UMD/UPD Question

[CheshireCatAW]

UMD is an incredibly powerful skill and many builds use it, even when it's cross-class. For example, Giacomo's Monk build relies on it and the Fighter vs Wizard thread also showcases how a Fighter could defend himself with it.

My question is why people do not substitute Use Psionic Device for UMD in the cases of investing in cross-class skills. It would seem, to me, useful to have UPD since one of the primary limitations of wands does not exist when referring to Dorje's (Psionic wands, basically). Dorje's can have 9th level powers in them and they're still a DC 20 check to activate.

I realize you lose some versatility because you don't have quite the library of powers to choose from as opposed to spells, but surely the ability to use 9th level powers with a fairly easy check can be worth it, yes?

To summarize my question; Is gaining 9th level powers not worth losing the versatility with spells?

Thank you

[Random832]

Doesn't magic/psionic transparency mean this should be one skill / one check anyway?

[CheshireCatAW]

Psionics-Magic Transparency
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.


Unfortunately, it says nothing about UMD being able to be used with Psionic items. In fact, skills is one of the few things they manage to omit, however that IS a common houserule with the group I game with.

[Myrmex]

Psionics lacks the truly broken spells that let wizards win or circumvent most encounters.

There's no Celerity, for instance, in psionics.

[Lycanthromancer]

Plus, there are like 900 times as many magic items as there are psionic items, not even including the fact that most campaigns only include psionics tangentially, if at all.

[PinkysBrain]

There is anticipatory strike (and linked power and synchronicity).

[ErrantX]

Plus, there are like 900 times as many magic items as there are psionic items, not even including the fact that most campaigns only include psionics tangentially, if at all.

Yeah, but it's not like there aren't a lot of equivalent powers that would make many magic items able to be converted and done as psionic items. I ran in a Dark Sun game for a long time and one of the things we did was when dropping loot, we got a lot of psionic items (understandably). Belts of Giant Strength were done with the creator using Animal Affinity instead of Bull's Strength. Same thing, more or less, but psychic instead.

Just a thought.

-X

[Myrmex]

Yeah, but it's not like there aren't a lot of equivalent powers that would make many magic items able to be converted and done as psionic items. I ran in a Dark Sun game for a long time and one of the things we did was when dropping loot, we got a lot of psionic items (understandably). Belts of Giant Strength were done with the creator using Animal Affinity instead of Bull's Strength. Same thing, more or less, but psychic instead.

Just a thought.

-X

Yes, but the only time you see serious UMD abuse is in theoretical discussions, and such custom items are off limits for those purposes.

[ErrantX]

Yes, but the only time you see serious UMD abuse is in theoretical discussions, and such custom items are off limits for those purposes.

But the OP gives me the impression that is beyond theoretical and we're dancing in the realm of practical uses for both UMD and UPD. Dorjes are awesome for what they can do, and depending on the world, I've even replaced UMD with UPD (such as in Dark Sun). The vast majority of magic items can be replicated as psionic items, that's all I'm trying to get out there.

-X

[Myrmex]

But the OP gives me the impression that is beyond theoretical and we're dancing in the realm of practical uses for both UMD and UPD. Dorjes are awesome for what they can do, and depending on the world, I've even replaced UMD with UPD (such as in Dark Sun). The vast majority of magic items can be replicated as psionic items, that's all I'm trying to get out there.

-X

His question was "these seem pretty cool; why doesn't anyone talk about them?"

[Stegyre]

To summarize my question; Is gaining 9th level powers not worth losing the versatility with spells?
I think that, with Chameleon Crafting (a Dragon feat), you don't even lose that: create a dorje with 9th level spells; you just have to pay 50% more XP for the privilege.

Side question, because I'm more wary of Dragon feats than those that survived enough review to be published in a WotC book, Does this make Chameleon Crafting too good?

[Sinfire Titan]

With regards to Lycan, who should know this fairly well considering he's wrote quite a bit about Psionics, the MiC allows Psionic characters to substitute Powers and the Craft Psionic Items feats to make magic item that would normally require the Arcane/Divine spells and feats. The only items off limits are Schemas, Scepters, and other magic items printed in splat books and not given a Psionic version, but even those can be handwaved in as Universal items.


As for the UMD/UPD thing, I always viewed it as Psionic items requiring mental control and manipulation, while Arcane/Divine items require physical and verbal manipulation (the difference between Psionic Powers and Spells are components, after all). UMD is saying words and waving the item around, or willing it to activate with magical force, while Psionic items telepathically bond to you while you activate them, and require extreme mental control to wield properly.

Of course, both are magic items in my books. Using UMD to activate a Psicrown just imposes a penalty for using the wrong skill. Likewise, UPD could be used to activate wands, but at a similar penalty.