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View Full Version : familiar delivered touch spells... worth it?



taltamir
2009-10-29, 02:33 AM
So, a familiar can deliver a touch attack spell. it often has perfect flight, and good AC, but half of your sad HP. Is it actually worthwhile to send one to deliver touch attacks, or is it suicide (for the familiar)

ex cathedra
2009-10-29, 02:38 AM
I don't see how they have good AC by any means, and, if I recall correctly, in any situation where you would need them to deliver the attack they would lose any buffs that actually might have stopped them from being killed.

Considering the amount of options already available (Reach Spell, Archmage, Spectral Hand, etc.), I'm of the opinion that touch-spell-delivering familiars are simply xp timebombs.

I trade away familiars as quickly as I possibly can, however.

sonofzeal
2009-10-29, 02:50 AM
The best use of familiars is clever use of Share Spell. For example, you can share Cloud of Knives with your familiar, and double the effect. Any aura spell works too, or any buff that gives new things you can do. There's a few, and they're generally pretty weak by themselves, but when doubled (or triple or quadrupled, via Obtain Familiar) you can get some scary results.

arguskos
2009-10-29, 03:12 AM
(or triple or quadrupled, via Obtain Familiar)
You know, I mentioned this some time ago, but the general consensus was that you can't take Obtain Familiar if you already have one. Which sucks, cause I wanted to take nothing but Imp. Familiar and Obtain Familiar over and over as a wizard and call myself a traveling circus!

I figured it'd be a HILARIOUSLY fun character concept. :smallamused:

sonofzeal
2009-10-29, 03:21 AM
You know, I mentioned this some time ago, but the general consensus was that you can't take Obtain Familiar if you already have one. Which sucks, cause I wanted to take nothing but Imp. Familiar and Obtain Familiar over and over as a wizard and call myself a traveling circus!

I figured it'd be a HILARIOUSLY fun character concept. :smallamused:
Awr. Well, don't tell my DM. =P

Mastikator
2009-10-29, 03:27 AM
Gah, if anything familiar should count as a flaw, not feat.

Eloel
2009-10-29, 03:31 AM
Familiar and specialization are the only perks of Wizard. If not it'd be sacrificing power for flavor.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-29, 03:38 AM
One of te Dragon Mags has a feat called Extra Familiar. Give you one guess what it does.

Also: The eye tyrant (an apple sized beholder with only 4 eye stalks) can turn touch spells into a 30 foot ray, but it must use it that turn. No holding onto it.

taltamir
2009-10-29, 06:17 AM
One of te Dragon Mags has a feat called Extra Familiar. Give you one guess what it does.

Also: The eye tyrant (an apple sized beholder with only 4 eye stalks) can turn touch spells into a 30 foot ray, but it must use it that turn. No holding onto it.

very nice


Familiar and specialization are the only perks of Wizard. If not it'd be sacrificing power for flavor.

explain please


You know, I mentioned this some time ago, but the general consensus was that you can't take Obtain Familiar if you already have one. Which sucks, cause I wanted to take nothing but Imp. Familiar and Obtain Familiar over and over as a wizard and call myself a traveling circus!

I figured it'd be a HILARIOUSLY fun character concept. :smallamused:

That would be awesome. We should totally meet someone like that. (maybe have him have a unique feat that is not available to players.. a born trait that make you able to have multiple familiars)

Sliver
2009-10-29, 06:34 AM
explain please

No.. Not this again.. Please.. Don't!

SparkMandriller
2009-10-29, 06:43 AM
explain please

Lightning warrior jokes~


That would be awesome. We should totally meet someone like that. (maybe have him have a unique feat that is not available to players.. a born trait that make you able to have multiple familiars)

That guy is gonna have a lot of fun when he gets polymorph any object and retires.

(Cat->Catgirl counts as related, right?)

Eldariel
2009-10-29, 06:48 AM
Delivering touches to ALLIES is very useful.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-29, 07:44 AM
I'm currently working on a heavy familiar user. Using UA generic Arcane caster for the base (5 levels), and I'm looking for PrCs to go with it. So far, I've found 1 home brewed PrC, and 2 published in 3rd party stuff, 1 of witch I have access to. :smallyuk:

If anyone is interested, I have a small list of books tat pertain to familiars.

John Campbell
2009-10-29, 09:38 AM
Last wizard I played had a ridiculously tough familiar - I was a dwarven fighter/mage with a natural 20 Con; half my hit points still meant my weasel had more hit points than our sorceress. I'd polymorph him into combat forms, share all my buffs with him (you can still share enlarge person with a familiar that's been polymorphed into a wyvern!), and wade into melee with him, but I still didn't use him to deliver touch attacks. I did sometimes use him to deliver touch spells to allies at a distance. It wasn't what I considered a tremendously valuable feature, but it was occasionally useful.

And I once saved several of our butts by dropping magic circle against good on him and using him as a guided anti-mind-control missile. That situation was one where I'd specifically considered having him deliver it, but concluded it wouldn't work... he didn't have the movement to get where he needed to be and still deliver the spell, but by casting it directly on him, he could just run there and get the necessary character into the effect radius. Spent the rest of that fight riding around on the dominated paladin's shoulder.

Myou
2009-10-29, 09:54 AM
No.. Not this again.. Please.. Don't!

Yes, anything but more of that torture. :smallyuk:

Gorbash
2009-10-29, 10:09 AM
So, a familiar can deliver a touch attack spell. it often has perfect flight, and good AC, but half of your sad HP. Is it actually worthwhile to send one to deliver touch attacks, or is it suicide (for the familiar)

No buffs + half your hp + familiar out in the open = dead familiar.

Best use of familiar is casting Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability on him and casting Familiar Pocket. Familiar pocket lets him enter and leave the pocket as a free action (used either by you or him), so logical use is he gets out, casts a spell, gets in and seals the pocket, gaining total cover and concealment. Rince and repeat until foes are dead.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 10:31 AM
No buffs + half your hp + familiar out in the open = dead familiar.

Best use of familiar is casting Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability on him and casting Familiar Pocket. Familiar pocket lets him enter and leave the pocket as a free action (used either by you or him), so logical use is he gets out, casts a spell, gets in and seals the pocket, gaining total cover and concealment. Rince and repeat until foes are dead.

Key phrase there. Share Spell breaks Polymorph abilities even more than they all ready are, and the right buffs allow you to make yourself and him into an unrivaled death machine.


And there's a feat in the Dragon Compendium that lets you Share Spells out to a mile instead of 5ft.

Person_Man
2009-10-29, 10:37 AM
A familiar holds a touch spell until it is discharged. So before combat you cast a spell for your familiar to hold. (This can be done way ahead of time. As long as you don't cast another spell, your familiar can hold it forever). On the first round of combat, your familiar attacks, discharging the spell. Then you attack, presumably with another spell. 2 spells, 1 round, available at first level.

Gorbash
2009-10-29, 10:57 AM
Key phrase there. Share Spell breaks Polymorph abilities even more than they all ready are, and the right buffs allow you to make yourself and him into an unrivaled death machine.

Yeah, if you don't move more than 5 ft per round.



And there's a feat in the Dragon Compendium that lets you Share Spells out to a mile instead of 5ft.

Lol, talk about broken... And Dragon Compendium isn't official anyways.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-29, 11:03 AM
I don't see how they have good AC by any means, and, if I recall correctly, in any situation where you would need them to deliver the attack they would lose any buffs that actually might have stopped them from being killed.



No, only if you share to yourself and familar, after 5 feet away the spell ends om familiar. If you just share to familiar (personal spell) it has no range limit.

Important distinction.

ex cathedra
2009-10-29, 11:55 AM
No, only if you share to yourself and familar, after 5 feet away the spell ends om familiar. If you just share to familiar (personal spell) it has no range limit.

Important distinction.

Yes, well, I'd like to think that I'm understandably stingy with spell slots.

Akal Saris
2009-10-29, 12:44 PM
It depends a lot on the DM and group dynamic, and the familiar. For example, when I finally get to level 7 with my Pathfinder conjurer, I intend to get an imp familiar, and use up my 1st level slots on shocking grasps for him to blast enemies in the back with. (Devil law says that we only stab enemies in the back!)

My group varies (it's organized play), but I always play with my rogue friend, so the familiar will always at least provide flanking to him, and my wiz is pretty tough, so it should have ~26 HP at 7th level, as well as DR 5/Good or Silver and Fast Healing 2. Besides, it will start each fight invisible, which keeps it from provoking attacks entering the opponent's square and whatnot. And I'm only going to use it to deliver spells if the opponent is threatened by PCs and/or likely to die soon. But I still intend to do so :D

Signmaker
2009-10-29, 12:54 PM
Yeah, if you don't move more than 5 ft per round.


Cast Aspect of the Platinum Dragon. Ride around on your familiar mount.

Akal Saris
2009-10-29, 02:05 PM
Heh...that would kick ass!

Volos
2009-10-29, 02:07 PM
If you can have the familiar sneak up on the enemy and deliver a spell before running away... then yeah, it would be worth it.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 02:17 PM
Cast Aspect of the Platinum Dragon. Ride around on your familiar mount.

Or Tiamat. Nothing says "You're doomed" like a full caster mounted on the Dragon Queen. Who's actually his familiar.

Gorbash
2009-10-29, 02:23 PM
Cast Aspect of the Platinum Dragon. Ride around on your familiar mount.

And then be in melee range of enemies? No thanks, I prefer Phantom Steed. :smallwink:

Also, where is that spell from?

Telonius
2009-10-29, 02:25 PM
Right, if it's a touch spell that can reliably one-shot single straggling enemies, then sure.

On the other hand, having a Pseudodragon familiar is all kinds of fun. Note that they communicate telepathically. Have him peek out of his familiar pocket. Hilarity ensues.

Pseudodragon: <Hello, advisor person. You smell like an orc.>
Evil Advisor: Who said that?
King: Who said what?
Pseudodragon: (imitating advisor) <I did, King, are you going deaf in your old age?>
King: ... Advisor, you'd better have a good explanation for this.
Pseudodragon: :smallbiggrin:

Kelb_Panthera
2009-10-29, 03:17 PM
Familiars can go one of two ways. Either they're trivial to the point of almost uselessness, or they're a major focus of your character's design, which makes them almost as powerful as the spell-caster they're attached to. Somebody wrote a handbook on the subject, but I'll have to look it up and post the link after work...... stupid RL. :smallannoyed:

Edit: Reverse Ninja'd

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 03:33 PM
Familiars can go one of two ways. Either they're trivial to the point of almost uselessness, or they're a major focus of your character's design, which makes them almost as powerful as the spell-caster they're attached to. Somebody wrote a handbook on the subject, but I'll have to look it up and post the link after work...... stupid RL. :smallannoyed:

Brilliant Gameologists is more convenient than Google. Here's the handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=344.0)


Note that it doesn't include Grafts, which are actually very good for a Familiar (despite HP/stat reduction).

Akal Saris
2009-10-29, 03:38 PM
There's also Dictum's familiar's handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870010/The_Familiars_Handbook__2007).

good_lookin_gus
2009-10-29, 10:18 PM
No, only if you share to yourself and familar, after 5 feet away the spell ends om familiar. If you just share to familiar (personal spell) it has no range limit.

Important distinction.

Are you sure about that?


If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.

It seems like it could go either way; but since they are lumped together, I would guess there is no distinction. If I'm wrong, get Improved Familiar: Small Air Elemental (fly 100ft, perfect) and put an Antimagic Field on it.:smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2009-10-29, 10:27 PM
Ooh yeah, tagging it with normally self-only spells like antimagic field seems uber.

If you have a buff round you can charge up your familiar and basically get a free reach attack spell on top of your own round 1 action. Just hold your action until after the familiar takes his turn. That's powerful.

You can also treat a familiar as a "node", a target for a spell that no party member wants to be the target of. Like I have a familiar that I want to peg with magic circle against evil in the morning, then stick him in the middle of the party. It's better because the familiar doesn't attack anyway. I've also heard of people use their familiar as a polymorph target.

Familiars can also be used for basic utility roles like scouting and delivery. They get all your skill ranks to boot. I have a familiar that'll soon have a higher knowledge(arcana) than me due to int.

npc revolution
2009-10-30, 05:19 AM
so you can just throw your familiar at people to deliver a spell?
FLY MY KITTY!

Bayar
2009-10-30, 06:09 AM
so you can just throw your familiar at people to deliver a spell?
FLY MY KITTY!

I remember the DM specifically forbid the use of cats as ranged or melee weapons.

Plus, why would you bother buffing a cat when it is already a nigh unstoppable killing machine ? That would be like awakening the Tarrasque and giving it wizard levels.

Boci
2009-10-30, 12:45 PM
The elf wizard sub levels had the option of giving up your familiar's ability to deliver touch spells in return for doubling their indevidual bonus. That + humming bird familiar = +8 initiative.

taltamir
2009-10-30, 02:55 PM
I remember the DM specifically forbid the use of cats as ranged or melee weapons.

Plus, why would you bother buffing a cat when it is already a nigh unstoppable killing machine ? That would be like awakening the Tarrasque and giving it wizard levels.

I am totally awakening the tarrasque ASAP... maximized awaken.
PS. Awakened creatures are friendly towards the awakener.

ericgrau
2009-10-30, 03:58 PM
Not an animal or tree. Its a magic beast. Too smart to be an animal anyway, by 1 point of int. Not to mention the DC 58 will save it'd require.