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View Full Version : [3.5] The Sha'ir - An excercise in frustration...



arguskos
2009-10-29, 01:08 AM
So, there is a sweet freaking class in the Dragon Compendium called the Sha'ir. It's a full caster with access to the Sor/Wiz list. This is fine, right?

Here's the trouble: they get spells by sending off a little gen familiar to barter with genies for each spell (also, cool freakin' image). They can get anything they want off their list (and some cleric domains) with some time and a simple Diplomacy check.

Yes, that's the problem: their spell selection is based on Diplomacy checks. :smalleek:

I have a player who, after reading this class, said to himself (and me) "that's awesome! I want to play one of these!" I said "lemme work on balancing it some, and I'll get back to you." So far, I've been stumped save to boost the checks required to get spells, but that's not a great fix.

My question is: does anyone else have any advice on how to fix the Sha'ir so that the flavor doesn't change, the mechanics don't shift too much, but it's not going to snap the world in twain with Diplomacy checks?

icefractal
2009-10-29, 04:54 AM
Can they actually get higher-level than normal spells this way, or just access to a wider selection? If it's the latter, I wouldn't worry - they're still limited by how many they can prepare, and IIRC the spell finding process takes some time.

AgentPaper
2009-10-29, 04:59 AM
We'd have to see the actual mechanics to know whether it was broken or not, let alone proposing a fix.

bosssmiley
2009-10-29, 06:40 AM
Switch Diplomacy checks out for caster level checks. The Sha'ir will scale a little better, but still has the option of having its gen servitor rock up with a Hail Mary spell once in a while.

It's a good class. Very flavour heavy, not absurdly powerful.

Cicciograna
2009-10-29, 06:47 AM
Played it in 2nd Edition. Altough the fluff could appeal, it's an awful, awful class. You can't imagine how frustrating is waiting for your genie to deliver the spell you requested, without having the certainty that he'll succeed, all the while having to survive in combat...

arguskos
2009-10-29, 12:24 PM
Wait. :sigh:

I'm an idiot. He has a limited number of spells known, and doesn't draw from the whole list. Damn. I somehow missed an ENTIRE TABLE in the book. :smalleek:

So. Yeah. That was stupid as all hell. Go me!

Never mind folks, never mind.

Kylarra
2009-10-29, 12:29 PM
There's another fairly major downside, each spell only stays memorized a number of hours equal to the caster level of the Sha'ir. Granted filling empty slots is only an expenditure of D4+level rounds, but if he wants a divine spell (the major bonus to sha'ir), he better get that first since it takes 1D6+spell level hours to retrieve.

arguskos
2009-10-29, 12:51 PM
There's another fairly major downside, each spell only stays memorized a number of hours equal to the caster level of the Sha'ir. Granted filling empty slots is only an expenditure of D4+level rounds, but if he wants a divine spell (the major bonus to sha'ir), he better get that first since it takes 1D6+spell level hours to retrieve.
Yeah, I know. With the sudden realization that it has a limited number of spells known, I don't really care much about the class's balance now. It's clearly fine.

I was just worried that total access+amazing spontaneousness was too much to handle. Since that's not true, it's no issue.

sofawall
2009-10-29, 01:18 PM
The problem is, since spells don't last forever, and it takes time to go get a spell, you're often stuck without the spell you want, and usually by the time your little dude has the spell, the time has passed where it would be useful, or battle is just plain over.

Kylarra
2009-10-29, 01:23 PM
The problem is, since spells don't last forever, and it takes time to go get a spell, you're often stuck without the spell you want, and usually by the time your little dude has the spell, the time has passed where it would be useful, or battle is just plain over.
It truly is a class that sacrifices power for flavor...



*hides from bricks* :smallbiggrin:

ErrantX
2009-10-29, 01:27 PM
Similar to the Spirit Shaman but... yikes, that sounds clumsy.

-X

Myou
2009-10-29, 01:33 PM
It truly is a class that sacrifices power for flavor...



*hides from bricks* :smallbiggrin:

*Throws cinderblocks instead.* :smallannoyed:

arguskos
2009-10-29, 01:35 PM
*Throws cinderblocks instead.* :smallannoyed:
I laugh at your anger. :smalltongue:

Also, I hate that phrase, but it might actually apply here. The Sha'ir, with the spells known limitation, is actually kinda bad. Flavorful, but awful in many, many ways. Power for flavor indeed.

Fizban
2009-10-29, 01:41 PM
The way it works is: you have a certain number of spells known, which are really easy to fetch, with a lower diplomacy DC. By my calculations (can't recheck, away from book), you should be able to make it on a take 10 just by keeping full ranks in diplomacy. Then you can also request a spell not on your known list, which has a higher DC that you aren't guaranteed to make. After you send for a spell you wait a bit for your familiar to get it, then it stays in your mind for a few hours and expires if you don't cast it. Instead of getting all your spells at the start of the day, you load up a couple when you get up, and then a few before you expect combat, and then a few after combat, so you always have a few ready in case you have to fight. It's kind of like a wizard that doesn't fill all his slots in the morning and leaves some to fill up with 15 minutes of time later, so he has the right spell. Except this is your default method, takes a little less time since you request them one at a time, and instead of a spell book you have a sorcerer's spells known that are easy and make checks for the rest.

I think it's probably on par with a wizard if played correctly, since if you pump your diplomacy you basically know every spell, like a wizard, but you don't have to pay money for them, and you can "prepare" the perfect spell in less time. Your weakness is naturally in the familiar instead of the spell book, but you can just grab a familiar pocket each day and call it good. If you change it to caster level instead of diplomacy it'll be a lot more standardized and should work pretty much like bossmiley said.

Edit: just to be clear, the spells known limitation is not a hard limit. He can cast any spell ever, but it takes a higher diplomacy check. The "spells known" table only means that he has a lower DC to fetch those, he could actually do just fine without it if need be.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-29, 06:45 PM
Yeah, I know. With the sudden realization that it has a limited number of spells known, I don't really care much about the class's balance now. It's clearly fine. Spell Known is a misleading term. He can access anything on the Sorc/Wiz list that he has on his spell known list or that he's seen cast and ID'd with a spellcraft check. Or anything off of those domains listed.

And the check is easy to make by mid levels, but even earlier you only need a 10 to make it even for the hardest spells with even a slight focus on diplomacy.

arguskos
2009-10-29, 06:47 PM
Spell Known is a misleading term. He can access anything on the Sorc/Wiz list that he has on his spell known list or that he's seen cast and ID'd with a spellcraft check. Or anything off of those domains listed.

And the check is easy to make by mid levels, but even earlier you only need a 10 to make it even for the hardest spells with even a slight focus on diplomacy.
Yes, but that's less problematic than I originally thought, concerning the player in question. :smallwink:

I am considering shifting it to a caster level check, as bosssmiley suggested, just so the class scales better in general. Something like a DC 20 caster level check, with the same alterations as normal?

Kylarra
2009-10-29, 06:56 PM
I am considering shifting it to a caster level check, as bosssmiley suggested, just so the class scales better in general. Something like a DC 20 caster level check, with the same alterations as normal?
That makes it kind of awkward at low levels.

Level 1 DC 20 check
Modifiers:
+1 from class level
-2 for spell level
+2 for spell being on the spells known list

You have a nice +2 modifier for a DC 20 check there. Should you fail, your modifier drops to +0 for your next try.

Level 8 DC 20 check, level 4 spell
Modifiers
+8 from class levels
-8 for spell levels
+2 for being on spell known list
2+CL8 = +10.

So by the time you're level 8, you can reliably get your best spells about half the time.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 07:02 PM
Similar to the Spirit Shaman but... yikes, that sounds clumsy.

-X

The Spirit Shaman was at least balanced. Arcane spells are a tad stronger than Divine spells. There's a reason the Archivist is considered Cleric+, as is the Artificer.


The Sha'ir is messed up, almost on the Truenamer level. Make it like the Spirit Shaman, but with 1/2 or 0 BAB and remove the Divine spell access.

arguskos
2009-10-29, 07:03 PM
That makes it kind of awkward at low levels.

Level 1 DC 20 check
Modifiers:
+1 from class level
-2 for spell level
+2 for spell being on the spells known list

You have a nice +2 modifier for a DC 20 check there. Should you fail, your modifier drops to +0 for your next try.

Level 8 DC 20 check, level 4 spell
Modifiers
+8 from class levels
-8 for spell levels
+2 for being on spell known list
2+CL8 = +10.

So by the time you're level 8, you can reliably get your best spells about half the time.
Was just a ballpark, after all. Maybe DC 15? That's not great though. Hmm... I'm thinking Sinfire has a good point. Make it Spirit Shaman esque, sending off the gen each morning to get you a new "set" of spells?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 07:09 PM
Was just a ballpark, after all. Maybe DC 15? That's not great though. Hmm... I'm thinking Sinfire has a good point. Make it Spirit Shaman esque, sending off the gen each morning to get you a new "set" of spells?

It always takes 1 hour, is automatic, and the Gen itself is fairly immune to most effects (but not very useful combat-wise).

Innis Cabal
2009-10-29, 07:11 PM
So, there is a sweet freaking class in the Dragon Compendium called the Sha'ir. It's a full caster with access to the Sor/Wiz list. This is fine, right?

Here's the trouble: they get spells by sending off a little gen familiar to barter with genies for each spell (also, cool freakin' image). They can get anything they want off their list (and some cleric domains) with some time and a simple Diplomacy check.

Yes, that's the problem: their spell selection is based on Diplomacy checks. :smalleek:

I have a player who, after reading this class, said to himself (and me) "that's awesome! I want to play one of these!" I said "lemme work on balancing it some, and I'll get back to you." So far, I've been stumped save to boost the checks required to get spells, but that's not a great fix.

My question is: does anyone else have any advice on how to fix the Sha'ir so that the flavor doesn't change, the mechanics don't shift too much, but it's not going to snap the world in twain with Diplomacy checks?

Its not really that broken. It takes or more to even get said spells. So ya...they can get a spell. Thats great. But not in any ammount of time that will be at all helpful to the party.

Kylarra
2009-10-29, 07:14 PM
I'd just leave it as is and not allow custom items of +diplomacy. If it starts to break the game, then go ahead and change it later.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-29, 07:31 PM
I'd just leave it as is and not allow custom items of +diplomacy. If it starts to break the game, then go ahead and change it later.This is for a member of our IRL group, and will probably start up at appx level 10. Arguskos has already eliminated most synergies to diplomacy. So we're looking at a check at: 10(Sha'ir)+13(skill ranks)+2(synergy)+7(Cha) for +32. A divine spell of 5th level is DC 36.

Innis Cabal
2009-10-29, 07:33 PM
I honestly don't see what the problem is....so they get a good range of spells...if its out of their class its literal minutes to get. Even if its their class spell list...rounds. Thats not all that broken honestly. If anything, the casting of the class is underpowered. Sure its versitile...but...takes forever. Its not pratical in combat or outside of combat what so ever with the durations it takes.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-29, 07:33 PM
Is there some way to squeeze in a spot of Marshal? Maybe through Leadership? A warlock dip for Beguiling Influence seems implausible.

@Innis Cabal: Read this. And the subsequent posts.


Yeah, I know. With the sudden realization that it has a limited number of spells known, I don't really care much about the class's balance now. It's clearly fine.

arguskos
2009-10-29, 07:37 PM
I honestly don't see what the problem is....so they get a good range of spells...if its out of their class its literal minutes to get. Even if its their class spell list...rounds. Thats not all that broken honestly. If anything, the casting of the class is underpowered. Sure its versitile...but...takes forever. Its not pratical in combat or outside of combat what so ever with the durations it takes.
I have an instinctive reaction to disallow anything that can get any and every spell whenever it wants. :smallannoyed: It's not "a good range of spells", it's "every Sor/Wiz spell ever printed anywhere". There's more than a bit of an issue, especially in my games, where I have specifically targeted the Sorcerer and Wizard for deletion, due to being far too powerful and unbalancing.

Perhaps that's not bad in your game, but in mine, it's an issue. With this in mind, the ability to get anything ever is dangerous.

Kylarra
2009-10-29, 07:40 PM
This is for a member of our IRL group, and will probably start up at appx level 10. Arguskos has already eliminated most synergies to diplomacy. So we're looking at a check at: 10(Sha'ir)+13(skill ranks)+2(synergy)+7(Cha) for +32. A divine spell of 5th level is DC 36.Meh. Unless you have 6-11 hours to spend waiting for it, I don't really see the issue. Honestly, that's more of a mitigating factor than any DC checks as far as divine spells go. I'd be more concerned about the arcane spell issue, than divine ones. You could just kill the class level bonus, then you'd have: 13 ranks +2 synergy + 7 cha for a +22 on a DC 36 check. Of course, you only have a 60% chance to pull level 5 arcane spells each time too, but eh, adjusting factors goes everywhere.


I have an instinctive reaction to disallow anything that can get any and every spell whenever it wants. :smallannoyed: It's not "a good range of spells", it's "every Sor/Wiz spell ever printed anywhere".
Well they do have to have identified it first to be able to pull it out, assuming it's not a spells/known, so there's some effort involved. Granted it means they pretty much have their spells known + every other arcane caster in the party, but wizards do similar things anyway.

arguskos
2009-10-29, 07:47 PM
Meh. Unless you have 6-11 hours to spend waiting for it, I don't really see the issue. Honestly, that's more of a mitigating factor than any DC checks as far as divine spells go.
In a game world where arcane magic is highly specialized based on class, where powerful divine casters are rare, where there are LITERALLY less than 30 characters above level 15, giving someone the ability to be the most versatile spellcaster around isn't something I'm super keen on. However, I don't want to deny my player his character idea, thus, my questions here.

Kylarra
2009-10-29, 07:52 PM
In a game world where arcane magic is highly specialized based on class, where powerful divine casters are rare, where there are LITERALLY less than 30 characters above level 15, giving someone the ability to be the most versatile spellcaster around isn't something I'm super keen on. However, I don't want to deny my player his character idea, thus, my questions here.Eh, other than maybe knowledge domain and of course miracle off of luck, I'm not seeing too much in those specified domains that aren't already on arcane lists or can't be replicated for some reason.

Just increase the penalties for pulling a non-spell known and/or divine spell, assuming those are the things that are bothering you. No need to drastically rewrite an already fairly linear system.

Coidzor
2009-10-29, 08:23 PM
Have the DC scale for every spell he summons per diem and possibly a different one for every spell he gets per encounter.

I mean, if you ever attack him at night, he's not going to have the divine spells he put in a request for before he went to bed and he's not going to have any arcane spells at all.

He's incredibly vulnerable while he's waiting for his familiar to return, even if he is using the familiar in a constant relay... Waves are going to be murder on him unless they're sufficiently staggered.

And didn't you just say he can only learn, like, less spells than the sorcerer overall? Only over a much wider range of things so he has to pick carefully and not just game breakingly especially since you can get a really easy idea of what spells are "instant win." and he'll have a several round delay inbetween castings unless he knows a fight is coming and requests all of them and expends his clip.