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weenie
2009-10-30, 01:26 PM
Has anyone ever tried playing a Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)?

I found the PrC a few weeks ago and immediately fell in love. It's flavorful, it's strong, it's gishy! All that I always wanted from a PrC. But unfortunately I never played in a game that got to high enough levels to give it a try.. So I was wondering, has anyone ever played it? Is it really as fun as it seems?

Eldariel
2009-10-30, 01:35 PM
Has anyone ever tried playing a Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)?

I found the PrC a few weeks ago and immediately fell in love. It's flavorful, it's strong, it's gishy! All that I always wanted from a PrC. But unfortunately I never played in a game that got to high enough levels to give it a try.. So I was wondering, has anyone ever played it? Is it really as fun as it seems?

Yeah. It's awesome. Just...awesome. I love my Swiftblade In AMF! Extraordinary Haste is the most awesome ability ever (coupled with all the goodies they derive off it) and the extra action and miss chances and all that just from Haste...just YUMM.

Oh, and it loses 4 CLs + has entry requirements so it's actually balanced! And enterable without Fighter-levels if you feel so inclined! Yeah, it's the most awesomest (yes, it's good enough to express it ungrammatically and redundantly) class ever.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-30, 01:48 PM
It's definitely one of the better ways to go about being a gish. I played a one shot as one, and the miss chances from haste were amazing. Add Displacement and (Greater) Mirror Image, and, as long as they lack true seeing, you're basically safe. Although, even haste stops true seeing here.

Rough build is something to the effect of Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9-10/Abjurant Champion 4-5, depending on taste. I prefer the eventual 9th level spells to getting a time-stop effect a level early, but that's just me.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-30, 03:30 PM
I really, really, really want to try one. They're awesome.

Harperfan7
2009-10-30, 04:05 PM
My favorite character build ever is elf Scout 6/Transmuter 5/Swiftblade 9.

Navigator
2009-10-30, 07:25 PM
Pfft. Hasted in an anti-magic field with 50% miss chance and freedom of movement? Who'd want to play a character with lame abilities like that? That and losing four caster levels is totally not worth it.

AtopTheMountain
2009-10-30, 07:36 PM
I tried one once. It was around level 17-19... and it was horrible. Yes, I got huge amounts of attacks (and other options) but i wasn't able to hit anything. You lose caster levels, and you lose attack bonuses. Its kind of like the Mystic Theurge... lots of options, but ends up not keeping up with the rest of the party.

Ernir
2009-10-30, 08:05 PM
I tried one once. It was around level 17-19... and it was horrible. Yes, I got huge amounts of attacks (and other options) but i wasn't able to hit anything. You lose caster levels, and you lose attack bonuses. Its kind of like the Mystic Theurge... lots of options, but ends up not keeping up with the rest of the party.
Swiftblade is full BAB. What attack bonuses are you losing, exactly? :smallconfused:

But wow, if Swiftblade was not a strong enough PrC for that game, I'd love to see what the others were packing. :smallsmile:

Kylarra
2009-10-30, 08:07 PM
Swiftblade also gets a miscellaneous +2 to hit putting it at slightly higher than full BAB.

Tavar
2009-10-30, 08:25 PM
Swiftblade is full BAB. What attack bonuses are you losing, exactly? :smallconfused:

But wow, if Swiftblade was not a strong enough PrC for that game, I'd love to see what the others were packing. :smallsmile:

Well, you lose at 3 BaB if you go slow entry: Wizard 6/Swift Blade X. Still, the bonuses you should be getting would counter that. And there are also ways to offset the caster level loss. In fact, in guide for swiftblades, it talks about leaving it after a couple levels(Level 5 if you're a Primary caster, Level 9 if not). After that, Abjurant Champion is a good filler, giving both Full BaB and caster levels.

AtopTheMountain
2009-10-30, 08:59 PM
But wow, if Swiftblade was not a strong enough PrC for that game, I'd love to see what the others were packing. :smallsmile:

I believe we had a rogue, a sorceror, mabye a barbarian... I don't remember whether it was 17 or 19.
We were fighting Inevitables with very high ACs, and I was using two weapons... I think my exact class breakup was Wizard 8 / Swiftblade 10

sofawall
2009-10-30, 09:01 PM
I believe we had a rogue, a sorceror, mabye a barbarian... I don't remember whether it was 17 or 19.
We were fighting Inevitables with very high ACs, and I was using two weapons... I think my exact class breakup was Wizard 8 / Swiftblade 10

Breakdown, not breakup.

Also, Kobold Loredrake shenanigans make Swiftblade an easy choice for a sorcerer.

EDIT: So, you lose 2 compared to a fighter. The part about Inevitables and TWF is somewhat irrelevant, as if you had trouble hitting, the rogue should have had just as much, and TWF was your choice to eat another penalty. If you couldn't hit anything, you could have asked your DM if you could retrain into weapon focus and use a weapon two-handed or something.

AtopTheMountain
2009-10-30, 09:08 PM
It was a 1-shot adventure. I had just seen the PrC on the website and was really excited about it.

Mabye I just rolled poorly; it was about a year ago, my memory's a little fuzzy.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-30, 09:34 PM
Swiftblade is one of three options I would consider for a gish. The other two are Eldritch Knight/Phantom or Jade Phoenix Mage. Everyone needs Abjurant Champion: it's a great, albeit short prestige class.

Of these 3.5 set-ups, Eldritch Knight/Phantom is filler. Jade Phoenix Mage eats similar caster level loses for maneuvers, and Swiftblade has its own schtick around using haste, which is a good buff spell to begin with.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-31, 02:07 AM
As a way to avoid BAB loss and not be hurt as bad by the lost caster levels, (any full BAB) 6/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Swiftblade 10 would work rather well. If your full BAB got at least 1st level Arcane spells (Duskblade and Hexblade, at least), you could take 4 levels of Abjurant Champion (one before Suel Arcanamach). Might be worth it. I'd consider Duskblade 5/Abj Ch 1/Suel 1/Abj Ch +3/Swiftblade 10, anyway.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-31, 02:52 AM
The capstone ability kinda sucks, though, since unless you have some kind of full caster without any other level loss, it's pretty much worthless. You need at least 6th level spells, and the four lost caster levels really hurt.

How about Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/Swiftblade8? The only thing you miss is the extra standard action and the capstone. Granted, the extra action is pretty nice, I suppose you can drop the spellsword level if you want to, but wearing mithral armor without needing Twilight is pretty fun.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-31, 03:28 AM
I hadn't considered the requirements of the capstone; here I was thinking it was awesome. Hmm...

Could the Swiftblade get two of its lost caster levels back without unbalancing things? Four levels is really steep.

Maybe a special version where you can only cast metamagic'd versions of Haste with the higher slots, or something?

weenie
2009-10-31, 05:00 AM
The capstone ability kinda sucks, though, since unless you have some kind of full caster without any other level loss, it's pretty much worthless. You need at least 6th level spells, and the four lost caster levels really hurt.

How about Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/Swiftblade8? The only thing you miss is the extra standard action and the capstone. Granted, the extra action is pretty nice, I suppose you can drop the spellsword level if you want to, but wearing mithral armor without needing Twilight is pretty fun.(emphasis added)

The ONLY thing? That is the friggin' selling point of the PrC! You get to cast another spell every round for free!!! Without this ability you could easily make it a 8/10 casting progression class.

Oh, and did anyone ever try it as a mage killer? Super movement and AMF should make it pretty good at it, right?


I hadn't considered the requirements of the capstone; here I was thinking it was awesome. Hmm...

Could the Swiftblade get two of its lost caster levels back without unbalancing things? Four levels is really steep.

Maybe a special version where you can only cast metamagic'd versions of Haste with the higher slots, or something?

What good would the new caster levels be then? I think the way it is now is just fine. It's a pretty solid gish, and if you drop the last level you still get 9th level spells out of it. Oh god, I so want to play one now! :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-10-31, 07:13 AM
The capstone frankly has its uses. It's still Haste so it allows you to effectively cast an Ex Time Stop; I needn't explain why that can be extremely useful.

Ernir
2009-10-31, 11:30 AM
How about Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/Swiftblade8? The only thing you miss is the extra standard action and the capstone. Granted, the extra action is pretty nice, I suppose you can drop the spellsword level if you want to, but wearing mithral armor without needing Twilight is pretty fun.

:smalleek:

I can't think of many things in this game that would be worth losing one standard action/round over, but the ability to wear armor without needing Twilight is definitely not one of them, IMO. :smalltongue:


Oh, and did anyone ever try it as a mage killer? Super movement and AMF should make it pretty good at it, right?

Hmm. Its main class feature is Ex, so it wouldn't be as utterly boned as most.

But you would still be playing a gish in an AMF, if you go that route. :smallfrown:

herrhauptmann
2009-10-31, 12:04 PM
Few questions regarding the swiftblade.
What are good ways to get into the PrC
Wiz 6 or Sorc 6.
Duskblade gets 3rd level casting around level 9 I think. Though I don't think haste is on their list.
Beguiler 6 (sorc spell progression and has haste)
Warmage X. You'd need eclectic learning to get haste as a 4th level spell.

If the swiftblade casts haste from an item, wand, or custom item or something, does he still get the benefit of his PrC? Or does he have to cast haste using a spell slot?

What are some good selfbuff spells for the swiftblade?
Blur and displacement won't be as useful because they won't stack with his class features. What else?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-31, 12:07 PM
Bard 7, though you may want to go for Bard 8 and get an extra point of Inspire Courage.

herrhauptmann
2009-10-31, 12:16 PM
Time and Celerity domains cast haste as well.
So if you spent a level where your only third level spells were your domains...
Clericzilla, on speed. :)

ErrantX
2009-10-31, 12:22 PM
Bard 7, though you may want to go for Bard 8 and get an extra point of Inspire Courage.

I like the Sublime Swiftblade option myself. If I remember correctly (I'm not in front of my books) it's something like Bard 8 / Swiftblade 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Swiftblade +8. I may be wrong here, I'm sure someone else knows the build better than I.

-X

mostlyharmful
2009-10-31, 12:26 PM
Time and Celerity domains cast haste as well.
So if you spent a level where your only third level spells were your domains...
Clericzilla, on speed. :)

But you'd still have problems with getting access to more than one or two Hastes a day when you're in Swiftblade, it doesn't add Haste to your spells known or anything.

herrhauptmann
2009-10-31, 12:31 PM
But you'd still have problems with getting access to more than one or two Hastes a day when you're in Swiftblade, it doesn't add Haste to your spells known or anything.

Hence my question about casting haste from an item. Custom 'shoes of haste' at fifth level casting should last 5 rounds and cost about 27k. Using that probably won't net the timestop ability which requires 6th level casting of haste, but you should still get the misschances and freedom of movement.

Ernir
2009-10-31, 12:50 PM
But you'd still have problems with getting access to more than one or two Hastes a day when you're in Swiftblade, it doesn't add Haste to your spells known or anything.

Spontaneous domain casting?

As for the items... I can't find a RAW on that. :smallconfused:
Most of the Swiftblade abilities specify a Haste spell "that you cast yourself", so I don't think I would let it fly in my games, though...

Danin
2009-10-31, 12:56 PM
I'm still working on finding a way of fitting swashbuckler 3 and a full TWF progression in with the PRC while still maintaining 8th level spells. That said, awesome PRC.

herrhauptmann
2009-10-31, 01:04 PM
Casting from an item is still casting though. Only the entry requirement, and the capstone specify casting using spell slots.
Though you won't get your sudden casting of haste either so actually casting haste from an item will cost a standard action. That can be nullified with another custom item "Boots of quickened haste" :)

I'm looking at the swiftblade handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871410/The_Swiftblade_Handbook) and most of the spells listed seem to be pretty standard wizard ones. You know, spells that are good for batman, but less so for a gish. Not too many seem to be spells that directly buff the caster to make him a better combatant (greater magic weap/armor of course are good)

Gorbash
2009-10-31, 01:58 PM
Personally, I'd go with Elf Wizard 6. Free Martial Weapon Proficiency. Transmuter preferably. And for the flavor and the power.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-10-31, 02:11 PM
If you can use Extra Spell to grab Haste, Duskblade would make a very good Swiftblade. I could also see a lot of glee using it in Gestalt.

Fax Celestis
2009-10-31, 02:42 PM
If you've got a nice DM, you could maybe qualify with ranger's swift haste plus Sword of the Arcane Order for an interesting take on it.

Ernir
2009-10-31, 03:09 PM
If you can use Extra Spell to grab Haste, Duskblade would make a very good Swiftblade. I could also see a lot of glee using it in Gestalt.

A Duskblade/Swiftblade//Archivist gestalt is one of my pet projects, waiting for a game of suitable power...

Boci
2009-10-31, 03:10 PM
A Duskblade/Swiftblade//Archivist gestalt is one of my pet projects, waiting for a game of suitable power...

Do you have an rpol account?

Flickerdart
2009-10-31, 03:12 PM
I played a Maenad Wizard 5 (Fighter feat variant)/Fighter 1 (SA, Thug variants)/Swiftblade 1 for a low-level one-shot, using Psionic Weapon, the single SA die I had and a Spell Storing weapon with Scorching Rays and such to hurt things. The lack of hitpoints hurt: my companions were flying and moving 240 on a charge respectively, so I ended up soaking the hurt. This was the only time I've ever played a gish, and it was a fun and different experience, even if I was horribly MAD (Speed of Thought, Psionic Weapon and other prereqs made me 13/13/14/15/13/8) and often missed. The class desperately needs a bonus source of damage for its early levels, before the uber-haste abilities come into full swing.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-10-31, 05:01 PM
Flickerdart the bonus dmg seem like spell thief would make a good choice expecaly if one where to take master spellthief... i meen its eaither an extra d6 or you deny an opponite one of his

herrhauptmann
2009-11-01, 12:01 AM
A list of spells suggested from the Swiftblade handbook:
1st Level Spells:
Familiar Pocket (SC)
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerverskitter (SC)
Ray of Enfeeblement (PHB)
Ray of Clumsiness (SC)
Shield (PHB)


2nd Level Spells:
Bear's Endurance (PHB)
Blade Weave (SC)
Bull's Strength (PHB)
Heroics (SC)
Luminous Armor (BoED)
Mirror Image (PHB)
Scorching Ray (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)
Fly (PHB)
Greater Mage Armor (SC)
Greater Magic Weapon (PHB)
Heroism (PHB)
Slow (PHB)

4th Level Spells:
Assay Spell Resistance (SC)
Black Tentacles (PHB)
Dimension Door (PHB)
Dimensional Anchor
Heart of Earth(CM)
Greater Invisibility (PHB)
Greater Luminous Armor (BoED)
Polymorph (PHB)

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Dominate Person (PHB)
Fabricate (PHB)
Greater Blink (SC)
Teleport (PHB)
Wall of Force (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Chain Lightning (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)
Greater Heroism (PHB)
Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability (SC)
True Seeing (PHB)

7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Irresistible Dance (PHB)
Maze (PHB)
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polar Ray (SC)
Power Word Stun (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)
A lot of those spells are really good, but they seem like they're more to improve your contribution as a caster, or to deal direct damage. (Not shapechange, greater magic weap/armor etc). What spells would people recommend to help boost martial abilities?
One I know is what one of my players had for her VoP monk1/sorcererX over the summer : Fist of Stone (or something along those lines)

deuxhero
2009-11-18, 10:45 PM
But you'd still have problems with getting access to more than one or two Hastes a day when you're in Swiftblade, it doesn't add Haste to your spells known or anything.

Spontaneous domain?

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-18, 11:12 PM
Anybody know of a means to gain early entry to Swiftblade? the requirement of using your own slots still leaves most methods ineffective, but there's got to be one way or another to finagle yourself into the class before 7th level. Any ideas?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-11-18, 11:14 PM
Anybody know of a means to gain early entry to Swiftblade? the requirement of using your own slots still leaves most methods ineffective, but there's got to be one way or another to finagle yourself into the class before 7th level. Any ideas?

well technicaly the trapfind prc from dungion scape can i don't know what the earlyest entry for that is ...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-18, 11:23 PM
A list of spells suggested from the Swiftblade handbook:
1st Level Spells:
Grease (PHB)
Mage Armor (PHB)
Nerverskitter (SC)
Shield (PHB)


2nd Level Spells:
Mirror Image (PHB)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd Level Spells:
Haste (PHB)
Dispel Magic (PHB)

4th Level Spells:

Dimension Door (PHB)
Polymorph (PHB)

5th Level Spells:
Acid Sheath (SC)
Baleful Polymorph(PHB)
Teleport (PHB)

6th Level Spells:
Disintegrate (PHB)
Contingency (PHB)
Greater Dispel Magic (SC)

7th Level Spells:
Energy Absorption (SC)
Force Cage (PHB)
Limited Wish (PHB)
Prismatic Spray (PHB)
Reverse Gravity (PHB)


8th Level Spells:
Mind Blank (PHB)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

9th Level Spells:
Time Stop (PHB)
Gate (PHB)
Shapechange (PHB)
Wish (PHB)
A lot of those spells are really good, but they seem like they're more to improve your contribution as a caster, or to deal direct damage. (Not shapechange, greater magic weap/armor etc). What spells would people recommend to help boost martial abilities?
One I know is what one of my players had for her VoP monk1/sorcererX over the summer : Fist of Stone (or something along those lines)

Removed the non-useful spells from the list for ya. Also boldfaced the only three spells you'll ever need.

herrhauptmann
2009-11-18, 11:51 PM
Thank you shneekey,
I've posted that question several times without getting an answer. (It's never been important enough to warrant its own thread I felt, so it always got ignored when I asked it as a set).

What do you think of 'fist of stone'? Sorc/wiz 1, complete arcane?
edit: spelling

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-18, 11:53 PM
I like the spell.

Ernir
2009-11-19, 08:36 PM
Anybody know of a means to gain early entry to Swiftblade? the requirement of using your own slots still leaves most methods ineffective, but there's got to be one way or another to finagle yourself into the class before 7th level. Any ideas?

This post links to a googledoc I think you're interested in. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6616598#post6616598)