[3.5] How would one make a Grappler?

[DragoonWraith]

I'm kind of curious how a Grappler is made in D&D; I suspect some Monk/Talashatora/PsyWar/Expansion shenanigans for the size thing, but is there more to it than that? Or is Totemist with Girallon Arms better, or can they be combined? What about Swordsage with Setting Sun - there's a lot of throws in there, is that worth it for a Grappler, or is that just like an alternative mechanic for the concept of a wrestling type character? On feats, Improved Grapple, OK, obvious - any other notable feats? Scorpion's Grasp seems really good...

Anyway, yeah, I can't find any decent guides on grappling around, which is a shame.

Also - I have a race chosen for this character. Is it impossible to do a good Grappler without some kind of racial bonus to Grapple or huge Str? Because it sort of seems that way, if the MM is anything to go by (everything with any kind of tendency to Grapple has huge Grapple bonuses)...

By the same token, would like to avoid shapechanging. In both cases, feel free to suggest things if only for my own edification, but I'd really appreciate suggestions that don't involve them.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There are 4 grapplers I've seen commonly cited. Talashtora, Totemist, Druid, and Cleric. Often it's recommended they take a race with large size or Powerful Build anyways.

[kamikasei]

I too am curious as to whether a Setting Sun (Unarmed?) Swordsage makes a good grappler. Don't their maneuvers include compensation for the problem of increasingly large opponents?

(Note that I'm not asking whether they can make a grappler for whom grappling is an optimal combat strategy compared to all others he might pursue, just one for whom it's viable in a fairly normal game.)

[Cieyrin]

Optimizing grappling means strength, size, more arms and BAB. Totemists succeed via more arms, psychic warriors/talashtora via strength and size and monsters by the same, plus BAB.

You could also probably succeed admirably by going Barbarian, which covers BAB and strength, occasionally size if you get Mountain Rage. More arms advantage can be gained by being Thri-Kreen, which'll stack with Totemist for more arms advantage above and beyond what's normally achievable.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[NEO|Phyte]

I came up with a fairly nonstandard grappler once.

Human Ghost Monk 5/Master of the Unseen Hand 5/Reaping Mauler 5.

Grapples stuff from 2000 feet with MIND BULLETStelekinesis.

[Master_Rahl22]

The Setting Sun maneuvers you're thinking of are the X Throw maneuvers, and they're trips, not grapples. Almost all of the same things apply to being good at tripping, it's just not specifically a grapple.

Goliaths are a great race if you want to focus on grapple/trip since they have an effective +8 to both of those.

Others have touched on what you need to be good at grappling, which is BAB, Strength, size, and more arms. Any way you can manage that will work.

[Fluffles]

Wait, where does the PHB/DMG say anything about more arms makes you grapple better? All it lets you do (as far as I know) is let you do more damage, which doesnt help if you cant keep a hold on something.

[Medic]

I would think that a Druid would fair well. Dire Bear alone is enough to make a mess.

Huge Size, High Strength, Improved Grab.

Throw in Improved Grapple and its looking pretty good.

[Glimbur]

Wait, where does the PHB/DMG say anything about more arms makes you grapple better? All it lets you do (as far as I know) is let you do more damage, which doesnt help if you cant keep a hold on something.

It's in the text of the sources of extra arms. For example, Girallion Arms, which is what the Totemist uses, gives explicitly a bonus on grapple checks. Arms of Plenty(Lords of Madness)... doesn't have such text. Girallion's Blessing, from Spell Compendium... doesn't either. The trick, then, must be Fuse Arms, which lets you turn many arms into fewer arms with more Str and therefore better grappling.

[Dimers]

Psychic warriors also have access to grip of iron: one power point for a +4 bonus, immediate action to manifest. Also, how about melee touch powers when you're already definitely touching the opponent? (I haven't seen a rule that specifically says "melee touch attacks always work in a grapple", so ask your GM before trying it out. If they agree that an attack roll is unnecessary, you'll need to establish what to do about crits.)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

There are 4 grapplers I've seen commonly cited. Talashtora, Totemist, Druid, and Cleric. Often it's recommended they take a race with large size or Powerful Build anyways.

I would also add Wizard going Malconvoker to this list for giant centipedes, even if they remain featless.

[Sinfire Titan]

It's in the text of the sources of extra arms. For example, Girallion Arms, which is what the Totemist uses, gives explicitly a bonus on grapple checks. Arms of Plenty(Lords of Madness)... doesn't have such text. Girallion's Blessing, from Spell Compendium... doesn't either. The trick, then, must be Fuse Arms, which lets you turn many arms into fewer arms with more Str and therefore better grappling.

Actually, the rule's in Sword and Fist. It was never updated, thus legal for 3.5 use.



A 20th level Totemist can auto-grapple a Gold Wyrm. And Big T.




Base Attack +15

Str of 38 (18 base+5 level+4 Racial+6 Enhancement+5 Inherent): +14

Girallon Arms Soulmeld (bound to Totem, affected by Totem Embodiment): +4 base, +2/essentia (every point counts twice, so effectively +4/essentia). Total modifier: +36 competence

Kraken Mantle Soulmeld (Bound to Arms): +6 untyped

Mauling Gauntlets (Shape Soulmeld, Double Chakra): +14 morale bonus on Str checks.

Improved Grapple: +4 untyped

Multiple Arms: +4 untyped

Total modifier: 93


That's before size category or spell effects kids.

Edit: AN error in the sources. The Mauling Gauntlets only give +14 because they have a capacity of 6, not 8. However, Girallon Arms qualifies you for the benefits from Sword and Fist for having 4 or more arms, so that's another +4.

[Fluffles]

Actually, the rule's in Sword and Fist. It was never updated, thus legal for 3.5 use.



A 20th level Totemist can auto-grapple a Gold Wyrm. And Big T.





That's before size category or spell effects kids.

Edit: AN error in the sources. The Mauling Gauntlets only give +14 because they have a capacity of 6, not 8. However, Girallon Arms qualifies you for the benefits from Sword and Fist for having 4 or more arms, so that's another +4.

What page in Sword & Fist? I totaloly need to shove that in my DMs face. I have the Insectile template for a total of 6 arms. And I use Girralon's blessing for a total of 8. I also use 8 handed weapons :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

Don't forget armor spikes so you can do some damage when you grapple without the -4 penalty. You can enchant them like a weapon too.

[Cieyrin]

What page in Sword & Fist? I totaloly need to shove that in my DMs face. I have the Insectile template for a total of 6 arms. And I use Girralon's blessing for a total of 8. I also use 8 handed weapons :smallbiggrin:

It's on page 62, under the Extra Limbs section.

As for using 8 hands on a weapon, that's covered on page 42 of Savage Species, under the Three or More Hands section. Two-handed weapons can take as many as 8 hands, which simply requires masterworking the weapon to do so. When doing so, you get a higher Strength bonus to damage than the two-handed bonus, increasing by .5 per extra hand. 8 hands means you apply 4.5 Str to damage.