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Person_Man
2009-10-29, 03:46 PM
So I was re-reading Magic of Incarnum for the 4th time (I think it takes about 8 times to really understand) and for the first time I took a serious look at the Necrocarnate prestige class. It's an oddball.

Prereqs: Any Evil, 5 ranks in Knowledge arcana and religion, 10 ranks in Spellcraft, ability to shape soulmelds, ability to bind crown, feet, and hands chakra, Necrocarnum Acolyte feat.

Class Basics:

13 level class, d6 hit die, poor BAB, Strong Will Save, crud for Skills.
Fully progresses meldshaping (caster) level.
Opens Arms, Brows, Shoulders, Throat, Waist, Heart, and Soul chakras (the same as Incarnate, though 1 level slower in its progression).
Grants 3 more chakra binds (same as Incarnate, though a few levels slower).
Grants 3 more soulmelds (1 less then Incarnate, and a few levels slower)
Expands the capacity of necrocarnum soulmeld capacity by 1 (Incarnate progresses all soulmelds by 1)
Does NOT progress your essentia pool at all.
Improves your ability to use Necrocarnum Circlet (mediocre undead summoning) soulmeld.
Gains the ability to harvest essentia from recently dead corpses.


The last ability is the meat of the class, and only requires a 1 level dip to get. The Necrocarnate can harvest 1/2 their class level (rounded up) in essentia from a newly dead corpse (dead no more then 1 hour per class level) for 24 hours. No corpse can be harvested in this way more then once. This potentially can give you a vast amount of essentia, assuming that your DM throws living enemies at you. Eventually you also get the ability to gain essentia for 1 round as an immediate action from someone who dies within 100 ft of you a limited number of times per day.

So, when your DM uses living enemies (a condition that won't happen all the time, but will still happen with regularity) after a few combats of killing and draining essentia (or just stopping by the local town and killing a few nameless NPCs), you're basically set for the next 24 hours to fill every soulmeld, incarnum feat, incarnum class ability, and incarnum item you possess to its maximum capacity, which would be in the 2-8 (or higher?) range per soulmeld, depending on your character level, build, feats, and items.

Is this a huge loophole, or am I just missing something? What would be the best build to take advantage of this ability?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 03:56 PM
This is fairly old news actually. The original Gleemax Incarnum Handbook has a few posts about it, but I disagree about the class. It more or less has to boil an Ant Hill every few hours to keep your Essentia Pool at a relevant level, and its possible to get infinite essentia by killing creatures with partial HD (ants, for example, or Kobolds if you feel like a challenge).

The problem is, until something around them dies they effectively only have 6 Essentia. The awkward advancement is also a problem; the class is always behind straight Incarnate in Chakra Binds and Soulmelds. So either you abuse RAW and randomly slaughter innocent beings (or helpless ones) and thus turn yourself into a Stupid Evil character just to use your class features, or you suck during the first encounter every few hours or so. Advancing in the PrC is difficult because you are reliant on your Soulmelds, and Chakra binds at the low levels aren't that powerful for an Incarnate. It also doesn't advance Incarnum Radiance, a key Incarnate class feature.


BTW, the key feature isn't worth it. A single Incarnum Zombie is all you really need; having two just means more damage at the cost of some of your other abilities. Its a class that tries to be a necromancer, but failed miserably. Here's another post regarding it. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5093.msg171308#msg171308)



I'm getting fairly predictable, huh?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-29, 06:59 PM
Do summoned monsters qualify? Because Summon Elemental Reserve or even a couple wands of SNA 1 could basically set you for any given day. You just need a party member to give you some help.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-29, 07:03 PM
Unconscious or dead summons disappear. Annoying for Death Knell.

Optimystik
2009-10-29, 07:38 PM
I'm getting fairly predictable, huh?

I'm not upset at all that we have an Incarnum guru here. That book still makes my head spin, and I'm up to my 5th read. :smalleek:

Vexxation
2009-10-29, 07:51 PM
Yet another use for Chicken-Infested...

Fishy
2009-10-29, 08:15 PM
Would it be worth trying to combine it with Psycarnum Infusion? You don't have a lot of essentia, but you can fake it?

Deth Muncher
2009-10-29, 08:17 PM
Yet another use for Chicken-Infested...

Ach mein Gott in Himmel. This is ridiculous. Screw Consumptive Fields and Warlocks, you've got Necrocarnates now!

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 09:25 PM
I'm not upset at all that we have an Incarnum guru here. That book still makes my head spin, and I'm up to my 5th read. :smalleek:

I may be a fast learner/reader, but you're the second person to call me an Incarnum Guru. I still get things wrong about it, even if I specialize in dealing with explaining it.

I really need to finish those handbooks sometime...

Zaq
2009-10-29, 09:56 PM
I've never seen the problem with Incarnum. The ONLY difficult part about it is the difference between shaping and binding, and that's really not that hard to understand.

Anyway, to me, Necrocarnate is just epic magic on an exponentially smaller scale. It's basically impossible to use effectively and in scale with the group; you either abuse the hell out of it and J-curve, or you're pretty much empirically weaker than your vanilla counterpart (without mitigation, I'd rather have most 9th-level spells than most Epic spells). They make great BBEGs, though, especially since they have some of the most evil fluff I've ever come across. (Directly gaining energy from deliberately torturing and twisting explicitly innocent souls? That's pretty creepy and unambiguously capital-E Evil.)

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-29, 10:14 PM
Yet another use for Chicken-Infested...

Great for gestalt. Commoner 1/dread necromancer 19 // incarnate/necrocarnate.

Step 1: Start pulling pullets
Step 2: Zombie-explodify them
Step 3: Toss the hen-grenades
Step 4: Do the chicken-dance
Step 6: Cast a few divinations
Step 7: Profit Prophet!

Person_Man
2009-10-30, 11:30 AM
Well, how do people feel about a 1 level dip into Necrocarnate for every build that uses Totemist or Incarnate?

I fully admit that you really don't gain any benefits for your first few combats in any 24 hour period. But after that, you essentially get to max out everything. I think Sinfire is correct in that you don't want to rely on it as your primary source or essentia. But as a secondary source, it seems like it's potentially quite powerful.

The downside is that you lose one level of essentia/chakra binds/soulmelds progression and one point of BAB. And the requirements are slightly annoying (especially for the Totemist, who doesn't have Spellcraft as a class Skill). But other then that, I can't see a reason not to take a level of Necrocarnate.



I really need to finish those handbooks sometime...

I hope you do. I'm working on a long "Incarnum for Dummies" post, that lists out all the ways you can get essentia, soulmelds, and chakra binds, and explains how they interact. But you're far more qualified them I am to write it. So I hope you beat me to the punch.

Along that note, I have a side question about opening chakra binds. Lets say that I'm an Azurin Fighter 6. I take the Shape Soulmeld feat, and gain access to the Dread Carapace soulmeld. Can I shape that soulmeld, even though I don't have access to a meldshaping class? Can I take the Open Least Chakra feat, to bind it to my feet or hands, even though I don't have levels of a meldshaping class?

If so, does this mean that when an Azurin Totemist 2/Fighter 4 takes Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra he adds 1 to the maximum number of soulmelds and chakra binds he can shape at a given time?

If not, does that mean that the Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra feats are useless for builds non-meldshapers?

I'm guessing that the second answer is true, and that the feats are there as a way for multiclass meldshapers to expand their choice of powers and continue to gain access to more powerful chakra slots as they gain levels. But I just wanted to confirm.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-30, 12:50 PM
I've never seen the problem with Incarnum. The ONLY difficult part about it is the difference between shaping and binding, and that's really not that hard to understand.
I thought so at first, too. Then I tried to play one.

The mechanics, in general, I don't think are as bad as some say. However, there are a lot of Soulmelds, and you get access to... all of them. At 1st level. To make matters worse, the Incarnate/Soulborn soulmelds and the Totemist soulmelds are all mixed together, despite the fact that there's like a grand total of 3 overlapping soulmelds between them. The handy chart only tells you about the shaping bonus, not about the investment or binding bonuses, so you can't rely on that. Basically, it's really hard to keep track of all the soulmelds that are available - which can you shape, which can you bind, how much essentia can you invest in them, and most importantly (and most difficult-ly) what they do when you do any of those things. I've made several mistakes on my Totemist so far.

Glimbur
2009-10-30, 01:27 PM
Along that note, I have a side question about opening chakra binds. Lets say that I'm an Azurin Fighter 6. I take the Shape Soulmeld feat, and gain access to the Dread Carapace soulmeld. Can I shape that soulmeld, even though I don't have access to a meldshaping class? Can I take the Open Least Chakra feat, to bind it to my feet or hands, even though I don't have levels of a meldshaping class?

If so, does this mean that when an Azurin Totemist 2/Fighter 4 takes Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra he adds 1 to the maximum number of soulmelds and chakra binds he can shape at a given time?

If not, does that mean that the Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra feats are useless for builds non-meldshapers?

I'm guessing that the second answer is true, and that the feats are there as a way for multiclass meldshapers to expand their choice of powers and continue to gain access to more powerful chakra slots as they gain levels. But I just wanted to confirm.

I have a slightly different answer to your question than you seem to expect. I would allow anyone to shape and bind if they take the feats for it. Take Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots and Open Least Chakra: Feet and you've got evasion at the cost of your feet slot. For meldshapers, I treat Shape Soulmeld not as adding the soulmeld to your class list, but as separately giving you the ability to shape another soulmeld... as long as it's that particular soulmeld(which is at half character level for meldshaper level). Similarly, Open X Chakra gives you another bind... as long as it's used for that particular slot.

This is certainly more powerful than either of your answers. But that's how I read things.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-30, 01:29 PM
I thought so at first, too. Then I tried to play one.

The mechanics, in general, I don't think are as bad as some say. However, there are a lot of Soulmelds, and you get access to... all of them. At 1st level. To make matters worse, the Incarnate/Soulborn soulmelds and the Totemist soulmelds are all mixed together, despite the fact that there's like a grand total of 3 overlapping soulmelds between them. The handy chart only tells you about the shaping bonus, not about the investment or binding bonuses, so you can't rely on that. Basically, it's really hard to keep track of all the soulmelds that are available - which can you shape, which can you bind, how much essentia can you invest in them, and most importantly (and most difficult-ly) what they do when you do any of those things. I've made several mistakes on my Totemist so far.

This is why I use note cards. That way I can short-hand my soulmelds/chakra binds.


Edit:

Along that note, I have a side question about opening chakra binds. Lets say that I'm an Azurin Fighter 6. I take the Shape Soulmeld feat, and gain access to the Dread Carapace soulmeld. Can I shape that soulmeld, even though I don't have access to a meldshaping class? Can I take the Open Least Chakra feat, to bind it to my feet or hands, even though I don't have levels of a meldshaping class?

Cust Serv says no to the Open Chakra feats, but they contradict the RAW directly. Shape Soulmeld grants the ability to shape that soulmeld, just like Martial Study (at least how I read it). I really wish they'd have issued errata.


If so, does this mean that when an Azurin Totemist 2/Fighter 4 takes Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra he adds 1 to the maximum number of soulmelds and chakra binds he can shape at a given time?

In my opinion, each instance of the Open Chakra feats gives an additional chakra bind/day, but only for the chakra that feat was attached to. Shape Soulmeld likewise (but PsiReform allows you to swap them).


If not, does that mean that the Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra feats are useless for builds non-meldshapers?

I'm guessing that the second answer is true, and that the feats are there as a way for multiclass meldshapers to expand their choice of powers and continue to gain access to more powerful chakra slots as they gain levels. But I just wanted to confirm.

Its for Multiclassing and for non-shapers.


I hope you do. I'm working on a long "Incarnum for Dummies" post, that lists out all the ways you can get essentia, soulmelds, and chakra binds, and explains how they interact. But you're far more qualified them I am to write it. So I hope you beat me to the punch.

I saved a copy of one of my posts that explains Incarnum on BG. I'm going to write something similar after I start the Incarnate Handbook (which is nearly finished on a flash drive).

Zaq
2009-10-31, 03:37 AM
I thought so at first, too. Then I tried to play one.

The mechanics, in general, I don't think are as bad as some say. However, there are a lot of Soulmelds, and you get access to... all of them. At 1st level. To make matters worse, the Incarnate/Soulborn soulmelds and the Totemist soulmelds are all mixed together, despite the fact that there's like a grand total of 3 overlapping soulmelds between them. The handy chart only tells you about the shaping bonus, not about the investment or binding bonuses, so you can't rely on that. Basically, it's really hard to keep track of all the soulmelds that are available - which can you shape, which can you bind, how much essentia can you invest in them, and most importantly (and most difficult-ly) what they do when you do any of those things. I've made several mistakes on my Totemist so far.

Dude, I've played a Binder/Incarnate/Chameleon. You want to talk about juggling a lot of options every morning... let's just say I know what it's like. Yeah, there are a lot of options, but it's still easier than, say, a prepared (especially divine) caster. And, as Sinfire said, index cards really help.

Keld Denar
2009-10-31, 07:39 AM
What about a Totemist's Double Bind? It gives the Totemist the ability to bind a single meld to his totem and one other slot. Does this count as 1 bind, or 2? If that Totemist took the feat Double Chakra and chose his Totem as the bind he'd like to bind 2 melds to, would he be able to bind those melds to both his totem AND another chakra slot, thanks to the Double Totem Bind ability? Would this effectively give him 4 binds at the price of 2?

oxybe
2009-10-31, 08:06 AM
pipes of the sewers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pipesoftheSewers), maybe?

it doesn't summon them, but it calls nearby rats to gather in a swarm of rats. now the swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm) rules state that a swarm of tiny animals (like rats) is composed of about 300 creatures. lots of rats. living rats. that are not summoned. so they stay after they die.

now, this is entirely dependent on how your DM feels like ruling it but after dealing all 18 damage needed to kill the swarm (alright, you can't "kill" a swarm but it does disperse after taking enough damage which hopefully means you killed some of the creatures in it), you could attempt to make a case for each rat corpse being a "creature" and thus a viable target to drain, though i would imagine most GMs calling the swarm one creature.

Boci
2009-10-31, 08:20 AM
So Sinfire, would you say the soul harvest thingy would work better as a feat, or does the concept of the PrC have enough merit to warrant an attempt at fixing?

CockroachTeaParty
2009-10-31, 10:39 AM
If not, does that mean that the Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra feats are useless for builds non-meldshapers?

I'm guessing that the second answer is true, and that the feats are there as a way for multiclass meldshapers to expand their choice of powers and continue to gain access to more powerful chakra slots as they gain levels. But I just wanted to confirm.

Shape Soulmeld isn't necessarily worthless for a non-meldshaper. An artificer, for example, really benefits from having Mage's Spectacles (+4 Spellcraft, Decipher Script, and Use Magic Device). It's better than Skill Focus (UMD).

Kyeudo
2009-10-31, 10:40 AM
When dealing with the Necrocarnate, people often forget that chickens don't cost much to buy, don't weigh terribly much, and most Necrocarnates have a Necrocarnum zombie or two around to do their heavy lifting. All combined, it means that a Necrocarnate can pack around a supply of chickens for when he can't find enough birds/squirrels/insects to kill, like a supply of Essentia potions.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-31, 01:50 PM
What about a Totemist's Double Bind? It gives the Totemist the ability to bind a single meld to his totem and one other slot. Does this count as 1 bind, or 2? If that Totemist took the feat Double Chakra and chose his Totem as the bind he'd like to bind 2 melds to, would he be able to bind those melds to both his totem AND another chakra slot, thanks to the Double Totem Bind ability? Would this effectively give him 4 binds at the price of 2?

Double Bind allows one soulmeld bound to your Totem to be bound to another, but it still costs the Chakra bind. Double Chakra is standard for melee Totemists (ranged ones don't need more than one Totem), but it too requires both binds to take up one of your daily uses. The Open Chakra feats/spells/powers are the only RAW way to get an additional chakra bind/day.


So Sinfire, would you say the soul harvest thingy would work better as a feat, or does the concept of the PrC have enough merit to warrant an attempt at fixing?

It would be better subsumed into the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat, yes. Really, giving the PrC Medium BAB or even Full fixes it to the point that you can be competent. If they had just given it the Ironsoul Forgemaster's meldshaper progression (9/10ths) it would be a lot less confusing even with the 13 levels.

The other problems are with the Necrocarnum melds themselves; most of them are very weak effects or can be replaced with other soulmelds entirely. Revamping those to be on-par with a Dread Necromancer would go a long way to fixing the problems (and it would make NE Incarnate more enjoyable).

Boci
2009-10-31, 01:57 PM
It would be better subsumed into the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat, yes. Really, giving the PrC Medium BAB or even Full fixes it to the point that you can be competent. If they had just given it the Ironsoul Forgemaster's meldshaper progression (9/10ths) it would be a lot less confusing even with the 13 levels.

The other problems are with the Necrocarnum melds themselves; most of them are very weak effects or can be replaced with other soulmelds entirely. Revamping those to be on-par with a Dread Necromancer would go a long way to fixing the problems (and it would make NE Incarnate more enjoyable).

Thanks. I really like the Necrocarnum so its a shame to hear they are underpowered, but its good to hear its not that hard to fix them.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-31, 02:01 PM
Thanks. I really like the Necrocarnum so its a shame to hear they are underpowered, but its good to hear its not that hard to fix them.

The zombie itself is really good at the lower levels, but not so good at the higher ones due to HD restriction. If the Necrocarnate instead gave you the ability to animate and control double your Meldshaper level's worth of a single zombie, it would be worth using at the high levels.

Glimbur
2009-10-31, 02:27 PM
Am I hearing a volunteer to formally write up these ideas? Because I'll let you have first dibs if you want. Otherwise I'll put this on my to-do list.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-31, 03:26 PM
Am I hearing a volunteer to formally write up these ideas? Because I'll let you have first dibs if you want. Otherwise I'll put this on my to-do list.

Busy working on:


3 campaigns
The Incarnum Monk
A Summoner based on Kamigawa+Incarnum
An Aberrant version of the Totemist
A Construct version of the Totemist
The Book of Expansions
The Incarnate Handbook
The Totemist Handbook
The Crusader Handbook
An RPG system (along with 8 others)
A Web Design class that I'm failing epicly



Kinda got a lot on my plate. I'd be happy to offer criticism and ideas, but that's about it.