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View Full Version : ACFs that make you Weaker



oxinabox
2009-10-30, 07:18 AM
So there are some Alternate class features that just make you stonger with no downside.
Kalsha Soulknife, and raptorian fighter* come to mind

*give up heavy armour profiecny for the ability to fly in medium load - you can't fly in med/heavy armour (unless BULK stong) so without this you'ld be wearing light...

Then there are some that just make you weaker.

For example the one from Cityscape web enhancment (IIRC)
that lets you trade the Druids animal compainion - one of the most powerful class features out - (Fighter as class feature, ftw)
For a familar as a wizard of you druid lvl.
familars - proably the most ignored class feature of all time.

what other weakening ACF's are there?

Fan
2009-10-30, 07:24 AM
shapeshift Variant Druid.

Battle Sorc.

Savage Bard.

HCL
2009-10-30, 07:39 AM
Savage bard is fine, it gives you a good fort save.

Sorcerer's divine companion in Complete Champion is way less useful than a familiar

Bayar
2009-10-30, 07:41 AM
Spell-less ranger.

Fan
2009-10-30, 07:42 AM
Spell-less ranger.

Rangers use spells?:smalltongue:

Longcat
2009-10-30, 07:46 AM
Shapeshift Druid, it's one of the biggest nerfs there is.
Any Immediate Magic other than Abrupt Jaunt.
Most of the Wizard ACFs in UA, where you trade in Bonus spells from Specialisation, Familiar or your bonus feats. Notable exceptions are Rapid Summoning (excellent for Malconvoker) and Chains of Disbelief (good for Shadowcraft Mage).



Rangers use spells?:smalltongue:

Arrow Mind, Bladestorm, Arrow Storm, to name a few.

Kulture
2009-10-30, 07:50 AM
the rogue variant (brute?)

Lose sneak attack, gain bonus feats as a fighter....

wow. Thanks for that.


I'll throw in charisma being the spell-thief casting stat, since it's just one of a long line of charisma casters that makes shoddy sense. (I want assassin level synergy, damn it!)

Blackfang108
2009-10-30, 08:39 AM
the rogue variant (brute?)

Lose sneak attack, gain bonus feats as a fighter....

wow. Thanks for that.

Don't forget, you also don't qualify for the Weapon Specialization chain anymore, so it's even worse than for a Fighter.

Natael
2009-10-30, 09:03 AM
shapeshift Variant Druid.


That's why I force the druids in my game to take the SS variant, helps with balance a bit.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-30, 09:06 AM
Spell-less ranger.

The Complete Warrior version, yes. The Complete Champion version is good for a TWFing Swift Hunter build, if slightly weaker than actual spellcasting.



Spell-less Pally however...

Raewyn
2009-10-30, 10:02 AM
Any Immediate Magic other than Abrupt Jaunt.

Hrm... is there an ACF that's better for a necromancer? (I thought the Immediate Magic was pretty weaksauce, but I thought it was still better than 'an animal that your enemies can kill to drain your XP')

Longcat
2009-10-30, 10:08 AM
Hrm... is there an ACF that's better for a necromancer? (I thought the Immediate Magic was pretty weaksauce, but I thought it was still better than 'an animal that your enemies can kill to drain your XP')

In UA, you can get an undead minion that scales with your necromancer levels. If it dies, it only costs 100gp to replace, and you lose no xp.

Although I'd rather keep my familiar, since you can get nice stuff like Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-30, 04:26 PM
The Complete Warrior version, yes. The Complete Champion version is good for a TWFing Swift Hunter build, if slightly weaker than actual spellcasting.
Champion of the Wild (Complete Champion) also works well with the archery Ranger/Scout, as it delivers all the feat prerequisites for Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot). Take a normal move and you're good for 4 bowshots with Improved Skirmish (normal +2d6) damage on every shot.

John Campbell
2009-10-30, 06:59 PM
Spell-less ranger.

Eh. My current character makes good use of Champion of the Wild. I'm doing a mounted archer, and I had to jump through so many hoops to get a viable animal companion to ride that my spellcasting would've been late and weak anyway. Yeah, sure, arrow storm is a nice spell... but when you get one casting per day at the level that the real casters are getting wish and miracle, it's kind of lacking something. I'd rather have the mess of feats.

Amphetryon
2009-10-30, 07:16 PM
Eh. My current character makes good use of Champion of the Wild. I'm doing a mounted archer, and I had to jump through so many hoops to get a viable animal companion to ride that my spellcasting would've been late and weak anyway. Yeah, sure, arrow storm is a nice spell... but when you get one casting per day at the level that the real casters are getting wish and miracle, it's kind of lacking something. I'd rather have the mess of feats.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Bayar refers to the CW version, which is not nearly so nice as the CChamp, Champion of the Wild, version of a spell-less ranger.

Tavar
2009-10-30, 07:18 PM
Spell less paladin is also useful if you're going to be PrC'ing out of Paladin, considering that alot of decent PrC for them lack spell casting advancement, and do require feat heavy builds.

The UA druid that gives up Wild Shape for monk abilities is pretty sucktastic.

The domain wizard seems pretty weak.

Malacode
2009-10-30, 07:23 PM
The Wizard ACF that trades the bonus feat list with that of a fighter. What is my wizard going to do with Combat Expertise? Whirlwind Attack? Two-Weapon Fighting? I'd rather take Spell Mastery, thank-you very much. Actual Metamagic feats are even better.

Unless you're building a Gish, it's not worth it. Even then, you have to think carefully.

Zaydos
2009-10-30, 07:24 PM
Spell less paladin is also useful if you're going to be PrC'ing out of Paladin, considering that alot of decent PrC for them lack spell casting advancement, and do require feat heavy builds.

The UA druid that gives up Wild Shape for monk abilities is pretty sucktastic.

The domain wizard seems pretty weak.

What's weak about the domain wizard? You give up the ability to specialize for an extra spell of every level per day and in your spellbook. It might be a predetermined spell but it's still better than nothing. It allows you to retain the versatility you lose by going specialist or focused specialist while giving you an extra spell of every level.

Tavar
2009-10-30, 07:33 PM
Cause this is DnD. Specialization >>> Versatility. It's easy to not loose anything of value when specializing. Hell, even Focused Specialization is often a good deal.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-30, 07:35 PM
the rogue variant (brute?)

Lose sneak attack, gain bonus feats as a fighter....

wow. Thanks for that.Still better in-play than a fighter is.

And awesome in gestalt.

Also quite good for multiclassing.

Dixieboy
2009-10-30, 07:37 PM
Setting (As in "Desert", "Frozen wasteland", "Ocean") specific ACFs count?

'cus there's those things that lets you breathe underwater for X rounds, swim faster, or resist mirages/desert heat, which seems mighty weaksauce unless you are in quite specific situations alot.

Since they probably don't:
Spell sense seems a bit useless, and the Half Elf Fighter doesn't seem to be worth it.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-30, 07:37 PM
Cause this is DnD. Specialization >>> Versatility. It's easy to not loose anything of value when specializing. Hell, even Focused Specialization is often a good deal.

What about Druids? They are powerful because they have versatility.

Boci
2009-10-30, 07:38 PM
The Wizard ACF that trades the bonus feat list with that of a fighter. What is my wizard going to do with Combat Expertise? Whirlwind Attack? Two-Weapon Fighting? I'd rather take Spell Mastery, thank-you very much. Actual Metamagic feats are even better.

Unless you're building a Gish, it's not worth it. Even then, you have to think carefully.

Good for swapping scribe scroll for improved initiative if you going to go Master Specialist as soon as possibly and thus do not need wizard levels beyond 3rd.

Grumman
2009-10-30, 07:57 PM
Unless you're building a Gish, it's not worth it. Even then, you have to think carefully.
Assuming you're PrCing out at 5th level, it lets you trade Scribe Scroll and one wizard feat for two fighter feats. Considering how rarely I use consumables, I'd definitely get more use out of the fighter feats.

Inhuman Bot
2009-10-30, 08:31 PM
I'd say... Drow of the Underdark's Drow Bard. Lose bardic knowledge, gain poison use.

Or the Favored Soul ACF the replaces energy resistance with tremorsense. Out to 5 feet. With like.. a 3/day use.

Boci
2009-10-30, 08:37 PM
I'd say... Drow of the Underdark's Drow Bard. Lose bardic knowledge, gain poison use.

Same with the rogue. Trapfinding for poison use. And they are in the same frigging book that has the feat "better poison use"

Starbuck_II
2009-10-30, 08:39 PM
Same with the rogue. Trapfinding for poison use. And they are in the same frigging book that has the feat "better poison use"

You can get Trapfinding back with a feat though. Bardic Knowledge is harder to obtain.

Boci
2009-10-30, 08:49 PM
You can get Trapfinding back with a feat though. Bardic Knowledge is harder to obtain.

True. But never-the-less, posion use is worth less than a feat with that sourcebook.

Starscream
2009-10-30, 08:51 PM
Bards have Healing Hymn which costs them Fascinate. This means they lose Suggestion and Mass Suggestion as well, which is a terrible sacrifice.

They also have Inspire Turning which is far too situational. Turning undead isn't something you typically do all the time, and no way the cleric should need the bard's help.

Akal Saris
2009-10-30, 08:54 PM
Eh, I've used that sub before - if you only have 1 level of bard then the poison use can be better - though there are better things to swap bardic knowledge for anyhow.

Spontaneous Summoning for the conjurer is pretty awful (swap out a spell to spontaneously cast a SM spell 1 level lower, lose bonus spells).

Half-Elf Fighter and Half-Orc Paladin (Races of Destiny) are both quite disappointing, especially considering that Half-Elf Bard and Half-Orc Druid are both useful and cool.

sofawall
2009-10-30, 09:00 PM
The Wizard ACF that trades the bonus feat list with that of a fighter. What is my wizard going to do with Combat Expertise? Whirlwind Attack? Two-Weapon Fighting? I'd rather take Spell Mastery, thank-you very much. Actual Metamagic feats are even better.

Unless you're building a Gish, it's not worth it. Even then, you have to think carefully.

Almost all of my wizards take that ACF, and most wizards made by others seem to. As someone said above me, Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative and PrC out early make it a no-brainer.

The Glyphstone
2009-10-30, 09:05 PM
Rangers use spells?:smalltongue:

They use wands.:smallcool:

Zeta Kai
2009-10-30, 10:03 PM
What about Druids? They are powerful because they have versatility.

No, they are powerful because their individual class features are often better than entire classes. They can command an animal companion to fight for them at-will, which can contribute to an encounter about as well as a melee combatant, but without sacrificing XP. They can turn into a War Troll, while still casting spells (unless they are being moronic & not taking Natural Spell ASAP). And they are full casters to boot. In short, the only thing that holds them back from pwning Wizards is that the Wizard spell list is generally much better. Versatility doesn't have much to do with their power level; too many class features is their vice.

Akal Saris
2009-10-30, 10:14 PM
Actually, I think druids are quite versatile outside of core, since they know all their spells and have a very well-supported spell list. Blasting, battlefield control, utility, healing, divinations, summoning - the list goes on.

And as a minor nitpick, they can't turn into a war troll unless they PrC into MoMF (a bad idea), or until shapechange (when there are better forms). Not that this makes wildshape any less broken.

As others mentioned, I also take the wizard ACF for improved initiative (and if going to 5th, either danger sense or swap that level for spontaneous divination or a domain power), and I've also used it very effectively in gish and roguesque (rogue/diviner/unseen seer) builds. It's an excellent ACF in my opinion.

oxinabox
2009-10-31, 01:56 AM
Unless you're building a Gish, it's not worth it. Even then, you have to think carefully.

If you have enough lvls of wizard to get the metamagic bonus feat, you might just be building you gish wrong.
You've lost ... at least 2 points of BaB there.
then again your up on spell casting compaired to one who multiplcasses for a dip in somehting full bab.
I guess you have the fighter feat, so that make up to some extent ease of quilifies for PrCs,
though not as completely as if you had a lvl in someting profienct with martal weapons and medium armour, like say.... a warblade...

Getting rid of scribe scroll sounds like a great idea though.



Setting (As in "Desert", "Frozen wasteland", "Ocean") specific ACFs count?
Yes, they do count.
my example was from cityscape.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-31, 09:45 AM
No, they are powerful because their individual class features are often better than entire classes. They can command an animal companion to fight for them at-will, which can contribute to an encounter about as well as a melee combatant, but without sacrificing XP. They can turn into a War Troll, while still casting spells (unless they are being moronic & not taking Natural Spell ASAP). And they are full casters to boot. In short, the only thing that holds them back from pwning Wizards is that the Wizard spell list is generally much better. Versatility doesn't have much to do with their power level; too many class features is their vice.

They turn undead too. Yes, Druids have a 2nd level spell that grants them turns undead once each time cast.