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Ozreth
2009-10-29, 04:14 AM
My girlfriend, who is new to d&d, wants to play a catfolk. I started rolling a character with her and realized I have no idea how to roll a LA race.

So how do I roll a level 1 catfolk wizard?

Thanks!

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-29, 04:18 AM
You'd have to start at level 2 as a level 1 wizard. (Thus, everyone else would be level 2 whatevers).

Or, if this is a game starting at level 1, ask the DM if she can gain catfolk at level 2. You'd start as a level 1 wizard with the fluff of catfolk, but when you hit level 2, instead of gaining another class level, apply the race.

BooNL
2009-10-29, 04:54 AM
Or... just let her play as a level 2 catfolk wizard and not level up when everyone else hits level 2.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-29, 04:56 AM
Pfft! Sure, if you want to do things the easy way. :smallyuk:

Bah! why didn't I think of that?! :smallfrown:

BooNL
2009-10-29, 05:14 AM
Actually, a catfolk has what? +10' move, +4 dex and +2 cha right?

Besides dex none of that is helpful to a wizard, especially if she's new to the game.

You might even consider dropping the LA altogether, maybe drop dex to +2 to compensate.

BobVosh
2009-10-29, 05:28 AM
The big thing on cat folk is pounce.

+10 movement, +2 dex, +2 cha along with pounce is too powerful for a 1LA class. Not that it helps the wizard much, unless they feel like trouncing melee at its own game.

BooNL
2009-10-29, 05:56 AM
AFB at the moment, but isn't catfolk pounce a feat?

If it is, there's no reason to take that into equation. Especially because she's a newbie wizard. Alright, if she was a newbie barbarian, your point might be valid, but she isn't playing a beefie smasher.
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure she doesn't intend to gish her character. So I assume we can be pretty safe from catfolk pounce.

Tyger
2009-10-29, 06:39 AM
Personally I don't think it would be fair to the other players at the table to take away that LA. Sure, its "only" +4 to Dex (which helps the mage with Init, AC, Reflex Saves and hitting with Rays and touch attack spells), +2 to Cha (which admittedly doesn't have a lot of implications for wizards) and +10 move speed (allowing better avoidance of melee, better positioning for spell casting, etc)....

The point is that if everyone else is playing races with no LA, or paid for their LA, then this character should too. Even if you reduce the Dex to only +2. Its that or give everyone else an additional 6-10 points for thier builds.

That said, making an LA+1 wizard? The advice above about starting at level 2 or not having the cartfolks abilities until level 2, or not having any wizard abilities until level 2, that's all good advice.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-29, 06:44 AM
AFB at the moment, but isn't catfolk pounce a feat?


Yes, catfolk do not get pounce automatically. They can gain it with a feat. It therefore has no bearing on this discussion.

Random832
2009-10-29, 08:01 AM
Personally I don't think it would be fair to the other players at the table to take away that LA.

Why? It's there for a reason, and if the reason doesn't apply to the class they're taking, it makes no sense not to take it away. "Unfair advantage" only applies when there actually is an advantage.

I mean, those advantages are instead of an extra feat and extra skill point per level, or immunity to sleep, or darkvision and stability, right?

Tyger
2009-10-29, 10:18 AM
Why? It's there for a reason, and if the reason doesn't apply to the class they're taking, it makes no sense not to take it away. "Unfair advantage" only applies when there actually is an advantage.

I mean, those advantages are instead of an extra feat and extra skill point per level, or immunity to sleep, or darkvision and stability, right?

No advantage hmm? How many Ray spells are there? How many discussions about Wizard vs. X start off with "whoever wins intiative"? How often does AC come up in a typical game? To say that there is no advantage to +2 AC, Initiative and all ranged attacks (there are lots) does not sound like an accurate assessment thereof.

Incidentally, if memory serves, the Catfolk also gets Low-Light Vision, skill bonuses and a +1 Natural Armor. I am away from books at the moment, so I can't confirm that though. If I am right, those alone would be simliar to the bonuses that the non-LA races get, and those non-LA races usually don't have non-offset stat bonuses.

And, lets look at from the other player's point of view. "I am playing an elf, so I get a bonus to a stat, and a penalty to another one. So it evens out. Sure, I have the low-light and somesuch, but I don't get the freebie feat or skillpoints, so that's fair. How come she gets +6 to stats and +10 move, with nothing to offset that? What? Her dex doesn't matter??? That's +2 to intiative and AC, not to mention her wizards low reflex saves. Initiative is arguably the best thing a wizard can beef up, after Int of course."

Its quite simply not fair to every other player. If you don't care about fairness, then sure, its just fine. But to say that +10 move and +4 to Dex don't count for wizards is disengenous at best. If you take this route, the elf should not have to take the -2 to CON, and maybe should make it a +4 to Dex rather than just +2. The Dwarf? He gets his CHA back - after all, why does it matter? Etc. etc. etc.

Not to mention, what if she decides to go with some rogue levels later on as they fit her character? Or PrCs into one of the billion possibilities later on? Suddently that bonus is applicable to a lot more.

Not to mention, lots of people (at least in my experience) pick races that are not optimized for their class, but suit their character concept. So those who picked non-LA races for concept don't get the same total bonuses as this player who picked an LA race?

Random832
2009-10-29, 10:29 AM
No advantage hmm? How many Ray spells are there? How many discussions about Wizard vs. X start off with "whoever wins intiative"? How often does AC come up in a typical game? To say that there is no advantage to +2 AC, Initiative and all ranged attacks (there are lots) does not sound like an accurate assessment thereof.

It's only +1 vs Elves.

And my point is, a level adjustment is a HUGE cost. Especially for a caster. Bonuses to a few stats that you're not even going to put your highest rolls in don't fit, unless you're also going to use a LA to penalize people for rolling well. The LA/ECL system is broken, and this is one of the reasons.

If anything maybe it should have an HD - really it doesn't make sense that +1HD races can't exist due to some unfortunate wording.

(Maybe Dwarves should get a level adjustment if playing a class that CHA doesn't matter for, and doing melee combat for which Stability does.)

Kylarra
2009-10-29, 10:35 AM
Well, if you keep the LA, remember LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm) rules since those minor statboosts will become negligible fast, especially considering a caster.

jiriku
2009-10-29, 10:47 AM
When using a non-standard character race, figure it like this:

Racial Hit Dice (RHD) + Level Adjustment (LA) + Character Levels (CL)) = Effective Character Level (ECL).

When granting experience, or when determining how balanced her character is against other party members, use ECL. For other purposes where you care about level, you'll typically use CL.

So, a level 1 catfolk wizard is ECL 2 (LA 1 + CL 1). She's as powerful as a second-level human wizard (LA 0 + CL 2). The DMG recommends that you not introduce such a character until the rest of the party is a match for her ECL, but honestly, it won't end the world if you bring her in at ECL 2 while they're first level and start her at 0 XP. Just remember that while she's ECL 2 and the party is ECL 1, she'll earn less experience than they do.

Telonius
2009-10-29, 10:50 AM
You might even consider dropping the LA altogether, maybe drop dex to +2 to compensate.

I'd advise against it. That would turn her from Catfolk into Catgirl, therefore vulnerable to physics discussions.

Random832
2009-10-29, 10:54 AM
There's an idea actually - instead of LA, carry a humanoid RHD instead of dropping it

Hit Dice: d8
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will
1|0|0|2|0[/table]
Skill points: 2+Int modifier (4× at first level)

The other thing would be that unlike LA this counts as a level for the purpose of what levels you get feats (every third level) and ability increases (every fourth level) on, any spell or effect that depends on your character level or hit dice, etc.

Also consider the fractional BAB multiclassing rules to avoid losing a level of BAB and poor Fort save: (If you do this, do it for everyone who wants to multiclass; the math is described in Unearthed Arcana and also is fairly obvious to figure out for yourself if you treat the values in each class table as being rounded down from a linear progression)
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will
1|0|0|2|0
1/Wiz 1|1|0|2|2
1/2|1|1|3|3
1/3|2|1|3|3
1/4|2|1|3|4
1/5|3|2|4|4
1/6|3|2|4|5
1/7|4|2|4|5
1/8|4|3|5|6[/table]

Maybe also throw in a couple cantrips to back up the idea that she's already studying to be a wizard, and let her buy wizard class skills with the first level skill points

----

Consider carefully whether to do this, though - an RHD can't be bought off later, so my other concern about losing a caster level is even more important here.

In the end you need to talk to your group - ask them how they feel about dropping the LA rather than just assuming people here know how they will feel.

Ozreth
2009-10-29, 12:20 PM
When using a non-standard character race, figure it like this:

Racial Hit Dice (RHD) + Level Adjustment (LA) + Character Levels (CL)) = Effective Character Level (ECL).

When granting experience, or when determining how balanced her character is against other party members, use ECL. For other purposes where you care about level, you'll typically use CL.

So, a level 1 catfolk wizard is ECL 2 (LA 1 + CL 1). She's as powerful as a second-level human wizard (LA 0 + CL 2). The DMG recommends that you not introduce such a character until the rest of the party is a match for her ECL, but honestly, it won't end the world if you bring her in at ECL 2 while they're first level and start her at 0 XP. Just remember that while she's ECL 2 and the party is ECL 1, she'll earn less experience than they do.

Perfect, just what I needed! Thanks man : )

Also, for everyone worried about character balances and unfair advantages or difficulties or whatever, I know its odd for her to start out as a LA character, especially a catfolk wizard ha, BUT this is how I see it: Somebody who is completely new to this sort of thing isn't going to be at all concerned about optimizing their character etc. so I figure they should play what is really attractive to them, that way they stay interested even when the game and its rules start to become overwhelming.

She has her heart set on being a catfolk wizard, I figure If I take that away from her right now I take away half of her enjoyment at the first session, and she may not come back for the next one. Besides, one of the other players is pretty n00bish and the third is our best friend who is a vet but wont mind whatever we do.

I appreciate the responses, suggestions, and concerns!

sadi
2009-10-29, 01:01 PM
If you have access to a 3.0 dmg you could use the rules for multiclass characters at 1st level. Basically you'd only get half your will save and 2/0 spell slots besides bonus spells as a half level wizard. I'd give +2 dex from race at level 1, and the other +2 when she hits level 2. That way you've basically spread out both things over 2 levels.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-10-29, 02:19 PM
She wants to play a catfolk or she wants to play a cute catgirl type character?

if she just wants to play a catgirl refluff something more approriate. . . or grab tibbit out of the dragon magazine compendium. .. i dont think they have a level adjust. . . i might be wrong.