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Eldariel
2009-10-30, 06:06 AM
In this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129851), I complained how PF ripped the Tarrasque a new hole, and went on to claim that a Fighter 20 could kill it (of course not "Kill Kill" since that's apparently meant to be undoable, but beat in combat and keep in negatives indefinitely).

Cue PM telling me to put my money where my mouth is and kill the bloody Tarrasque with a Fighter 20. So I figured if I'm gonna bother, might as well make a thread about it if for no other reason than it's incredibly inconvenient to start long chains of PMs on how to kill some stupid beast a dozen times, and because I'll need help restatting the beast for latter stages and someone non-me to run it.

I also decided to be an idiot and up the stakes by stating that not only will I building a Fighter 20 that kills the Tarrasque, but I'll build a bunch of Fighter 20s and killing the Tarrasque with all of them, followed by asking someone from the boards to refeat the Tarrasque and repeat the challenge with some real challenge thrown in.


For the record:
The Beast to Slay (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html#tarrasque)

Fighters will be built with the following rules:

32pb
Standard WPL
3.5 official book sources, no Dragon Magazine
No multiclassing allowed
Fights as a Fighter


The fight will take place under 3.5 rules (because it's easier to convert one monster to 3.5 than to convert whole 3.5 into PF), which means the Tarrasque is converted on the fly; this means it has +43 Spot & Listen, but otherwise there are no relevant changes.

The following Fighters will be built:

Archer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=163500)
Panzerwagen
Charger (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=164101)
Lockdown
Stealth Fighter
Unarmed Brawler (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=163711)
Finally, as a tribute to all the item wizardy bullcrap we've recently had, a Fighter UMD Wizard (this is the only one that isn't constrained by the "a Fighter that is a FIGHTER"-rule)


Archer is ready for action hence me making this thread. I hope you're having fun, Arguskos. Now, I could do a simple mathematical comparison which most likely finds out that the Archer has the Tarrasque dominated (90' flyspeed sees to it that in one full-round, the Fighter should be able to get outside the Tarrasque's reach and +26 Spines vs. 44 AC are pretty weak, while the Fighter's arrows are pretty solid).

Simple mathematical comparison is no fun though so I need someone to run the Tarrasque for a PbP fight. Any volunteers? To clarify, at first I just wanna kill the Tarrasque a few times. Then we'll do a restat and see how much harder a teleporting, flying tarrasque is to kill.

Another_Poet will DM at least the initial fights. The OOC thread is here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130082

Bayar
2009-10-30, 06:11 AM
You wanna fight with a bow against the Tarrasque ? Alone ? Isnt that a bit...I dunno, sad ?

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 06:13 AM
You wanna fight with a bow against the Tarrasque ? Alone ? Isnt that a bit...I dunno, sad ?

PF Tarrasque has a ranged attack.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-30, 06:14 AM
For Archer: I recommend Splitting Enhancement (doubles arrows shot).

So is the Fighters a party or is does each Fighter have to do it solo?

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 06:16 AM
For Archer: I recommend Splitting Enhancement (doubles arrows shot).

So is the Fighters a party or is does each Fighter have to do it solo?

Each Fighter soloes it. That's why I'm already asking for a DM even though only one of the Fighters is done.

As for Splitting, I'd kinda like to, but I wanted to use Raptor Arrows instead, and given that they are effectively returning, splitting them may be a bit counterproductive.

BobVosh
2009-10-30, 06:32 AM
Eld, you and your concepts. Anyway what is terrain like? Is big bad T charging a town and you have to stop him? Or common featureless plain?

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 06:34 AM
Eld, you and your concepts. Anyway what is terrain like? Is big bad T charging a town and you have to stop him? Or common featureless plain?

*shrug* None defined. I don't ultimately think it makes much difference, but a featureless or featured plain seems more appropriate given the Tarrasque should be attacking the Tarrasque Slayer anyways; "hitting its weak spot for massive damage" should be a pretty good way of stopping it from charging a town.

The PF Tarrasque has this line:
"Although far from intelligent, the tarrasque is smart enough to understand a few words in Aklo (though it cannot speak). Likewise, it isn't mindless in its rampages, but instead focuses on targets that threaten it, and is difficult to distract with trickery."

When the slayer hits it for third-half of its HP, it probably realizes that the Slayer is a threat and needs to be eliminated.


EDIT: Ultimately, I'll leave that up to whomever DMs this. I bet I'll end up in a huge cavern for this...

Myou
2009-10-30, 06:37 AM
I wholeheartedly support this venture. :smallsmile:

Bayar
2009-10-30, 07:27 AM
He might just retreat well away from you and then speed charge you while leaping in the air towards you.

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 07:32 AM
He might just retreat well away from you and then speed charge you while leaping in the air towards you.

So are you a volunteer DM then?

But if it gives the archer time to climb to ~300', chances are even the leap won't be enough to reach him. And don't take the archer lightly; he can dish out enough damage to make even the Tarrasque take note. And the bloody Tarrasque has a ranged attack. Why wouldn't it use that?

Melamoto
2009-10-30, 08:07 AM
And the bloody Tarrasque has a ranged attack. Why wouldn't it use that?

It isn't mindless. It has 6 +25 ranged attacks. It has 5 +37 Melee attacks and 1 +32 Melee attack. And 1 of those melee attacks crits on a 15-20.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-30, 08:19 AM
I suggest a Shroud of Night: +2 deflect AC, 1/day DAncing Shadows.
Dancing Shadows when used on 1 target (self as example) is total concealment. You are effectively invisible.

Only lasts 5 rounds, but then you can buy potions of displacement if need be (but sadly Displacement isn't invisible).

Now it can't use ranged attacks on you (can't target you while invisible) only squares it assumes you are in.

It can jump, but not Fly.

And invisible flying creature... it has no chance of detecting square.

Fluffles
2009-10-30, 08:50 AM
Why bother converting the PF big T and not just use the 3.5?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tarrasque

AtwasAwamps
2009-10-30, 08:54 AM
Why bother converting the PF big T and not just use the 3.5?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tarrasque

I think that the point was that the PF big T is lame and sad, but the regular 3.5 tarrasque is RAWRTOUGH

Tiki Snakes
2009-10-30, 08:58 AM
Why bother converting the PF big T and not just use the 3.5?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tarrasque

Because the thread is explictly started about the pathfinder terrasque? I thought it was the entire point?

Bayar
2009-10-30, 09:09 AM
So are you a volunteer DM then?

But if it gives the archer time to climb to ~300', chances are even the leap won't be enough to reach him. And don't take the archer lightly; he can dish out enough damage to make even the Tarrasque take note. And the bloody Tarrasque has a ranged attack. Why wouldn't it use that?

No, id probably screw up as a dm.

Ok, climb to 300 ft. Take the penalties from range increments.

BooNL
2009-10-30, 09:22 AM
No, id probably screw up as a dm.

Ok, climb to 300 ft. Take the penalties from range increments.

He's got all day...

Lapak
2009-10-30, 09:25 AM
No, id probably screw up as a dm.

Ok, climb to 300 ft. Take the penalties from range increments.Since the range on his bow is 255 feet, he's only one range increment out. He has +42 to hit vs. an armor class of 40. I don't think the range increment is really going to be a major hassle. Actually, since his range is so extreme he could go up another 100 feet and still be in the same range increment.

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 12:48 PM
No, id probably screw up as a dm.

Ok, climb to 300 ft. Take the penalties from range increments.

Honestly, as Lapak said, one increment isn't going to be much of a dent to the Archer's damage output. The attack run accounting for Haste is:

+43/+43/+43/+38/+33/+28, of which the first 3 are "1 or hit" regardless of increments, the second does have a higher chance of failure with one increment (normally it's "1 or hit", with one increment it's "1-to-3 or hit"), third one I take 10 in for 43 or 41 [Weapon Supremacy] and fourth one gets the +5; it's the only one with relevant failure chance needing 7 or higher to hit normally and 9 or higher with one increment.

So 3 nearly-autohits and 1 autohit regardless of whether I'm within the first or the second increment, and one 85% (down from 95%) chance to hit and one 60% (down from 70%); with average damage being 4.5*3+28+3.5*2=48.5 per hit, that equals to 48.5+4*48.5*.95+48.5*.7=266.75 damage without increment and 48.5+3*48.5*.95+48.5*.85+48.5*.6=257.05, so the loss is a grand total of 9.7 points of damage; I daresay, that's not going to be a significant enough difference to matter in this particular fight.

Second increment would be notably more relevant since while the first 3 attacks are still 95% hits, the Take 10 cannot be used on the third attack for an autohit anymore forcing me to roll two low bonus attacks. That would be 48.5+3*48.5*.95+2*48.5*.5=235.225 damage (the alternative is rolling one at 48.5*.75 and other at 48.5*.25, to same average damage). Still, that's still very respectable (enough to kill Big T in 3 volleys accounting for Regeneration, same as the other two) and that's from up to 765' (and even one more increment would maintain the three-turn kill though having an extra 5% chance to miss the first 3 attacks is a significant drawback - quick calculation says 218,25 average; that's 1000' away). I don't think 300' will be any problem.


By the way, since it has ironically probably gotten lost in the OP, I'd like to repeat the request:
Looking for Tarrasque-running DM!

The Mentalist
2009-10-30, 01:08 PM
I've never run a play-by-post but I'll take the Tarrasque.

Fluffles
2009-10-30, 01:12 PM
I'll take control if I have a sheet right in front of me.

Another_Poet
2009-10-30, 01:26 PM
*tosses down glove*

You, sir, have dishonoured the virtuous name of Tarrasque and Tarrasquekind. I accept your challenge and I anticipate with glee your final demise! I shall chortle as my champion chomps upon your bones. Isn't that right, Tarry?

Tarry the Tarrasque: Tarra! Tarra!

I volunteer my services as DM.

I will need to ask fellow forumites to look over your build for rules-legality to make sure I don't miss anything before the fights begin.

ap

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 01:30 PM
Hm, alright then - pardon me Mentalist & Fluffles, but AP is quite experienced PbP DM so I'm going to turn to him for this particular challenge. Besides, he truly stands for what he's fighting for!

Another_Poet, I trust you'll put up the map for the fight on your convenience? And we shall get the fight underway.


The OOC thread is here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7221238#post7221238

We shall meet on the field of honor!

The Mentalist
2009-10-30, 01:40 PM
I'll yield to that. I rather like the guy anyway.

sofawall
2009-10-30, 01:42 PM
And here was me, about to volunteer.

You certainly got a handful at the end, there.

Cieyrin
2009-10-30, 01:45 PM
I'll take control if I have a sheet right in front of me.

Your sheet is right here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html#tarrasque

Another_Poet
2009-10-30, 01:48 PM
Hm, alright then - pardon me Mentalist & Fluffles, but AP is quite experienced PbP DM so I'm going to turn to him for this particular challenge. Besides, he truly stands for what he's fighting for!

Another_Poet, I trust you'll put up the map for the fight on your convenience? And we shall get the fight underway.


The OOC thread is here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7221238#post7221238

We shall meet on the field of honor!


Wow, awesome. Yep I will put up a map. Just so you know, I won't be ready to rumble until Sunday or Monday. I need to re-read the Tarrasque flavour text, decide on tactics (yeah you asked for it) and figure out what kind of terrain to use.

If that's not soon enough I'll understand if you go with someone else, but if you're willing to wait, I promise to do my very best to destroy you.

Meanwhile, may I please have three (3) volunteers who know the 3.5 splatbooks look at Eldariel's Archer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=163500) build and make sure that feats, gear, skills, stats, etc are all correct and rules legal?

Many thanks...

ap

Fluffles
2009-10-30, 01:49 PM
I've been doing PbP for quite a while. Just not on this site.

Side note: Hey AP. Didn't know you did PbP here as well :smalltongue:

EDIT: Checking his sheet now for ya'

The Mentalist
2009-10-30, 01:49 PM
I can at least run over his sheet, sounds like fun.

Another_Poet
2009-10-30, 01:50 PM
I've been doing PbP for quite a while. Just not on this site.

Side note: Hey AP. Didn't know you did PbP here as well :smalltongue:

Hey Fluffles! :)

The Mentalist
2009-10-30, 01:53 PM
Quick question to save me from massive unnecessary book digging. Where's Raptor Arrow from?

Akal Saris
2009-10-30, 01:55 PM
Eldariel, I'll be glad to run the tarrasque vs. Lockdown fighter, as that is something that I'd like to see. Unless AP's intending to run the fight multiple times to test each build, anyhow.

Though there would be two additional constraints: I'd prefer running it on rpol.net, since I'm more familiar with that board, and also I'd like to see you accomplish this using PF-only rules (all paizo products allowed - which both brings the book list from ~400 to ~20, and also encourages optimizing within PF rules, which so far haven't seen much attention from the min/max crowd). If you're up for the challenge, that is.

AP, I'll check over his archer for you.

Oh, and because the image makes me laugh:

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/12/1/633636917916939350-flyingtarrasque.jpg

Nero24200
2009-10-30, 01:56 PM
Is a DM really needed to run the thing? It might be big, it might be immune to a bunch of stuff, but it's still just an Int 3 animal. That means it's standard battle tactics will probably consist of the following programming-esc scenarios

A): Is target alive?
Yes: See B
No: Find another target

B): Is target within range of melee attacks?
Yes: Charge
No: See C)

C): Is target in range of ranged attacks?
Yes: Use Ranged attacks and move closer
No: Move closer

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 01:57 PM
Quick question to save me from massive unnecessary book digging. Where's Raptor Arrow from?

Magic Item Compendium. The entire equipment list is DMG and MiC only. Feats are...umm, Education is Player's Guide to Faerun IIRC (and a dozen other sources), Knowledge Devotion is Complete Champion, Resolute is Fighter ACF from Complete Champion, Ranged Weapon Mastery & Weapon Supremacy are both Player's Handbook II and True Believer is Complete Divine. Rest is Core.

And the equipment uses the DMG guideline for same-slot items being usable at 1.5* the price, with MiC rules substituted for the "common boosts" (hence me not bothering to slot them; they'll just be tacked onto other items).

Starbuck_II
2009-10-30, 01:57 PM
Quick question to save me from massive unnecessary book digging. Where's Raptor Arrow from?

I believe he means the Magic Item Compendruim: returning arrows. They don't break like magical ammunition does, but hit enemy and return.

The Mentalist
2009-10-30, 01:59 PM
I knew the rest, I just couldn't place those off the top of my head.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-30, 02:03 PM
Big T is a paper tiger. His ranged attack? Wind Wall+Fly speed. He can't hit you through that, now can he?

sofawall
2009-10-30, 02:09 PM
I believe he means the Magic Item Compendruim: returning arrows. They don't break like magical ammunition does, but hit enemy and return.

They return, do not break, and are bane everything if you fulfill relic requirements.

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 02:12 PM
Eldariel, I'll be glad to run the tarrasque vs. Lockdown fighter, as that is something that I'd like to see. Unless AP's intending to run the fight multiple times to test each build, anyhow.

Though there would be two additional constraints: I'd prefer running it on rpol.net, since I'm more familiar with that board, and also I'd like to see you accomplish this using PF-only rules (all paizo products allowed - which both brings the book list from ~400 to ~20, and also encourages optimizing within PF rules, which so far haven't seen much attention from the min/max crowd). If you're up for the challenge, that is.

I probably won't be able to build a Lockdown character within Pathfinder rules; while Stand Still is fortunately legal, there's no way to outreach the Tarrasque's normal attacks without being at least Gargantuan, and no way at all to outreach the Tail Slap.

That's not much of a problem (though lacking Robilar's Gambit makes matching up to the Regeneration+Damage hard), except every way to become Gargantuan within Pathfinder rules is outside the scope of the challenge; it would require spells (hell, I'm not sure how doable it's even with spells in Pathfinder; it's really limited with size alteration). Within 3.5, I can pull off it, but within Pathfinder it's hard.


Now, this is not to say that I cannot make a Pathfinder build or two that can do this; indeed, I was intent on making one or two (most likely mounted charger and archer) later once I'm done with the 3.5 builds anyways.

Another_Poet
2009-10-30, 02:15 PM
Eldariel, I'll be glad to run the tarrasque vs. Lockdown fighter, as that is something that I'd like to see. Unless AP's intending to run the fight multiple times to test each build, anyhow.

I was intending to run the whole series, but would gladly hand it over to you for the Lockdown fight. Also, best picture in the world.

Regarding Tarry being an "Int 3 animal" - whatever that means - you seem to forget that he is the flippin' Tarrasque. Combat is in his blood (or blood-like healing ichor, or whatever). He is fully capable of tactical combat through pure instinct alone - just like Raptors circle around and ambush, and wolves run things to exhaustion before closing into range of hooves/antlers, Tarry has a few tricks up his sleeve. He will conduct himself on the battlefield like the knightly, battle-proven, insatiable and mentally insane death beast he is.

Speaking of which, his vital stats are now posted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7221509#post7221509)for anyone who wants to take a peek into the life of this normally reclusive creature.

Akal Saris
2009-10-30, 02:20 PM
Yeah, raptor arrows are pretty ridiculous. Would be very nice to have on my swift hunter, though it will never happen.

Anyhow, build notes:
1. at 9th and 10th, switch weapon specialization and ranged weapon mastery around to be legal.

That's the only thing I caught, aside from custom-made magical items. But those follow pretty well established guidelines and don't really impact the overall build very much.

Regarding the build, are there any real reasons for the thug and resolute ACFs, and education? Know (Arcana) should be the only really relevant one for the Knowledge (Devotion), which gives a knowledge skill for free.

Some suggestions would be to grab a tooth of savnok from the ToM for a backup +5 weapon (lets you do GMW at CL 20 1/day, costs 20K), and to look into the woodland archer feat from Races of the Wild.

Choco
2009-10-30, 02:22 PM
Regarding Tarry being an "Int 3 animal" - whatever that means - you seem to forget that he is the flippin' Tarrasque. Combat is in his blood (or blood-like healing ichor, or whatever). He is fully capable of tactical combat through pure instinct alone - just like Raptors circle around and ambush, and wolves run things to exhaustion before closing into range of hooves/antlers, Tarry has a few tricks up his sleeve. He will conduct himself on the battlefield like the knightly, battle-proven, insatiable and mentally insane death beast he is.

I don't know about this, wolves/raptors and such evolved those abilities over time cause it was obviously helpful. The Tarrasque, however, wakes up after sleeping a couple hundred years, walks into a kingdom eating all the fleshy insects, then takes another nap. I doubt it has ever had to tactically fight anything.

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 02:26 PM
Regarding the build, are there any real reasons for the thug and resolute ACFs, and education? Know (Arcana) should be the only really relevant one for the Knowledge (Devotion), which gives a knowledge skill for free.

The build is not Tarrasque Hunter. It's a Fighter 20 Archer who encounters a Tarrasque. As such, I took care to make sure that he's not 100% dedicated to killing the Tarrasque. Heck, he has a ROD OF CANCELLATION in his inventory.

As such, I found it imperative to max out all the Knowledges. As for Resolute, it's again 'cause it ain't only a Tarrasque hunter; failing Will-saves sucks.

Also because Tarrasque has a Frightful Presence and without Resolute, it'd be a 55% fail chance or so. With Resolute, it's 5% and with the Mantle of Second Chances reroll, .25%.


Some suggestions would be to grab a tooth of savnok from the ToM for a backup +5 weapon (lets you do GMW at CL 20 1/day, costs 20K), and to look into the woodland archer feat from Races of the Wild.

Money is kinda tight so I couldn't fit Tooth of Savnok (or even +5 Oil of Magic Weapon), and Woodland Archer felt trivial with this guy's attack bonuses and Weapon Supremacy.


Should I make an introductionary post for Arry too? 'cause I guess it's a she and she's a Fighting-type :smalltongue:

sofawall
2009-10-30, 02:29 PM
That's the only thing I caught, aside from custom-made magical items. But those follow pretty well established guidelines and don't really impact the overall build very much.

Which custom items are those? They all seem to follow the MiC rules.

Also, why the +6 int item?

tyckspoon
2009-10-30, 02:31 PM
Regarding the build, are there any real reasons for the thug and resolute ACFs, and education? Know (Arcana) should be the only really relevant one for the Knowledge (Devotion), which gives a knowledge skill for free.


Seem to just be general build-improvement decisions; they're not especially relevant for the Tarrasque job, but they do help the character be generally competent at things that aren't Tarrasques. Thug improves his skill points, which is vital if he wants to get any general use from Knowledge Devotion, and Resolute helps cover a potential weak point in Will saves.

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 02:35 PM
Which custom items are those? They all seem to follow the MiC rules.

Boots of Speed & Translocation, Belt of Battle & Healing (though I guess that's just silly; he's not using Healing Belt in combat anyways so it could just be separate) and Crystalmask of Mindarmor & Knowledge. Also, the Celestial Armor contains some improvements.


Also, why the +6 int item?

Ensures 36 or higher for Knowledge Devotion while using Collector of Stories.

Akal Saris
2009-10-30, 02:43 PM
I probably won't be able to build a Lockdown character within Pathfinder rules; while Stand Still is fortunately legal, there's no way to outreach the Tarrasque's normal attacks without being at least Gargantuan, and no way at all to outreach the Tail Slap.

That's not much of a problem (though lacking Robilar's Gambit makes matching up to the Regeneration+Damage hard), except every way to become Gargantuan within Pathfinder rules is outside the scope of the challenge; it would require spells (hell, I'm not sure how doable it's even with spells in Pathfinder; it's really limited with size alteration). Within 3.5, I can pull off it, but within Pathfinder it's hard.


Now, this is not to say that I cannot make a Pathfinder build or two that can do this; indeed, I was intent on making one or two (most likely mounted charger and archer) later once I'm done with the 3.5 builds anyways.

Well, the challenge is out there if you figure out a way. Just for suggestions, Lunge gives another+5ft reach on your round, and Strike Back would let you hit him even if he's beyond your reach. Going toe to toe against the big guy wouldn't be pretty though :P

Thanks for answering the build questions. Knowledge Devotion gives you an additional knowledge skill, which is what I was referring to. If it's a general build, I'd suggest getting Precise Shot much earlier too :)

Actually, I noticed that the tarrasque isn't immune to stunning - it's be pretty crazy to have a TWF fighter dual-wielding kukris, going up and slicing into him with Stunning Critical - he'd auto-succeed the fortitude save except on a one, but the tarrasque would be staggered almost every round, and exhausting critical and greater penetrating strike would help with damage and going toe-to-toe with him. Though the tarrasque has stunning critical too, so it would probably be a staggered vs. staggered fight with the kukri wielder using greater vital strike to desperately fight the regeneration...

Another_Poet
2009-10-30, 02:48 PM
I don't know about this, wolves/raptors and such evolved those abilities over time cause it was obviously helpful. The Tarrasque, however, wakes up after sleeping a couple hundred years, walks into a kingdom eating all the fleshy insects, then takes another nap. I doubt it has ever had to tactically fight anything.

Do you know how hard it is to catch every fleshy insect in the kingdom? No, you don't. Because you're not the Tarrasque. But if you were, oh! If you were... you would have the instincts and mettle of 100 dragons from chasing down all those insects.

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 02:50 PM
Well, the challenge is out there if you figure out a way. Just for suggestions, Lunge gives another+5ft reach on your round, and Strike Back would let you hit him even if he's beyond your reach. Going toe to toe against the big guy wouldn't be pretty though :P

Oh, I'm gonna build Toe-To-Toe'rs too, just within Pathfinder that seems more challenging (what with all the good stuff not existing) :smalltongue: Strike Back only enables READYING action to hit a guy who hits me - seems pretty useless here.

And Lunge doesn't work when it counts; I need AoO to Stand Still him to force him to hopefully fail Ref saves and just trade hits with Defensive Sweep and Robilar's Gambit giving me the edge (Overpowering Attack to actually deal damage; maybe 60 per hit or so - gotta deal a bunch since even just the Tail Slap is gonna slap me silly soon enough).


Thanks for answering the build questions. Knowledge Devotion gives you an additional knowledge skill, which is what I was referring to. If it's a general build, I'd suggest getting Precise Shot much earlier too :)

Yeah, I wasn't too careful with the order of things; I just wanted for the end-result to be a respectable all-rounder.


Actually, I noticed that the tarrasque isn't immune to stunning - it's be pretty crazy to have a TWF fighter dual-wielding kukris, going up and slicing into him with Stunning Critical - he'd auto-succeed the fortitude save except on a one, but the tarrasque would be staggered almost every round, and exhausting critical and greater penetrating strike would help with damage and going toe-to-toe with him. Though the tarrasque has stunning critical too, so it would probably be a staggered vs. staggered fight with the kukri wielder using greater vital strike to desperately fight the regeneration...

Heh, the Fighter can wear Greater Fortifications-armor to negate the Criticals, but that might not be enough if he can't deal with the attacks; Big T's damage output is still quite respectable.

Woodsman
2009-10-30, 02:53 PM
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/12/1/633636917916939350-flyingtarrasque.jpg

That is easily the funniest thing I've seen all day.

Akal Saris
2009-10-30, 03:43 PM
Oh, here's an idea I didn't see from your archetypes (unless it's the panzerwagon?):

AC build

Human fighter 20 (Pathfinder)
+7 dex (armor training, mithril full plate)
+8 armor
+5 armor enhancement
+2 heavy shield
+5 armor enhancement
+5 ring of prot
+5 necklace of nat armor
+5 combat expertise
+5 defending (maybe put on shield spikes or something)
+1 dodge
+1 shield focus
+1 greater shield focus
= AC 62
+
armor of fortitication
cloak of displacement, minor

Tarrasque criticals on a 57, so the character is effectively immune to it except for normal dmg every 20 attacks or so (and some of those will fail from the miss chance). So it becomes a question of whether vital striking with a 1-handed weapon will deal enough damage to bring down the tarrasque, and whether he could survive if grappled and/or swallowed (would probably need the grappling feats and acid resistance).

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 03:59 PM
Oh, here's an idea I didn't see from your archetypes (unless it's the panzerwagon?):

AC build

Human fighter 20 (Pathfinder)
+7 dex (armor training, mithril full plate)
+8 armor
+5 armor enhancement
+2 heavy shield
+5 armor enhancement
+5 ring of prot
+5 necklace of nat armor
+5 combat expertise
+5 defending (maybe put on shield spikes or something)
+1 dodge
+1 shield focus
+1 greater shield focus
= AC 62
+
armor of fortitication
cloak of displacement, minor

Tarrasque criticals on a 57, so the character is effectively immune to it except for normal dmg every 20 attacks or so (and some of those will fail from the miss chance). So it becomes a question of whether vital striking with a 1-handed weapon will deal enough damage to bring down the tarrasque, and whether he could survive if grappled and/or swallowed (would probably need the grappling feats and acid resistance).

It falls under the Panzerwagen; it's gonna be a high defense build with hopefully sufficient offense to put a dent to the Tarr.

One I've been tossing around in my head not included yet is a Mock Monk; an Unarmed Fighter, possibly with Natural Weapons to toss around too (perhaps Warforged with Second Slam or a Kobold built off Dex? KUNG FU KOBOLD!).

Bayar
2009-10-30, 04:02 PM
I don't know about this, wolves/raptors and such evolved those abilities over time cause it was obviously helpful. The Tarrasque, however, wakes up after sleeping a couple hundred years, walks into a kingdom eating all the fleshy insects, then takes another nap. I doubt it has ever had to tactically fight anything.

I think people are making a mistake when thinking that just because someone has INT 3, he cannot make good tactical decisions.

Mr T has INT 3. True. He also has a WIS of 15. Now, would you say that the smartest man in the world would be able to predict the outsider's combat tactic just because he is smart ? Probably yes. Knowledge (The Planes) is based on INT. Will he be able to USE THAT KNOWLEDGE effectively if he has the wisdom of an animated doorknob (WIS 1) ? Yeah, he would probably forget he even knew those things and just hit it with magic missile.

Now, as a INT 3 WIS 15 creature, the tarrasque might not be the smartest thing out there, but it doesnt lack common sense.

Eldariel
2009-10-31, 04:50 AM
The second Tarrasque Slayer, Unarmed Brawler (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=163711), is ready.

arguskos
2009-10-31, 04:56 AM
We need an arena here! I want to see these fights. :smallamused: This thread is full of hilarity and win.

Cieyrin
2009-10-31, 10:03 AM
We need an arena here! I want to see these fights. :smallamused: This thread is full of hilarity and win.

The box seats for the arena are here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7221509#post7221509).

As for the Unarmed Brawler, I question the viability of stacking the Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike, as some would say the belt would override the feat, since it provides the larger bonus. Personally, I got no issue with it but I've seen the argument made and thought it should be brought up for viability.

Eldariel
2009-10-31, 10:12 AM
As for the Unarmed Brawler, I question the viability of stacking the Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike, as some would say the belt would override the feat, since it provides the larger bonus. Personally, I got no issue with it but I've seen the argument made and thought it should be brought up for viability.

Actually, I'm not stacking them. I'm simply taking Superior Unarmed Strike's bonus for non-Monks; at 16-20, that's 2d6. Monk's Belt is mostly there for the Monk AC and UA Strike and all that. I also reworked the character a bit; now it's a Kalashtar to use the Ectoplasmic Fist Shard for extra UA damage. Unfortunately, I cannot think of one good feat to add so he's got Weapon Focus now. Meh.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-31, 10:25 AM
Actually, I'm not stacking them. I'm simply taking Superior Unarmed Strike's bonus for non-Monks; at 16-20, that's 2d6. Monk's Belt is mostly there for the Monk AC and UA Strike and all that. I also reworked the character a bit; now it's a Kalashtar to use the Ectoplasmic Fist Shard for extra UA damage. Unfortunately, I cannot think of one good feat to add so he's got Weapon Focus now. Meh.

Weapon Focus: Monk or Unarmed Strike?

Pigkappa
2009-10-31, 10:45 AM
is this becoming World of Warcraft? I really can't imagine what kind of background may bring a warrior to have at the same time:

- Wisdom 8
- Intelligence 20
- Full ranks in a lot of Knowledge abilities.
- No ranks in any other kind of ability.
- True Believer towards the deity with one of the most useful relics for his combat style (and who isn't usually worshipped by warriors - not as much as other gods, at least).

Anybody else thinks this is kind of sad? :smalleek:

Dienekes
2009-10-31, 10:49 AM
is this becoming World of Warcraft? I really can't imagine what kind of background may bring a warrior to have at the same time:

- Wisdom 8
- Intelligence 20
- Full ranks in a lot of Knowledge abilities.
- No ranks in any other kind of ability.
- True Believer towards the deity with one of the most useful relics for his combat style (and who isn't usually worshipped by warriors - not as much as other gods, at least).

Anybody else thinks this is kind of sad? :smalleek:

This is theoretical stuff, boyo. Some people like to think up interesting mechanics and abusabilities. It doesn't mean they'd actually play a game as the monstrosities they create.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-31, 10:53 AM
is this becoming World of Warcraft? I really can't imagine what kind of background may bring a warrior to have at the same time:

- Wisdom 8
- Intelligence 20
- Full ranks in a lot of Knowledge abilities.
- No ranks in any other kind of ability.
- True Believer towards the deity with one of the most useful relics for his combat style (and who isn't usually worshipped by warriors - not as much as other gods, at least).

Anybody else thinks this is kind of sad? :smalleek:TO. This is just proving that one of the weakest classes can solo one something that's supposed to be the ultimate melee brute.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-31, 10:54 AM
is this becoming World of Warcraft? I really can't imagine what kind of background may bring a warrior to have at the same time:

- Wisdom 8
- Intelligence 20
- Full ranks in a lot of Knowledge abilities.
- No ranks in any other kind of ability.
- True Believer towards the deity with one of the most useful relics for his combat style (and who isn't usually worshipped by warriors - not as much as other gods, at least).

Anybody else thinks this is kind of sad? :smalleek:

Actually, many great warriors were more intelligent than wis.

Cieyrin
2009-10-31, 11:06 AM
Actually, I'm not stacking them. I'm simply taking Superior Unarmed Strike's bonus for non-Monks; at 16-20, that's 2d6. Monk's Belt is mostly there for the Monk AC and UA Strike and all that. I also reworked the character a bit; now it's a Kalashtar to use the Ectoplasmic Fist Shard for extra UA damage. Unfortunately, I cannot think of one good feat to add so he's got Weapon Focus now. Meh.

Fair enough, though I'd think the Monk's Belt would make you as a Monk 5, then Superior Unarmed Strike would push you up to Monk 9, making your unarmed damage 3d8 for a Huge Monk.

Fenix_of_Doom
2009-10-31, 11:44 AM
is this becoming World of Warcraft? I really can't imagine what kind of background may bring a warrior to have at the same time:

- Wisdom 8
- Intelligence 20
- Full ranks in a lot of Knowledge abilities.
- No ranks in any other kind of ability.
- True Believer towards the deity with one of the most useful relics for his combat style (and who isn't usually worshipped by warriors - not as much as other gods, at least).

Anybody else thinks this is kind of sad? :smalleek:

He has an +6 int item, so it's more like 8 wis and 14 int. But anyway what is wrong with having ne stat much higher than the other, isn't that the whole reason why they're, you know, separate stats?
I'm also wondering what the heck does anything of the above info have to do with WoW?

Pigkappa
2009-10-31, 12:01 PM
But anyway what is wrong with having ne stat much higher than the other, isn't that the whole reason why they're, you know, separate stats?
I'm also wondering what the heck does anything of the above info have to do with WoW?

There is nothing wrong in term of strict game mechanics. The fact is, if you have 20 intelligence and 8 wisdom, you are a kind of genius with nearly no common sense. If someone had to play that character, that should be someone who can undestand deeply how a trap works, but then walks inside the trap.

It reminded me of WoW because that's the perfect example of game in which you have to optimize a character this way, looking at what statistics are good for in a fight and nothing else.



Actually, many great warriors were more intelligent than wis.

Yes, of course, but a thing is 12 Int and 9 Wis, while 20 Int and 8 Wis would be really difficult to play in my opinion (and this is a fighter; working this way, we could have wizards with 30 Int 8 Wis, probably).


I'm not saying there's something wrong with playing D&D this way - I just want to believe that most of the players still like to roleplay their stats and choose them in a way that is justifiable by a sensed background.



This is theoretical stuff, boyo

I'd like if that was true, but I'm currently in a party with a sorcerer who has (IIRC) 8 Str, 8 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis and 18 Cha and who doesn't even listen to what happens to us until we reach a fight :smallfrown:
Anyway I guess this really is theoretical, because probably no master would accept easily a new character which has a relic without a detailed background about how that was achieved.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-31, 12:03 PM
is this becoming World of Warcraft? I really can't imagine what kind of background may bring a warrior to have at the same time:

- Wisdom 8
- Intelligence 20
- Full ranks in a lot of Knowledge abilities.
- No ranks in any other kind of ability.
- True Believer towards the deity with one of the most useful relics for his combat style (and who isn't usually worshipped by warriors - not as much as other gods, at least).

Anybody else thinks this is kind of sad? :smalleek:

What does this have to do with World of Warcraft? I've never seen any character off an RP-server who had anything like a background, and those people seem to pride themselves on not being powerful...

AstralFire
2009-10-31, 12:08 PM
From a purely roleplay standpoint, I don't think there's anything to bother about with mental stats until they get below 6, at which point it is nearly impossible to roleplay well. Your sorcerer not caring until he reaches a fight is a separate issue and one that has existed well before WoW.

Bayar
2009-10-31, 12:20 PM
I'd like if that was true, but I'm currently in a party with a sorcerer who has (IIRC) 8 Str, 8 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis and 18 Cha and who doesn't even listen to what happens to us until we reach a fight :smallfrown:

He's a rollplayer. Dont confuse optimisers with rollplayers. Optimisers might not dump every stat. They would probably put a 10 in WIS, bump INT a bit for extra skill points so they can use the familiar UMD trick, have decent DEX so they can actually hit things with targeted spells...

That guy is just a poser. Someone that thinks he is so ober but actually sucks in actual play.

Pigkappa
2009-10-31, 12:43 PM
What does this have to do with World of Warcraft? I've never seen any character off an RP-server who had anything like a background, and those people seem to pride themselves on not being powerful...

The problem is that even to imagine a decent background for this kind of characters is extremely difficult. It should at least be possible to create a sensed background.
After all, these characters are thought for D&D. If 90% of the DMs don't allow to play them, that's a problem.



That guy is just a poser. Someone that thinks he is so ober but actually sucks in actual play.

That's just because he isn't smart enough to make a strong character. It still works to show that the "role-playing" part is sometimes neglected (I don't think our DM will allow him to go on this way for a long time anyway - he'll probably tell him to change or stop playing).

AstralFire
2009-10-31, 12:47 PM
The problem is that even to imagine a decent background for this kind of characters is extremely difficult.

No, it's really not. We should take this discussion to another thread. I'm a bit busy to do any writing right now, but if no one wants to provide for you a good background, I can do it by ten hours from now.

sofawall
2009-10-31, 01:03 PM
The problem is that even to imagine a decent background for this kind of characters is extremely difficult. It should at least be possible to create a sensed background.
After all, these characters are thought for D&D. If 90% of the DMs don't allow to play them, that's a problem.

Most people in the middle east are Muslim. Some are Christian. OHMYGOSHDIFFERENTGODSFROMNORMAL. Some people are smart but absentminded. OHMYGOSHHIGHINTLOWWIS. Fitting in with the high Int (OHMYGOSHCONSISTENCY) he happens to know a lot. He is more of a Sun Tzu than a Genghis Khan. OHMYGOSHKNOWLEDGESKILLS. He lives in a forest and likes nature. OHMYGOSHEHLONNA.

Just because things happen to work out well in Eldariels favour doesn't mean it is wrong. If a story was made (and I'm sure it wouldn't take much) to fit this, would you accept it?

Cause, you know, I know real life people who would be similar to this.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-31, 01:05 PM
The problem is that even to imagine a decent background for this kind of characters is extremely difficult. It should at least be possible to create a sensed background.
After all, these characters are thought for D&D. If 90% of the DMs don't allow to play them, that's a problem.But how often will a fighter be asked to solo the Tarrasque? Almost any other class would be better at it. This is just proving it's possible.

As for justifying it, he's a smart fighter. When he started getting the epic lewtz, he bought an item to make him even smarter since he thinks his way through fights. He's studied enemies for the purpose of killing them easier. His family are long worshipers of the elf goddess Elhonna, and though he decided not to join her clergy he still worships her, and since discovering her quiver, he has worn it in her name.

Volkov
2009-10-31, 01:17 PM
I slap you with the Paragon Pseudonatural 3.5 tarrasque of doom.

Eldariel
2009-10-31, 01:41 PM
I slap you with the Paragon Pseudonatural 3.5 tarrasque of doom.

Don't make me break out Wizards... :smallannoyed:

Also, yeah, this is a thread about killing the Tarrasque, not whether a Fighter with 20 Int and 8 Wis is believable (though PHB actually describes what that means; absent-minded professor - as such, maxed Knowledges make perfect sense. Also, rangerish Fighter learning of creatures he hunts and their weaknesses and worshipping Ehlonna seems to make all kinds of sense).


EDIT: Solved the feat issues with the Unarmed Brawler. With slight rebuild, he didn't need Resolute nor Carmendine Monk anymore which freed up two feat slots. As he doesn't qualify for the Str- nor the Int-based feat chains and the Wis-based ones suck (Stunning Fist? Blergh. Combat Focus? Double Blerg. Zen Archery? Scuza moi?), I simply tossed Melee Weapon Mastery into the deal. Woulda liked Empty Hand Mastery or Karmic Strike or even just Shock Trooper/Leap Attack, but the Str/Int prerequisites mean the more SAD build cannot qualify.

Eldariel
2009-11-02, 09:43 AM
AP, you are needed! Also, the Charger (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=164101) is up for business.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-02, 10:29 AM
Actually, many great warriors were more intelligent than wis.

At least, until PHII :smallwink:

And I prefer int 13+ anyway :smalltongue:

Another_Poet
2009-11-02, 11:13 AM
AP, you are needed! Also, the Charger (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=164101) is up for business.

I've been posting in the OOC thread.

Eldariel
2009-11-02, 11:15 AM
Yeah, I noticed after I made that post. I've even posted in the OOC thread since :smallbiggrin: But yeah, 3 of 7 are done thus far. People, please check the builds for legality; I try to steer clear of errors, but I'm but one man.

Another_Poet
2009-11-04, 11:34 AM
In case anybody over here didn't know, the battle has now begun:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130509

Tarry: 0
Arry: 0
Number of Poopings: 0

It's on!