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deuxhero
2009-10-27, 02:31 PM
I know survivor has 0/4ths BAB, are there any other oddball classes?

Fax Celestis
2009-10-27, 02:31 PM
War Hulk gets 0/10 BAB, IIRC.

Fluffles
2009-10-27, 02:37 PM
But they get 2 Strength every level :smallsigh:

Bayar
2009-10-27, 02:39 PM
But they get 2 Strength every level :smallsigh:

You cant power attack with 2 STR every level, nor can you make multiple attacks.

LibraryOgre
2009-10-27, 03:04 PM
You cant power attack with 2 STR every level, nor can you make multiple attacks.

You don't really need to. 2 Strength per level means you get +1 to hit and +1 to damage... or +1.5 to damage if you're using a two-hander. Now, use, you get +2 to damage with a point of power attack, but you also reach a point of diminishing returns... where dropping your BAB makes it highly unlikely you won't hit. With a point of strength, you're getting a to-hit bonus and only down .5 points of damage... and you've already got your BAB from your previous classes to fall back on.

As for iterative attacks... far less important, especially if you're power-attacking for any amount. They're not as likely to hit, meaning they're often going to be wasted die rolls.

The main obstacle to less BAB? Feat qualification.

Person_Man
2009-10-27, 03:07 PM
You cant power attack with 2 STR every level, nor can you make multiple attacks.

Also, Divine Power (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinepower.htm).

Somewhat on topic, Commoner (www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/commoner.htm) gets 10/20 BAB but all weak Saves.

Bayar
2009-10-27, 03:16 PM
Well, unless you go with cleric>>war hulk, you cant have Divine Power on you. Because you probably wouldnt UMD a wand of Divine Power as a War Hulk.

And Power attack doesnt really get really terrible in time with other stuff added like Leap attack.

But yeah, ok, +2 STR is cool at each level.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-27, 03:18 PM
Also, Divine Power (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinepower.htm).

Somewhat on topic, Commoner (www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/commoner.htm) gets 10/20 BAB but all weak Saves.

But Warhulk can't use UMD as that is a Cha skill.

Are you suggesting Warhulk dip into Cleric?

jiriku
2009-10-27, 03:24 PM
WARHULK SMASH!!!

Seriously, when you can uproot a pine tree and use it to hit three guys at once as a standard action, who needs power attack or iterative attacks?

Fluffles
2009-10-27, 03:27 PM
Gestault War Hulks are awesome. Nothing more to it :)

Akal Saris
2009-10-27, 03:31 PM
Zhentarim Skymage has a weird BAB progression if I recall. It's weak BAB +1 or something, I've seen it on 1-2 other 3.0 PrCs as well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-27, 03:47 PM
As for iterative attacks... far less important, especially if you're power-attacking for any amount. They're not as likely to hit, meaning they're often going to be wasted die rolls.Not just that, but you often aren't in a position to take iteratives. Some builds try to get around this through swift action movement etc, but I'd treat War Hulk like a ToB class, always using the move action for something.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-10-27, 03:56 PM
This War Hulk intrigues me... my google-fu has failed me.

What book is said class from?

UglyPanda
2009-10-27, 04:06 PM
War Hulk is from Miniatures Handbook.

Myou
2009-10-27, 04:20 PM
This War Hulk intrigues me... my google-fu has failed me.

What book is said class from?

Ten levels, +20 Str but +0 BaB, lets you make a single attack against all enemies within reach. Interesting class. :3

Person_Man
2009-10-27, 04:37 PM
Well, unless you go with cleric>>war hulk, you cant have Divine Power on you. Because you probably wouldnt UMD a wand of Divine Power as a War Hulk.

Warhulk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) (scroll down to read).

The DC for activating a wand is 20, and is fixed at that number. Even if you invest in UMD cross class and have a mediocre Cha, you have a reasonably good probability of hitting the DC by mid levels.

A custom magic item can add +10 to any Skill.

Item Familiar feat: Can drastically boost one Skill (such as UMD), and gains other powers as you gain levels. Unearthed Arcana.

Magic Device Attunement feat: Once you successfully use an item with UMD, you can auto use it without a check for the rest of the day. Complete Mage pg 44.

Arcane Schooling feat: You’re treated as having one level of one arcane class for the purpose of activating spell trigger items. I understand that Divine Power is a divine spell, and thus doesn't apply. I'm just including this for completeness. Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 33.

If you have a Marshal in the party, everyone can gain his Cha bonus to all Cha based Skills and checks.

There are also a bunch of feats and items (some of them cheap) that add miscellaneous bonuses to Skills and/or Charisma based checks.

Or you can dip 1 level into Cleric, although I would consider that a waste, given the numerous other options you have.

Sploosh
2009-10-27, 04:46 PM
Warhulk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) (scroll down to read).

The DC for activating a wand is 20, and is fixed at that number. Even if you invest in UMD cross class and have a mediocre Cha, you have a reasonably good probability of hitting the DC by mid levels.

A custom magic item can add +10 to any Skill.

Item Familiar feat: Can drastically boost one Skill (such as UMD), and gains other powers as you gain levels. Unearthed Arcana.

Magic Device Attunement feat: Once you successfully use an item with UMD, you can auto use it without a check for the rest of the day. Complete Mage pg 44.

Arcane Schooling feat: You’re treated as having one level of one arcane class for the purpose of activating spell trigger items. I understand that Divine Power is a divine spell, and thus doesn't apply. I'm just including this for completeness. Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 33.

If you have a Marshal in the party, everyone can gain his Cha bonus to all Cha based Skills and checks.

There are also a bunch of feats and items (some of them cheap) that add miscellaneous bonuses to Skills and/or Charisma based checks.

Or you can dip 1 level into Cleric, although I would consider that a waste, given the numerous other options you have.

War Hulks are always considered having 0 ranks in char, wis or int based skills, including UMD. Meaning you would need to reach a reliable check mod without any ranks in the ability.

Charlie Kemek
2009-10-27, 04:54 PM
War Hulks are always considered having 0 ranks in char, wis or int based skills, including UMD. Meaning you would need to reach a reliable check mod without any ranks in the ability.

but you could be a class that can take 10 on UMD checks, like warlocks, or that other class that I forget at the time. then all you need is to be able to get an items, etc. that total to +10 to UMD.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 05:09 PM
There are 4 BAB progressions listed in the DMG; "no BAB" is one of them. So they aren't really anomalies.

Myou
2009-10-27, 05:19 PM
War Hulks are always considered having 0 ranks in char, wis or int based skills, including UMD. Meaning you would need to reach a reliable check mod without any ranks in the ability.

Why do they get such a crippling restriction? I mean, even to spot rolls?! And at all times?! Even when sitting at home by the fire a War Hulk can't be any good with those skills.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-27, 05:24 PM
Why do they get such a crippling restriction? I mean, even to spot rolls?! And at all times?! Even when sitting at home by the fire a War Hulk can't be any good with those skills.

Yes, War Hulk are always near sighted. They can be fooled ny any lie.
So Hulking Hurling combgo was actually axed by this fact.

You can't hurl at something you can't see or take 50% miss chance. Granted, spot checks aren't counted during combat so it just means they always walk into ambushes and are always surprised.

Eldariel
2009-10-27, 05:26 PM
Yes, War Hulk are always near sighted. They can be fooled ny any lie.
So Hulking Hurling combgo was actually axed by this fact.

You can't hurl at something you can't see or take 50% miss chance. Granted, spot checks aren't counted during combat so it just means they always walk into ambushes and are always surprised.

They just have 0 ranks; they can make checks just fine. Also, it's worth noting that Hulking Hurler can make Area Attacks meaning it doesn't really matter if he sees the target or not; just one of the billion reasons they are the best martial types in the game.

Fishy
2009-10-27, 07:46 PM
Chameleons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) have 3 bad saves and Rogue BAB, but they make it up with their unnamed bonuses from Aptitude Focus and Ability Boon. Also fun in a gestalt.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-27, 08:12 PM
Disciple (and Squire) of Legend also have both have average BAB and all poor saves, but, depending on which Legend you're focusing on, you get some sort of bonus to the related save, not unlike the Grace class feature of Swashbucklers.

Mongoose87
2009-10-27, 08:28 PM
COuld there not be some serious shenanigans for a fighter-type, if they take War Hulk at Epic levels? I mean, as far fighter-type shenanigans go.

AstralFire
2009-10-27, 09:07 PM
The Epic Level Handbook could potentially be named:

Tome of Shenanigans:
The Book of Seeing Who Gets Screwed By The System and Who's the Power Drill

So. I..... dunno. Any 'Shenanigans' at epic level with anything kinda fail to impress me.

Mongoose87
2009-10-27, 09:10 PM
I'm just saying, class Bab progression doesn't matter, so you're essentially taking a class that gives you free +20 str, the equivalent of 20 Epic Feats.

AstralFire
2009-10-27, 09:12 PM
This is true, but they also thought Armor Skin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#armorSkin) was an epic feat, even though Improved Natural Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalArmor) already existed.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-27, 09:21 PM
How would No Time to Think interact with an Item Familiar?

Jack_Simth
2009-10-27, 09:21 PM
But Warhulk can't use UMD as that is a Cha skill.

Are you suggesting Warhulk dip into Cleric?

Nah - Rings of Spell Storing and a party cleric work better.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-27, 09:34 PM
How would No Time to Think interact with an Item Familiar?

Badly. You can only have a maximum bonus to a given skill equal to your ranks, and since the War Hulk has 0 ranks, it's useless.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-27, 10:45 PM
Nah - Rings of Spell Storing and a party cleric work better.Not really. That's expensive and depends a lot on help from another, which may not be possible. A dip in Cleric, though, nets you Turn Undead(meaning Divine feats), the ability to use Wands of Cleric spells(Divine Power and Lesser Vigor come to mind), and at least 2 domains with their granted powers. It's actually one of the most powerful 1-level dips a meleer can do even if he never casts a spell.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-27, 11:01 PM
This is true, but they also thought Armor Skin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#armorSkin) was an epic feat, even though Improved Natural Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalArmor) already existed.
Well, that difference of obtaining an initial natural armor bonus was an important one at the time the book was being written. Then a couple years later came Unearthed Arcana with their LA reduction rules, and suddenly taking Catfolk (LA+1) with their +1 natural armor became much more reasonable. With LA buyoff, by the time the party gets to level 10 the Catfolk PC is less than 1/3 of a level behind the others.

But before that, obtaining natural armor usually meant gimping your character's development.

AstralFire
2009-10-27, 11:03 PM
Well, there's also the fact that depending on how you read the information given in spells like Barkskin and Amulets of Natural Armor, everyone already qualified for the INA. (Definitely not RAI, though, and if it wasn't such a weak feat I would amend it so that was respected.)