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Shadwen
2009-10-28, 11:51 AM
How to make a cleric broken (amazingly powerful)

Aron Times
2009-10-28, 11:52 AM
Cleric 20.

Shadwen
2009-10-28, 11:53 AM
Explain.... 3.5 please

jokey665
2009-10-28, 11:56 AM
You take twenty levels of Cleric. Tah-dah! You're overpowered!

Mongoose87
2009-10-28, 11:57 AM
Spells+ DMM: Persist: Divine Power = Win.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-28, 12:01 PM
Spells+ DMM: Persist: Divine Power = Win.

Calm down. 'til now, you are vulnerable to a lot of dispel spells. You didn't fight Tanar'ri so much, did you?

If you want to really "break" it you have to raise your caster level, find the right items and the like.

Clerics are powerful, but the answers I've seen, I don't think are enough for the OP.

And anyway, break really a class needs a dumb DM, IMHO, OP. One thing is a theoretical thing, and the real gameplay.

kamikasei
2009-10-28, 12:04 PM
You may want to provide more context for your initial question. I take it it is a question? You're asking how one would make a cleric brokenly powerful in D&D 3.5 (as opposed to giving us a teaser to an explanation of your own soon to come)?

Well, clerics are full casters (ding!) with a spell list less powerful than wizards (aww!) but with no need to learn spells (ding!), only to prepare them, and automatically having access to all cleric spells in all available sources (ding!); furthermore, their buffs coupled to their proficiencies and domain powers mean they can be highly effective melee combatants as well as having spells which, if not as powerful as a wizard's, are certainly powerful enough to help them stomp all over a great many challenges.

So, "how to make a brokenly powerful cleric" boils down to "take twenty levels of cleric, or maybe some full casting PrCs if you feel like it, and use your spells to self-buff before wreaking havoc among your enemies via whichever of spell and sword you feel more like using at any given point". If you have access to Divine Metamagic, use the Persist Spell metamagic to make your buffs last all day by burning Turn Undead uses instead of upping their spell level. If you have Libris Mortis, use nightsticks to let you persist as many spells as you want.

Eldariel
2009-10-28, 12:25 PM
Get Spell-domain and Domain Spontaneity [PHBII]. That gives you insane spell access. Then just persist a bunch of spells with Beads of Karma & Divine Spell Power on each, wear Ring of Enduring Arcana and it'll be way over the maximum of Greater Dispel Magic to dispel any of your buffs.

Picking up Craft Rod is probably a good idea if going Nightstick stacking. Then just replicate best spells of all lists and maybe pick few more Domain Spontaneitys as feats and go to town. High CL, smart spell selection and buffage are the keys.


Oh...and if you want to truly be a kickass Cleric, Initiate of Mystra [PGtF] is the only right option. Combine with Dweomerkeeper [Complete Divine Web Enhancement] for massive insanity - enter with Arcane Training. Use Dweomerkeeper to bypass XP costs on spells (particularly Wishes and such) for massive benefit.

Shadwen
2009-10-28, 12:27 PM
Ouch, that sounds sexy...reading up on it now...gonna blow it up.

Milskidasith
2009-10-28, 12:29 PM
Are you intending to play this in a real game?

Don't. Theoretical optimization is fine. Finding a game where everybody plays optimized level 20 characters is fine. Showing up to a normal RL game with your buddies after making something that kills everything instantly is not fine (unless they agreed on it beforehand).

Shadwen
2009-10-28, 12:31 PM
I would not say buddies, just guys who i need to be able to do things at a high rate if needed. Its more for a jerk of a dm who doesnt know what he is talking about.

Brendan
2009-10-28, 12:46 PM
Take death domain, and beg Your DM for a feat that increases the death attack die size to D8. No save death at all levels.

Milskidasith
2009-10-28, 12:49 PM
Take death domain, and beg Your DM for a feat that increases the death attack die size to D8. No save death at all levels.

That would only average out to killing creatures with 10 con, the same HD as you, and d8 HD. Anything with more would still be immune.

JeenLeen
2009-10-28, 12:50 PM
Not discussing motives, but for optimization.

Dweomerkeeper is a PrC that I've heard is very good for Clerics since you can use Miracle as a spell-like ability, that is, without xp cost. At least, my DM banned it.

DMM: Persist can make a number of buffs persisted. Under one ruling (unsure if RAW or not), you can combind Persist and Extend for 48-hour buffs. There are basically two ways to maximize your daily turnings which fuel DMM.
1. Nightsticks from Libris Mortis. Due to the wording, having them gives +3 turns/day. Not holding them. Thus, you can buy as many as you need. Most DMs ban these or limit them to 1/day, from what I've heard.
2. Choose PrCs or dieties that give you multiple turning pools. For example, Bahamut and Obai-Hai both have Domains that let you turn non-undead in addition to undead. These are seperate turning pools, so each extra 'type' you can turn gives you another full set of turns/day. The down-side to this is these Domains are usually not as good for domain spells.

With DMM, you can easily have:
Divine Power - full BAB. This or another spell also makes you large.
Freedom of Movement - no grappling or other hindrances
True Seeing - costs 250 gp/day, but worthwhile
Vigor - automatic healing
Greater Visage of the Diety - flight, SR, and a lot else
and there's other buffs that are useful.


Not damage-dealing OP but useful for a party: If you want to be able to heal, the Combat Medic PrC from Heroes of Battle lets you spontaneously convert spells into 'Heal' as well as 'Cure x Wounds'.
Also, some DMM: Persistable buffs for the party include Recitation (SpCompedium), Elation (BoED?), and I think a group version of Vigor, although I'm not sure on the latter.

Brendan
2009-10-28, 01:22 PM
That would only average out to killing creatures with 10 con, the same HD as you, and d8 HD. Anything with more would still be immune.

However, a wizard with 14 con would usually die, and if you had already done some damage, it would be almost definite.

Milskidasith
2009-10-28, 01:23 PM
However, a wizard with 14 con would usually die, and if you had already done some damage, it would be almost definite.

That would be assuming that you can hit a wizard with a touch attack.

bosssmiley
2009-10-28, 03:47 PM
I would not say buddies, just guys who i need to be able to do things at a high rate if needed. Its more for a jerk of a dm who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Walk away and find a better group. Life is too short for bad game.

Google "CoDzilla" if you still want to break Cleric though.

Brendan
2009-10-28, 05:12 PM
Most wizards have fairly suckish AC, and while they excel in defense and their own protection, a dispell should get rid of them.

Eldariel
2009-10-29, 01:49 AM
Actually, saving myself time, here are some Char Ops Clerics you can fool around with:
The Twice-Betrayer of Shar (http://web.archive.org/web/20070305054327/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=478716) (and the present thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge_The_TwiceBetrayer_of_Shar) with ****ed up forum code)
Cheater of Mystra (http://web.archive.org/web/20080611084750/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=248239) (and the present thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872770/new_build_The_Cheater_of_Mystra))

They showcase some of the more impressive things Clerics can do. I hope you aren't intent on playing one outside an überoptimized game though. Those make for good reading to all who wonder how to effectively utilize Anti-Magic Field though; Twice-Betrayer in particular really showcases AMF's power as the ultimate defense for a spellcaster.



Most wizards have fairly suckish AC, and while they excel in defense and their own protection, a dispell should get rid of them.

Dispel Magic has a dispel check and is thus fairly easy to defend against (especially with morning caster level buffs and Ring of Enduring Arcana and the like). See also: Ring of Greater Counterspells.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-29, 03:35 AM
2. Choose PrCs or dieties that give you multiple turning pools. For example, Bahamut and Obai-Hai both have Domains that let you turn non-undead in addition to undead. These are seperate turning pools, so each extra 'type' you can turn gives you another full set of turns/day. The down-side to this is these Domains are usually not as good for domain spells.


I didn't think that worked. Reason being, the granted abilities are like normal turning, but not real turning. What is the general consensus on this?

Also, do night sticks stack?

Curmudgeon
2009-10-29, 05:10 AM
I didn't think that worked. Reason being, the granted abilities are like normal turning, but not real turning. What is the general consensus on this?

Also, do night sticks stack?
Sure, it works -- but not for purposes of divine feats (like Divine Metamagic), which specifically require undead turn attempts (sometimes expressed as "channel positive or negative energy"). A few feats (like Elemental Healing) work off other types of turn abilities instead. But you can't mix turn attempts of different types.

Nightsticks follow the same stacking rules as everything else.
Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). Two or more Nightsticks work the same as two or more castings of a spell -- which is to say, exactly the same as just one of each.

With a generous DM you could use more than one Nightstick in succession, but never more than one at a time. If you need more than the 4 turn attempts that one Nightstick can provide, the rest have to come from your own Cleric abilities. As Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) uses up 7 turn attempts for each spell, at least 3 of those have to come from your Cleric abilities rather than items each time.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-29, 05:18 AM
Vigor - automatic healing


Vigor has a duration maxed (25 rounds). Check spell compendium. Maybe is the 100th time I say it.

Killer Angel
2009-10-29, 05:23 AM
Also, the choice of domains is really important.
Healing domain? +1 lev. to healing spells? wow...:smallsigh:
Travel domain? automatic freedom of movement and domain' spells like teleport? here we are! :smallsmile:

Basically, any domain that gives access to spells not in the cleric' spells list, is OK.