PDA

View Full Version : Help with making a fun gestalt build



metalbear
2009-10-28, 01:28 PM
I am currently trying out gestalt for the first time and was hoping for some advise on building a character. Currently I am trying to decide between a melee/ skill monkey character and a magic/ melee character.

Right now I am thinking of playing a human fighter//rogue, but I'm not sure how long this will actually be fun.

-My DM is not a fan of TOB, but I'm going to try to convince him to allow it.
-Psionics are allowed, and my DM actually likes the psionic system.

Thorin
2009-10-28, 02:17 PM
I`d like to point out that there is a big difference between "fun" and "optimal"

I think that

Swashbuckler//Beguiler
Paladin of freedom//Sorc
Bard//Sorc
Cloistered cleric//Monk
Warlock//Rouge

are all great candidates to have lots of fun; but

warblade/psion
wizard/warblade
swordsage/cloistered cleric

are the ones to shine like a million-dollars-worth-penny

JellyPooga
2009-10-28, 02:28 PM
One I'm working on at the moment is a Wildshape Ranger//Scout/Daggerspell Shaper/Master of Many Forms

Wildshape Ranger provides you with Full BAB, some Spellcasting, Favoured Enemies and limited Wildshape (Medium and Small Animals only).

Scout provides some precious extra Skill Points, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and Skirmish. If you use the ACF from Dungeonscape, you can also grab yourself a 20ft Climb Speed that you can use in any form in place of the usual +10ft enhancement bonus to your land speed.

Daggerspell Shaper gives you a little Sneak Attack, an extra couple of Wild Shape uses, increases your Wildshape Size options to include Tiny and Large and (most importantly) allows you to add the Enchantments on any magical daggers you have to the Claw attacks of your Wild Shapes.

Master of Many Forms will give you (over 10 levels) 10 extra uses of Wild Shape, full range of Diminutive to Gargantuan Animals, Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, Giants, Fey, Vermin, Aberrations, Plants, Oozes, Elementals and Dragons, including their Extraordinary abilities.

The biggest advantage of this build in Gestalt is that the Wildshape Ranger progression on one side of the build allows your Wild Shape forms to have up to the maximum of 15HD forms, where in a non-gestalt, you will be limited to (probably) 10HD because Master of Many Forms doesn't stack with your Druid levels for duration or the maximum HD of your forms. Interestingly enough, because MoMF doesn't stack with Druid levels (or Wildshape Ranger in this case), but rather has the Improved Wild Shape ability, you get to stack the uses per day...so this particular build will have 18 uses of Wild Shape per day at 20th level (6 from Wild Shape Ranger, +2 from Daggerspell Shaper and +10 from MoMF). Not all that useful in and of itself, but when you start considering the posibilities of Wild Feats then having all those extra uses could come in handy.

As an alternative to Wild Shape Ranger, you could use Druid, which would have the advantage of getting the Full Spellcasting Progression of a Full-Caster and Elemental Wild Shape (which grants the supernatural and spell-like abilities of the form taken when it's used), but at the cost of skill points, Favoured Enemy and Full BAB. Taking Druid is strictly more powerful, but I prefer the Wild Shape Ranger myself.

Telonius
2009-10-28, 02:34 PM
If you can't convince him of Tome of Battle, Wizard//Monk is actually pretty good. Better skills, better saves, evasion, better attack bonus, better able to run away. Take the Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius feats (whichever is allowed) and you'll be able to apply Int to some of your Monk gimmicks.

CasESenSITItiVE
2009-10-28, 02:36 PM
depending on the leniency of your dm, i find paladin//bard quite fun

Gnaeus
2009-10-28, 02:40 PM
Magic/Melee usually has an advantage over skillmonkey/melee, because magic is usually stronger than skillmonkey. You usually want 1 full casting or manifesting class in any gestalt build that you expect to advance above about 5th level. In general, tho, as long as you have your bases covered (i.e. not melee/melee or wiz/sorc) most gestalt builds are ok.

You seem to understand that ToB> non ToB melee. If you can get it, you probably want it unless there is a good reason not to take it.

Are there other PCs? how high level will the game run to?

Eloel
2009-10-28, 02:42 PM
Someone asked for a SKILLMONKEY gestalt, and this hasn't come up yet? Guys, this forum is getting rusty.

Factotum//Psion
Factotum//Warblade
Factotum//Wizard


Skillmonkey in all flavors, all quite VERY powerful.

HereticNox
2009-10-28, 02:48 PM
I always have been partial to Factotum//Bard (with bardic knack alternative feature)/Sublime chord.

Pretty good casting, and you are a factotum with nice bonuses. Plus if you keep the factotum levels all the way you can enhance your casting with their nifty class abilities. You could stay for 10 bard levels, and get +5 bonus to all skills, plus your factotum level to it.

(Might need to check on the types of bonuses for factotum and bardic knack (which is in the PH2) to make sure they stack)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-28, 03:37 PM
Magic/Melee? Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/Wizard 1/anything 4//Warblade 16/Wizard 4(not in that order). You end up with IL 18, 20th level casting, Swiftblade 10, BAB 20, 3 good saves, and massive Int synergy.

PinkysBrain
2009-10-28, 04:02 PM
Right now I am thinking of playing a human fighter//rogue, but I'm not sure how long this will actually be fun.
I like rogues and if you don't mind using UMD to it's full potential you will have no problem keeping up with the characters with decent scaling systems build into the classes.

Without magic item/UMD optimization you will not make very good use of your actions and get off very few full attack sneak attacks though (which is what you will have to do to contribute on combat and contributing in combat is something any gestalt character should be expected to do).

The basic problem with the build is that fighter sucks, it's a broken class. Gestalt doesn't fix that.

- My DM is not a fan of TOB, but I'm going to try to convince him to allow it.
-Psionics are allowed, and my DM actually likes the psionic system.
Why not use Psychic warrior instead of fighter then?

PW 6/rogue X//Rogue 5/Slayer X (I swapped the rogue progression to the other side after 6, so the extra level of PW covers up the lost manifester level from Slayer). Bonus feats, only lose 2 BAB, a good will save progression ... so much better than using fighter.

As the saying goes, fighter is a 2 level class.

Noodles2375
2009-10-28, 04:16 PM
As someone else mentioned, fun and optimized for pillaging are obviously different. I've had a lot of fun playing a Paladin // Wilder.

Using Ranger with physic warrior:

Ranger 20 // Psychic Warrior 10/ Slayer 10

Can be both really fun and quite profitable.

I have a special place in my heart for the soulknife so I've always liked trying to pair him with class or classes that have full BAB. You could do something silly like this:
Ranger 11/ Fighter 4/ Occult Slayer 5 // Soulknife 20

Gets you two weapon fighting, weapon specialization with mindblade, permanent mind blank, full BAB, and if your DM allows psionic-magic transparency you have a capable mage/psion killer!

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-28, 04:23 PM
Good skillmonkey builds:

Beguiler//Conjurer/Master Specialist/whatever full spellcasting build you like

Ban Illusion and Enchantment for Conjurer, because Beguiler covers those bases, has Trapfinding, all the skills you could ask for, and some nifty stuff thrown in for good measure.

For extra fun, replace your Familiar with the ability to port all over the place

Scout/Ranger//Cleric/RSoP

Basically, you have your typical Scout/Ranger/Swift Hunter setup on one side, then Cleric/RSoP on the other side. You've also taken Travel Devotion for your skirmishing. Skirmish + Arrow Demon + Improved Manyshot = good times.

Alternately, use Wildshape Ranger for a more 'tanky' build. Who can still add Skirmish to all his attacks.

Scout/Ranger//Fighter/PsiWar/Slayer/Pyrokeneticist

This one is a bit more 'tankish'. You've got your Swift Hunter combo up on one side, then you've got a good beatstick on the other. He's got a boatload of feats, so you could easily get away with Spiked Chain + Power Attack + Improved Trip + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper fairly easily. Good damage output, good ability to take a hit, good survivability.

Rogue//Swordsage2/Barbarian

Simple, yet effective. Two dips into Swordsage. One at 2nd level so you can get Island of Blades, and one at 9th for Assassin's Stance.

This guy is your ultimate flanker. If he's got an ally anywhere near, he's probably flanking. Even while Raging. When he does have a 'perfect' flank, he switches to Assassin's Stance for more damage output. Cherry pick Complete Champion Lion Totem Barbarian for the Pounce, stay for the d12 HD and full BAB.

AshDesert
2009-10-28, 06:53 PM
If you want to go for a nature-themed magic//melee build, I once played a Wolf Totem Barbarian//Aspect of Nature Druid, focusing on Wis>Str>Con, with a little bit of Cha thrown in when I could for MOAR RAGE!!!1!!1 With a high Wis and Track thrown in for free, he actually had some pretty good synergy. Plus Druid buffs are really good on a melee character. Obviously a Spiked Chain went best with this build, and the Vigor aspect (+8 Str, -4 Dex) was really helpful for trip attempts.

Korivan
2009-10-28, 07:17 PM
A wizard/fighter, wizard/barbarion, or a wizard/swashbuckler, make for some nice gishes. The latter of the three focuses more on intelligence but the first two have some nice survivability. Pick PrC's that compliment using

Barbarion/druid, or barbarion/fighter-frenzied beserker, packs quite a punch.

Experimenting with duskblade/???? is nice.

Like others have said, there is a big difference between fun as in powerful and dominating like a Factotum/Wizard(incantrix, metaphysical spellshaper, archmage) or fun like Swashbuckler/barbarion(let the wacky fun zaney fun commence.)

Psyborg
2009-10-28, 07:37 PM
Gish: Bard / Seeker of the Song 2 / Sublime Chord // ToB class of choice / Arcane Duelist 2

Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the White Raven, Combine Songs (Dragonfire + Greatness, ideally). Throw on a Crystal Echoblade, Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, two-weapon fighting. Don't forget good alignment for Words of Creation. Warforged for subdual immunity is an interesting choice, but the Cha penalty hurts.

Stats emphasize Cha and Int. Take Keen Intellect at level 1 for Int to Will saves, Spot, Heal, Survival and Sense Motive and dump Wis.

Dragonfire Inspiration Bard is also scary when combined with summoning Druid.

ravenkith
2009-10-28, 07:52 PM
Some good combinations (assuming the right feats/PRCs):

Cleric//Rogue
Monk//Psion
Monk//Wizard
Paladin//Sorceror
Barbarian//Rogue
Monk//Psychic Warrior
Soulknife/Soulbow//Ranger

Dusk Eclipse
2009-10-28, 08:01 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned (just skimed the thread)

but Cloistered Cleric 20//scout5 ranger 15 is a nice build and you can take the travel and celerity domains for extra skirimish fun

Ormur
2009-10-28, 10:42 PM
I don't have a lot of experience with gestalt but I got the role of the skillmonkey in a 16th level campaign, although the result is probably more of a gish:
Lion Totem Barbarian1/Ranger4/Scout1/Daggerspell1/Scout9//Bard10/Sublime Chord2/Daggerspell4.

I hope pouncing, getting skirmish, two weapon fighting and two sets of touch spells in one attack will make something of a dent.

sonofzeal
2009-10-28, 10:55 PM
I really want to try a Fighter1/ScoutX//WarlockX now...

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-28, 11:25 PM
I'm playing an evolved undead (template) necropolitan kobold factotum//psion right now, and he's a blast to play (literally!). d12 makes for a good HD for a skillcastermonkey, he gets fast healing 3, and lots and lots and lots of things he can do, both in and out of battle.

And the only stat he needs to worry about is Intelligence. Though being an evolved undead would probably be better for a Cha-based character (due to the +2 Cha, of course).

And later on I get extra move actions (hustle), extra standard actions (schism and cunning surge), as well as additional (untyped) actions via Linked Power and Psicrystal Affinity. PA also gives extra skill bonuses when my psicrystal Aids Another (it has all my factotum skill ranks, yo!, not to mention inherent bonuses for Alertness and personality types).

Psychic warrior//totemist would be insane (and incredibly fun) for gestalt, allowing you to do some seriously crazy things via powers and soulmelds. It runs off of Wis and Con (and nothing else, really), grants lots of abilities, and plenty of skill bonuses. Very light on the item dependency, too, which is why you might consider going warforged (and Adamantine Body) and taking the Item Familiar or Ancestral Weapon feats. Throw that money into fun items, like decanters of endless water and immovable rods!

Pyron
2009-10-28, 11:31 PM
I wonder if an Aristocrat/Commoner gestalt would be viable?

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-28, 11:38 PM
I wonder if an Aristocrat/Commoner gestalt would be viable?

Commoner does nothing (except a couple of class skills), so it's exactly like a stock aristocrat.

Korivan
2009-10-28, 11:38 PM
I wonder if an Aristocrat/Commoner gestalt would be viable?

Role-play wise, I don't see why not. Though you might be really hard pressed in the typical dungeon crawl. You probably wont be good beyond charisma based skills (you'd have 7 of them). Really you would pretty much just be an Aristocrate, since the Commoner would only contribute a couple of other skills as class skills. For true gimped though, Trunamer/Commoner. Though really, Commoner has no place in gestalt.

Krazddndfreek
2009-10-29, 12:21 AM
Soulknife//Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129467) Coolest. Thing. EVER.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-29, 12:24 AM
Soulknife//Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129467) Coolest. Thing. EVER.

Or just go soulbound weapon variant psywar//unarmed swordsage, which is just as cool and OVER NINE-THOUSAAAAAND times more powerful.

Krazddndfreek
2009-10-29, 12:25 AM
Yeah that. And don't forget to grab enough dex for martial throw. It's awesome :smallwink:

dyslexicfaser
2009-10-30, 02:59 AM
Do this: Some kinda big monster with a big ECL/Monk2//Fighter6/Hulking Hurler2/Drunken Master2/Warhulk10.

You can knock people around with the Knockback feat and the fighter Dungeoncrasher variant; if you have Warhulk10, you can hit everyone that you threaten, which is a big area. You can grapple people with a huge modifier. And here's the important bit: Drunken Master 2 lets you use improvised weapons effectively. Trees. Buildings. Whatever. And here in your hand is some random minion you've been grappling. Hmm.

Hulking Hurler 2 lets you throw them and do damage based on weight.

I just want to see someone using this build, honestly.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-30, 03:33 AM
Fighter // Rogue could be fun - just take complete scoundrel and PHII for skill tricks, TWF, ambush feats, and telling blow.

If dragon magazine is allowed, at high levels you could disable the limbs of your enemies and finish them off when they are spreading blood in the ground (with the laundry-list-prereq ambush feat Lacerate).

Nevertheless, my official suggestion is Warlock // Rogue. Both if you take invisibility and glaive, or you are a sniper + skillmonkey could be very fun.

Krazddndfreek
2009-10-30, 03:37 AM
Do this: Some kinda big monster with a big ECL/Monk2//Fighter6/Hulking Hurler2/Drunken Master2/Warhulk10.

You can knock people around with the Knockback feat and the fighter Dungeoncrasher variant; if you have Warhulk10, you can hit everyone that you threaten, which is a big area. You can grapple people with a huge modifier. And here's the important bit: Drunken Master 2 lets you use improvised weapons effectively. Trees. Buildings. Whatever. And here in your hand is some random minion you've been grappling. Hmm.

Hulking Hurler 2 lets you throw them and do damage based on weight.

I just want to see someone using this build, honestly.

You mean something like this? (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/War_Hulking_Hurler_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Bui ld%29)

dyslexicfaser
2009-10-30, 08:36 PM
Hey, that's nifty. I think when I made the build in gestalt, I used a Cave Troll which is something ridiculous like 15 ECL (though improved grab was nice), but that seems much more streamlined.

EDIT: What the heck is 'Lolth-touched', though? And how did a Centaur get the favor of a Drow goddess?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-30, 10:50 PM
I made one as a Strongheart Halfling...

He was Monk2/Stoneblessed3/Crusader1/Barbarian1 (Mountainous Rage variant, and Pounce variant)/Warhulk10/Hulking Hurler3

Well, the original had HH2 and a level of Frenzied Berzerker, but that wasn't for optimization's sake. His name was Bruce Banner. Just... don't make him angry. You won't like him when he's angry.

Because Mountainous Rage increases his size to large, he winds up with 46ish strength at the end of things. Being able to throw things up to Medium Encumbrance was also fun. So was healing two damage per hit, and hitting everyone in melee as an attack action.

dyslexicfaser
2009-10-31, 12:57 AM
So Stoneblessed lets you take the Goliath barbarian substitution levels? Iiinteresting. Can you find it in Races of Stone?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-31, 01:39 AM
So Stoneblessed lets you take the Goliath barbarian substitution levels? Iiinteresting. Can you find it in Races of Stone?

Yep, it's a three-level PrC. You pick one of the races of stone (gnome, goliath, dwarf), and become attuned to them. Eventually, you can qualify for anything which that race can qualify for.

And since the Goliath barb sub-level explicitly states 'large size' rather than 'increases one size category', even a Halfling turns into a Large being when he rages.

So he goes from Small to Large, all the strength bonus from the Warhulk kicks in (they don't when he's not raging because he doesn't qualify then), and becomes The Hulk.