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DareTheRogue
2009-10-29, 05:15 PM
I am considering my options to making a Sorcerer Gish. Abjurant Champion is a must when the BAB is sufficient but I do not find a Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5 appealing. What other PrCs can I use in this build to help out?

Eldariel
2009-10-29, 05:17 PM
I am considering my options to making a Sorcerer Gish. Abjurant Champion is a must when the BAB is sufficient but I do not find a Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5 appealing. What other PrCs can I use in this build to help out?

The classic Sorcadin is:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

A simple Fighter-base version would be:
Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 8/Abjurant Champion 5 (or one level Spellsword again)
Fighter 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is fine too


Basically, you can afford to lose 2 CLs while still reaching 9th level spells in your pre-epic career, so some such works best.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-29, 05:19 PM
Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Swiftblade8 is another interesting build.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 05:22 PM
Desert Kobold Sorcadin:

Pally 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8, grabbing Greater Rite of Passage (web enhancement for Races of the Dragon) at 6th level.


Alternatively, Crusader 2/Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 9. Same effect, but with 7th or 8th level maneuvers thrown in for good measure.

DareTheRogue
2009-10-29, 06:06 PM
Ok going to go for Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight8/Abjurant Champion 5 sounds easiest...

Thurbane
2009-10-29, 09:37 PM
If you want full casting, one of my builds is Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Battle Sorcerer 6

20/20 casting, all martial weapons, BAB +16.

...and yes, yes, I know, Battle Sorcerer is the suxx0rz! :smallamused:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-29, 10:34 PM
If you want full casting, one of my builds is Battle Sorcerer 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Battle Sorcerer 6

20/20 casting, all martial weapons, BAB +16.

...and yes, yes, I know, Battle Sorcerer is the suxx0rz! :smallamused:

Sure... full casting... might even be useful if you had any spells known to cast with your slots...

I second the Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/Sacred Exorcist8. Casting stat to all saves.

ex cathedra
2009-10-29, 11:40 PM
Ok going to go for Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight8/Abjurant Champion 5 sounds easiest...

But... Paladin 2 is so much better than that level of fighter. You would have to avoid EK after that or risk losing 9th level spells at 20, but really.. charisma to all saves is a big deal.

Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/Sacred Exorcist8 would really be quite fine. There are a few levels that could be substituted out if you would like some variation.

Thurbane
2009-10-30, 02:01 AM
Sure... full casting... might even be useful if you had any spells known to cast with your slots...

I second the Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/Sacred Exorcist8. Casting stat to all saves.
OK, spells known for my build at level 20 are:
8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 2

For your build, it's:
9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1

...not that big of a gap. And mine gets two 9th levels. :smallbiggrin:

Farlion
2009-10-30, 04:30 AM
*deleted, too dumb to read properly*

Cheers,
Farlion

Haven
2009-10-30, 04:36 AM
Since when do sorcerers have to be chaotic?

Iku Rex
2009-10-30, 04:37 AM
... the "chaotic" alignment for sorceror ...No such rule. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer)

arguskos
2009-10-30, 04:38 AM
Just a quick question: How do you get the "chaotic" alignment for sorceror and the "lawful" for paladin in one character?

Do you just ignore the alignments?

Cheers,
Farlion
Sorcerers don't have to be chaotic...? They have alignment: any. :smallconfused:

EDIT: OHMYNINJA

Autopsibiofeeder
2009-10-30, 05:34 AM
All those mentioning you should seek to lose no more than 2 caster levels are right, of course, but there's a few questions you should ask yourself:

-What does gish mean to you?
Do you want a full caster that happens to have some weapon and armor proficiencies he uses to smack stuff, or do you want to play a fighter-type character that happens to have a whole lot of cool tricks up his/her sleeve?

-Will you ever reach epic, or even, say, 16th level?
If not, then the 9th level spells thing becomes a bit moot.

In my experience, a gish that focuses fully on spellcasting, aiming to reach 9th level spells and such will reach a point where he/she thinks "What on earth am I doing waving this sword about?"

I personally prefer the fighter-orientated gish. The last one I built reaches 16th level sorcerer casting (effectively 20 with practiced spellcaster). It is the typical Pal 2 / Sor 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abj champion 5 / Spellsword 4 / sorcerer 4. He plays and claims to be a paladin, ending up in field-plate armor, using his sorcerer spells to buff a bit (e.g. Gr. mighty wallop, Haste), but mostly to enable himself to be a good (better) paladin:
Mount/Phantom steed to provide a mount,
Break enchantment / Major creation / Fabricate / Leo's tiny hut etc. to provide for the needy
Teleport and Dispelling and such because that is what every caster should be able to do.
Fly, Spider climb and some to provide mobility and options.

In the end, during play, he is a paladin, a melee fighter. The spells are there to broaden his options, enhance the roleplay and provide support to those he feels responsible for. In this type of gish losing 4 caster levels is no problem at all. I think I would not even mind losing two more if that would enable me to emphasize the fighter side more without losing too much versatility.

That is the question you should ask yourself before starting to technically build: If a bard would write a poem about me, describing my ways in and out of combat, what would that poem be like?

Arakune
2009-10-30, 06:27 AM
All those mentioning you should seek to lose no more than 2 caster levels are right, of course, but there's a few questions you should ask yourself:

-What does gish mean to you?

Normaly a Gish is someone that meets one of the two:

BAB +16;
Access to 9th level Spells/Powers;

The best gishes manage both, but they can focus on meele (+17 BAB, 8th level spells) or spellcasting (more/earlier 9th level spells, BAB +14~+15).

That's the definition of gishes.

Autopsibiofeeder
2009-10-30, 07:14 AM
Without agreeing or disagreeing with your point/definition (don't want to open that can of worms :smallwink: ), that is pretty much beside the point I tried to make, Arakune. "I want to build a gish" is in my opinion too little information to start building/advicing upon.

Do you want to empower your melee with spell channeling and arcane strike, like spellswords and duskblades? Do you find it cool to wear full armor, or do you fancy a dexterity swift combatant?

Or do you want to use your spells to transmute your surroundings, impeding, disabling and singling foes out before closing in for melee? Perhaps you envision a devastating archer?

Perhaps you want to use your spells to compensate for all the fighter's weaknesses...you know, just miscellaneous spells that make life easier. Boosting your skills a la Voice of the dragon, Alarm, Detect secret doors and Comprehend languages/Tongues, adding movement modes through benign transposition, spider climb and other teleportation/fly-ey effects.

Maybe a bit of all? All those concepts can fulfill the 'gish' requirement, but all are very different builds.

Arakune
2009-10-30, 07:46 AM
Without agreeing or disagreeing with your point/definition (don't want to open that can of worms :smallwink: ), that is pretty much beside the point I tried to make, Arakune. "I want to build a gish" is in my opinion too little information to start building/advicing upon.

Do you want to empower your melee with spell channeling and arcane strike, like spellswords and duskblades? Do you find it cool to wear full armor, or do you fancy a dexterity swift combatant?

Or do you want to use your spells to transmute your surroundings, impeding, disabling and singling foes out before closing in for melee? Perhaps you envision a devastating archer?

Perhaps you want to use your spells to compensate for all the fighter's weaknesses...you know, just miscellaneous spells that make life easier. Boosting your skills a la Voice of the dragon, Alarm, Detect secret doors and Comprehend languages/Tongues, adding movement modes through benign transposition, spider climb and other teleportation/fly-ey effects.

Maybe a bit of all? All those concepts can fulfill the 'gish' requirement, but all are very different builds.

Well, you could argue that a 'gish' is just someone that uses spells and can fight well with weapons. Them a paladin or ranger is enough of gish, and even the assassin is a 'prestige gish' for rogues. But even by that definition the cleric is one of the best gishes around: full plate armor, proficiency with maces, 9th level spellcasting and know every single spell from his spell list + domain spells/powers; or the druid: 9th level spellcasting, wildshape, a fighter an animal companion...

How you build your gish is mostly irrelevant: the key is to mix survivability (better hp, armor, bab, some saves) with spellcasting (offensive, defensive, utility). That is a 'gish' by the common definition.

Longcat
2009-10-30, 08:17 AM
Crusader2/Sorcerer4/Jade Phoenix Mage9/Abjurant Champion5
(Crusader1/Sorcerer4/Crusader+1/Jade Phoenix Mage1/Abjurant Champion5/JAde Phoenix Mage+8)

BAB: +18
CL: 16 (20 with Practised Spellcaster)
Features:
-a single 8th level maneuver from Desert Wind/Devoted Spirit, and 8 other maneuvers depending upon your taste.
-Ability to quicken/empower one spell per encounter for free
-3rd level Abjuration spells as a swift action
-Insanely high AC due to Abjurant Champion
-Cha to Will saves
-High melee damage output (Arcane Wrath+Arcane Strike)
-Highly mobile
-Highly customizable: other than Combat Casting and Practised Spellcaster, you're free to choose your feats. Want a charger? Take "Leading the Charge" as your first level stance, and take Shock Trooper. Want battlefield control? Take Stormguard Warrior (requires Warblade instead of Crusader), Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Enlarge Person, and a reach weapon.

Recommended spells (I'll deliberately leave out the Polymorph line of spells, but add them if you wish):
0: Anything you like. I prefer Detect Magic, Predistigitation, Caltrops and Read Magic.
1: Benign Transposition, Shield, Protection from Evil, True Strike, Enlarge Person
2: Whirling Blade, Wings of Cover, Wraithstrike, Mirror Image, Glitterdust
3: Heart of Water, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Dragon Skin, Dispel Magic
4: Wings of Flurry, Shadow Conjuration, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles
5: Telekinesis, Shadow Evocation, Overland Flight
6: Greater Heroism, Disintegrate, Contingency
7: Spell Turning, Greater Teleport
8: Mind Blank

Note that this list is far from optimised; it's merely a suggestion I came up with on the fly.

DareTheRogue
2009-10-30, 11:12 AM
I am not using ToB.

Sorry should have said that in the beginning. I like Swiftblade, but we do not use online sources.

I let things play out with my group, what everyone else is playing and we have at the moment a Cleric, Rogue and Druid. The cleric is playing a clothy and at 3rd level we are wondering what our survivability is without a Tank, but I had originally opted to play a Sorcerer.

So I said I would play a Gish, and try to balance the party a bit. Though I may not be the most able body fighter I plan on getting the most out of my spellcasting as I can, as little of a dip of CL as possible.

On top of that I asked, got permission and not want to play a Spellscale. So I am happy to be playing one.

Before I had begun I had considered playing a Draconic Dwarven Sorcerer though Dwarven Sorcerer 9/Earth Dreamer 5/Abjurant Champion 5. No LA Buy Off allowed though, so I'd lose 1 CL...

But my spellscale is going 1 fighter/6 sorcerer/8 EK/5 Abjurant

jiriku
2009-10-30, 11:40 AM
Ahem. You should bear in mind that with a druid in the party, you can summon all the tanks you can bear to deal with. You'll, ahh, bearly need to tank. Between the druid's animal companion, his animal form, and his summons, you'd have a bear minimum of three servicable tanks. Ahh, what animal would you use for this? I'm not sure, but perhaps someone else can bring some good advice to bear on that problem.

(ducks the torrent of rotten vegetables thrown his way)

Gnaeus
2009-10-30, 11:44 AM
The cleric is a better tank than the typical sorcerer gish. Most gishes are more strikers, who deal lots of damage, than tanks.

DareTheRogue
2009-10-30, 01:20 PM
Yes I understand that our cleric could be an amazing tank, but he isn't going to be... he is going cloistered cleric and then contemplative according to him. While our druid is nuts and wants to go into Seeker of the Misty Isle before getting Wild Shape. A bit of a letdown. So we all collectively have to attempt some of the tanking work, while I admit if I am tanking then I believe my character is going to be quick about dieing, but I will attempt.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-30, 01:38 PM
OK, spells known for my build at level 20 are:
8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 2

For your build, it's:
9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1

...not that big of a gap. And mine gets two 9th levels. :smallbiggrin:

Mine gets Casting Stat to all saves which makes it harder to shut you down. Also, an extra spell *KNOWN* at 1st-7th is... exceedingly valuable. I'm not aware of any other spells known at 9th other than Time Stop, unless you want to count Gate/Wish abuse, which is too cheesy for my tastes.

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 01:43 PM
Mine gets Casting Stat to all saves which makes it harder to shut you down. Also, an extra spell *KNOWN* at 1st-7th is... exceedingly valuable. I'm not aware of any other spells known at 9th other than Time Stop, unless you want to count Gate/Wish abuse, which is too cheesy for my tastes.

...Shapechange or Disjunction or Maw of Chaos or Prismatic Sphere or Reaving Dispel or Astral Projection or Foresight or Dominate Monster or Shades or Mindrape or Programmed Amnesia or Instant Refuge? Last I checked there were lots of very, very useful 9th level spells, for Gishes or straight casters.

That said, I really like getting casting stat to saves and qualifying for all the Smite-derived feats. And getting Turn Undead for Divine Might! Though no reason Thurbane's build couldn't fit Sacred Exorcist too, I suppose.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-30, 02:23 PM
...Shapechange or Disjunction or Maw of Chaos or Prismatic Sphere or Reaving Dispel or Astral Projection or Foresight or Dominate Monster or Shades or Mindrape or Programmed Amnesia or Instant Refuge? Last I checked there were lots of very, very useful 9th level spells, for Gishes or straight casters.

That said, I really like getting casting stat to saves and qualifying for all the Smite-derived feats. And getting Turn Undead for Divine Might! Though no reason Thurbane's build couldn't fit Sacred Exorcist too, I suppose.

Foresight is only good if you have a way of Persisting it. The rest are either worthless or too cheesy. Shapechange and Mindrape are two that are too cheezy. Disjunction blows up treasure, reaving dispel sucks, Instant Refuge is silly: use Contingency Celerity instead, Maw of Chaos is blastomancy, Prismatic Sphere sticks you in place, Shades gives everything another save and removes SR:NO from Conjuration effects, Astral Projection is only useful if your campaign goes in that direction. Dominate Monster sucks because nothing worth using it on is affected by it.

So yea... I stand by my original statement.

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 02:33 PM
Foresight is only good if you have a way of Persisting it.

It's 10 min/level; Greater Rod of Extend and two castings gives you a nice adventuring day coverage.


Disjunction blows up treasure

It's also a very good solution to some buff monkeys. If they have good Will-saves, you have nothing to worry about with regards to the equipment.


reaving dispel sucks

Meh, only if you have Chain Spell for Chain Greater Dispel Magic instead.


Instant Refuge is silly: use Contingency Celerity instead

You complain about cheese and then bring up Celerity? Also, twice the Contingencies is never bad.


Maw of Chaos is blastomancy

It's also a SoL and uncapped, constant damage; definitely worth having in your repertoire, if only to lock creatures to hell.


Prismatic Sphere sticks you in place

It has its uses. No reason a Gish can't use ranged attacks in conjuction with Sphere protection.


Shades gives everything another save and removes SR:NO from Conjuration effects

Still replicates pretty much all Conjurations in one spell; that's pretty useful if only for the non-offensive ones.


Astral Projection is only useful if your campaign goes in that direction.

Immortality is nice.


Dominate Monster sucks because nothing worth using it on is affected by it.

Eh, depends. Getting your own Tarrasques or such has its uses; not the greatest thing ever, but you didn't invest much to it anyways.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-30, 02:59 PM
It has its uses. No reason a Gish can't use ranged attacks in conjuction with Sphere protection.

Actually, yes there is. Like Prismatic Wall, Prismatic Sphere blocks incoming and outgoing. So you basically turtle, and that's it. Like Resilient Sphere, only less so.

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 03:04 PM
Actually, yes there is. Like Prismatic Wall, Prismatic Sphere blocks incoming and outgoing. So you basically turtle, and that's it. Like Resilient Sphere, only less so.

Yeah, but you move out, attack, and move back in. With a spell's worth of swift movement, that's quite easy and keeps you protected from everything but readied actions.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-30, 03:16 PM
Yeah, but you move out, attack, and move back in. With a spell's worth of swift movement, that's quite easy and keeps you protected from everything but readied actions.

Except you get hit by all the layers of your own Sphere when you move through it... odds of a Nat 1 showing up every time you go through it and ending up on a random plane is too risky. Not to mention the save/half damage eventually adds up.

Since, yanno, it also blocks 'porting and stuff...

Keld Denar
2009-10-30, 03:20 PM
While not sorcerer based, Suel Arcanamach is still Cha based casting. I'd suggest either Fighter2/Barb2/Duskblade2 or Paladin4/Duskblade2 to enter it, and then imediately PrC into Abj Champion. Final build looks like this:

X6/Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4

Where X is just about any full BAB combination, although the 2 I posted are good.

Suel Arcanamach is pretty fun for being Gishy. Especially after you hit AbjChamp5, your spells will be virtually undispellable, due to the +6 DC. If you really want to go overboard, get a Ring of Enduring Arcana and your CL will be +10 with regards to resisting dispels. The Dispelling Strike is kinda crappy, but the spellcasting is the best feature. Load up on good Transmutations and protective Illusions and you'll wreck people. Also, Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) is your friend!

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 03:20 PM
Except you get hit by all the layers of your own Sphere when you move through it... odds of a Nat 1 showing up every time you go through it and ending up on a random plane is too risky. Not to mention the save/half damage eventually adds up.

Since, yanno, it also blocks 'porting and stuff...

You, provided you don't have Flyby Attack, can just use Greater Slide or similar to move past it. *Shrug* I don't see what the problem is. Sphere specifically allows you to move through it.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-30, 03:24 PM
Except you get hit by all the layers of your own Sphere when you move through it... odds of a Nat 1 showing up every time you go through it and ending up on a random plane is too risky. Not to mention the save/half damage eventually adds up.

Since, yanno, it also blocks 'porting and stuff...


You can pass into and out of the prismatic sphere and remain near it without harm. However, when you’re inside it, the sphere blocks any attempt to project something through the sphere (including spells). Other creatures that attempt to attack you or pass through suffer the effects of each color, one at a time.


You were saying?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-30, 03:25 PM
You were saying?

Hmm... somehow missed that. Does almost make it worth it. Not viable, but almost.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-30, 03:30 PM
Hmm... somehow missed that. Does almost make it worth it. Not viable, but almost.

Flyby Attack+Prismatic Sphere=Death. This is why Casters can turtle; they retain their offensive powers and can go defensive without restricting long-term abilities like feats or magic items. Spell slots can be renewed and reoriented every day, allowing you to pick your role at your leisure.


Melee can't turtle because they have to over-commit to make it effective. Casters are freely capable of turtling because of spells/day.