Heavy Handed [3.5, feat]

[deuxhero]

Any issues with this?

Heavy Handed [Fighter]
Prereq:Natural weapon or Improved Unarmed Strike.
Effect:Your unarmed strikes or single type of natural weapon are effected by strength and power attack as though they were a 2 handed weapon. Your strike still counts as a light weapon for all other (including weapon finesse and two weapon fighting) purposes.

[DracoDei]

Could get nasty on a Girallion, hydra, anything with tentacles, or anything else with a lot of attacks of the same type (GM caution advised).

Helps Monks (usually a very good thing).

[Solaris]

I'm picturing this as a character clenching his fists together and pummeling his opponent. You might want to specify that it's a special form of attack requiring two hands if that's the case.
I've always been a fan of martial arts feats, though. I like it.

[Ashtagon]

I have a feeling this could be abused if you allow the character to use something in whichever hand isn't doing the unarmed strike.

[Cieyrin]

A similar feat, Hammer Fist (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Hammer_Fist,Rac), grants the 1.5 Str to damage, though they only get 1 attack and makes use of both hands. Extending said feat for Heavy Handed would probably be in line.

I would also put a Strength requirement on Heavy Handed, as how heavy handed can you be without some muscle behind it, amirite?

[deuxhero]

I never really liked feat chains, basically an admission of "this feat isn't that special in a few levels" or "This feat isn't that great except for requirements"

Now a STR requirement, what about 13?

[Triaxx]

15, You'll have to be stronger to do the kind of damage with your fists than you would with weapons. Perhaps a both hands must be free requirement, otherwise it's counted as a one handed attack.

[deuxhero]

An Unarmed Strike is your whole body (ignore the name of the feat).

Prehaps a BAB requirement like Improved Natural Attack?

[Stycotl]

i wouldn't make it a feat chain, especially since hammer fist sucks. i would give it a strength and BAB requirement though. +6 bab sounds fair, and 20 strength would be cinematically appropriate.

other than that, this should be fine.

[deuxhero]

20 strength? That's quite far in, even for SAD. I'd prefer earlier.

[Stycotl]

20 is just an idea, and it is pretty easy to come by, especially if the characters started out with an 18 to begin with, which most of them (except the MAD-monks) will.

but 18 is doable, and even 16 or so could work well.

[Ziegander]

BAB +6 is absurd. The benefit of this feat literally amounts to "I hit that guy as hard as I can with my fist," and you're saying it should require an amount of training and dedication that only gaining 6 class levels can give you? Please.

The requirements should be nothing more than Str 15 and Improved Unarmed Strike.

[Mulletmanalive]

Mechanically, an Str 15 requirement is needed otherwise it's core benefit cannot come into play [Power Attack is NOT a prerequisite so it's benefit is secondary]

I'd be wary of the idea that unarmed attacks are better than weapon attacks though.

I, like a lot of people, have trained in some martial arts. I've been hit by weapons. Roundhouse kicks just don't measure up...

[deuxhero]

I'd be wary of the idea that unarmed attacks are better than weapon attacks though.

I, like a lot of people, have trained in some martial arts. I've been hit by weapons. Roundhouse kicks just don't measure up...

Have you ever been hit with Power Word: Pain? No? Well say unarmed attacks don't hurt as much as weapons to someone in a world where you can be. (I never liked limiting melee to reality, but putting them right next to people who break the laws of phyics before breakfast)

Isn't 16 the max (pre racial adjustment) for point-buy? I thought it was (likely wrong).

[Stycotl]

BAB +6 is absurd.

i don't think so.


The benefit of this feat literally amounts to "I hit that guy as hard as I can with my fist,"

wrong. as hard as you can would be the equivalent of a one-handed hit. this is the equivalent of a two-handed hit, which is somewhere in the ballpark of the difference between a one-handed swing with a baseball bat and a two-handed swing.

see a difference?


and you're saying it should require an amount of training and dedication that only gaining 6 class levels can give you? Please.

please what? you seem to be getting upset over this.

yes, i think that it makes sense that a martial arts master should have to train for years and years before being able to strike something with enough force to smash an engine block.

for some reason i find it hard to believe that you wouldn't.

remember karate kid III or XIV or whichever one it was where mr miyagi saved the life of his rival by breaking the telephone pole/tree/whatever it was with his bare hands? that is kind of what i am picturing here, though even that would take more than a two-handed hit in real life.

luckily, this is a game where as mentioned in a later post, wizards are rewriting reality by level 13...


The requirements should be nothing more than Str 15 and Improved Unarmed Strike.

that is more along the lines of the requirements for hammer fist. if you want to throw out the hammer fist feat (which isn't a bad idea, since it is crap), then this makes sense. but if you are expecting these two feats to coexist together in the same setting, this one needs higher prereqs. period. end of story.

i can see the reasoning for a 15 strength, mechanically, but i don't feel that it is high enough. however, that is just my opinion, and when applied primarily to the already MAD-happy monk, it makes sense to lower it a bit.

[Krazddndfreek]

I personally think 6 bab is fine, for the sake of balance. Definitely should have a str prereq, probably 15. And maybe have some sort of drawback to using the heavy handed, I'm thinking you can't us it during a flurry of blows, or maybe just one attack per flurry can be "heavy handed".

Also, with any ability score generating method it is possible for an 18.

[Godskook]

I'd be wary of the idea that unarmed attacks are better than weapon attacks though.

Consider this. Dagorhir (http://www.dagorhir.com/) has punch weapons banned, and what little I've heard about them in SCA is that they're incredibly scary. This from people that voluntarily let you beat them with padded 6' fiberglass poles. In D&D, 'real people' only go up to L5, meaning only 5 feats, total, on a fighter. This means that someone who spends 40% of his life's worth of feats can power attack with his fists as well as someone spending 20% of his life's worth of feats can with just power attack. You're still suffering from a poor base damage, unless you go monk, and if you do go monk, you lose BAB. The realism seems fine.

[deuxhero]

I have no issues with preventing use in a flurry

How about this version?

Strong Style [Fighter]
Prerequisites:Improved Unarmed Strike, BAB +6.
Effect:You may choose to treat any (including attacks of opportunity) unarmed strikes as though they were a 2 handed weapon (Effecting strength bonus and power attack accordingly) that is treated as a light weapon. A "Strong Style" attack may not be used with Flurry of Blows and a "Strong Style" attack used as the off "hand" "weapon" in two weapon fighting is not treated as a light weapon (Strong style may still be used for the primary "hand" "weapon").

Normal:An unarmed strike is always a light weapon.

Special: A monk may choose Strong Style as his 6th level bonus feat.



Cleaned up the wording, added requirements added a few exceptions to "2 handed and light", changed the name for something a bit more... appendage neutral. Allowed use as a monk bonus feat (doubt anyone would use this and not houserule full BAB, but hey.)

[Mulletmanalive]

wrong. as hard as you can would be the equivalent of a one-handed hit. this is the equivalent of a two-handed hit, which is somewhere in the ballpark of the difference between a one-handed swing with a baseball bat and a two-handed swing.

see a difference?


Having been hit with both, the difference is mostly inertia. A two handed swing will Knock you back further but if you've braced, they hurt pretty much the same: Two handed is a quicker attack but that's not on the table.

[for reference, they were both overhand swings with a wooden bat, boy did they hurt...]

I just got told off for real world logic, might as well correct yours.

EDIT:Oh, forgot to mention, two handed is much worse when you're on the ground...blow earths itself through you.

[Ziegander]

@Stycotl: Yes, I do get upset when people try to argue that hitting something hard requires any sort of training or somehow breaks game balance.

Are you familiar with "the haymaker?" You see, when you're using a lever-type weapon, such as a baseball bat, or a sword, yes, two hands is almost universally better than one. Such is the nature of a lever. But when you're using your fists, trying to hit with both at the same time is almost universally ineffective (unless you are looming above with a hammer blow ready). When you hit someone as hard as you can with a Baseball Bat you swing with both arms, obviously. When you hit someone as hard as you can with your fists you only punch with one arm so you can concentrate your force and momentum onto a single point.

Your whole years of training argument doesn't hold any water. A 1st level PC has been training for years. Look at the age rules. As a 1st level Monk, you're not just some guy that decided to start learning how to fight with your hands. You've already trained for who knows how long.

As far as the, "whoa now, better use BAB +6 to balance it out, that's pretty powerful" bit: Honestly... are you kidding? Anyone can pick up a two-handed melee weapon and get the exact same benefit for free - at level 1. You're suggesting, not only that it should cost a feat for an unarmed warrior to get the same thing, already a pretty fair trade in my book, but that a Fighter should have to wait until 6th level, and a Monk should have to wait until 9th?!

What?!

[Cieyrin]

Actually, deuxhero already addressed the monk issue by making it viable as a monk bonus feat.

As for the new version, it should still probably have a Strength requirement on it. At least 13, probably 15.

[Eldan]

Alternatively, make it into an ACF for monks, instead of flurry of blows.

Yes, I know. It's a joke, but still sounds about fair.

[Ashtagon]

Alternatively, make it into an ACF for monks, instead of flurry of blows.

Yes, I know. It's a joke, but still sounds about fair.

Ironically, that's actually an improvement.

FoB has to be one of the worst class features ever. The only opponents against which it gives an increase on the average number of hits per round are those that are far below your encounter level.

[deuxhero]

ACF feature could also work.

[Eldan]

Ironically, that's actually an improvement.

FoB has to be one of the worst class features ever. The only opponents against which it gives an increase on the average number of hits per round are those that are far below your encounter level.

That's what I meant with joke, actually. Joke as in "no one wouldn't take it".

[Stycotl]

Having been hit with both, the difference is mostly inertia.

inertia is not the physical property that you are looking for, methinks.


A two handed swing will Knock you back further but if you've braced, they hurt pretty much the same: Two handed is a quicker attack but that's not on the table.

[for reference, they were both overhand swings with a wooden bat, boy did they hurt...]

I just got told off for real world logic, might as well correct yours.

EDIT:Oh, forgot to mention, two handed is much worse when you're on the ground...blow earths itself through you.

the reason that a two-handed hit is worse is because it has a lot more power in it. i doubt that you were rocked by a full-on, two-handed crack with a baseball bat, but that is a subject for another thread.

either way, you can generate awesome power swinging a bat with two hands. not so much one-handed.


@Stycotl: Yes, I do get upset when people try to argue that hitting something hard requires any sort of training or somehow breaks game balance.

you let forum debates upset you? who says it breaks game balance? i have never tried to imply that this is game-breaking. in fact, i seem to recall saying that if you can the hammer fist feat, then this is fine.

as far as needing training, you prove my point a moment later...


Are you familiar with "the haymaker?" You see, when you're using a lever-type weapon, such as a baseball bat, or a sword, yes, two hands is almost universally better than one. Such is the nature of a lever. But when you're using your fists, trying to hit with both at the same time is almost universally ineffective (unless you are looming above with a hammer blow ready).

here. there is no effective way to hit someone two-handed in real life with the goal to gain any more power than a one-handed hit would produce. the hammer fist feat is tritely nice, a bone thrown at the monk, but nothing more. yes, this is based in real-world physics, but whatever.

i've had martial arts too, and i have never seen it taught or utilized, and i would have stomped on anyone curious enough to try.


When you hit someone as hard as you can with a Baseball Bat you swing with both arms, obviously. When you hit someone as hard as you can with your fists you only punch with one arm so you can concentrate your force and momentum onto a single point.

again. this is where the training comes in. no matter how strong you are, you can't equal the difference in force with one- and two-handed punches that are present between one- and two-handed strikes with a bat.

this goes again to the idea that punching two-handed does not work.

let's say that i can swing a bat one-handed with a force of 100 lbs (humor me). two-handed, let's say that i can hit with 400 lbs of force. if these were actual numbers, i'd bet that the relative power of my punches would be somewhere in the order of 50 lbs one-handed, and 40 lbs two-handed.

it does not correlate.

therefore, we are not talking about holding onto a weapon with two hands and making it harder; we are talking about using the same one-handed weapon, and making it hit with the comparative force of two hands (if the weapon could be wielded that way).

therefore, we are talking about more than just strength, otherwise you'd be doing it without a feat to begin with.


Your whole years of training argument doesn't hold any water. A 1st level PC has been training for years. Look at the age rules. As a 1st level Monk, you're not just some guy that decided to start learning how to fight with your hands. You've already trained for who knows how long.

this has nothing to do with the debate. following this logic, we shouldn't need the IUS feat either; it should be inherent, along with stunning fist, iron fists, pain touch, and the flaming ki strike. we shouldn't need feats for any of these now.


As far as the, "whoa now, better use BAB +6 to balance it out, that's pretty powerful" bit:

+6 bab was the first one to come to mind. if you think +3, +2, or even +1 is fairer, so be it.


Honestly... are you kidding? Anyone can pick up a two-handed melee weapon and get the exact same benefit for free - at level 1.

i've already described the mechanical differences to you between wielding a bat with two hands, and trying to hit someone one-handed, with the force of a theoritical two-handed hit. take it or leave it.


You're suggesting, not only that it should cost a feat for an unarmed warrior to get the same thing, already a pretty fair trade in my book, but that a Fighter should have to wait until 6th level, and a Monk should have to wait until 9th?!

What?!

again, 6 bab was just a number. i don't care what number is thrown into the mix, but it needs to be higher than the +0 that the monk starts out with.

this is especially true if you are leaving hammer fist in the game. i've already mentioned this, and no one has agreed or disagreed. with no extra prereqs, this feat is way better than hammer fist (as it should be), but you need to change something. you either need to remove hammer fist from your game, or you need to put in some extra prerequisites.

this is my primary argument. feel free to keep ignoring it.

to recap:

1-there is no two-handed variant to punching and kicking (so far we have mentioned fists, but there is even less of a correlation when talking about kicks).

2-in order to therefore kick or punch with as much comparative force, with one limb, something other than strength needs to be accounted for. call it training, ki, intuition, whatever. make it a bab requirement, a wisdom requirement, whatever.

3-if you plan on keeping hammer fist in the game (why would you?), you need to add to the prereqs here.

that is all that i am saying.

[Mulletmanalive]

I can't recall what Blood and Fists called it but i've remembered there was a similar feat to this there. I think it might have been something like Axe Kick or something.

Basically what's described in this feat with the penalty that if you missed it flatfooted you and if you used it on a prone target, it did x3 strength and power attack instead.

Maybe describing it in the text as some kind of kick might make this seem more reasonable in it's power...

It isn't broken, it would just allow the fighter psuedo-monk a shot at equalling a regular monk [i know Supreme Unarmed Strike already allows that but it wasn't possible before, believe me, i tried].

[Mulletmanalive]

inertia is not the physical property that you are looking for, methinks.

the reason that a two-handed hit is worse is because it has a lot more power in it. i doubt that you were rocked by a full-on, two-handed crack with a baseball bat, but that is a subject for another thread.

either way, you can generate awesome power swinging a bat with two hands. not so much one-handed.


The inertia was kind of correct, i'm just thinking of things from a different direction. The energy in the system is comparable given the same mass of wood in both counts and comparable speeds. Difference is that a one handed swing deflects much easier than a two handed one and that the things has more leverage, hence the change in velocity is greater.

I'm not used to keeping the terms straight; haven't needed to in a while, been years since i took physics.

The reason for having taken the blows was my own ineptitude. I took full force blows from a Joubo because i'm inept at defending with a boken and i have a very school of hard knocks teacher. Managed to deflect the one handed swing with the meat of my forearm but broke a finger against the two handed one.

[Temotei]

'real people' only go up to L5, meaning only 5 feats, total, on a fighter.

Actually, that's 6 feats. You may have forgotten the human feat.


Human +1
1st level +1
3rd level +1
Fighter 1st +1
Fighter 2nd +1
Fighter 4th +1


Anyways, that's all I've got.