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Temotei
2009-10-28, 01:49 AM
Could someone name all of the problems with the monk I miss?
*d8
*3/4 BAB
*Quivering Palm has a terrible save DC with most monsters being able to save easily
*Slow Fall is too situational
*Flurry of Blows requires a full-round action
*Speed bonus doesn't work well with Flurry of Blows
*MAD
*Limited magical ability in terms of weapons (Magic Fang, Greater)
*AC bonus isn't enough to help keep the monk on the front line, especially with d8 HD

That's all I can think of right now.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-28, 01:57 AM
*The ability to start thread wars

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-28, 01:58 AM
Could someone name all of the problems with the monk I miss?
*d8
*3/4 BAB
*Quivering Palm has a terrible save DC with most monsters being able to save easily
*Slow Fall is too situational
*Flurry of Blows requires a full-round action
*Speed bonus doesn't work well with Flurry of Blows
*MAD
*Limited magical ability in terms of weapons (Magic Fang, Greater)
*AC bonus isn't enough to help keep the monk on the front line, especially with d8 HD

That's all I can think of right now.All? That's a lot, and the combination of them is the problem, with MAD being the worst for making the others worse.
They have poor AC(no armor, MAD), poor AB(3/4ths BAB, no magic weapons, MAD), poor damage(unarmed scales poorly, MAD, no magic weapons, can't PA), no ability to use special attacks(3/4ths BAB, MAD, no proficiency with most 2-handers), and no spellcasting. The monk has decent non-AC non-HP defenses, I'll admit, they just can't do anything.

sonofzeal
2009-10-28, 02:00 AM
* Monk weapons almost invariably suck (the Sai gets a +4 to disarm, but a -4 for being light; shurikens are pretty pointless except for 1d2 Crusaders; none of them are designed to be used as the sort of two-handed weapon that would most benefit a Monk).

* Defensive-based class features (saves, SR, AC) don't help you win fights, they just prolong the inevitable

Eldariel
2009-10-28, 02:06 AM
Could someone name all of the problems with the monk I miss?
*d8
*3/4 BAB
*Quivering Palm has a terrible save DC with most monsters being able to save easily
*Slow Fall is too situational
*Flurry of Blows requires a full-round action
*Speed bonus doesn't work well with Flurry of Blows
*MAD
*Limited magical ability in terms of weapons (Magic Fang, Greater)
*AC bonus isn't enough to help keep the monk on the front line, especially with d8 HD

That's all I can think of right now.

All the latter Monk class features are too few times per day. Abundant Step (1/day), Quivering Palm (1/WEEK!), Wholeness of Body (too little; tie it to an ability score or something), etc. All of them should probably be e.g. tied to Wisdom so high Wis Monks get more of 'em.

Also, Perfect Self makes you an Outsider which means you no longer qualify for Enlarge Person. And is completely useless 'cause DR 10/Magic ain't happening. Make it DR 10/Chaotic or something.


Oh, and Monks stop gaining bonus feats after level 6. What's up with that?

FMArthur
2009-10-28, 02:14 AM
They can do a lot for an early melee class. But nothing they do helps anything else they do. There's zero synergy.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-28, 04:01 AM
Their abilities are all over the place, with no synergy between most of them. Plus they're mostly unique. Why does the Monk get Still Mind, thereby not qualifying for things that need Slippery Mind?

The weapons are just bizarre. While the intent was to duplicate some Asian weapons, the end result was just a mish-mash. Not having proficiency with at least simple weapons is very bad.

lord_khaine
2009-10-28, 04:20 AM
*The ability to start thread wars

This one is properly the worst one, the others are not that bad again.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-28, 04:40 AM
Let's go down the line here:

*d8 -as does a cleric

*3/4 BAB -as does a cleric

*Quivering Palm has a terrible save DC with most monsters being able to save easily - Imprecise, but valid. All of a monk's special save or X are keyed of Fort saves. Strong fort monsters cause them problems. These are very common.

*Slow Fall is too situational -and practically obviated by fly

*Flurry of Blows requires a full-round action -Imprecise. It's that flurry precludes use of movement more than anything. If you're flurrying, it generally means you spent a full round close to an enemy. That generally means it wanted you close, which means it feels it has the advantage in close. There are exceptions, but, with withdraw actions, cover, etc, it's possible to evade easily, and hard to use effectively, unless you render yourself vulnerable to attack.

*Speed bonus doesn't work well with Flurry of Blows -I wouldn't call this a weakness, persay. It's possible to use the one to set up the other. Still, use of one means you're not using the other in any particuar round.

*MAD -Probably the big one. When AC, HP, accuracy, skills, and many other things are largely based on stats, and those stats are different, the result is either sacrificing multiple of the above, or sacrificing being on the leading edge of all of them.

*Limited magical ability in terms of weapons (Magic Fang, Greater) -Weapon enhancements are harder to obtain, and good ones are really good.

*AC bonus isn't enough to help keep the monk on the front line, especially with d8 HD -[i]I can see this. Rather, the investment requirement is disproportionately large, when compared to the gain. AC bonus from levels doesn't increase fast enough, from Wisdom, too hard to effectively pump.

As for thread wars? Eh.

In the monk's favor, eventual SR is a boon, against CR appropriate encounters.
Skillset is good, and skill points are solid enough to allow for a few skills, even if Int is dumped.

Can he be versatile? Yes. Can he be fun? Yes.

Will he be as effective in an individual role as a character more specialized for that role? Not likely.

TheCountAlucard
2009-10-28, 05:09 AM
Imprecise, but valid. All of a monk's special save or X are keyed of Fort saves. Strong fort monsters cause them problems. These are very common.Not to mention that so many monsters have a high number of hit dice, making it that much easier to make the save.


and practically obviated by flyEven fly is unnecessary; feather fall beats slow fall.


As for thread wars? Eh.Considering that so many monk threads get derailed and subsequently locked within days of their start, I say there's some pretty good evidence for it.


In the monk's favor, eventual SR is a boon, against CR appropriate encounters.The SR would be decent, but they still have to take a standard action to lower their SR to receive buffs.

elliott20
2009-10-28, 05:13 AM
did someone just cast "summon Giacomo"?

Starbuck_II
2009-10-28, 05:15 AM
*Limited magical ability in terms of weapons (Magic Fang, Greater)


You forgot Monks can use Magic Weapon and Greater version as well.

lord_khaine
2009-10-28, 05:17 AM
The SR would be decent, but they still have to take a standard action to lower their SR to receive buffs

The SR is decent, out of combat its not a issue, and in combat they are much more likely to be the target of hostile spells and spelllike abilites.


did someone just cast "summon Giacomo"?

Not yet, but im allready here.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-28, 05:18 AM
Not to mention that so many monsters have a high number of hit dice, making it that much easier to make the save.
High HD is less relevant. A Fey with high HD, or a wizard, is still gonna get eaten by this. The high HD, combined with High Con that is prevalent to big creatures, and the strong fort save... that's what makes fort monsters hard. It's a trifecta.


Even fly is unnecessary; feather fall beats slow fall.Yes. But Feather Fall isn't required reading for most adventurers above level 10.

Fly is.


Considering that so many monk threads get derailed and subsequently locked within days of their start, I say there's some pretty good evidence for it.Points to a lack of class in people, not a lack of strength in class. The civil threads tend to stay a while.


The SR would be decent, but they still have to take a standard action to lower their SR to receive buffs.
Everything has ups and downs. If they're casting their own buffs, they autopass. If not, then the party buffers would be wise to have spell penetration. Yes, SR has a weakness. But it is, on the whole, quite useful.

Blink does essentially the same thing for wizards. If you could have a class feature that granted blink with no miss chance for self, would you?

It's not quite as good as a caster's Spell Resistance spell... But it's 24/7, which is solid. Slightly lower SR, in exchange for "Always on".

Yeah, we can nitpick the buffs, but we can do that of anywhere. In core, it's not so easy to get LA 0 SR. Not for any real length of time.

Cyclocone
2009-10-28, 05:32 AM
In regards to the speed bonus: It's an Enhancement and thus doesn't stack with items, making it practically non-existent.

Additionally, the alignment requirement is quite puzzling, and the inability to properly multiclass is downright absurd.

Also: Tongue of the Sun and Moon. Not an actual drawback, but frankly, getting this at level 17 is just insulting.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-28, 05:54 AM
But it applies to all movement modes, and is 24 hours a day. At mid levels, it's like a permanent expeditious retreat on ground.

At upper levels, it's more, and applies to flying.

If you gain other movement modes (climb, burrow, swim), it applies to those too.

That there's a bit of overlap is meh. Not so big a deal. You skip out on the boots of speed, as you get the movement and extra attacks anyway.

Note: People say that Flurry (extra attacks on a full attack) + movement (enhancement) is a weakness.

People also say that Haste, which offers identical bonuses, is one of the awesomest spells around.

Yes, the monk has mechanical weaknesses. They're not in the nitpicking of their abilities. Rather, they're a class built for survival, with contribution put in as an afterthought. They can be built to be on par with a light optimization party... But in high optimization, they fall behind.

Not from speed weaknesses. Not from flurry synergy, or SR standard actions to get buffed.

It's primarily MAD and investment requirements for AC that make the class weak.

JellyPooga
2009-10-28, 06:01 AM
They can be built to be on par with a light optimization party... But in high optimization, they fall behind.

I couldn't agree more with this. I've played several Monks and all of them have contributed significantly to the game. Sure, it was lower level play where the Tier 1 classes aren't really shining yet and the games weren't "optimised" play, but in practice, the Monk isn't as bad as everyone makes out.

By comparision to other classes in a highly optimised game, yes, Monks do tend to fall by the wayside, for the reasons outlined by others, but in my experience they're about as good as any other class (by and large).

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-28, 06:08 AM
...but in my experience they're about as good as any other class (by and large).

I disagree. It takes a greater level of finesse and optimization to make a monk on par with other classes.

When other people are light optimizing, you are moderate optimizing.

When they moderately optimize, you're straining.

When they go high optimization, you're using exploits... and falling behind.

When you need more work for the same result, that's a sign that the class isn't as good, mechanically.

It's not as marked as many make it out to be, but it is there.

Ecalsneerg
2009-10-28, 07:11 AM
Let's go down the line here:

*d8 -as does a cleric

*3/4 BAB -as does a cleric

True, but clerics are spellcasters. Lower HP and BAB is fine, and with spells easily overcome. Monks are meant to be kung fu masters who train so hard they get supernatural powers... but evidently not so hard they fight as well as other melee-based classes.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-28, 07:19 AM
True, but clerics are spellcasters. Lower HP and BAB is fine, and with spells easily overcome. Monks are meant to be kung fu masters who train so hard they get supernatural powers... but evidently not so hard they fight as well as other melee-based classes.

Clerics also get Divine Power.

Ecalsneerg
2009-10-28, 07:47 AM
That'd be the easily overcome with spells part :P

Tyndmyr
2009-10-28, 07:49 AM
Note: People say that Flurry (extra attacks on a full attack) + movement (enhancement) is a weakness.

People also say that Haste, which offers identical bonuses, is one of the awesomest spells around.

That's because you haste the guy with full base attack bonus, so the extra attack actually hits.

Teron
2009-10-28, 08:21 AM
The psychic warrior and swordsage demonstrate that a warrior class can get along just fine with 3/4 BAB and d8 hit dice, if its abilities make up for it. Unfortunately, a few limited imitations of effects that spellcasters can produce better at lower levels can't begin to compare to psionic powers or maneuvers. The unarmed damage and AC progressions that so impress new players just compensate poorly for the weapons and armour it can't use effectively -- you need to reach level 12 just to match a greatsword's basic damage, and you still don't have the 1.5 Str, 2-for-1 Power Attack, or (in core) weapon enhancements beyond an overcosted +X that takes your neck slot. As for AC, at level 20 you effectively have a non-magical chain shirt, plus Wis and no max Dex -- but good luck exploiting those "advantages" without dumping Str or Con. You also can't get armour enhancements, like the life-saving fortification.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-28, 08:23 AM
That there's a bit of overlap is meh. Not so big a deal. You skip out on the boots of speed, as you get the movement and extra attacks anyway.

Note: People say that Flurry (extra attacks on a full attack) + movement (enhancement) is a weakness.

People also say that Haste, which offers identical bonuses, is one of the awesomest spells around.

Identical? Inconceivable.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Haste grants +1 to a save, hit, and AC.
Flurry has a penalty (at first till lv 9) to hit, and no save or AC bonus.

Haste buffs whole party... flurry is a personal ability.

If Monks could exchange Flurry for Haste at will: I bet 90% of Monks would take that deal.

streakster
2009-10-28, 08:34 AM
I always got the impression that when the designers had gotten about 4 levels into the Monk class they ran out of ideas and just threw in whatever anyone suggested.

"Hey guys, we need some more abilities for our martial artist class."

"How about letting them speak every language in the world?"

"Ooh, ooh! And they can teleport, and never catch diseases!"

"And they resist spells! And turn into an outsider!"

Blackfang108
2009-10-28, 08:35 AM
All? That's a lot, and the combination of them is the problem, with MAD being the worst for making the others worse.
They have poor AC(no armor, MAD), poor AB(3/4ths BAB, no magic weapons, MAD), poor damage(unarmed scales poorly, MAD, no magic weapons, can't PA), no ability to use special attacks(3/4ths BAB, MAD, no proficiency with most 2-handers), and no spellcasting. The monk has decent non-AC non-HP defenses, I'll admit, they just can't do anything.

Does anyone actually read feats anymore? PA specifically says it DOES work on Unarmed Strikes. Specifically.

Not that this makes the monk awesome, but it's something people NEED to stop spreading.

kjones
2009-10-28, 08:39 AM
There are literally dozens of threads that discuss this very topic in endless, tedious detail. Please look up one of those rather than rehashing the same goddamn arguments over and over again.

Seriously, everything that has been said in this thread has been said before. And I predict that everything that has yet to be said in this thread has also been said before - which won't be that much, because this thread will be locked soon, just like the other one.

Teron
2009-10-28, 08:40 AM
Power Attack is worthless at a 1-to-1 ratio with a typical monk's attack bonus. By "can't PA", Sstoopidtallkid probably meant "can't PA worth a damn".

Blackfang108
2009-10-28, 08:43 AM
Power Attack is worthless at a 1-to-1 ratio with a typical monk's attack bonus. By "can't PA", Sstoopidtallkid probably meant "can't PA worth a damn".

Then he sould say that. Because saying they "can't PA" is misinformation at best.

It's still possible to PA with an unarmed strike.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-28, 08:47 AM
Then he sould say that. Because saying they "can't PA" is misinformation at best.

It's still possible to PA with an unarmed strike.

We also need to stop spreading rumors that wizards can't melee.

Optimystik
2009-10-28, 08:48 AM
But... four attacks!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-28, 10:37 AM
Then he sould say that. Because saying they "can't PA" is misinformation at best.

It's still possible to PA with an unarmed strike.I thought that fell into the same category as me saying "can't do anything in combat". They technically can, just not much.

Shadwen
2009-10-28, 10:40 AM
The biggest problem:

*ok open your book go to the monk, look at the gains...now tear the page out..and throw it away. Its a piece of crap.

Salanmander
2009-10-28, 11:08 AM
The biggest problem:

*ok open your book go to the monk, look at the gains...now tear the page out..and throw it away. Its a piece of crap.

Nah, not entirely a piece of crap.

If you enjoy optimizing characters, but don't care about maximum power level, monks can be very fun to build. They can also help if you're in a group with a generally lower level of optimization than you.

More than that, though, some people (myself included) just find monks very fun to play. I like playing melee characters, and I like having lots of different options. Before tome of battle, monks were one of the best classes for this, especially at low levels.

Also, you forget one important thing: monks are pretty awesome as a second half of your gestalt character.

Andras
2009-10-28, 12:27 PM
The biggest problem:

*ok open your book go to the monk, look at the gains...now tear the page out..and throw it away. Its a piece of crap.

Now, now, it can be a good 1- or 2-level dip for certain things. And the monk/caster PrCs are pretty cool.

Also, monk in gestalt is solid, because you can make up for a significant number of the problems.

Brendan
2009-10-28, 01:29 PM
At epic level, most monsters have at least DR 5/epic Monks never have epic fists and never do more than 2d10 a hit. They become more useless than a fighter by that point. At least a fighter can overcome DR.

sonofzeal
2009-10-28, 01:32 PM
At epic level, most monsters have at least DR 5/epic Monks never have epic fists and never do more than 2d10 a hit. They become more useless than a fighter by that point. At least a fighter can overcome DR.

Improved Ki Strike [Epic]
Prerequisites
Wis 21, Ki strike (adamantine).

Benefit
Your unarmed strikes are treated as epic magic weapons for the purposes of damage reduction.

Faleldir
2009-10-28, 02:07 PM
Because a huge chart of "better than nothing" abilities can't compete with one really effective ability. Monks are the guy who practices 10000 kicks once.

Paulus
2009-10-28, 03:18 PM
Lets not mention other threads in this thread, which include all theoretical threads before or after it, that is what keeps getting these threads locked. Monks may need a lot of optimization to even be effective when others are optimizing, but I've said it once, so I'll say it again.

You can play one as much as you like if you and your group don't care about who is doing what or bringing what to the table, because YOU the person, the PLAYER is all that needs to be brought to the table to have fun.

Now, that being said as my official fun over effectiveness disclaimer, there is much to be said about your own enjoyment. What level of enjoyment you yourself require to have fun. The monk is fine at lower levels, but around level ten, same old item dependency and overall random abilities seem to make the monk a real hit or miss. The best way to combat this is to work on lessening MAD.

I'd suggest going for Dex instead of STR, max out your dex for dodge which synergiezes with your AC bonus. Max out your int for skills (like UMD) take Kung Fu Genius to have that high INT work for your AC and such, which lessens your dependence on wisdom. And then take Weapon finesse for that lovely Dex to attacks.

Conversely you can take intuitive strike to apply Wis to attack, which would allow you to pump wisdom for attack and defense, but you'll loose out on the Dex bonus to ac and you'll miss out on the extra skill points for other things.

UMD can be a cure all for this as well, with Wands of Divine Power, and greater mighty Wallop. It takes some bandaids, and a bit of elbow grease, but it is doable. Not as easily or thoroughly doable as other classes, but still doable.

At least, in my opinion. There is only so much you can do for poor design. No matter how much you want to play a core monk.

Brendan
2009-10-28, 05:29 PM
Improved Ki Strike [Epic]
Prerequisites
Wis 21, Ki strike (adamantine).

Benefit
Your unarmed strikes are treated as epic magic weapons for the purposes of damage reduction.

They need a feat to even have a chance of being useful. A chance.

Temotei
2009-10-28, 05:39 PM
Thanks, guys. This thread helped a lot with the final thoughts for my homebrew Radiant Monk class. :smallsmile:

Indon
2009-10-28, 05:57 PM
In case you're not done yet, add:

-The monk has a bunch of defensive abilities, and few powerful offensive abilities, in a game which heavily favors offensive abilities, and defenses which render you totally immune - not just resistant - to those abilities.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-28, 06:01 PM
In case you're not done yet, add:

-The monk has a bunch of defensive abilities, and few powerful offensive abilities, in a game which heavily favors offensive abilities, and defenses which render you totally immune - not just resistant - to those abilities.That said, the Monk makes a decent NPC. As a PC the issue is the Dwarven Defender issue, that the NPCs can just focus on the other players and ignore him. For NPCs, there are no other targets, and lack of impenetrable defenses or truly dangerous offenses means the PCs are guaranteed to win after a tough battle.

AshDesert
2009-10-28, 06:07 PM
Thanks, guys. This thread helped a lot with the final thoughts for my homebrew Radiant Monk class. :smallsmile:

One very important thing to remember for your homebrew is something I don't think I've seen yet. The Monk's higher base damage die doesn't make up for the utter lack of outside damage sources (Power Attack, Sneak Attack, heck, even Favored Enemy). This is also compounded by the fact that you get no weapon enhancements.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-28, 06:10 PM
One very important thing to remember for your homebrew is something I don't think I've seen yet. The Monk's higher base damage die doesn't make up for the utter lack of outside damage sources (Power Attack, Sneak Attack, heck, even Favored Enemy). This is also compounded by the fact that you get no weapon enhancements.Increase the number of special monk weapons(to include some 2-handers with special abilities) and make all special monk weapons deal the same damage as the monk's unarmed strike(ignoring INA and similar 'ghost' size increases).

Temotei
2009-10-28, 06:16 PM
You can check it out if you like. It's posted in the Homebrew section (fitting...), and ready for evaluation. :smallbiggrin:

chiasaur11
2009-10-28, 06:21 PM
Man. I want to play a monk based on Dan Hikibi.

It just fits so well.

ravenkith
2009-10-28, 06:36 PM
Granted, an unmodified monk can be extremely MAD.

But, Monk makes a fantastic offset class for gestalt.

Really.

Monk//Wizard - OR - Monk//Psion

Take Carmendine Monk Feat (COV) This allows you to sub Int for Monk abilities instead of Wis.
Benefit: Allows you to de-emphasize wisdom
Take Sleeping Tiger Monk Variant (Unearthed Arcana) which gives you Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative.
Benefit: Allows you to de-emphasize strength

Now INT and DEX are your primary abilities, followed by CON, STR, WIS and CHA, in that order.

Further Enhanced by 3 levels of swashbuckler for INT to damage if you want.

Current favored build:
Human
32 point buy
Monk 12//Psion +5/Swashbuckler 3//Psion 10/Metamind 10

Ends up yielding (with equipment and buffs) +30 in each save, 34/34/34/29/24 Flurry, something like 67 AC, 2d10 + 27 damage per hit, and PR/SR 32 @ level 20.

And that's not counting the fact that you are a full psionic caster with the unique features of the metamind class - most notably that 2/day, for a minute a time, you can manifest whatever powers you want without paying anything for it!

In regular games:
Monk X/Psychic Warrior X

Can be extremely beneficial, especially with Monastic Training (ECS)/Tashalatora(Secrets of Sarlona).

Taking these options allows you to pick up a few levels of monk for some seriously beneficial abilities.