighter can get a whole cartload of pendants and still die. Wizards get enough slots to prepare both "random" spells and combat spells, and most non-combat spells would be on wands and scrolls anyway. If the Wizard is in the air and the Fighter isn't, the Fighter lost. If both are in the air or on the ground, then it's slightly more of a toss-up.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:36 AM
errr... can we meet on a medium level? as "a good chance to win"?
Theoretical ones (as our hold person) can happen 1 in 1000, but are no warranty of success.



Good luck surprising the wizard and making him losing the initiative in the open with your giant flying bird...

Apparently no one has heard of Invisibility either. There's a version in the Spell Compendium called Supreme Invisibility that foils all See Invis too, to boot. I think it's 8th level?

Boci
2009-10-27, 09:38 AM
Wow, I never realized how cool fighters were until I read this thread. They can cast spells, by using wands and UMD. They can make themselves immune to certain abilities, with magic items. Doesn't that all make the fighter class sound so cool!

I understand that the use of magical items is a perfectly valid tactic for a character, but ghostaxe, do you really think its good that a fighter needs them so much more than a wizard?


I think it's 8th level?

9th in complete arcane, don't know if it was changed.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-27, 09:41 AM
Wow, I never realized how cool fighters were until I read this thread.
They fight wizzards and doesn't afraid of anything!

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:44 AM
Wow, I never realized how cool fighters were until I read this thread. They can cast spells, by using wands and UMD. They can make themselves immune to certain abilities, with magic items. Does that all make the fighter class sound so cool!

I understand that the use of magical items is a perfectly valid tactic for a character, but ghostaxe, do you really think its good that a fighter needs them so much more than a wizard?



9th in complete arcane, don't know if it was changed.

Nah, I'm just saying money is cool... so cool that you can beat a level 16 wizard with level 20 wealth (although Fighter bonus feats also help).

But geez, you guys are really straw-manning here. Even with the improved Wizard 16, you haven't really convinced me that the Wizard has more than a 50% chance of winning, let alone a Wizard 13...

Boci
2009-10-27, 09:44 AM
By the way, if people have rpol accounts I have a free game to make a quick tournament session.



But geez, you guys are really straw-manning here. Even with the improved Wizard 16, you haven't really convinced me that the Wizard has more than a 50% chance of winning, let alone a Wizard 13...

Hence the arena game. On internet forumes, wizards become spontenous casters and fighters WBL becomes likewise.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:46 AM
By the way, if people have rpol accounts I have a free game to make a quick tournament session.

Wait... everyone understands that I'm not saying I can win with a Fighter 20 against a Wizard 20, right? I'm just saying wealth is good, and can do lots if used smartly...

Radiun
2009-10-27, 09:47 AM
Is it a level 20 human fighter or ECL 20 character with fighter levels?
Or in other words, can the Fighter be a naturally winged death Knight?

Johel
2009-10-27, 09:48 AM
I'll say it really depend on the fighter's equipment.
I that I agree with ghostaxe : money is cool and, when you got enough of it, it can make up for your weakness

The Fighter feats aren't really relevant here : if he can get to the melee, that means the wizard has screwed big time and won't get out of it alive without a timed contingency of teleportation.

For victory, a Fighter will need :
An item that gives him a fly speed.
An item that gives him something like "Mind Blank"
An item that gives him an SR 23 or more.
Maybe something to boost his Reflex save.
Those are the top necessity. Any other item is a bonus.

Boci
2009-10-27, 09:49 AM
Wait... everyone understands that I'm not saying I can win with a Fighter 20 against a Wizard 20, right? I'm just saying wealth is good, and can do lots if used smartly...

Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13, full WBL.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 09:53 AM
Wait... everyone understands that I'm not saying I can win with a Fighter 20 against a Wizard 20, right? I'm just saying wealth is good, and can do lots if used smartly...

Yes, I've understood you point. WBL makes a difference, but our point is: in this thread, the main role in ANY tactic against this 13th lev. wizard, is to use UMD and scrolls of higher level spells (arriving to 9th level).
In this case, you very probably win, but you're usin' spells, no more standard magical equipment to improve your class abilities or to overcome your weakness.
It's money and spells agains less money and spell.
The fact that, for facing a wizard 13° without a spellcaster, you need the WBL of 20th level and spells, alienating the original structure of the fighter, demonstrate our thesis.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:54 AM
Fighter 20 Vs Wizard 13, full WBL.

OK, I'm up for this, but I don't know how this works. Are you starting another thread somewhere? Are you running an adversarial duel where the two players don't know each other's starting packages? Are you doing statistics over many runs? Are we allowed to prepare? If so, how many rounds?

drengnikrafe
2009-10-27, 09:55 AM
@drengnikrafe: Archery does piddling damage and is blocked by Wind Wall. Plenty of spells are SR: No, so the Fighter can get a whole cartload of pendants and still die. Wizards get enough slots to prepare both "random" spells and combat spells, and most non-combat spells would be on wands and scrolls anyway. If the Wizard is in the air and the Fighter isn't, the Fighter lost. If both are in the air or on the ground, then it's slightly more of a toss-up.

There ya have it. Learn something new every day. I do have one last thought, though. What if both the fighter and the mage are in the air, the way that could happen if the fighter had a (some magic item) of fly/overland flight (or whatever) made by a very high level caster, in such a way that it couldn't be dispelled? Is that still a toss-up, or does the wizard still have the edge?

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:57 AM
Yes, I've understood you point. WBL makes a difference, but our point is: in this thread, the main role in ANY tactic against this 13th lev. wizard, is to use UMD and scrolls of higher level spells (arriving to 9th level).
In this case, you very probably win, but you're usin' spells, no more standard magical equipment to improve your class abilities or to overcome your weakness.
It's money and spells agains less money and spell.
The fact that, for facing a wizard 13° without a spellcaster, you need the WBL of 20th level and spells, alienating the original structure of the fighter, demonstrate our thesis.

Right. That was what I was arguing all along. It's not feasible to win against someone more than 4 levels above you, because he has so much extra wealth. With wealth and good playing, he will win.

Cicciograna
2009-10-27, 10:10 AM
You know, I always thought that a simple anti-caster technique is to attack not the caster (as he's protected by layers upon layers of abjurations and Contingency) but his spell components' pouch: its AC is 10 + 2 (considering it Tiny, but it could well be Small) + 6 (assuming the caster has a Dex of 22 - but that can be lower) and it has 10 HP tops.

Assuming that a level 20 Fighter can score this hit and survive the AoO, the Wizard can say goodbye to A LOT of spells, for example, staying Core, there is a total of 35 level 7 spells: 14 of these have a material components, thus can't be used. And if the DM is really Evil he could decree that all the focii are now on the ground, and that half of them are broken.

Indon
2009-10-27, 10:11 AM
@drengnikrafe: Archery does piddling damage and is blocked by Wind Wall.
A Level 20 Fighter can reliably pump out 100+ damage in a single full-round archery attack with minimal optimization. It's save to say he can kill a level 13 Wizard in a single round if optimized, provided only that he isn't defeated by a guaranteed defense such as Wind Wall.

An Archery Fighter uses his first action to UMD-dispel Wind Wall. Then he takes a full attack using a weapon that nulls concealment (or he just has an item that beats illusions).

Unless the Wizard casts Wind Wall every round the Fighter successfully dispels, he's almost certainly dead.


Plenty of spells are SR: No, so the Fighter can get a whole cartload of pendants and still die.
Name these awesome SR: No spells that a level 13 Wizard gets. Because unless they're save-or-dies, the Fighter one-rounds the Wizard the moment he's vulnerable, and he has plenty of health to live through a few orbs.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 10:17 AM
You know, I always thought that a simple anti-caster technique is to attack not the caster (as he's protected by layers upon layers of abjurations and Contingency) but his spell components' pouch: its AC is 10 + 2 (considering it Tiny, but it could well be Small) + 6 (assuming the caster has a Dex of 22 - but that can be lower) and it has 10 HP tops.


:smalleek:
apart that probably the pouch is a Hevard's handy haversack, if you really have the chance to hit a wizard, you'd better hit him hard, other then try a dubious tactic which leaves the wizard with a lot of potential (PS: if the DM is Evil, be sure that the wizard will have the eschew material feat)

mostlyharmful
2009-10-27, 10:17 AM
You know, I always thought that a simple anti-caster technique is to attack not the caster (as he's protected by layers upon layers of abjurations and Contingency) but his spell components' pouch: its AC is 10 + 2 (considering it Tiny, but it could well be Small) + 6 (assuming the caster has a Dex of 22 - but that can be lower) and it has 10 HP tops.

Assuming that a level 20 Fighter can score this hit and survive the AoO, the Wizard can say goodbye to A LOT of spells, for example, staying Core, there is a total of 35 level 7 spells: 14 of these have a material components, thus can't be used. And if the DM is really Evil he could decree that all the focii are now on the ground, and that half of them are broken.

Unfortunately most Wizards either take Eschew Materials if this is a commonly used trick or have fifteen component pouches. And even then Teleport's a Verbal only spell that extracts the wizard and keeps them in the game, retreat/rearm/retry is a wizards strength not an item dependant fighters.


Name these awesome SR: No spells that a level 13 Wizard gets. Because unless they're save-or-dies, the Fighter one-rounds the Wizard the moment he's vulnerable, and he has plenty of health to live through a few orbs.

Solid Fog? and with the Orb line you can crank them up to truely unstoppable levels of damage pretty easily if you focus on metareducers.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 10:22 AM
UMD is a cross-class skill, so Fighter has 11 ranks. +5 from 14+6 CHA, +3 for Skill Focus, and +10 from an item, that's +29, enough to activate every scroll. The key to winning with the Fighter is to win Initiative. With a Halfling DEX-based fighter, 28 pt buy:
Emulating a Stat of 19 requires a roll of 34, which is required to use a 9th level scroll. With a +29, the highest level scroll a UMD is guaranteed to activate from the Wisdom stat is a 5th level spell.

Further, as the DC for activating a scroll is based on the Caster Level, not the spell level (20+caster level of the spell being cast), the maximum caster level with a 100% activation would be Caster level 10 (or 5th level). A caster level 17 scroll would only have a 65% activation chance... Hardly a sure thing.

Further, saving throws are very static from scrolls. 10+ (spell level x 1.5). This is because they use the minimum stat required to cast. A 6th level spell? Assumes a stat of 16. Means the DC is 19. A level 13 wizard will be slinging spells with a much higher DC.


The key point is that anything the Wizard can do, the Fighter can also do from Scrolls, plus he can prepare a whole bunch of Cleric/Druid/Sorceror spells as well.Well, the drawback is requiring move actions to draw scrolls. Quick draw only applies to weapons, so it's no use here.


As mentioned previously in the other thread, Celerity requires an immediate action, and you can't take immediate actions while flat-footed, which you are until you take your first action. So losing initiative means no Celerity.Range and conditions of the fight matter a lot here. Losing initiative in an area where it's hard to immediately access the enemy means that there's little likelihood of the fighter getting an effective action off.


Also, note that Celerity is a 4th level spell, which means it can be duplicated with a Wand. The rules for activating a wand are the same time as it takes to cast the spell, so the Fighter presumably could also do Celerity.Yes, though he'd only get a single standard action, which, if a scroll is being used, would also require drawing the scroll, dropping the wand, and casting. Not likely to be as effective.


Finally, for Contingent spells, you need to carefully define what the contingency is. The Contingent spell acts in reaction to the trigger, which means the trigger completes first. If the Fighter lobs a Destruction spell from a scroll, the death/damage is applied before the contingent spell..Hard to predict. "if I'm attacked" would kinda be a dealbreaker, but "if someone else within 200 feet of me attempts to cast a spell", or "if I say 'goldfish' " would be fine (as speaking can be done out of turn).


A much better strategy is to Celerity for an extra action, Antimagic Field yourself, and then charge-grapple the mage. Grappled Mage in Antimagic Field = powerless.
If we're going for the Celerity?
The counter for that is flight... Orbs... Invisibility... There are a lot of counters, and many are common at the Wizard 13 level.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 10:23 AM
Right. That was what I was arguing all along. It's not feasible to win against someone more than 4 levels above you, because he has so much extra wealth. With wealth and good playing, he will win.

xcept that this 13° wizard is standard (overland flight, contingency and so on) and effectively playable as a character, your 20th lev fighter spends a terrifying amount of skillpoints and money specifically to face this wiz.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-27, 10:27 AM
An Archery Fighter uses his first action to UMD-dispel Wind Wall. Then he takes a full attack using a weapon that nulls concealment (or he just has an item that beats illusions).

Unless the Wizard casts Wind Wall every round the Fighter successfully dispels, he's almost certainly dead.

I suppose Mirror Image (or better yet, Improved Mirror Image) would help...

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 10:29 AM
A Level 20 Fighter can reliably pump out 100+ damage in a single full-round archery attack with minimal optimization. It's save to say he can kill a level 13 Wizard in a single round if optimized, provided only that he isn't defeated by a guaranteed defense such as Wind Wall.

An Archery Fighter uses his first action to UMD-dispel Wind Wall. Then he takes a full attack using a weapon that nulls concealment (or he just has an item that beats illusions).UMD is based on caster level. Most Scrolls are made at minimum. That's a +5. A wizard even moderately optimized, at level 13, can have a Caster level to dispel in the neighborhood of 18. With a UMD of 29, you're not getting above CL 10 with a 100% success chance, which leaves a low chance of getting the spell.


Unless the Wizard casts Wind Wall every round the Fighter successfully dispels, he's almost certainly dead.
Solid Fog. Wall of X. Etc.


Name these awesome SR: No spells that a level 13 Wizard gets. Because unless they're save-or-dies, the Fighter one-rounds the Wizard the moment he's vulnerable, and he has plenty of health to live through a few orbs.
Melf's Acid Arrow, Extended and Maximized (maximize from rod of metamagic) can be cast from a level 3 spell slot with good feat selection. At CL 14 (yes, it's possible), that's 10 rounds, 80 damage. Now 80 damage doesn't seem like too terribly much to the fighter... But what about to his bow? And if it's riverine, there's disintigrate for the autolose.

Combine with swift action Wings of Cover, and the fighter gets to shoot against a target with total cover.

A resilient Sphere, and he's shooting at a sphere of force.

A Fog cloud, and he better have a source of blindsense/blindsight.

I can go on, really.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 10:30 AM
You can use Celerity from the Wand easily by having the Quick Draw feat (duh!). A Wizard 16 would have MoP, true, but a Wizard 13 would not. And even if the wizard 16 has MoP, the fighter is still slightly favored, because of higher DEX.

You cannot use Quick Draw out of initiative order though; only precious few Free Actions (e.g. Speech) state that. So you need to end turn with the Wand in hand and begin the fight with the Wand in hand.


Craft Contingent Spell and Contingent spells are silly. You're triggering the Contingent teleport for when anyone in a 200 foot radius casts a spell? Hello, that'd be gone like, the minute you enter into a major city.

It was for this fight in particular. Wizard has met the Fighter before; his contingency whisked him away or he teleported away or found out that he was gonna get attacked by a high-level Fighter through Contact Other Plane or whatever. He prepares his Contingency to foil the Fighter's plan.


Even granting that you could do so feasibly, there's a much easier path for the Fighter:

Dimensional Anchor (standard action)
Celerity (immediate action)
Antimagic Field (standard action)
Mount charges and grapples (mount's full action)

Your stupid Dimensional Anchor already triggers the Contingency so the rest is completely useless. Also, you use Celerity. Wizard casts Celerity when you cast AMF. Now what do you do? You don't have immediate actions left.

As for Mounts, the thing is, they're so fragile that if you're keeping 'em around on those levels, you're just burning a lot of money on nothing 'cause they'll keep dying in level-appropriate encounters. That's why I usually ignore the option; nice and all, but not feasible in a real game. Though for this discussion, they are of course doable.


One thing about Contingencies I haven't brought up until now, but which pretty much solves this: You can tie Contingency to a free action that can be taken out of initiative order such as speech. This means you can say whatever and trigger your Contingency.

As such, it pretty much means you'll never be able to negate the Contingency; it's always going to go off and unless you can somehow figure out where the Wizard disappeared, that's the end of it.


The contingent spell resolves after the trigger, so the trigger is Dimensional Anchor on the wizard, which negates the teleport spell.

The trigger is using a spell. Activating a Wand is a standard action. When you take the action to activate the Wand, the Contingency triggers. Good bye.


Really, this is pointless without ground rules. All of this comes down to corner cases. How do the two meet? Who is the aggressor? What kinds of preparations have been done? How much effort has the Wizard put to not being hurt? How much money has the Fighter wasted on replicating Wizard's tricks? What is allowed?

Like, Wizard can go around all day under invisibility. This means the Fighter won't probably ever even become aware of his presence. We need a scenario where both of them engage, but in such a case surprise and such don't come into play. Who made the first move?

Wizard seems more logical since Scrying and Teleporting and such is much cheaper for a Wizard than a Fighter. If Wizard is on the offense and thus has prepared everything for the fight, chances are the Fighter is going to succumb, eventually if not immediately.

If we use sufficient level of brokenness, classes and levels no longer matter as Candle of Invocation generates infinite wealth, army, wishes and so on for everyone. This is too vague a question to answer in a satisfactory manner.

Cicciograna
2009-10-27, 10:33 AM
:smalleek:
apart that probably the pouch is a Hevard's handy haversack
Oh no, I don't think so.


Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action
I've never seen a Wizard wasting his move action to grab the components from his pouch.


Unfortunately most Wizards either take Eschew Materials if this is a commonly used trick or have fifteen component pouches.

A Human Wizard has 7 feats to take in his 20 levels. At level 13 he has 5 feats. What's the chance that one of those is Eschew Materials? With all the Spell Focus, Spell Penetration and the like... Even Logic Ninja disregards this feat... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)
A high number of component pouches could foil this technique, but as a DM I'd ask the character sheet of the Wizard and check one by one if he actually has them and if he counted the weight.


And even then Teleport's a Verbal only spell that extracts the wizard and keeps them in the game, retreat/rearm/retry is a wizards strength not an item dependant fighters.
I don't say that this trick would allow the Fighter to kill the Wizard, as the casters' supremacy is evident; but at least, if Wiz flees the Fighter has earned the day...

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 10:35 AM
Not to mention a wizard 13 can be immune to damage outside of core. Follow up with having AMF's prepared, on the odd chance a counterspell is needed, and bam.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 10:40 AM
A Human Wizard has 7 feats to take in his 20 levels. At level 13 he has 5 feats. What's the chance that one of those is Eschew Materials? With all the Spell Focus, Spell Penetration and the like... Even Logic Ninja disregards this feat... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)
A high number of component pouches could foil this technique, but as a DM I'd ask the character sheet of the Wizard and check one by one if he actually has them and if he counted the weight.


You're right on the haversack, that said...
If you, as a DM, starts doing such a thing, you can be DAMN SURE that my FIRST feat IS eschew material. :smallmad:


Now, I wonder if, without UMD, a 20th lev. fighter (with all splatbooks allowed) can kill a 13th lev. wizard (Core only).

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 10:45 AM
Do any wizards not buy multiple spell component pouches? I routinely get three. After all, the cost is trivial, and there's little reason not to keep extras stashed in your haversack.

You also need LOS/LOE to the spell component pouch to blast it. It can be done, sure, but it's hardly a foolproof tactic.

This is mostly interesting from a standpoint of how to make a fighter emulate a wizard.

Yukitsu
2009-10-27, 10:46 AM
But geez, you guys are really straw-manning here. Even with the improved Wizard 16, you haven't really convinced me that the Wizard has more than a 50% chance of winning, let alone a Wizard 13...

Well, the best way is some arena rounds. I'm willing to go up to that challenge, if you wouldn't mind building a fighter 20.

Core only? Everything in the SRD? The complete series? Pick your poison.

TelemontTanthul
2009-10-27, 10:47 AM
To me it really depends on the gear afforded to both combatants. We don't know what kind of magic items the fighter has, and that could really change how the fight goes.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 10:48 AM
You cannot use Quick Draw out of initiative order though; only precious few Free Actions (e.g. Speech) state that. So you need to end turn with the Wand in hand and begin the fight with the Wand in hand.

But... it's a free action, so when it's your turn (i.e. you win initiative), you can use your Quick Draw to grab your Wand of Celerity out of a Handy Haversack


It was for this fight in particular. Wizard has met the Fighter before; his contingency whisked him away or he teleported away or found out that he was gonna get attacked by a high-level Fighter through Contact Other Plane or whatever. He prepares his Contingency to foil the Fighter's plan.

OK, this is a stretch of the imagination that's really favoring the wizard, but fine, we'll work with this.


Your stupid Dimensional Anchor already triggers the Contingency so the rest is completely useless. Also, you use Celerity. Wizard casts Celerity when you cast AMF. Now what do you do? You don't have immediate actions left.

Your logic is no good. The Dimensional Anchor triggers the Contingency, so it goes off AFTER the Anchor hits.

And, FOR THE MILLIONTH time, you cannot take immediate actions (Celerity) when you're flat-footed, which you will be when you lose initiative. Please, read my previous posts!


As for Mounts, the thing is, they're so fragile that if you're keeping 'em around on those levels, you're just burning a lot of money on nothing 'cause they'll keep dying in level-appropriate encounters. That's why I usually ignore the option; nice and all, but not feasible in a real game. Though for this discussion, they are of course doable.

I beg to differ. At level 20, you could easily have a Young dragon mount. Ride check takes place of armor, and you can outfit your mount to have full plate and an animated shield as well...



One thing about Contingencies I haven't brought up until now, but which pretty much solves this: You can tie Contingency to a free action that can be taken out of initiative order such as speech. This means you can say whatever and trigger your Contingency.

This would require a DM ruling. If I were the DM, I'd rule that you can't speak in the surprise round if you're flat-footed because, well, you're surprised. If a bandit sneaks up behind me to attack, I don't get to scream before he attacks, if I don't know he's there.

In any case, this is a moot point, because the Fighter can also use Contingency spells that way, so it would boil down to another Initiative check on who gets to scream first.


As such, it pretty much means you'll never be able to negate the Contingency; it's always going to go off and unless you can somehow figure out where the Wizard disappeared, that's the end of it.

I'm tired of repeating myself. Contingency spell occurs after the trigger condition. (x100)


Really, this is pointless without ground rules. All of this comes down to corner cases. How do the two meet? Who is the aggressor? What kinds of preparations have been done? How much effort has the Wizard put to not being hurt? How much money has the Fighter wasted on replicating Wizard's tricks? What is allowed?

The fighter has 650,000 gp more than the wizard.


Like, Wizard can go around all day under invisibility. This means the Fighter won't probably ever even become aware of his presence. We need a scenario where both of them engage, but in such a case surprise and such don't come into play. Who made the first move?

Permanency and See Invisibility can both be had via Scrolls.


Wizard seems more logical since Scrying and Teleporting and such is much cheaper for a Wizard than a Fighter. If Wizard is on the offense and thus has prepared everything for the fight, chances are the Fighter is going to succumb, eventually if not immediately.

If we use sufficient level of brokenness, classes and levels no longer matter as Candle of Invocation generates infinite wealth, army, wishes and so on for everyone. This is too vague a question to answer in a satisfactory manner.

I'm tired of arguing with you. You can always claim that the Fighter "wouldn't" do something because it's expensive, and then exploit it. And at the same time you're saying the Wizard would do something expensive (Craft a Contingent Spell)/unlikely(trigger a Teleport spell to be based on a close spellcasting) because he knows what he's up against.

And, for the last time, the contingent spell occurs after the trigger spell hits. No if, ands, or buts.

oxinabox
2009-10-27, 10:48 AM
There is alway the problem of his poor poor will save though.

oxybe
2009-10-27, 10:49 AM
i'm guessing that i'm not the only one here amused by the fact that the only way the fighter can win is by emulating a higher level wizard?

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 10:53 AM
No, plenty of us are amused by that. =)

Seriously, lets do some duels. Some of us whip up wizards, some whip up fighters. It's likely to be more productive than more "well I would do this". Any volunteers?

Ernir
2009-10-27, 10:55 AM
Does anyone want to actually try this? Let's take this one to the parking lot. :smallamused:

EDIT: Damn ninjas.

I'm making a "recruitment" thread as we speak.

jseah
2009-10-27, 11:00 AM
How do you intend to counter the "Contact Other Plane has told the wizard everything he needs to know about killing you two days ago" problem?
- Note that if the wizard does it right, divination immunity doesn't stop it.

Unless you don't allow that of course. I can see disallowing that tactic as perfectly reasonable but then you do admit that even a 9th level wizard can't be killed. (whether he can kill a 20th level fighter is another matter, if he has meta-reducers, then it's easy of course. )

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:04 AM
No, plenty of us are amused by that. =)

Seriously, lets do some duels. Some of us whip up wizards, some whip up fighters. It's likely to be more productive than more "well I would do this". Any volunteers?

Sure, let's do it. My gear: 2 Scrolls of Wish (28.8k x2), 1 Scroll of Moment of Prescience (3k), 1 Scroll of Implosion (3.8k), 1 Wand of Celerity. Use a Scroll of Wish beforehand to let yourself go first, or, barring that, give yourself a +40 to next Initiative roll. Moment of Prescience is also activated before the fight. That gives me a +60 to Init, on top of everything else, so I go first. Use my Wand of Celerity, use extra standard action to use second scroll of Wish: Impose a -40 to the next save by opponent. Last standard action: Read scroll of Implosion.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:05 AM
But... it's a free action, so when it's your turn (i.e. you win initiative), you can use your Quick Draw to grab your Wand of Celerity out of a Handy Haversack
No. It's not. Quickdraw grants you the ability to draw weapons as free items. Wands are not weapons.

Let's show it as this. Quick draw is "A".
Wands are "B".
Weapons are "Y"

A = Y
B != Y

Thus:

B != A

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 11:06 AM
But... it's a free action, so when it's your turn (i.e. you win initiative), you can use your Quick Draw to grab your Wand of Celerity out of a Handy Haversack

This would require a DM ruling. If I were the DM, I'd rule that you can't speak in the surprise round if you're flat-footed because, well, you're surprised. If a bandit sneaks up behind me to attack, I don't get to scream before he attacks, if I don't know he's there.


I don't agree on the quick draw part. As noted by someone else, retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, and i doubt you can apply quick draw to that (this not counting that a wand is definitely not a weapon).

But if helps, if I were the DM, I'd rule the same as you, regarding speaking in the surprise round...

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:07 AM
Sure, let's do it. My gear: 2 Scrolls of Wish (28.8k x2), 1 Scroll of Moment of Prescience (3k), 1 Scroll of Implosion (3.8k), 1 Wand of Celerity. Use a Scroll of Wish beforehand to let yourself go first, or, barring that, give yourself a +40 to next Initiative roll. Moment of Prescience is also activated before the fight. That gives me a +60 to Init, on top of everything else, so I go first. Use my Wand of Celerity, use extra standard action to use second scroll of Wish: Impose a -40 to the next save by opponent. Last standard action: Read scroll of Implosion.

-40 is not an acceptable use of wish. It's not listed, and requires GM adjudication.

Let's say the wizard has a scroll of Foresight (used before the fight).

Wizard counters the implosion with Wings of Cover.

Your initiative nova strike is gone.

As are all the items.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 11:07 AM
Your logic is no good. The Dimensional Anchor triggers the Contingency, so it goes off AFTER the Anchor hits.

And, FOR THE MILLIONTH time, you cannot take immediate actions (Celerity) when you're flat-footed, which you will be when you lose initiative. Please, read my previous posts!

There are ways past that. Cunning legacy weapon, for one. Honestly, there are so many things wrong with the AMF plan it's not worth even considering.


I beg to differ. At level 20, you could easily have a Young dragon mount. Ride check takes place of armor, and you can outfit your mount to have full plate and an animated shield as well...

And when an Ancient Black breaths on you, it's quite possibly dead. When someone casts one of the Blasphemy-line of spells, it's dead. Also, Dragon mounts have their own rules; you cannot just buy one.


This would require a DM ruling. If I were the DM, I'd rule that you can't speak in the surprise round if you're flat-footed because, well, you're surprised. If a bandit sneaks up behind me to attack, I don't get to scream before he attacks, if I don't know he's there.

There are a few ways to get it to work anyways. One is to use Nerveskitter while in initiative. That specifically can be cast while flat-footed and since you've taken an action, you may now take free actions. Also, Cunning Legacy Weapon obviously works.


In any case, this is a moot point, because the Fighter can also use Contingency spells that way, so it would boil down to another Initiative check on who gets to scream first.

Depends on the Contingency used. With Teleport Contingencies, it hardly matters since it comes down to a draw either way.


I'm tired of repeating myself. Contingency spell occurs after the trigger condition. (x100)

Yes, and there are about hundred phases in every action each of which can be the trigger condition. What is your point?


The fighter has 650,000 gp more than the wizard.

So? That's a finite amount of money.


Permanency and See Invisibility can both be had via Scrolls.

Sure, it's possible, but not automatic.


I'm tired of arguing with you. You can always claim that the Fighter "wouldn't" do something because it's expensive, and then exploit it. And at the same time you're saying the Wizard would do something expensive (Craft a Contingent Spell)/unlikely(trigger a Teleport spell to be based on a close spellcasting) because he knows what he's up against.

Craft Contingent Spell isn't specifically geared for this fight; if it's allowed, there's little reason not to ensure that you aren't going to die ever, or to generate the ability to take 13 standard actions at will as a fallback. And the Teleport Contingency was specifically brought up as something you could, for example, do after the first fight ended inconclusively.

On the other hand, basically everything you're suggesting for this Fighter is something you wouldn't be doing if you weren't specifically preparing for a fight with a Wizard and only need to fight that one fight in your entire adventuring career. The Fighter cannot keep up with such expenses for his entire career. That said, I never said the cost is an obstacle, I'm just pointing out that the Fighter is using finite resources while the Wizard is using infinite resources so every time the fight


And, for the last time, the contingent spell occurs after the trigger spell hits. No if, ands, or buts.

That has never been the question.


Again, the real issue is that the fight isn't defined in any way. There are no limitations, no ground rules. Of course it's just going to be circles of rules discussion since the fight cannot happen without a basis.

Radiun
2009-10-27, 11:07 AM
No. It's not. Quickdraw grants you the ability to draw weapons as free items. Wands are not weapons.

Let's show it as this. Quick draw is "A".
Wands are "B".
Weapons are "Y"

A = Y
B != Y

Thus:

B != A

I would argue that it depends how that character stores the wands.
Wands in holsters != wands in a backpack.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 11:07 AM
I think I'll do fighter, since it'll be more challenging. I do agree that wands are not weapons, though.

We need to do some basic ground rules...like, is teleporting out allowed?

Kurald Galain
2009-10-27, 11:07 AM
Use a Scroll of Wish beforehand to let yourself go first, or, barring that, give yourself a +40 to next Initiative roll.
That's not on the List of Approved Wishes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Wish.htm), though.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:08 AM
No. It's not. Quickdraw grants you the ability to draw weapons as free items. Wands are not weapons.

Let's show it as this. Quick draw is "A".
Wands are "B".
Weapons are "Y"

A = Y
B != Y

Thus:

B != A

This is silly rules-lawyering, since anywhere you can put a weapon, you could put a wand. Any reasonable DM would allow the wand to count as a "weapon." But even if I get stuck with you as the DM, I'll just have the wand in one hand at all times.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:08 AM
I don't agree on the quick draw part. As noted by someone else, retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, and i doubt you can apply quick draw to that (this not counting that a wand is definitely not a weapon).

But if helps, if I were the DM, I'd rule the same as you, regarding speaking in the surprise round...

Free action (speak) states that it can be taken out of initiative order.
The Flat-footed condition does not preclude the ability to take free actions.
It does, prevent immediate actions, however.

Thus, we can conclude that any DM ruling that speaking is not allowed during the surprise round? Is against RAW.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:10 AM
This is silly rules-lawyering, since anywhere you can put a weapon, you could put a wand. Any reasonable DM would allow the wand to count as a "weapon." But even if I get stuck with you as the DM, I'll just have the wand in one hand at all times.

This is the rules. Don't like them?

Go play cowboys and indians, and argue with your friends over who hit whom.

Quick draw only applies to weapons.

Wands are not weapons.

No amount of crying foul will change the RAW.
It disagrees with you on this point.

You are wrong.

However it would be ruled in a game is irrelevant. In games without an established DM, there is RAW.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 11:10 AM
You can speak during the surprise round, yes. However, responding to an attack than you are unaware of is not possible. In short, it'd be blatant metagaming by any definition of the word.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:12 AM
-40 is not an acceptable use of wish. It's not listed, and requires GM adjudication.

Let's say the wizard has a scroll of Foresight (used before the fight).

Wizard counters the implosion with Wings of Cover.

Your initiative nova strike is gone.

As are all the items.

Fine, -20 then? No, how about -10? Limited wish allows you to impose a -7, so I think a -10 is justified at the minimum. I could always Time Stop and stack a few of those.

I thought we were sticking to core? No matter. The wizard can't use a Scroll of Foresight anyway, since he's only lvl 13, and I'm assuming he's not doing the same UMD trick. Besides, Wings of Cover is a Sorc only spell.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:12 AM
You can speak during the surprise round, yes. However, responding to an attack than you are unaware of is not possible. In short, it'd be blatant metagaming by any definition of the word.

Yes. This is true. If you were unaware of the attack (i.e. unable to detect by any means), then this would apply.

As most senses are reactive, it's not that easy.

Cyclocone
2009-10-27, 11:13 AM
Feh, my Joker Commoner can defeat all your Wizards and Fighters.
He's a Commoner 20, and he's been optimized to defeat Monks by spending his WBL on Candles of Invocation.



Stuff about components

You are aware of the rather large number of spells that lack material components?
You know, stuff like Dominate Person, Solipsism etc.
Also, the aforementioned Summon Components spell takes care off it, so does Whispercast.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:13 AM
Free action (speak) states that it can be taken out of initiative order.
The Flat-footed condition does not preclude the ability to take free actions.
It does, prevent immediate actions, however.

Thus, we can conclude that any DM ruling that speaking is not allowed during the surprise round? Is against RAW.

Right, I agree. So when the Fighter also uses his contingency spell triggered by a command word, which action takes place first? This seems like an Initiative check to me.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:14 AM
I think I'll do fighter, since it'll be more challenging. I do agree that wands are not weapons, though.

We need to do some basic ground rules...like, is teleporting out allowed?

I'd be happy to adjudicate this, by RAW.

If I run the reffing, then teleporting out will be considered retreat. Alternate planes, however, will not. This is because many spells, such as blink, do so.

Others, such as rope trick, have vulnerabilities (known point of exit).

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:15 AM
This is the rules. Don't like them?

Go play cowboys and indians, and argue with your friends over who hit whom.

Quick draw only applies to weapons.

Wands are not weapons.

No amount of crying foul will change the RAW.
It disagrees with you on this point.

You are wrong.

However it would be ruled in a game is irrelevant. In games without an established DM, there is RAW.

Wow, you really don't like to read the whole post, even if it's only 3 sentences. Let me repeat: I'll just have the wand in hand at all times.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:15 AM
Right, I agree. So when the Fighter also uses his contingency spell triggered by a command word, which action takes place first? This seems like an Initiative check to me.

Wrong. Initiative checks are used for initiative. That's it.

Contingencies are resolved in the order they occur.

I speak, then you do? My contingency activates, then yours does.

You speak first? Your contingency is first.


Wow, you really don't like to read the whole post, even if it's only 3 sentences. Let me repeat: I'll just have the wand in hand at all times.

So, then.... No two handed weapons?

No unrolling scrolls to read them?
No scrolls with somatic elements?

Wow. At all times is pretty restrictive.

Cyclocone
2009-10-27, 11:16 AM
I thought we were sticking to core? No matter. The wizard can't use a Scroll of Foresight anyway, since he's only lvl 13, and I'm assuming he's not doing the same UMD trick.

Ehh, yes he can. It's a DC 18 CL check. A level 8 Wizard with Arcane Mastery can auto-make it.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:16 AM
I'd be happy to adjudicate this, by RAW.

If I run the reffing, then teleporting out will be considered retreat. Alternate planes, however, will not. This is because many spells, such as blink, do so.

Others, such as rope trick, have vulnerabilities (known point of exit).

Have a DM who thinks that a Wizard 13 can cast Foresight AND Wings of Cover? I think not.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 11:19 AM
Again, the real issue is that the fight isn't defined in any way. There are no limitations, no ground rules. Of course it's just going to be circles of rules discussion since the fight cannot happen without a basis.

I would like no UMD, a 20th lev. fighter (with all splatbooks allowed) against a 13th lev. wizard (Core only).
If you prefere, UMD is OK, but both wiz. and fighter have access to all splatbooks.
The wizard is unaware of his enemy... as is the fighter. Htey weren't on chase, they met casually in the market square and recognise each other (at a distance of 30 yards?), so, no surprise round but they go with initiative.


The wizard can't use a Scroll of Foresight anyway, since he's only lvl 13, and I'm assuming he's not doing the same UMD trick.

...now a wiz. needs UMD to use a scroll of a wizard's spell?

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:19 AM
Wrong. Initiative checks are used for initiative. That's it.

Contingencies are resolved in the order they occur.

I speak, then you do? My contingency activates, then yours does.

You speak first? Your contingency is first.



So, then.... No two handed weapons?

No unrolling scrolls to read them?
No scrolls with somatic elements?

Wow. At all times is pretty restrictive.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell

Activating the scroll requires no material components or focus. What a great DM!!

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:20 AM
Have a DM who thinks that a Wizard 13 can cast Foresight AND Wings of Cover? I think not.

Same way a fighter can, when he uses 2 spells prebattle.

response was to:

Use a Scroll of Wish beforehand to let yourself go first, or, barring that, give yourself a +40 to next Initiative roll. Moment of Prescience is also activated before the fight. That gives me a +60 to Init, on top of everything else, so I go first. Use my Wand of Celerity, use extra standard action to use second scroll of Wish: Impose a -40 to the next save by opponent. Last standard action: Read scroll of Implosion.

So, scroll of wish, moment of prescience, both before fight?

I think the wizard has equal time. That would include a scroll of foresight... Pre fight.

Fair's fair, and they'd be judged by equal terms, decided by the combatants.

If the wizard doesn't get precasting?

Then neither can the fighter pull a wishspam prebattle.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:21 AM
Same way a fighter can, when he uses 2 spells prebattle.

response was to:

So, scroll of wish, moment of prescience, both before fight?

I think the wizard has equal time. That would include a scroll of foresight... Pre fight.

Fair's fair, and they'd be judged by equal terms, decided by the combatants.

If the wizard doesn't get precasting?

Then neither can the fighter pull a wishspam prebattle.

You keep ignoring my most salient points. You don't get access to Wings of Cover, so all this is moot.

Hawk7915
2009-10-27, 11:22 AM
I think it's pretty clear that the best a fighter can hope for against wizard >9 is to stalemate things so the wizard overland flight/teleport/phantom steeds away and scry/die's the fighter in a few days. I think the fighter has a better than fair chance of stalemating a core only wizard for a few times, but eventually the scrolls run out, and the fighter loses.

That being said at a certain point, any "Wizard versus X" is a bit like a bunch of first graders playing make believe.

"My fighter hits your wizard with his sword!"

"Nuh uh, my wizard is flying!"

"Well, my fighter is also flying, thanks to his dragon mount! RAWR!"

"My wizard uses his contingency: dragons that go RAWR to teleport 1000' away!"

"Uh...wha? Oh, right, well, my fighter uses a Wand of Celerity to act first and cast dimensional anchor!"

"My wizard...also has a contingency against fighters with wands of celerity. He uses that to cast Time Stop from a scroll."


"You can't do that! That's cheating! You can't take actions like that if I won initiative, which I totally did thanks to these 20 obscure feats and items!"

"Well, I have the Cunning Legacy Weapon, so actually"...

I'll be checking the versus thread and offering to make a fighter just to see if I can get the stalemate later.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:22 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell

Activating the scroll requires no material components or focus. What a great DM!!

Material Components are not Somatic Components.

There are 3 major kinds of components.

Material.
Somatic.
Verbal.

If you don't need Material, it does NOT obviate the need for Somatic.

Keep up with the sarcasm though. It's really showing everyone who knows what.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:24 AM
You keep ignoring my most salient points. You don't get access to Wings of Cover, so all this is moot.

Ah. You're saying core only.

There are answers to that too, but that is not a restriction originally set by the OP, but instead artificially introduced later.

Tanaric
2009-10-27, 11:24 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell

Activating the scroll requires no material components or focus. What a great DM!!

*blink*

Somatic. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/somatic?r=75)

Also, a bit too much emotional investment, perhaps?

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:25 AM
Ah. You're saying core only.

There are answers to that too, but that is not a restriction originally set by the OP, but instead artificially introduced later.

Even if you allow Races of the Dragon, it's pretty clearly said those are Sorc only spells...

Kurald Galain
2009-10-27, 11:25 AM
That being said at a certain point, any "Wizard versus X" is a bit like a bunch of first graders playing make believe.

In other news, I've got damage resistance 500 / bilver.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:26 AM
Material Components are not Somatic Components.

There are 3 major kinds of components.

Material.
Somatic.
Verbal.

If you don't need Material, it does NOT obviate the need for Somatic.

Keep up with the sarcasm though. It's really showing everyone who knows what.

I know! I'll drop the Wand after I use it as a Free action with my Quick Draw! Or is that also not allowed because it's not a weapon?

Ernir
2009-10-27, 11:27 AM
The parking lot is up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7200468#post7200468) Come and show us what you are made of.

imperialspectre
2009-10-27, 11:28 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell

Activating the scroll requires no material components or focus. What a great DM!!

Aside from your sarcasm being uncalled for, you're missing the fact that verbal and somatic components are distinct from material components and foci, both of which have their cost accounted for in the cost of the scroll. You still need to have a hand free to draw the scroll, and the fact that scrolls have ASF strongly suggests that you still need the somatic component to activate the scroll (since that's what triggers ASF on arcane casters).

Check your facts before you attack other people, please.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 11:28 AM
Ah. You're saying core only.

There are answers to that too, but that is not a restriction originally set by the OP, but instead artificially introduced later.


If I can make some precisation...
I would like no UMD, a 20th lev. fighter (with all splatbooks allowed) against a 13th lev. wizard (Core only).
If you prefere, UMD is OK, but both wiz. and fighter have access to all splatbooks.
The wizard is unaware of his enemy... as is the fighter. They weren't chasing each other, they met casually in the market square and recognise each other (at a distance of 30 yards?), so, no surprise round or buffing (xcept for looong duration spells, as Overland flight), but they go with initiative.


The parking lot is up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7200468#post7200468) Come and show us what you are made of.

maybe I'm too late... :smallsmile:

Tanaric
2009-10-27, 11:28 AM
I know! I'll drop the Wand after I use it as a Free action with my Quick Draw! Or is that also not allowed because it's not a weapon?

Spot on, even with the dripping sarcasm.

Longswords, greataxes, maces, et cetera are weapons. Wands aren't. Saying they are is a houserule on the DMs part.

Unless I can poke someone in the eye with one for 1d2 damage?

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:29 AM
Even if you allow Races of the Dragon, it's pretty clearly said those are Sorc only spells...

Still possible, just requires a bit more work.

I can get 9th level spells outside of core at about level 10. It's really not hard to pull a sorceror spell off the class list.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:30 AM
Spot on, even with the dripping sarcasm.

Longswords, greataxes, maces, et cetera are weapons. Wands aren't. Saying they are is a houserule on the DMs part.

Unless I can poke someone in the eye with one for 1d2 damage?

Epic fail on Sense Motive check. Dropping an item is a free action regardless of the item.

Tanaric
2009-10-27, 11:32 AM
Epic fail on Sense Motive check. Dropping an item is a free action regardless of the item.

More like an epic fail on determining sentence structure. It came off as you sarcastically saying you could activate a wand as a free action with Quick Draw if a wand was a weapon.

*shrug*

As an aside, are you planning on toeing the line of personal attacks on everyone, or just those who said wands weren't weapons? Inquiring minds want to know.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:33 AM
Still possible, just requires a bit more work.

I can get 9th level spells outside of core at about level 10. It's really not hard to pull a sorceror spell off the class list.

Sure, there are ways to get expanded knowledge in Complete Mage, but we're assuming Wizard 13 here...

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:33 AM
I know! I'll drop the Wand after I use it as a Free action with my Quick Draw! Or is that also not allowed because it's not a weapon?

Dropping the wand as a free action isn't legal, as dropping items cannot be done outside of initiative order, and Celerity is not an initiative modifying action. You're not taking your turn. You're taking a standard action. One.

That's not Quickdraw the wand, use it, drop it.

That's 3 actions. 2 free actions and a standard.

The spell doesn't give you that, and the rules don't allow for most free actions (exception: Speaking) outside of initiative.

Next bit of sarcasm I can shoot down with RAW?

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:36 AM
Dropping the wand as a free action isn't legal, as dropping items cannot be done outside of initiative order, and Celerity is not an initiative modifying action. You're not taking your turn. You're taking a standard action. One.

That's not Quickdraw the wand, use it, drop it.

That's 3 actions. 2 free actions and a standard.

The spell doesn't give you that, and the rules don't allow for most free actions (exception: Speaking) outside of initiative.

Next bit of sarcasm I can shoot down with RAW?

I am acting in my initiative order. Wand is on hand at all times before combat starts. I use wand on my turn after winning initiative, and then drop it.

Please show me how you can use Wings of Cover.

Akal Saris
2009-10-27, 11:43 AM
I actually think the vast majority of wizard 13's would get completely slaughtered by the majority of fighter 20's, by the way - even without a cohort or UMD. It's just a function of hit points, saves, standard wealth, and common sense. Not that the fighter itself is anything worthwhile - but 7 extra levels of any PC class is.

At best, most wizard 13's will probably have teleport (possibly even contingent teleport, if the PC isn't one of the vast majority who banned evocation) or planeshift prepared (or force cage, solid fog, etc) and will be able to escape the fighter - probably with every intention to avoid him thereafter.

It's only the insane CO-imagination wizards with initiate of mystra and mithril cone hats and celerity+immunity to daze and crap that are going to win. But just about nobody ever plays those, just as nobody plays a UMD-abusing fighter, so it's pointless.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:44 AM
I am acting in my initiative order. Wand is on hand at all times before combat starts. I use wand on my turn after winning initiative, and then drop it.

Please show me how you can use Wings of Cover.

There are any of about a dozen ways, including the one you use.

It's a 2nd level spell.

Level 13 Wizard? How to get wings of cover, outside of core? Several ways. Here's the first that comes to mind.

Take a feat to get UMD as a class skill. Noncore examples exist.

16 ranks, Cha of 14, UMD skill item, Circlet of Persuasion, Skill Focus (UMD).

That's a +26. All you need is a 23 to activate wings of cover from a scroll, 20 from a wand.

So that means that I can just take the wand, drop 2 points of charisma, and the skill focus.

Next?

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-27, 11:46 AM
Won't wizards usually have more initiative? They only have to focus on Intelligence for their primary roles, so they can put the rest in dex (since they don't wear much armor either). They get all the same initiative increasing feats. Plus, if they have a weapon for 'just in case', its likely to be able to focus all its +X powers into things like Initiative boosting.

Finally, hummingbird familiar adds +2 initiative that the fighter will never get.

So if it comes down to an initiative war, the Wizard, even without Celerity, will likely win.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:51 AM
There are any of about a dozen ways, including the one you use.

It's a 2nd level spell.

Level 13 Wizard? How to get wings of cover, outside of core? Several ways. Here's the first that comes to mind.

Take this feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#skillKnowledge) for UMD.

16 ranks, Cha of 14, UMD skill item, Circlet of Persuasion, Skill Focus (UMD).

That's a +26. All you need is a 23 to activate wings of cover from a scroll, 20 from a wand.

So that means that I can just take the wand, drop 2 points of charisma, and the skill focus.

Next?

Didn't the OP expressly forbid the feat to treat cross-class skills as class skills?

In any case, you have the same problem as I do then, in having to have the wand on hand at all times? OK, I guess I'll have to target that wand as my first action, and since that's not a danger on you, Foresight doesn't activate. Then you can eat the implosion, without the Wings of Cover.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:52 AM
Won't wizards usually have more initiative? They only have to focus on Intelligence for their primary roles, so they can put the rest in dex (since they don't wear much armor either). They get all the same initiative increasing feats. Plus, if they have a weapon for 'just in case', its likely to be able to focus all its +X powers into things like Initiative boosting.

Finally, hummingbird familiar adds +2 initiative that the fighter will never get.

So if it comes down to an initiative war, the Wizard, even without Celerity, will likely win.

The Hummingbird familiar is from Dragon magazine, which usually isn't allowed. The fighter's advantage is having vastly more wealth by being higher level, so he can buy a Tome of DEX +6 and a Scroll of Moment of Prescience and a Scroll of Wish, all to boost his initiative.

ericgrau
2009-10-27, 11:58 AM
Magic items. Fighter saves, wizard dies in one round even from damage alone, utility stuff like flight again covered with gear. Cheesy splatbook tricks don't count, that only shows there's a problem with allowing the trick. Nor does immunity to situation X when he can't possibly afford immunity to everything at once, or even most things at once. This is what I call "You can't ban evocation and cast wind wall as an immediate action whenever you see an archer" fallacy. Sorry, I'm working on a shorter name. But hey, in theoretical forums anything can happen.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:58 AM
Didn't the OP expressly forbid the feat to treat cross-class skills as class skills?

In any case, you have the same problem as I do then, in having to have the wand on hand at all times? OK, I guess I'll have to target that wand as my first action, and since that's not a danger on you, Foresight doesn't activate. Then you can eat the implosion, without the Wings of Cover.

Easier for a wizard. I have all my hands open, unless I choose to metamagic something with a rod. Even so, I can still spell. Moreover, since I'm not trying to blast 9th level spells out of scrolls, I don't need "material" (read: somatic) components at all. 1 feat, and all my spells are still spell for free. Look, ma, no hands.

Outside of core, there's celerity to the wand targeting, followed by wall of force, say.

There's too many options to decide it based on simple "nuh uh, I win".

Even if cross/noncross aren't in, there's still 8 ranks umd, , +2 cha, +3 Circlet, +3 skill focus, +2 magical aptitude, +2 UMD skill item. +20.

Saying it can't be done outside of core is foolish. There's always a way.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 11:59 AM
The Hummingbird familiar is from Dragon magazine, which usually isn't allowed. The fighter's advantage is having vastly more wealth by being higher level, so he can buy a Tome of DEX +6 and a Scroll of Moment of Prescience and a Scroll of Wish, all to boost his initiative.

Agree on the hummingbird.
I think the wizard can easily have a +8 initiative (not optimized at all), so your fighter can be better than him, thanx to his WBL (+12 maximum, I think), but don't count on pre-buffing with scrolls. As I've said a few posts before, they both meet unaware and recognise each other in the same moment.

(PS: See? the piranhas have come... :smallcool:)

Megaduck
2009-10-27, 12:06 PM
Fighter wins, though it comes down to initiative.

Round one. Wizard begins to cast a spell. Fighter hits him with a bag of pepper. Spell casting is disrupted for 1d4 turns if the wizard fails the con check. (You could also hit him with a knife to disrupt that spell but that doesn't disrupt later spell casting.)

That's just with commoners equipment. A 20th level fighter should also have access to itching powder, sneeze dust, insect sphere ect. All great ways to shut a spell caster down.

Wizards... really aren't the be all end all most people here seem to think they are. You're all assuming that the wizard has infinite time to self buff and the fighter isn't doing anything back.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 12:08 PM
Easier for a wizard. I have all my hands open.

Outside of core, there's celerity to the wand targeting, followed by wall of force, say.

There's too many options to decide it based on simple "nuh uh, I win".

Even if cross/noncross aren't in, there's still 8 ranks umd, , +2 cha, +3 Circlet, +3 skill focus, +2 magical aptitude, +2 UMD skill item. +20.

Saying it can't be done outside of core is foolish. There's always a way.

Would a feat-starved wizard really use two feats on Skill Focus and Magical aptitude?

I assume you meant to say a Contingency on the wand targeting, which I would like to counter, yet once again, with the fact that the contingent spell goes off AFTER the trigger. So your wand is blown up. You may be able to raise a Wall of Force afterwards, but that opens another can of worms on what to do next. I suppose I could just use a Scroll of Disjunction to get rid of all your contingent spells and magic, and make this into an attrition battle.

But I'm beyond tired at this point, so I will say good night, and no offense to anyone... I'm simply trying to forward the notion that gold can make up for a lot of weakness.

lsfreak
2009-10-27, 12:15 PM
I assume you meant to say a Contingency on the wand targeting, which I would like to counter, yet once again, with the fact that the contingent spell goes off AFTER the trigger.

Set trigger to, "someone begins casting" rather than "someone casts." Bam.
Or, again, talking out of turn is perfectly legal. Even if you ignore RAW and introduce logic into not being able to speak during a surprise round, if neither side has surprise it's perfectly legal.

Schylerwalker
2009-10-27, 12:15 PM
I present an elegant, rather cheap, and effective method for our 20th level fighter to utterly pound the snot out of the 13th level wizard. Allow me to present a simple, incredibly effective combination for our fighter.

Masterwork potion belt - Allows you to draw a potion as a free action.
Potion of true strike - Gives you a +20 insight bonus to your next attack roll (Lasts one turn)
Iron Bands of Bilarro! - Simply one of the coolest items ever, you need a touch attack to hit your opponent with this small, rusty iron ball. It expands as it flies through the air, soon wrapping around the opponent (With a successful touch attack). A DC 30 Strength check (Which destroys the item) or a DC 30 Escape Artist check allows the captured individual to escape.

The wizard will be unable to cast spells that require somatic components (All the truly excellent ones do), unless he has the Still Spell feat and decided to waste his higher level spell slots on the thing. Or if he has Arcane Thesis. And he could barely qualify for Sudden Quicken Spell, I believe.

1st Turn:
Free action - Draw potion.
Move action - Drink potion.
Standard action - Fling iron bands.

2nd Turn:
Free action - Draw potion.
Move action - Move into melee.
Standard action - Drink potion.

3rd Turn:
Full round action - Full attack with +5 vorpal falchion. Improved Critical, of course.

Provided that the wizard isn't completely munchkinned out, this should work. Especially if the fighter has all of the Mage Slayer feats, like Pierce Magical Protection. So long greater mage armor, shield, and displacement!

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 12:15 PM
Would a feat-starved wizard really use two feats on Skill Focus and Magical aptitude?

I assume you meant to say a Contingency on the wand targeting, which I would like to counter, yet once again, with the fact that the contingent spell goes off AFTER the trigger. So your wand is blown up. You may be able to raise a Wall of Force afterwards, but that opens another can of worms on what to do next. I suppose I could just use a Scroll of Disjunction to get rid of all your contingent spells and magic, and make this into an attrition battle.

But I'm beyond tired at this point, so I will say good night, and no offense to anyone... I'm simply trying to forward the notion that gold can make up for a lot of weakness.

Depends on the trigger. If the trigger is when someone with a wand attempts to activate, then it goes off on the activation, not on the resolution.

Stating triggers gets to be an even bigger can of worms. Moreso than even a fighter with scrolls of disjunction, moment of prescience, multiple wishes, and wands...

Really... The tactic you suggest is more suited to a rogue. Trying to use cross class skills to demonstrate your point is like relying on the base attack of the wizard to demonstrate martial prowess.

Though, outside of core, a wizard can read any sor/wiz scroll a fighter can, and more.

You still haven't shown me how you're getting the +36 UMD check you need to automatically activate 9th level spells from scrolls...

Or the +33 you need to emulate a 19 stat.

Assuming you're in core, that's quite the feat.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 12:19 PM
I present an elegant, rather cheap, and effective method for our 20th level fighter to utterly pound the snot out of the 13th level wizard. Allow me to present a simple, incredibly effective combination for our fighter.

Masterwork potion belt - Allows you to draw a potion as a free action.
Potion of true strike - Gives you a +20 insight bonus to your next attack roll (Lasts one turn)
Iron Bands of Bilarro! - Simply one of the coolest items every, you need a touch attack to hit your opponent with this small, rusty iron ball. It expands as it flies through the air, soon wrapping around the opponent (With a successful touch attack). A DC 30 Strength check (Which destroys the item) or a DC 30 Escape Artist check allows the captured individual to escape.

The wizard will be unable to cast spells that require somatic components (All the truly excellent ones do), unless he has the Still Spell feat and decided to waste his higher level spell slots on the thing. Or if he has Arcane Thesis. And he could barely qualify for Sudden Quicken Spell, I believe.

1st Turn:
Free action - Draw potion.
Move action - Drink potion.
Standard action - Fling iron bands.

2nd Turn:
Free action - Draw potion.
Move action - Move into melee.
Standard action - Drink potion.

3rd Turn:
Full round action - Full attack with +5 vorpal falchion. Improved Critical, over course.

Provided that the wizard isn't completely munchkinned out, this should work. Especially if the fighter has all of the Mage Slayer feats, like Pierce Magical Protection. So long greater mage armor, shield, and displacement!

Sigh.

Blink.
Improved Blink.
Ghostform.
Wall of X.
Mirror image.

So much for iron bands.

Now, how about the wizard.

Quickened True strike + Amber sarcophagus.

Build an onset delay no save instant death trap around you in the 13 days you're totally unable to do anything. Onset delay 5 rounds.

Cast spells to preclude dimensional travel.
Set the onset on the initiative count you go on, 5 rounds before it expires.

Translation: as soon as it ends, you're dead.

There's also tricks with extraordinary spell aim + Dictum and word of chaos... and about a dozen other tricks.

It can't be decided with words.

tyckspoon
2009-10-27, 12:20 PM
Provided that the wizard isn't completely munchkinned out, this should work. Especially if the fighter has all of the Mage Slayer feats, like Pierce Magical Protection. So long greater mage armor, shield, and displacement!

Munchkinned out? Dimension Door, man. 4th level, Verbal-only teleport, no modifications or special abilities needed. Fighter throws his ball and then the Wizard is 600 feet away.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 12:21 PM
Munchkinned out? Dimension Door, man. 4th level, Verbal-only teleport, no modifications or special abilities needed. Fighter throws his ball and then the Wizard is 600 feet away.

PMP also requires a single attack as a standard action. No charge for it.

Rods of still spell and/or quicken are typically in my mid/high level wizard inventories.

Schylerwalker
2009-10-27, 12:22 PM
This is provided that the wizard and the fighter are allowed to cast spells/drink potions/use scrolls before combat starts. My idea was that neither side got any chance to prepare; ie, they meet on the street and decide to duel.

In my opinion, if a wizard has time to prepare, he's utterly impossible to kill. That's why wizards usually thump the crap out of sorcerers in formal duels.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 12:23 PM
This is provided that the wizard and the fighter are allowed to cast spells/drink potions/use scrolls before combat starts. My idea was that neither side got any chance to prepare; ie, they meet on the street and decide to duel.

In my opinion, if a wizard has time to prepare, he's utterly impossible to kill. That's why wizards usually thump the crap out of sorcerers in formal duels.

True. With enough time, the wizard has spells from 20 or more days before active.

Many buffs cast the day previous.

It's crazy how well prepared a well prepared wizard is, when he has time to prepare.

Schylerwalker
2009-10-27, 12:23 PM
~Smacks forehead.~ I forgot about rods.

But don't you need to be holding/able to wave about the rod for it to work? Or just have it on you?

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 12:26 PM
~Smacks forehead.~ I forgot about rods.

But don't you need to be holding/able to wave about the rod for it to work? Or just have it on you?

Holding. Not many items are "on you and they're good".

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 12:27 PM
Masterwork potion belt - Allows you to draw a potion as a free action.

1st Turn:
Free action - Draw potion.
Move action - Drink potion.
Standard action - Fling iron bands.


My memory failed me... where is written that with a masterwork belt you can draw potions as a free action?

Anyway, drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action.

Schylerwalker
2009-10-27, 12:27 PM
Well, aside from rings, cloaks, amulets, robes, boots, gloves, belts...yeah, there are TONS of items that don't work if they're simply on you. :smallsmile:

Schylerwalker
2009-10-27, 12:28 PM
My memory failed me... where is written that with a masterwork belt you can draw potions as a free action?

Anyway, drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action.

Forgotten Realms Campaign setting!

Lappy9000
2009-10-27, 12:30 PM
I really need to make that galaxy-sized station capable of blowing up the Tippyverse.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 12:34 PM
Forgotten Realms Campaign setting!

Good to know, thanks.
That said, dimension door is verbal...

Schylerwalker
2009-10-27, 12:37 PM
Good to know, thanks.
That said, dimension door is verbal...

However, it's still a standard action. He can't simply cast it while the bands are being thrown. And he'd still be wearing the bands -- unless you're playing in a funky homebrew setting, everything you're "wearing" travels with you...including the iron bands of Bilarro!

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 12:39 PM
Well, aside from rings, cloaks, amulets, robes, boots, gloves, belts...yeah, there are TONS of items that don't work if they're simply on you. :smallsmile:

Rings must be equipped to a slot. So must every other item you named.

Simply being on you, in your backpack, isn't enough.

Schylerwalker
2009-10-27, 12:40 PM
Rings must be equipped to a slot. So must every other item you named.

Simply being on you, in your backpack, isn't enough.

Ahhh, I see what you mean. I misunderstood. Yes, items like that are indeed quite rare.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 12:41 PM
However, it's still a standard action. He can't simply cast it while the bands are being thrown. And he'd still be wearing the bands -- unless you're playing in a funky homebrew setting, everything you're "wearing" travels with you...including the iron bands of Bilarro!

If the caster is "wearing" them, then they're the single most useless item in existence.

The caster, who just heard the command word uttered, and need only say it to end the effect.

That is, if it's an item worn by the caster.

lsfreak
2009-10-27, 12:43 PM
However, it's still a standard action. He can't simply cast it while the bands are being thrown. And he'd still be wearing the bands -- unless you're playing in a funky homebrew setting, everything you're "wearing" travels with you...including the iron bands of Bilarro!

Yea, but he can teleport directly to his sanctum and get a friend/charmed goon/dominated monster/whatever to get the bands off him. Then proceed with scry-and-die.

Schylerwalker
2009-10-27, 12:45 PM
If the caster is "wearing" them, then they're the single most useless item in existence.

The caster, who just heard the command word uttered, and need only say it to end the effect.

That is, if it's an item worn by the caster.

...Huh? That made little to no sense.

The command word must be spoken and then the ball must be hurtled at a target. Otherwise it remains a ball...or a bunch of bands. I don't literally mean wearing. But it's an item basically equipped to the caster. Items that are equipped to you don't disappear if you teleport...unless they specifically say so, I suppose.

Schylerwalker
2009-10-27, 12:46 PM
Yea, but he can teleport directly to his sanctum and get a friend/charmed goon/dominated monster/whatever to get the bands off him. Then proceed with scry-and-die.

I thought this was an actual duel, not a battle of attrition. Obviously, if the wizard needs to run away and reequip, the fighter is the better duelist. If the wizard is forced to flee, the fighter wins; simple.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 12:55 PM
...Huh? That made little to no sense.

The command word must be spoken and then the ball must be hurtled at a target. Otherwise it remains a ball...or a bunch of bands. I don't literally mean wearing. But it's an item basically equipped to the caster. Items that are equipped to you don't disappear if you teleport...unless they specifically say so, I suppose.

True. It goes with you.

And you say the command word. If you're wearing it, it's your attended item.

Then it turns to a ball again.

No, the item is not a worn or equipped item. It doesn't go with the caster. Why? What slot is it in?

If you're grappling, and leave through DD, you leave the other guy behind.

If it's an attended item, on you, you can use the command word to end the effect.
If not, DD leaves it behind.

Catch-22.

Myou
2009-10-27, 12:55 PM
Sure, let's do it. My gear: 2 Scrolls of Wish (28.8k x2), 1 Scroll of Moment of Prescience (3k), 1 Scroll of Implosion (3.8k), 1 Wand of Celerity. Use a Scroll of Wish beforehand to let yourself go first, or, barring that, give yourself a +40 to next Initiative roll. Moment of Prescience is also activated before the fight. That gives me a +60 to Init, on top of everything else, so I go first. Use my Wand of Celerity, use extra standard action to use second scroll of Wish: Impose a -40 to the next save by opponent. Last standard action: Read scroll of Implosion.


Fine, -20 then? No, how about -10? Limited wish allows you to impose a -7, so I think a -10 is justified at the minimum. I could always Time Stop and stack a few of those.

I thought we were sticking to core? No matter. The wizard can't use a Scroll of Foresight anyway, since he's only lvl 13, and I'm assuming he's not doing the same UMD trick. Besides, Wings of Cover is a Sorc only spell.

That's a -7 to a save.

You fail Wish forever.



Fighter wins, though it comes down to initiative.

Round one. Wizard begins to cast a spell. Fighter hits him with a bag of pepper. Spell casting is disrupted for 1d4 turns if the wizard fails the con check. (You could also hit him with a knife to disrupt that spell but that doesn't disrupt later spell casting.)


What the.... Pepper does not force a con check to cast! And why would the wizard be casting a spell that takes more than one round?
Are you talking about 2e or something?

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 12:59 PM
I thought this was an actual duel, not a battle of attrition. Obviously, if the wizard needs to run away and reequip, the fighter is the better duelist. If the wizard is forced to flee, the fighter wins; simple.

Depends.

You think the better army is the one with the immediate victory, or the one that ends the war?

As for "wizard unable to use a scroll without UMD"...

Wizards can just use a Caster level check, as it's a spell on their class list.

1d20+13, vs DC of 18 = 80% activation... 85% with an ioun stone. More with a couple other items. I can get a level 13 wizard to CL 17 outside of core, and autopass the roll.

UMD, however, is DC 37.

Yeah, it's not fair. Wizards cast as a class ability, and so, get a bonus to casting from scrolls.


What the.... Pepper does not force a con check to cast! And why would the wizard be casting a spell that takes more than one round?
Are you talking about 2e or something?

Nondamaging effect. The concentration check is low, though. Any wizard worth his beans will make a concentration DC 20.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-27, 01:00 PM
I thought this was an actual duel, not a battle of attrition. Obviously, if the wizard needs to run away and reequip, the fighter is the better duelist. If the wizard is forced to flee, the fighter wins; simple.

the problem is that the proposed terms of the duel prohibt precast spells, thus depriving the wizard of one of his best advantages, long-duration buffs. It's like requiring the fighter to start the battle without his armor or weapons attached, but no one is suggesting that as a means of balancing the encounter.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 01:04 PM
Fine, -20 then? No, how about -10? Limited wish allows you to impose a -7, so I think a -10 is justified at the minimum. I could always Time Stop and stack a few of those.

Even a wish won't put an effect on an opponent while you're time stopped.

Further, multiple penalties from the same spell don't stack, unless it explicitly states they do. This even applies to untyped.

Wish doesn't.

Myou
2009-10-27, 01:06 PM
Nondamaging effect. The concentration check is low, though.

Wow, seriously? Is that in the DMG somewhere?

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 01:06 PM
the problem is that the proposed terms of the duel prohibt precast spells, thus depriving the wizard of one of his best advantages, long-duration buffs. It's like requiring the fighter to start the battle without his armor or weapons attached, but no one is suggesting that as a means of balancing the encounter.

Reasonable terms are Long-term buffs, typically. 16 hours+, deducted from spells and WBL.

If you have spells that last days, then those, obviously wouldn't. Such as nondetection, which, when extended, lasts 26 days at level 13.

Or Energy Immunity, which, when extended, lasts 2 days.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 01:08 PM
Wow, seriously? Is that in the DMG somewhere?

Most people accept the "distracted by nondamaging spell" section to qualify.

However, the RAW of it isn't hard and fast.

arguskos
2009-10-27, 01:09 PM
Wow, seriously? Is that in the DMG somewhere?
PHB. Check Concentration's description. Pepper in the eyes counts as a non-damaging distraction, no? :smallwink:

Deepblue706
2009-10-27, 01:10 PM
I wonder if it's worth it for the Fighter to purchase a Mirror of Life Trapping.

DC 23 Will Save or just lose. I think most Wizards will generally have a 50% chance of failing that at level 13.

Actually, Eyes of Petrification might do it better. DC 19 Fort.

Myou
2009-10-27, 01:16 PM
PHB. Check Concentration's description. Pepper in the eyes counts as a non-damaging distraction, no? :smallwink:


Most people accept the "distracted by nondamaging spell" section to qualify.

However, the RAW of it isn't hard and fast.

....

So you think pepper is equivalent a level 7 spell?

Sorry guys, but no, nonmagical pepper isn't in the table, and doesn't count as a distraction. You might houserule that it does, but that's a pretty bad houserule if you give it a DC that high.

Ernir
2009-10-27, 01:18 PM
Since it seems to have gotten lost - we are ready to just test this. :smalltongue:

Accepting character sheets now, BYO Fighter or Wizard. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7200742)

arguskos
2009-10-27, 01:19 PM
....

So you think pepper is equivalent a level 7 spell?

Sorry guys, but no, nonmagical pepper isn't in the table, and doesn't count as a distraction. You might houserule that it does, but that's a pretty bad houserule if you give it a DC that high.
Uh... so... what DOES count as a non-damaging distraction again? Also, DC 20 is high now?

At level 5, with a Con of 14, and max ranks, you have a +10 to Concentration. That's assuming you aren't paying attention to synergies to boost that, an item to increase your Con, or anything else!

Pepper may not be in the table, but non-damaging distractions CERTAINLY are. Have you actually HAD pepper in your eyes before? :smalltongue: It's pretty damn distracting, lemme tell ya!

Also, what level 7 spell are you talking about again? Distracting Ray is level 2, for a DC 17+spell level check. Sting Ray is also level 2, has a similar effect. :smallconfused:

Oh, and I'm somewhat insulted that you're saying I'm a bad DM for a houserule I happen to think makes some sense. Thanks a great deal. :smallannoyed:

Oslecamo
2009-10-27, 01:22 PM
the problem is that the proposed terms of the duel prohibt precast spells, thus depriving the wizard of one of his best advantages, long-duration buffs. It's like requiring the fighter to start the battle without his armor or weapons attached, but no one is suggesting that as a means of balancing the encounter.

You've got it. The fighter really doesn't need the armor here, and drawing one weapon is a free action as long as you have at least +1BAB.

Plus I remember being some special armor property that allowed it to be miniaturized and then when it would equip itself over the bearer when the comand word was spoken. Arms and Equipment guide if I'm not mistaken.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 01:23 PM
Agree on the hummingbird.
I think the wizard can easily have a +8 initiative (not optimized at all), so your fighter can be better than him, thanx to his WBL (+12 maximum, I think), but don't count on pre-buffing with scrolls. As I've said a few posts before, they both meet unaware and recognise each other in the same moment.

(PS: See? the piranhas have come... :smallcool:)

Heck, my level 1 wizard in the arena has +10 init. This is without using the doubling familiar bonus trick.

I have no trouble believing that in the next 12 levels, a wizard could get pretty good at going first.

Myou
2009-10-27, 01:29 PM
Uh... so... what DOES count as a non-damaging distraction again? Also, DC 20 is high now?

At level 5, with a Con of 14, and max ranks, you have a +10 to Concentration. That's assuming you aren't paying attention to synergies to boost that, an item to increase your Con, or anything else!

Well, the DC is the level of the spell, so you'd be saying pepper was as distracting as a level 7 non-damaging spell.

I'd say pepper should be DC 10 or 15 at most, or is pepper in the face (not eyes, that would be a called shot) as distracting as an earthquake? :smalltongue:


Pepper may not be in the table, but non-damaging distractions CERTAINLY are. Have you actually HAD pepper in your eyes before? :smalltongue: It's pretty damn distracting, lemme tell ya!

Also, what level 7 spell are you talking about again? Distracting Ray is level 2, for a DC 17+spell level check. Sting Ray is also level 2, has a similar effect. :smallconfused:

Pepper on the table. XD

What rays are these? :smallconfused:
Whatever they may be, they clearly have their own rules for concentration checks.

Edit:

Oh, and I'm somewhat insulted that you're saying I'm a bad DM for a houserule I happen to think makes some sense. Thanks a great deal. :smallannoyed:

Woah, touchy much?! I said it's a bad rule, not that you're a bad DM! Dx

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 01:34 PM
....

So you think pepper is equivalent a level 7 spell?

Sorry guys, but no, nonmagical pepper isn't in the table, and doesn't count as a distraction. You might houserule that it does, but that's a pretty bad houserule if you give it a DC that high.

I didn't say I thought that.

However, I tend to err on the side of caution, and any self respecting level 13 wizard will have 16 ranks in concentration, and possibly combat casting.

Both the Distracting Ray and Sting Ray are in the Spell Compendium, I believe. I generally prefer Ray of dizziness, though. I suppose they all have disadvantages and advantages, though.

As for saves? Eh, the wizard generally wins the "saves" game.

Level 7 spell.
Int 18 wizard, +3 for levels, +1 for age, +6 from enhancement bonus... That's a 28 int, for a DC 26 against fort, ref or will, as he chooses.

Lamech
2009-10-27, 01:40 PM
Pepper should be significantly less distracting than acid. So, in other words not at all; seeing as how acid does nothing if it isn't used like any other attack.

Myou
2009-10-27, 01:41 PM
I didn't say I thought that.

However, I tend to err on the side of caution, and any self respecting level 13 wizard will have 16 ranks in concentration, and possibly combat casting.

Both the Distracting Ray and Sting Ray are in the Spell Compendium, I believe. I generally prefer Ray of dizziness, though. I suppose they all have disadvantages and advantages, though.

As for saves? Eh, the wizard generally wins the "saves" game.

Level 7 spell.
Int 18 wizard, +3 for levels, +1 for age, +6 from enhancement bonus... That's a 28 int, for a DC 26 against fort, ref or will, as he chooses.

Well, according to the entry in the PHB that you referred to, the DC is the ave DC of the spell. The for an item the DC is the minimum DC posible for the spell level + required casting stat. So that makes the valuation of pepper a DC 20 equal to a level 7 spell.

I know it's an easy check at higher levels, but it seems pretty unfair that at level 1 a wizard is likely to be totally shut down if his enemy just blows pepper on him.


Pepper should be significantly less distracting than acid. So, in other words not at all.

Yeah, exactly! I with I'd thouht to just say that, much more eloquent.

Killer Angel
2009-10-27, 01:42 PM
Heck, my level 1 wizard in the arena has +10 init. This is without using the doubling familiar bonus trick.

I have no trouble believing that in the next 12 levels, a wizard could get pretty good at going first.

Me neither. I was thinking to a basic Improvedinitiative plus dex mod.
See? faaar from optimized. A little effort and you can do a lot better.
For example, I remember a regional feat in Faerun player's guide that give another 2 bonus...

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 01:46 PM
Depends on the trigger. If the trigger is when someone with a wand attempts to activate, then it goes off on the activation, not on the resolution.

Stating triggers gets to be an even bigger can of worms. Moreso than even a fighter with scrolls of disjunction, moment of prescience, multiple wishes, and wands...

Really... The tactic you suggest is more suited to a rogue. Trying to use cross class skills to demonstrate your point is like relying on the base attack of the wizard to demonstrate martial prowess.

Though, outside of core, a wizard can read any sor/wiz scroll a fighter can, and more.

You still haven't shown me how you're getting the +36 UMD check you need to automatically activate 9th level spells from scrolls...

Or the +33 you need to emulate a 19 stat.

Assuming you're in core, that's quite the feat.

+36 is easy, I already showed how I do it much earlier:

+12 (ranks) + 2 (magical aptitude) + 3 (skill focus) + 2 (synergy from Spellcraft) + 10 (item) + 1 (luckstone) + 6 (CHA) = +36

I agree this tactic is better suited for the rogue. I'm just trying to show that with enough wealth and enough of a level difference, even a Fighter can win.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 01:47 PM
Well, according to the entry in the PHB that you referred to, the DC is the ave DC of the spell. The for an item the DC is the minimum DC posible for the spell level + required casting stat. So that makes the valuation of pepper a DC 20 equal to a level 7 spell.

I know it's an easy check at higher levels, but it seems pretty unfair that at level 1 a wizard is likely to be totally shut down if his enemy just blows pepper on him.


I'm not stating that I agree with the "Level 7".

It's, how you say, erring on the side of absurdity.

For this challenge, any nondamaging effect based on distraction, attempting to overcome a wizard's concentration, is utter foolishness.

Even a level 9 spell isn't likely.

So, unless the cogent argument is that a pepper sack trumps wish, I'm gonna consider that one dead and buried, because even Wish, used in a nondamaging, nondistracting manner, is unlikely to disrupt a level 13 wizard. DC 23 (from a scroll).

Not sure where he got the 1d4 rounds, though.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 01:50 PM
+36 is easy, I already showed how I do it much earlier:

+12 (ranks) + 2 (magical aptitude) + 3 (skill focus) + 2 (synergy from Spellcraft) + 10 (item) + 1 (luckstone) + 6 (CHA) = +36

I agree this tactic is better suited for the rogue. I'm just trying to show that with enough wealth and enough of a level difference, even a Fighter can win.

Please show me a listed item with a +10 skill bonus to UMD, that does not qualify as overlapping with luckstone.

DMG guidelines don't qualify. Those aren't rules (they're guidelines, and estimates), and specifically state that they need DM consultation, and independent estimation.

I'll be happy to show you one of the more esoteric Wizard accessible items that I haven't used yet, the item familiar, which, while unbalanced, is RAW, and defined.

Schylerwalker
2009-10-27, 01:56 PM
Me neither. I was thinking to a basic Improvedinitiative plus dex mod.
See? faaar from optimized. A little effort and you can do a lot better.
For example, I remember a regional feat in Faerun player's guide that give another 2 bonus...

Blooded. Has to be taken at first level, gives you +2 to Spot and Initiative checks. Relatively useful, actually.

taltamir
2009-10-27, 01:59 PM
does it matter if a 1 on 1 battle between class X and class Y favores one class over the other?
The game is cooperative party vs monster or party vs party play. So the question is, how much does each one contribute and feels like they are helping the party.
The fighter probably gets to kill things quite often by being buffed while his enemies debuffed. Could a wizard built for it take the fighter on 1 on 1? yes. so what?

BTW. If I was a level 20 fighter and wanted to beat a level 13 wizard... i'd pay for some scrying... and get myself fully buffed and then ported on top of the wizard when he is sleeping / shower / indisposed...

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 01:59 PM
Then there's nerveskitter, and a lot of other effects.

A druid spell that gives a +10 to dex.

There are others.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 02:20 PM
does it matter if a 1 on 1 battle between class X and class Y favores one class over the other?
The game is cooperative party vs monster or party vs party play. So the question is, how much does each one contribute and feels like they are helping the party.
The fighter probably gets to kill things quite often by being buffed while his enemies debuffed. Could a wizard built for it take the fighter on 1 on 1? yes. so what?

BTW. If I was a level 20 fighter and wanted to beat a level 13 wizard... i'd pay for some scrying... and get myself fully buffed and then ported on top of the wizard when he is sleeping / shower / indisposed...

It doesn't. Matter, that is.

But scrying's cheap. And it works both ways.

JonestheSpy
2009-10-27, 02:42 PM
In case anyone is still paying attention, I notice that there seems to be this assumption that there are all these circumstances in place that benefit the wizard.

How would it change things if the encounter took place in a standard dungeonish chamber, say 50 by 50 feet, with ceilings no higher than 12 feet or so, and the object of the battle was to actually defeat the opponent - no teleporting out if things start going badly? And no scrying ahead of time - just a typical random encounter with no forewarning for either party.

Megaduck
2009-10-27, 02:43 PM
What the.... Pepper does not force a con check to cast! And why would the wizard be casting a spell that takes more than one round?
Are you talking about 2e or something?

I know it's in the Book of Common Items (It's also in the complete Rogues Guide but that is 2E) I don't remember if it's in the 3E PHB. Pepper to the face requires a Constitution check or results in 1d4 turns of uncontrollable sneezing making the character unable to take more then simple actions or actions that require concentration (Such as spell casting).

I don't have the RAW in front of me but spell casting can cost initiative time.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 02:44 PM
No. It's not. Quickdraw grants you the ability to draw weapons as free items. Wands are not weapons.

Let's show it as this. Quick draw is "A".
Wands are "B".
Weapons are "Y"

A = Y
B != Y

Thus:

B != A

By the way, I just realized: Wands are not weapons, but staves definitely are (in fact it has to be a masterwork weapon). So I could do everything above using Quick Draw with a Staff of Celerity.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-27, 02:48 PM
I don't have the RAW in front of me but spell casting can cost initiative time.

Huh? Full round spells are the only thing I can think of that might apply...but those aren't terribly popular for duels.

I just don't see how casting would normally cost initiative, though tbh, Im not 100% clear on what you're referring to with "initiative time".

arguskos
2009-10-27, 02:49 PM
It's a 2e concept that was never really translated to 3e. The idea is that spells modify your initiative count, based on the spell, so that more powerful spells move you down the count, so people can stop your casting.

Korgg
2009-10-27, 02:57 PM
Spell Compendium pg.4

activating a spell triger item(wand, staff) is a standard action regardles of the casting time of the spell.

so a wand or staff of celerity is a standard action to get a standard action -
not so usefull.

arguskos
2009-10-27, 03:01 PM
Spell Compendium pg.4

activating a spell triger item(wand, staff) is a standard action regardles of the casting time of the spell.

so a wand or staff of celerity is a standard action to get a standard action -
not so usefull.
Superceeded by the Rules Compendium, page 84, where it says that activating a command word item takes the same action as the spell it is duplicating takes to cast. :smallwink:

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 03:15 PM
Please show me a listed item with a +10 skill bonus to UMD, that does not qualify as overlapping with luckstone.

DMG guidelines don't qualify. Those aren't rules (they're guidelines, and estimates), and specifically state that they need DM consultation, and independent estimation.

I'll be happy to show you one of the more esoteric Wizard accessible items that I haven't used yet, the item familiar, which, while unbalanced, is RAW, and defined.

Two separate responses:

(1) DMG guidelines are pretty accepted. If you don't accept those, you can't make Wands or Scrolls of Wings of Cover either, because you're only using the DMG suggested rules and not an actual item. (BTW, I'm still confused whether we're doing Core only or splatbooks.. you keep referring to Wings of Cover, yet disallow Magic Items Compedium for me.. IIRC the Magic Items Compedium does have the +10 UMD item)

(2) Fine. So I'll use a Tome of CHA +5, and start with 1 higher CHA for a +3 to the skill. Circlet of Persuasion is good for another +3. That will put me at +32, which is enough for 100% success on 7th level, 90% success on 8th level, and 80% success on 9th level. I'll live with those odds.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 03:56 PM
Two separate responses:

(1) DMG guidelines are pretty accepted. If you don't accept those, you can't make Wands or Scrolls of Wings of Cover either, because you're only using the DMG suggested rules and not an actual item. (BTW, I'm still confused whether we're doing Core only or splatbooks.. you keep referring to Wings of Cover, yet disallow Magic Items Compedium for me.. IIRC the Magic Items Compedium does have the +10 UMD item)No. MIC is fine, for printed items. But the crafting rules in there don't include X bonus to stat.

The DMG has creation RULES for wands, scrolls, and the like. It even has a non-table entry outlining it.
It has a table with cost ESTIMATES for wondrous items that provide a continuous +X competence bonus to a skill. And that's it. No text. Just a table of estimates.

Don't Believe Me? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingScrolls)

Look for yourself. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWands)

Check the second table here. It's all there is, sadly. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)

Therein lies the difference, and your error.


(2) Fine. So I'll use a Tome of CHA +5, and start with 1 higher CHA for a +3 to the skill. Circlet of Persuasion is good for another +3. That will put me at +32, which is enough for 100% success on 7th level, 90% success on 8th level, and 80% success on 9th level. I'll live with those odds.
So, the 2 wish, 1 destruction, and MoP combo has a... 57.6% chance of working, not even counting the 5% save pass chance (for destruction)? (54.72% chance)

Heck, even wish grants a saving throw. DC 23.

Not even counting a single ability the wizard may have? Such as Spell Resistance (it applies to all effects)... Or Immunity to death effects (which negates destruction)...

From outside of Core, I can easily have a SR of around 26. With Destruction's CL of 13, add another 60% failure chance, bringing the odds to... 21.88%. If I went for broke and had a SR of 30? That's 10.944%.

I'll take those odds that 80%, 80%, 90%, and 95% all needing to succeed is a sure thing... When other things are added in. Heck, those very things above that increase the SR, also mean that the character can autocast 9th level spells from scrolls. Just a matter of noncore ways to boost Caster level to 18.

Megaduck
2009-10-27, 05:44 PM
It's a 2e concept that was never really translated to 3e. The idea is that spells modify your initiative count, based on the spell, so that more powerful spells move you down the count, so people can stop your casting.

<Looks though 3E PHB> Well, huh, look at that. I never noticed they removed that.

Ok, so the casting time hurts initiative is a house rule and not relevant to this discussion then.

Looking back, the pepper is not though.

Myou
2009-10-27, 06:00 PM
Looking back, the pepper is not though.

Yes it is! Read the last few pages again.

Megaduck
2009-10-27, 06:38 PM
Yes it is! Read the last few pages again.

Now, I admit. I play a amalgam of first, second, third, and fourth addition D&D so I normally don't enter these discussions because as far as I'm concerned the games perfectly balanced. (I balance it myself :smallbiggrin: )

However, If I can't house rule that casting spells reduces initiative because we're restricted to the RAW. (Which is fine, we need to set a baseline rule or this is going to turn into a circle jerk) Then you can't remove my pepper.

Myou
2009-10-27, 06:41 PM
Now, I admit. I play a amalgam of first, second, third, and fourth addition D&D so I normally don't enter these discussions because as far as I'm concerned the games perfectly balanced. (I balance it myself :smallbiggrin: )

However, If I can't house rule that casting spells reduces initiative because we're restricted to the RAW. (Which is fine, we need to set a baseline rule or this is going to turn into a circle jerk) Then you can't remove my pepper.

....

By RAW pepper does nothing! It doesn't force a concentration check at all!

This isn't even about RAW, it's about D&D 3.5 which you clearly know nothing about. :smallannoyed:

Edit: I'm sorry, that was rather rude, it's just frustrating to argue against someone who has the facts wrong.

We're working with D&D 35, not 2e, the two are worlds apart and what goes for one does not go for the other. You can't just bring in 2e rules, and you certainly can't complain when others correct you.

Pepper, if you'll look in the PHB, does not force a concentration check, and it would be ludicrous if it did, because it doesn't even deal damage, besides which, mages can just shut their eyes and not breathe it in for the moment it's in the air. Both by RAW and RAI pepper is totally useless.

Indon
2009-10-27, 07:21 PM
Question: Can you use Wish to cast a spell metamagiced up to level 8?

If so, I _really_ don't see the Fighter losing this - all he needs is a fully-charged Ring of Three Wishes. For example, if the Wizard looks vulnerable to ray attacks, his first action could be twinned, empowered Enervate. If you roll well enough for the level drain, the Wizard even loses access to any way to meaningfully flee the fight. From there, the Fighter mops up.

Edit: No, wait, I mean split, empowered Enervate.

KitsuneKionchi
2009-10-27, 07:34 PM
Like most non-support classes fighting off after level 6: doesn't think come down to an initiative war if both characters enter without any pre-battle-buffs?

Even at level 13 the wizard can still cast illusions with a will DC far over DC20 (20th level fighter has 6 will save). The fighter on the other hand can hit with 5-8 attacks in a round and, with just the simplest weapon enchancements like Fiery, Icy, Thundering, etc..., easily do far more damage than the wizard has hit points.

Yes, the fighter can have goggles of true seeing and the wizard can have numerous items to stop the fighter.

But when it comes down to an item war, we might as well compare equal level commoners. And we'll likely go in a circle.

What if the Fighter hires a bunch of spellcasters to entrap the battlefield in anti-magic fields? What if the Wizard has a contingent spell to teleport out of any anti-magic field cast? What if the Fighter has a contingent spell to divert teleportation (well, contingent psionic)?

Now who would win if neither had any magic gear? Probably the wizard since most magic gear sets out to emulate a specific spell (often times a bolstered versino of that spell).

Which is loop that I see these arguments get into. A wizard casts spells, but can't beat face. A fighter beats face, but can't cast spells. Items cast spells. Some spells allow wizards to beat face. A fighter 20 with full ranks in UMD, skill focus UMD, and a +5 UMD item is literally rolling for 1s with his or her UMD checks with scrolls of ANYTHING a wizard can cast. Except those scrolls are standard actions, of course. But then we loop back around to the first part of my post: initiative war.

Of course, as I posted earlier, in an initiative war the wizard edges out with hummingbird familiar and the ability to have dex be a secondary stat (although a fighter can easily have dex as his or her first stat if he's finesseful or a ranged character).

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 07:54 PM
No. MIC is fine, for printed items. But the crafting rules in there don't include X bonus to stat.

The DMG has creation RULES for wands, scrolls, and the like. It even has a non-table entry outlining it.
It has a table with cost ESTIMATES for wondrous items that provide a continuous +X competence bonus to a skill. And that's it. No text. Just a table of estimates.

... I don't know what to say to this.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues

It says very clearly (and in a table no less) that an item granting a competence bonus to a skill is 100 * (skill bonus)^2, and gives the Boots of Elvenkind as an example. What's more, this same table mentions the prices for the scrolls and wands. It takes pretty willful disregard of facts to further a point, in order to pretend like this doesn't exist.

I guess the SRD and the Core Rulebooks also don't mention that NPCs, in general, try to avoid dying. I suppose it's entirely plausible that most NPCs you meet are suicidal and are happy if you kill them and take their loot.


So, the 2 wish, 1 destruction, and MoP combo has a... 57.6% chance of working, not even counting the 5% save pass chance (for destruction)? (54.72% chance)

Because, you know, I can't just try again if I fail to use MoP beforehand the first time. Even Wish (or Limited Wish) can be used beforehand, in which case all failure chance is moot, as long as it's not 100%.


Heck, even wish grants a saving throw. DC 23.

Depends on usage.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedwish.htm

It clearly says here in Limited Wish that imposing a -7 to saving throw for a target's next saving throw does not allow a save.


Not even counting a single ability the wizard may have? Such as Spell Resistance (it applies to all effects)... Or Immunity to death effects (which negates destruction)...

From outside of Core, I can easily have a SR of around 26. With Destruction's CL of 13, add another 60% failure chance, bringing the odds to... 21.88%. If I went for broke and had a SR of 30? That's 10.944%.

I love how you treat yourself to the most broken non-core items and limit me to strictly core. I also love how you completely disregard you limited wealth and act like you can buy two of everything. Immunity to Death Effects? Sure, it's a Cleric thing, and getting one that acts continuously costs 70k out of your 110k gold, but hey, nothing's too expensive, right?


I'll take those odds that 80%, 80%, 90%, and 95% all needing to succeed is a sure thing... When other things are added in. Heck, those very things above that increase the SR, also mean that the character can autocast 9th level spells from scrolls. Just a matter of noncore ways to boost Caster level to 18.

You know, I give up on you. You've made your mind before reading any of my posts, so there's really very little point in continuing to banter against you.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and remember not to play in games DMed by the other guy.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 07:55 PM
... I don't know what to say to this.


I do.



Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

It's just a little further down, if you scroll a little.

AstralFire
2009-10-27, 07:55 PM
Suffice to say, if pepper was meant to be something that could actually distract wizards from casting a spell in D&D, you would never be able to cast while someone was hitting you with a flaming sword of grimdark.

Frosty
2009-10-27, 07:56 PM
I didn't read past the first pafe really cuz I'm in a hurry, but if Wind Wall ruins an archer's day, what about thrown weapons? Take a dip into Bloodstorm Blade and you've got a fierce contender for someone who doesn't always need flight, especially in an underground environment where the ceiling is only so high.

Myou
2009-10-27, 07:59 PM
Suffice to say, if pepper was meant to be something that could actually distract wizards from casting a spell in D&D, you would never be able to cast while someone was hitting you with a flaming sword of grimdark.

Precisely. It's just ridiculous. :smallsmile:

Indon
2009-10-27, 08:12 PM
Suffice to say, if pepper was meant to be something that could actually distract wizards from casting a spell in D&D, you would never be able to cast while someone was hitting you with a flaming sword of grimdark.

Doesn't damage almost automatically impose a more severe concentration DC check than pepper would?

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 08:14 PM
I do.



It's just a little further down, if you scroll a little.

So, you're basically saying if it has the word "estimate," then it doesn't count as rules as written. Things like:


When movement is hampered, each square moved into USUALLY counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.

should also be ignored, because that's only usually.

The thing is, I wouldn't mind if PhoenixRivers was actually a real RAW stickler.. the fact is that he throws spells around like Wings of Cover without justification (it's Sorc only spell), and thus claims to use a wand of it, disregarding his one initial complaints of having a wand on hand at all times.

"Estimate," if it's a good estimate at all, means it's within a factor of 2. Otherwise, what was the point of Wizards putting in this table in the first place?

Mikeavelli
2009-10-27, 08:16 PM
Fighter 20 wins, easily.

With the amount of damage a decently built 20th level fighter can put out, the wizard will die from a single hit, and it's game over. That's it, one miscalculation on the wizard's part, one trick that the fighter planned ahead for, one saving throw that doesn't quite go so well, and the Fighter has demolished the Wizard.

Meanwhile, the fighter has enough gold to purchase a contingency against anything the wizard might be trying, and he doesn't need UMD to do it!

Illusions\invisibility? Item of true seeing. Flight? Boots of flight. Paralysis? Ring of Freedom of movement. Force Cage + Cloudkill? Cape of the Montebank, or Rod of cancellation. Death Effects? Scarab of Protection.

That last one provides some pretty nice SR for facing a 13th level Wizard, too.

These are all sensible items that a fighter wouldn't exactly be going out of his way to acquire, they're fairly standard adventuring wear. He doesn't need to waste his WBL on expendable items to deal with a piddling little threat like this either.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 08:23 PM
... I don't know what to say to this.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues

It says very clearly (and in a table no less) that an item granting a competence bonus to a skill is 100 * (skill bonus)^2, and gives the Boots of Elvenkind as an example. What's more, this same table mentions the prices for the scrolls and wands. It takes pretty willful disregard of facts to further a point, in order to pretend like this doesn't exist.
It says also, very clearly, that these are estimates. However, unlike the others, there are no listed rules for creating such an item. Just a guide for "estimating" (estimate = guess) the value of said item.

The table does mention the price for scrolls and wands. Those prices are echoed in other sections, where it lays down rules (previously linked) for those items. Skill bonuses are not laid down.


I guess the SRD and the Core Rulebooks also don't mention that NPCs, in general, try to avoid dying. I suppose it's entirely plausible that most NPCs you meet are suicidal and are happy if you kill them and take their loot.
It doesn't state that they are, one way or the other. I suppose then, that your appeal to the ludicrous here is meant to be taken as a cogent argument?

Regardless of what you think, any attempt to create an item that can be traced to only that table, is an estimate. A guess. The RAW says as much at the top of the table. This means that the cost for these things cannot be accurately determined. It's entirely plausible, based on that, that the item's appropriate cost is more or less than you estimate. The RAW doesn't go into that, so it cannot be determined RAW. If you can't get the price, you can't get the item.

It's been stated that Dragon magazine is nearly always not allowed.
So is custom item creation without DM input, which is what you're doing.


Because, you know, I can't just try again if I fail to use MoP beforehand the first time. Even Wish (or Limited Wish) can be used beforehand, in which case all failure chance is moot, as long as it's not 100%.

Except for mishap chances, with scrolls? Which expend them.
And how much advance time are you giving this fighter? Is the wizard also handcuffed to a table, unconscious, with all his gear in the next room?

What does the wizard get to do in the same time, while the fighter is targeting him with wish spells? Targeting requires Line of Sight for practically all spells. Ah, we forgot about that. That's why we resolve these things via initiative order, especially when said things are targeting opponents. If the wish generated a long term-buff effect, you'd have an argument. As is, it's not.


Depends on usage.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedwish.htm

It clearly says here in Limited Wish that imposing a -7 to saving throw for a target's next saving throw does not allow a save.But it is targeted. Which requires LoE and LoS. And that goes both ways. For hostile actions which require LoS and LoE, we have a system for usage in combat.

It's called initiative.


I love how you treat yourself to the most broken non-core items and limit me to strictly core. I also love how you completely disregard you limited wealth and act like you can buy two of everything. Immunity to Death Effects? Sure, it's a Cleric thing, and getting one that acts continuously costs 70k out of your 110k gold, but hey, nothing's too expensive, right?Or Necropolitan.

I've never limited you to core. I just limit you to RAW. Stop strawmanning my position.


You know, I give up on you. You've made your mind before reading any of my posts, so there's really very little point in continuing to banter against you.

I've made up my mind that custom items are not hard and fast RAW, yes.
If you'd care to entertain the +10 UMD item in the MIC, I'm all ears. But I'm not going to do your research for you. Bring RAW, or concede that it's not.


I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and remember not to play in games DMed by the other guy.
I generally don't play in games where the DM allows his NPC's to regularly throw multiple Wishes at me precombat without any explanation how.

But yeah, thanks for that illuminating revelation.

The wizard, in that time, that the Fighter is performing his wishes, activate a scroll with Shapechange on it, and turn into <insert construct> or <insert undead>. Both completely nerf the tactic.

But we don't consider that.

He could Dim Door away.
Or block LoS with a Fog Cloud.
Or ethereal jaunt.
Or greater blink and ready an action to blink out of the way of each spell.
Or any of a dozen effects, both in core and out, that completely destroy this 3 round setup plan.
"Doing it beforehand" is handicapping the wizard even further than the 7 rounds. It's also handicapping the wizard for 3 rounds.

I could just as easily state that while you're wishing that, the wizard could be reading Dispel scrolls until you lose your buffs and then casting dominate monster targeting you. After all, it's fair if the wizard does all these hostile effects that target you beforehand, right?

Cause that's what your fighter's doing.


So, you're basically saying if it has the word "estimate," then it doesn't count as rules as written. Things like:



should also be ignored, because that's only usually.It's a guide for GM use. However, most hampered movement conditions say how hampered. Such as squeezing. The exact amount for difficult terrain? That's dealt with and assigned by a DM. Which means it's beyond the scope of the discussion.


The thing is, I wouldn't mind if PhoenixRivers was actually a real RAW stickler.. the fact is that he throws spells around like Wings of Cover without justification (it's Sorc only spell), and thus claims to use a wand of it, disregarding his one initial complaints of having a wand on hand at all times.My initial point was brought up as a contention for scrolls. Switching between different scrolls and wands like they're candy is a bit difficult. Just as targeting people with offensive effects prematch is.


"Estimate," if it's a good estimate at all, means it's within a factor of 2. Otherwise, what was the point of Wizards putting in this table in the first place?"Estimate", regardless of how good or bad it is, means it's a GUESS. It's in the DMG, as a DM tool to assist in the estimation of values of items. It's not meant to be the RAW that stands. The DMG actually has a nice section about how it's best to estimate based on similar items, over the table. The books actually say that spitballing it, when possible, is preferred. That kinda mitigates the value of the table.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 08:23 PM
Meanwhile, the fighter has enough gold to purchase a contingency against any one thing the wizard might be trying, and he doesn't need UMD to do it!
Fixed it for you.


Illusions\invisibility? Item of true seeing. Flight? Boots of flight. Paralysis? Ring of Freedom of movement. Force Cage + Cloudkill? Cape of the Montebank, or Rod of cancellation. Death Effects? Scarab of Protection.
Nothing for will saves?

Being blinded by Glitterdust is going to put some serious dents in your defense.

Kurald Galain
2009-10-27, 08:24 PM
Just to add a little twist to the argument:

The wizard will win, because he is much, much smarter than the fighter. Even without divination ability, he is Petyr Baelish to the fighter's Eddard Stark. That's all it takes, really.

Megaduck
2009-10-27, 08:32 PM
Suffice to say, if pepper was meant to be something that could actually distract wizards from casting a spell in D&D, you would never be able to cast while someone was hitting you with a flaming sword of grimdark.

I don't make up the rules. I just exploit them. I got the 3E book on equipment specifically because I was tired of everything having to be magical.

But you know, we're not even using the same books so this entire conversation is pretty much pointless. So I'm just going to leave it at that.

Mikeavelli
2009-10-27, 08:32 PM
Fixed it for you.

Nothing for will saves?

Being blinded by Glitterdust is going to put some serious dents in your defense.

You're not too sharp there are ya? The Fighters WBL is 760,000.

THe price tag for all those items combined is barely over 200,000.

Gem of True seeing counters blindness.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 08:34 PM
You're not too sharp there are ya? The Fighters WBL is 760,000.

THe price tag for all those items combined is barely over 200,000.

Gem of True seeing counters blindness.

Fog Cloud, a level 2 spell, blocks vision and trumps True Seeing.

Add in blindsense (available in core through a familiar, out of core through numerous spells and items), and the wizard can always know where the fighter is, when near.

Alternately, mindsight is an option, out of core. Telepathy is obtainable.
Alternately, there are a hundred thousand variables that cannot be predicted.

Though there's a bigger catch-22 here. To gain the benefits of the Gem, you have to be able to look through it.

If you're blinded, you can't.

Blindness prevents the item from functioning.

Asusming you refer to a Gem of Seeing, that is.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 08:37 PM
Except for mishap chances, with scrolls? Which expend them.
And how much advance time are you giving this fighter? Is the wizard also handcuffed to a table, unconscious, with all his gear in the next room?[\QUOTE]

Gotta love that extra money. I'm expected to fail 0.11 times for every time I succeed on a level 8 scroll, fail 0.25 times every time I succeed on a level 9 scroll. And that's assuming you don't allow the custom +UMD item.

Wish doesn't require line of sight if you phrase it correctly: The next target I attempt to use Implosion on takes a -7 to his save. Even if multiple Wishes can't stack this save, Limited Wish will stack with Wish, for at least a -14 to save.

[QUOTE=PhoenixRivers;7203629]It's called initiative.

Right. Which the fighter wins, thanks to a lot better gear (Eager Daggers of Warning, etc.).


The wizard, in that time, that the Fighter is performing his wishes, activate a scroll with Shapechange on it, and turn into <insert construct> or <insert undead>. Both completely nerf the tactic.

Again, you conveniently forget your own failure chance for activating a scroll 4 caster levels higher than you. And you don't know what the fighter is doing, because he's doing this in prep rounds.

For all you know, the fighter could be using Dual Wand Wielder and using two Wands of Cold DEX damage (I forget what the spell is called... it's in Frostburn, and does 3d6 DEX damage on a touch attack, with no save).


He could Dim Door away.
Or block LoS with a Fog Cloud.
Or ethereal jaunt.
Or greater blink and ready an action to blink out of the way of each spell.
Or any of a dozen effects, both in core and out, that completely destroy this 3 round setup plan.
"Doing it beforehand" is handicapping the wizard even further than the 7 rounds. It's also handicapping the wizard for 3 rounds.


All of these assume the Wizard wins initiative.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-27, 08:39 PM
You're not too sharp there are ya? The Fighters WBL is 760,000.

THe price tag for all those items combined is barely over 200,000.

Gem of True seeing counters blindness.

Hate to burst the bubble, but...


This finely cut and polished stone is indistinguishable from an ordinary jewel in appearance. When it is gazed through, a gem of seeing enables the user to see as though she were affected by the true seeing spell. A gem of seeing can be used for as much as 30 minutes a day, divided up into periods of minutes or rounds as the user sees fit.

How is Mr. Fighter gazing, which is to say, seeing, through a gem after already being hit by a glitterdust?

EDIT: Ninja'd by an edit.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 08:44 PM
Wish doesn't require line of sight if you phrase it correctly: The next target I attempt to use Implosion on takes a -7 to his save. Even if multiple Wishes can't stack this save, Limited Wish will stack with Wish, for at least a -14 to save.Incorrect. Now it's not a listed effect. The listed effect for limited wish includes a target. Targeted spells have rules. The phrasing you use is not a listed effect. It requires a target. Targets require sight.


Again, you conveniently forget your own failure chance for activating a scroll 4 caster levels higher than you. And you don't know what the fighter is doing, because he's doing this in prep rounds.Sigh. Consumptive field, activated before the fight for CL increase. Use a scroll of limited wish to get it. UMD a Karma bead.

Really, there are ways. There are even spells that increase CL temporarily.


All of these assume the Wizard wins initiative.
Or drops a Fog cloud in the prep rounds? Cause you know, you don't know what he's doing in prep rounds.

Or uses Greater Blink in a prep round, and uses a second prep round to ready an action to avoid an attack.

Or decides for 1 less prep round, and Simply delays until the fight starts, obviating the need for initiative entirely.

There are more options than you account for.

Bibliomancer
2009-10-27, 08:44 PM
All of these assume the Wizard wins initiative.

A reasonable assumption because a wizard in a duel would buy 2 scrolls of polymorph any object to permanently become a dire tortoise. They go first.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 08:47 PM
A reasonable assumption because a wizard in a duel would buy 2 scrolls of polymorph any object to permanently become a dire tortoise. They go first.

Or a scroll of shapechange... you know. In the buff rounds. Oddly enough, it's actually a buff, rather than a no-save, targeted attack.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 08:47 PM
A reasonable assumption because a wizard in a duel would buy 2 scrolls of polymorph any object to permanently become a dire tortoise. They go first.

OK, sure, but the Fighter can do the exact same, because he also has the wealth.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 08:48 PM
OK, sure, but the Fighter can do the exact same, because he also has the wealth.

Ah, but he doesn't know what the wizard is doing.

Honestly, Shrodinger's Fighter is getting a bit overplayed here.

Not to mention the wizard can still+silent+eschew all his spells, and cast as a Dire Tortoise.

The fighter isn't gonna be so lucky reading that destruction spell.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 08:51 PM
Ah, but he doesn't know what the wizard is doing.

Honestly, Shrodinger's Fighter is getting a bit overplayed here.

If it's a good idea for the Wizard to be a Dire Tortoise permanently, it's a good idea for the Fighter to do so. I, as a player, don't know all the rules. The fighter, as an in-game character, knows what high level wizards typically do (he did make it to level 20, after all).


I agree, I bore of this, mostly because you cite and use rules only when they suit you. If my fighter 20 doesn't know about the Dire Tortoise, then your wizard didn't either, because you made no mention of it. Sure, the other Wizard 13 may have it, but not you.

Goodbye, and I do hope you do learn a little about Quantum Physics at some point and figure out who Schrodinger is (note c).

Mikeavelli
2009-10-27, 08:54 PM
Get a leather strap and fashion the gem of true seeing into a goggles-type thing. All you have to do is be gazing through the gem. Even if you're blind, it still effects you as true seeing, negating the blindness.

Alternatively, there are dozens of alternate sense abilities (the blindfold that gives you blindsight, for example) - and the Fighter has so much wealth to burn, he can keep one on hand, just in case.

All this depends on the fighter failing his will save too, which, frankly, it's a second level spell. The DC isn't going to be terribly high to (again) an optimized 20th level character. Even a fighter.


[hr]

Also, Fighter can buy a Ring of Spell Turning. Full Stop.

It wouldn't stop Glitterdust (whoop de doo) - but it would prevent the majority of stuff a 13th level wizard could do against him that hasn't already been covered.

taltamir
2009-10-27, 09:00 PM
Fixed it for you.

Nothing for will saves?

Being blinded by Glitterdust is going to put some serious dents in your defense.

you know, I would think so too, but it doesn't hamper them all that much:


Blinded
The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

So for combat it means two things:
1. They have a 50% miss chance
2. They are at -2 to AC. If they are dex based defense, then more.

A typical tank isn't gonna be terribly hurting over that 2 AC, and isn't gonna have dex anyways. And the 50% flat miss chance (instead of -X to attack) means that they can still hit a fairly large amount of times. I actually had a wizard killed by a blinded creature (it charged past the party tanks, taking AoO, rolled its 50% miss chance, and insta gibbed the wizard).

Of course, the DM may add ad hoc limitations (such as, can't charge, can only attack people already in reach, need to roll listen to decide which direction to go, and only attack enemies at random, etc)... but by the RAW blinded is not that bad.

Yukitsu
2009-10-27, 09:02 PM
you know, I would think so too, but it doesn't hamper them all that much:



So for combat it means two things:
1. They have a 50% miss chance
2. They are at -2 to AC. If they are dex based defense, then more.

A typical tank isn't gonna be terribly hurting over that 2 AC, and isn't gonna have dex anyways. And the 50% flat miss chance (instead of -X to attack) means that they can still hit a fairly large amount of times. I actually had a wizard killed by a blinded creature (it charged past the party tanks, taking AoO, rolled its 50% miss chance, and insta gibbed the wizard).

Of course, the DM may add ad hoc limitations (such as, can't charge, can only attack people already in reach, need to roll listen to decide which direction to go, and only attack enemies at random, etc)... but by the RAW blinded is not that bad.

Line of sight is a requirement of a charge for one, and for two, you can't charge around people. Lastly, it needed to make a listen check to locate his square. Those aren't ad hoc, they are in there.

AstralFire
2009-10-27, 09:04 PM
I don't make up the rules. I just exploit them. I got the 3E book on equipment specifically because I was tired of everything having to be magical.

But you know, we're not even using the same books so this entire conversation is pretty much pointless. So I'm just going to leave it at that.

What book are you using? I do not recall seeing pepper in the Arms and Equipment Guide.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 09:08 PM
All this depends on the fighter failing his will save too, which, frankly, it's a second level spell. The DC isn't going to be terribly high to (again) an optimized 20th level character. Even a fighter.

A hard number is preferable to an unsupported assertion.

I get a will save of 6 base, -1 wis, +5 cloak for a +10 will save at level 20 Let's give you +4 by assuming that you've bought a +4 Tome of Wisdom and a +6 Periapt of Wisdom to beef up your will save, an +2 again from Iron Will for a total of +16. The DC for Glitterdust is going to be at least 24, higher if Spell Focus: Conjuration (Spell Focus is a prerequisite for Archmage), Greater Spell Focus, and/or Heighten Spell are used.

Assuming it's +16 vs +24, you have a 60% chance of resisting, lower if we bring in enhancers.

Of course, there are going to be multiple second level spell slots available, so you'd better kill the wizard quickly before he tosses enough your way that your 40% fail rate takes effect.


If it's a good idea for the Wizard to be a Dire Tortoise permanently, it's a good idea for the Fighter to do so.
Unless, you know, the fighter can't use his weapons as a Dire Tortoise...

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:23 PM
Unless, you know, the fighter can't use his weapons as a Dire Tortoise...

A fighter's weapons are his feats and his BAB. A Fighter polymorphed Dire Tortoise can beat a Wizard polymorphed Dire Tortoise in a grapple by a lot. Especially if the Fighter-polymorphed Dire Tortoise has a lot of wealth to burn on inherent bonuses, like a Tome of +5 STR applied to his Dire Tortoise form.

Mikeavelli
2009-10-27, 09:23 PM
Honestly, if you're a 13th level wizard, and your argument for pwning the 20th level fighter is "I'll spam glitterdust until he fails a save"

you've pretty much lost.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 09:26 PM
A fighter's weapons are his feats and his BAB. A Fighter polymorphed Dire Tortoise can beat a Wizard polymorphed Dire Tortoise in a grapple by a lot.


Freedom of Movement
This gold ring allows the wearer to act as if continually under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.

Moderate abjuration; CL 7th; Forge Ring, freedom of movement; Price 40,000 gp.

Just thought you ought to know.


Honestly, if you're a 13th level wizard, and your argument for pwning the 20th level fighter is "I'll spam glitterdust until he fails a save"

you've pretty much lost.
Why don't we take it one step further?

"If you're argument for pwning the fighter is to cast spells at all, or use a class feature, as opposed to items that you bought with your money, then you've lost."

OldTrees
2009-10-27, 09:30 PM
A fighter's will save is their 2nd best save if you have Complete Champion

Base Save: +6
Resolute ACF L2(-10attack, +10 will saves)
Cloak of res: +5
Wisdom: ~+4

Total: +25

Iron will would increase that to +27

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:31 PM
Just thought you ought to know.

(Ring of Freedom of Movement)

That will be 40,000 gold pieces, and thank you sir! You have 70,000 gp left. And you're still susceptible to a grapple in an Anti-magic Field. Not to mention your ring is susceptible to various magic that blasts it. I could use a Rod of Cancellation, for example, and that's only 11,000 gold pieces.

I mean, as soon as you start relying on expensive magical items, the Wizard 13 is lost, because he only has about 1/7 the net worth of the Fighter 20...

Yukitsu
2009-10-27, 09:32 PM
Of course, you're kind of useless when you do that.

Mikeavelli
2009-10-27, 09:32 PM
Basically, you've yet to explain how all of this nonsense will actually hurt the fighter. Even if the worst case scenario happens, he's blinded, doesn't have a spare magic item that gives him back his sight, and can't hurt the wizard until the duration on glitterdust runs out, what are you going to do?

If you try to Batman him, you lose, because of all the aforementioned protective items

If you try to conjure monsters to beat him down, you'll lose, because a 20th level fighter will annihilate any summoned monsters a 13th level wizard could summon.

If you try to blast him... Wait, you won't, because you're prepped for batman tatics. You don't have enough blasting spells to kill him, even if he didn''t have a ring of spell turning.

The fighter will be inconvenienced until the duration on glitterdust runs out.

[hr]

Meanwhile, if the fighter gets one successful attack on the wizard, the Wizard is dead. I'd be willing to bet he'll hit you at least once before you've successfully glitterdusted him.

Yukitsu
2009-10-27, 09:35 PM
You should head on down to the arena for this then, because as the saying goes, talk is cheap.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 09:39 PM
If it's a good idea for the Wizard to be a Dire Tortoise permanently, it's a good idea for the Fighter to do so. I, as a player, don't know all the rules. The fighter, as an in-game character, knows what high level wizards typically do (he did make it to level 20, after all).Except it's not. Being a Dire Tortoise precludes using most of the tactics you state.


I agree, I bore of this, mostly because you cite and use rules only when they suit you. If my fighter 20 doesn't know about the Dire Tortoise, then your wizard didn't either, because you made no mention of it. Sure, the other Wizard 13 may have it, but not you.I cite rules that support my position, yes.

Why don't you?


Goodbye, and I do hope you do learn a little about Quantum Physics at some point and figure out who Schrodinger is (note c).
The cat is both alive and dead, until it is observed? Yeah, I know. It also ties into the Heisenberg Principle, wherein you can't observe an object without changing it (either its postition or velocity, IIRC), to create numerous snags in measuring subatomic particles.

The term is used in D&D to describe someone who has an "is all things" build, though. An analogy, as it were. Rather apt, if I may say so.

EDIT: Oh, and for reference, if we're Shrodinger Fightering, let's do it with wizard too. The next target you cast destruction on gets a minus whatever to its save.

Wizard has a Ring of Spell-battle. Really common item for casters in matches. Not detectable when used. Redirects the spell to another target. No action required. You'd not find out until you were hit that you just targeted yourself. And thus became the victim of your own wishes.

Will you save? Likely.
Cost? Surprise round, and a lot of WBL for a kill method involving expendables.

Alternately, Ring of Greater Counterspells, with Destruction in it. After all, presumably a level 13 wizard, who can kill a fighter 20, has seen them before. Presumably he knows their tactics and is prepared.

Your argument is circular logic. In order to prove you CAN beat a wizard 13, you start with you have done it before. If you can't, you haven't yet, and thus, it's not a valid logical premise. But that's not RAW. That's simple logical flaws in the statements.

It's like saying that bears can fly, because this polar bear has flown, and thus knows how.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 09:48 PM
The cat is both alive and dead, until it is observed? Yeah, I know. It also ties into the Heisenberg Principle, wherein you can't observe an object without changing it (either its postition or velocity, IIRC), to create numerous snags in measuring subatomic particles.

You forgot the most important part about Schrodinger cat: it dies immediately when you observe it. The idea is that when it's in the box, it's a certain state, but you can never observe that state without changing it.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle doesn't have anything to do with observing and changing objects. It says that are related pairs of properties, in which greater knowledge of one precludes knowledge of the other. In the classical position/momentum case, the more accurately you know a particle's momentum, the less accurately you know a particle's position. This hold regardless of whether you're observing it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 09:49 PM
You really should address the other part of the argument.


I agree, I bore of this, mostly because you cite and use rules only when they suit you. If my fighter 20 doesn't know about the Dire Tortoise, then your wizard didn't either, because you made no mention of it. Sure, the other Wizard 13 may have it, but not you.
Which class gets Knowledge (all) as class skills?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 09:57 PM
If you try to blast him... Wait, you won't, because you're prepped for batman tatics. You don't have enough blasting spells to kill him, even if he didn''t have a ring of spell turning.
Rod of Extend + Acid Arrow. Cast a few of those. It's fun.


Meanwhile, if the fighter gets one successful attack on the wizard, the Wizard is dead. I'd be willing to bet he'll hit you at least once before you've successfully glitterdusted him.
And I'll bet otherwise.

Now what?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 10:00 PM
A fighter's will save is their 2nd best save if you have Complete Champion

Base Save: +6
Resolute ACF L2(-10attack, +10 will saves)
Cloak of res: +5
Wisdom: ~+4

Total: +25

Iron will would increase that to +27

I think the person I was talking to wanted the argument restricted to core for some reason.

Akal Saris
2009-10-27, 10:01 PM
Actually, as a fighter in this sort of silly challenge, I'd probably want to carry a few scrolls of Heal as well. Might as well borrow some tricks from Codzilla while UMDing moment of prescience and whatnot.

Indon
2009-10-27, 10:03 PM
Wish doesn't require line of sight if you phrase it correctly: The next target I attempt to use Implosion on takes a -7 to his save. Even if multiple Wishes can't stack this save, Limited Wish will stack with Wish, for at least a -14 to save.
Why use a Wish for something so convoluted? Just use a normal save-or-lose spell, like Baleful Polymorph or Feeblemind or something. The save DC is even boosted to that of a level 9 spell. A Wish gives you access to the entire Sor/Wiz list up to level 8, but better than the actual Wizard you're fighting.

Heck, why bother with a Wish? Buy a Mirror of Opposition and show it to the Wizard.

Glimbur
2009-10-27, 10:16 PM
You forgot the most important part about Schrodinger cat: it dies immediately when you observe it. The idea is that when it's in the box, it's a certain state, but you can never observe that state without changing it.


Not true. The cat could be alive. But the point is that it's both dead and alive until we open the box and check. Then the superposition collapses and the cat is either alive or dead.

Mikeavelli
2009-10-27, 10:23 PM
I've only been talking about core because it's what I know best, and I can't be bothered to go searching through splatbooks. I've got nothing against'em though.

A minor ring of Acid resistance is 12K, and completely blocks Acid arrow.

No, I'm not going to throw together a 20th level fighter character to prove you wrong in the Arena.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 10:27 PM
I've only been talking about core because it's what I know best, and I can't be bothered to go searching through splatbooks. I've got nothing against'em though.

A minor ring of Acid resistance is 12K, and completely blocks Acid arrow.
And how do you know to have the item? Is it one of those commonly bought fighter items that a level 20 fighter can be counted on having, like the Blindfold? Seems a bit specific to me.

If you had a set of all 5 rings, I believe it would be 60K. Not cheap.


No, I'm not going to throw together a 20th level fighter character to prove you wrong in the Arena.
So you have no proof of your position, nor are you willing to prove it. How can you expect me, or others, to believe you?

Tanaric
2009-10-27, 10:29 PM
Did this really devolve into a "My dad can beat up your dad" argument?

I mean, it was obviously toeing the line just by virtue of being, but still...

AstralFire
2009-10-27, 10:31 PM
Versus topic.

On the internet.

For a hobby/special interest.

You were expecting maybe the great debates?

Mikeavelli
2009-10-27, 10:38 PM
Same place you memorized enough acid Arrow spells to kill a 20th level fighter from.

at 13th level, acid arrow lasts 5 rounds (10 extended), and deal about 4 points of damage per round.

A 20th level fighter will have ~200 hit points (assuming 20 con), You'll need 50 rounds worth of Acid Arrows to kill the fighter, all other things being equal.

That's an awful big resource investment on something that can, and will, be countered.

My point is, for all these strategies you have, you, as a 13th level wizard, can only try so many of them before you run out of resources.

The Fighter can have counters to all of them combined, and still have plenty left over.



So you have no proof of your position, nor will you do anything to prove it.

Nope, have fun with your moral superiority, tough guy.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 10:39 PM
You forgot the most important part about Schrodinger cat: it dies immediately when you observe it. The idea is that when it's in the box, it's a certain state, but you can never observe that state without changing it.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle doesn't have anything to do with observing and changing objects. It says that are related pairs of properties, in which greater knowledge of one precludes knowledge of the other. In the classical position/momentum case, the more accurately you know a particle's momentum, the less accurately you know a particle's position. This hold regardless of whether you're observing it.

Sigh, I have to research sources to cite now. From Wikipedia, uncertainty principle:

The uncertainty principle is often stated this way:
The measurement of position necessarily disturbs a particle's momentum, and vice versa.
That sounds an awful lot about observation of position changing momentum, and observation of momentum changing position. Hm. Wikipedia must be wrong then?

You focus too much on the initial wordings, and not enough on the why. 'Observers cannot observe without altering the subject' was a core hypothesis of the theory, and a contributing factor of its creation. And Heisenberg proved it in 1927.

Please cite source for your "most important" aspect of Schroedinger's Cat, not that it has any relevance on the discussion, or the entirely independent definition of a Shroedinger Character in D&D. After all, for something so important and intrinsic to the theory, it's unusual that I can't locate a cite with a few minutes of searching.

So back up your point.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-27, 10:42 PM
My point is, for all these strategies you have, you, as a 13th level wizard, can only try so many of them before you run out of resources.

I have to say, I find this intensely amusing, considering your theoretical fighter only comes up with these defensive measures after the offensive ones have been provided.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 10:43 PM
I have to say, I find this intensely amusing, considering your theoretical fighter only comes up with these defensive measures after the offensive ones have been provided.

I believe that is the Definition of a Shroedinger's Character, in D&D forum usage.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-27, 10:45 PM
I believe that is the Definition of a Shroedinger's Character, in D&D forum usage.

Unfortunately, it is. These threads do have the unfortunate tendency to never go anywhere, but we can hope for something like the Monkening, at least.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 10:45 PM
Same place you memorized enough acid Arrow spells to kill a 20th level fighter from.

Contact Other Plane?


at 13th level, acid arrow lasts 5 rounds (10 extended), and deal about 4 points of damage per round.

A 20th level fighter will have ~200 hit points (assuming 20 con), You'll need 50 rounds worth of Acid Arrows to kill the fighter, all other things being equal.
That's an awful big resource investment on something that can, and will, be countered.
5 2nd level spell slots (got that), 2 lesser rods of Extend (6000 gp)



My point is, for all these strategies you have, you, as a 13th level wizard, can only try so many of them before you run out of resources.

The Fighter can have counters to all of them combined, and still have plenty left over.
Prove it and make a build that does so. I don't think you have enough WBL for all those items you said your fighter had.


Unfortunately, it is. These threads do have the unfortunate tendency to never go anywhere, but we can hope for something like the Monkening, at least.
I'm working off of a character sheet (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=30608) myself.

taltamir
2009-10-27, 10:49 PM
Not true. The cat could be alive. But the point is that it's both dead and alive until we open the box and check. Then the superposition collapses and the cat is either alive or dead.

1. thought experiments are not real scientific experiments
2. the cat is not both, ever. It is one or the other, we just don't know which.

AstralFire
2009-10-27, 10:50 PM
This many posts about the subject on a D&D dominated forum and no Schrodinger's Lich?

Mikeavelli
2009-10-27, 10:51 PM
I have to say, I find this intensely amusing, considering your theoretical fighter only comes up with these defensive measures after the offensive ones have been provided.

And the Wizard is only coming up with these offensive measures after I've shown their more obvious offensive measures have been proven useless.

What's your point?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 10:53 PM
And the Wizard is only coming up with these offensive measures after I've shown their more obvious offensive measures have been proven useless.

What's your point?

All offensive measures are part of an already made character that I had been using for a pvp last night.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-27, 10:54 PM
And the Wizard is only coming up with these offensive measures after I've shown their more obvious offensive measures have been proven useless.

What's your point?

More obvious does not mean all. You've also mention said defenses only after the offense was mentioned. Being reactive is not nearly as useful as being proactive in combat.

BSPiotr
2009-10-27, 10:56 PM
1. thought experiments are not real scientific experiments
2. the cat is not both, ever. It is one or the other, we just don't know which.

1) Well no, but this experiment has been pretty much done with electrons and photons already. Even if you shoot one photon at a time they still display the same behavior as several photons at a time - quantum superposition and all that jazz DOES mean that you just wont know until you check, and then you know because its what you saw.
2) Incorrect. The Cat is neither - its in a superposition of both states. That is until we check on its condition. Then it collapses and we have our answer. The more amusing fact about this experiment is that if you had tons of cats with tons of machines, the function wouldn't change =D


This many posts about the subject on a D&D dominated forum and no Schrodinger's Lich?

See above for the first thing you need - multiple cats-in-a-negative-energy-box. Also you may want to become a posilich, just to screw with people.

AstralFire
2009-10-27, 10:57 PM
http://shamusyoung.mu.nu/images/comic_lotr73b.jpg

Dairun Cates
2009-10-27, 11:00 PM
Versus topic.

On the internet.

For a hobby/special interest.

You were expecting maybe the great debates?

Pretty much this. I occasionally eye these topics to see some of the ideas on character creation my own personal theory and notes, but I really don't take them seriously.

There's so much inherent bias here that any actual test is going to be riddled with margins of error. The terms of the test are being set by those with opinions. You'd literally have to find two gamers of equal skill that made the characters without thought of the encounter ahead to really test this. This is, of course, pretty damn impossible, and really hard to even get close.

So, the best examples would be one's from actual gameplay and statistics on that, but no one really records percentages from their gameplay sessions. Anecdotal evidence isn't exactly rock solid proof.

I can tell you that I've personally had experience with someone playing a Batman wizard around level 13 in an actual campaign, and it didn't go nearly as well as the guy thought it would. Opponents with high SR, Golems, and Undead gave him a real problem (and this was in Eberron. So, this was pretty freakishly common). He could survive the encounter just fine, but he wasn't contributing much in the actual fights. In a lot of cases, it was a matter of not having any major damage output when he ran out of spells. If we let his lower level spells do the job for damage, the entire party would die. So, his biggest contribution mostly came in using teleport to get us in and out of dungeons.

I can give you the details of a lot of encounters, but it's still anecdotal at best. This is hardly scientific rigor here.

Mikeavelli
2009-10-27, 11:05 PM
All offensive measures are part of an already made character that I had been using for a pvp last night.

You didn't have 5 Acid Arrows and enough glitterdust spells memorized to guarantee striking down someone with blindness last night.


More obvious does not mean all. You've also mention said defenses only after the offense was mentioned. Being reactive is not nearly as useful as being proactive in combat.

All the fighter needs to do is hit the wizard with his sword. Any round in which the fighter is not inconvenienced by the wizard casting something, the Fighter is charging towards the wizard and attacking.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-27, 11:07 PM
You didn't have 5 Acid Arrows and enough glitterdust spells memorized to guarantee striking down someone with blindness last night.
I'm flattered that you have been following my personal life to such a degree.

If you'll excuse me, I am going to call the police now.


All the fighter needs to do is hit the wizard with his sword. Any round in which the fighter is not inconvenienced by the wizard casting something, the Fighter is charging towards the wizard and attacking.
If only there were ways to inconvenience the fighter and make the engagement happen on your terms.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-27, 11:08 PM
All the fighter needs to do is hit the wizard with his sword. Any round in which the fighter is not inconvenienced by the wizard casting something, the Fighter is charging towards the wizard and attacking.

So, the fighter's win button is to hit his opponent, really really hard and hope the magic bird doesn't teleport the wizard out of sword's length? This is a problem. HP are cheap, so, unless Mr. Fighter drops Captain Wizard with one mighty blow, then odds are he will be "inconvenienced," as it were.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:11 PM
Not true. The cat could be alive. But the point is that it's both dead and alive until we open the box and check. Then the superposition collapses and the cat is either alive or dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat

Yes, the cat could be alive in the box, and in one interpretation of QM, it is both alive and dead until the wave function collapses. But the key point to the thought experiment is that observing the system at all changes the outcome... hence if you open the box, the cat dies for sure.

BSPiotr
2009-10-27, 11:15 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat

Yes, the cat could be alive in the box, and in one interpretation of QM, it is both alive and dead until the wave function collapses. But the key point to the thought experiment is that observing the system at all changes the outcome... hence if you open the box, the cat dies for sure.

Yes, the cat could be alive or dead in the box, and in QM, it is in a superposition of being both alive and dead until the wave function collapses. But the key point to the thought experiment is that observing the system at all changes the outcome... hence if you open the box, you know whether or not the cat is dead or alive (but not what it was a moment before) for sure.

/fixed

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-27, 11:17 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat

Yes, the cat could be alive in the box, and in one interpretation of QM, it is both alive and dead until the wave function collapses. But the key point to the thought experiment is that observing the system at all changes the outcome... hence if you open the box, the cat dies for sure.

Alive and dead, changing to alive or dead, is changing the outcome.

And yes, to those unfamiliar with it, it makes no sense from a logical perspective, but it really is how quantum mechanics work.

ghostaxe
2009-10-27, 11:17 PM
Sigh, I have to research sources to cite now. From Wikipedia, uncertainty principle:

That sounds an awful lot about observation of position changing momentum, and observation of momentum changing position. Hm. Wikipedia must be wrong then?

You focus too much on the initial wordings, and not enough on the why. 'Observers cannot observe without altering the subject' was a core hypothesis of the theory, and a contributing factor of its creation. And Heisenberg proved it in 1927.

Please cite source for your "most important" aspect of Schroedinger's Cat, not that it has any relevance on the discussion, or the entirely independent definition of a Shroedinger Character in D&D. After all, for something so important and intrinsic to the theory, it's unusual that I can't locate a cite with a few minutes of searching.

So back up your point.

Oy. The Heisenberg Uncertainty principle isn't a principle like "Do unto other as you wish done unto you." It's an equation

Delta x * Delta p >= h / 2

That has nothing to do with observations, except insofar as when you make an observation, you decrease the Delta x or Delta p. If you read the Feynman Lectures on Physics, it gives some great examples about how you can take measurements (giving yourself information) but then intentionally lose the information and restore the system to its uncertain state.

BSPiotr
2009-10-27, 11:20 PM
Sir, the uncertainty principle is the entire reason why cars longer than the length of a garage can fit inside before both doors swing shut at only-a-fraction-of-a-second difference in time and the same reason why your greatsword doesn't go through two opponents even if its large sized :P

If you lose information about the state, then the state is no longer that which you measured. Its analogous to taking the temperature of water that would instantly be boiling the next moment - you can only get so much information due to the principle itself. Its fluid, like electron clouds, and cloudkill.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-27, 11:26 PM
Sir, the uncertainty principle is the entire reason why cars longer than the length of a garage can fit inside before both doors swing shut at only-a-fraction-of-a-second difference in time and the same reason why your greatsword doesn't go through two opponents even if its large sized :P

If you lose information about the state, then the state is no longer that which you measured. Its analogous to taking the temperature of water that would instantly be boiling the next moment - you can only get so much information due to the principle itself. Its fluid, like electron clouds, and cloudkill.

Wait, so have the schroedinger fighter and schroedinger wizard led us to the legendary Schroedinger Schroedinger?