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Greymane
2009-10-30, 02:10 PM
After engrossing myself in another button-mashing session against China's greatest warrior in Dynasty Warriors, I've decided I wanted to maybe see this guy statted out. Assuming all books are allowed, how could The Mighty Lu Bu be most accurately created? Let's make it Gestalt. He deserves that.

So far, I think the class line-up would be Swordsage//Ranger (Archery). Other thoughts?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-30, 02:13 PM
Lu Bu had every aspect of a dog except for loyalty.

Zovc
2009-10-30, 02:14 PM
I think you're forgetting about someone else who could be considered China's greatest warrior from a much more accurate, modern standpoint:

http://www.thinkhero.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/brucelee34.jpg

Optimystik
2009-10-30, 02:15 PM
I think you're forgetting about someone else who could be considered China's greatest warrior from a much more accurate, modern standpoint:

An unarmed Swordsage?

Myrmex
2009-10-30, 02:15 PM
Lu Bu had every aspect of a dog except for loyalty.

Here you go. (http://instantrimshot.com/)

Greymane
2009-10-30, 02:19 PM
Haha. I love Bruce Lee, but this is not about him.

Though, Lu Bu does not appear to be very popular. :smallfrown:

sadi
2009-10-30, 02:30 PM
I'd rather use the romance of the three kingdoms version where he'd have sub 10s for int, wis and cha. I have no doubt he'd also be Neutral Evil/Chaotic Evil.

The New Bruceski
2009-10-30, 02:33 PM
+5 to all stats when pursued.

Zaydos
2009-10-30, 02:39 PM
Lu Bu is unpopular because despite being the greatest warrior (in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms books he fights Guan Yu and Zhang Fei or is it Liu Bei and Zhang Fei to a standstill till the 3rd "brother" joins in) he's a stupid ass. I only read the first part of the books (where Lu Bu was still in command) and played Romance of the Three Kingdoms II for the SNES so I'm not an expert but he really was rather dumb, easily manipulated, and uncharismatic. Excellent physical array (all 18s) but subpar mental stats.

In his defense most of his betrayals had to do with being duped, or seduced, but by the point I stopped reading he'd gone from a well meaning fool to simply a self-serving one. Probably starting True Neutral and shifting towards Neutral or Chaotic Evil.

If going by the historical build I'd say he needs some mounted abilities and some mount ability for his super horse (Red Hare I want to say although that might have been the other horse). I'd be more useful if I had reached where he actually died.

Telonius
2009-10-30, 02:44 PM
Historically? Hard to stat. He was supposedly a mighty warrior, a superb horseman, though totally without honor. That last bit makes him rather hard to stat. His personality screams Ronin (CWar) - what with slaying both of his adoptive fathers and all - but I really do not want to put Samurai levels anywhere near the "mightiest warrior in the land." Warblade would definitely go in there somewhere. Mounted combat suggests Knight, but his chaotic alignment would prevent that.

Warblade//Rogue, then. Craven feat is obvious. Focus on Halberd tactics.

Akal Saris
2009-10-30, 02:47 PM
"Run! It's Lu Bu!"

(Sorry, that's just about the only line I can remember from DW aside from 'We need more reinforcements!')

Somewhere
2009-10-30, 02:56 PM
I'd say Chaotic Neutral. He wasn't an evil dude (Dong Zhuo would be an example of Evil from that era).

Moriato
2009-10-30, 02:58 PM
I think you're forgetting about someone else who could be considered China's greatest warrior from a much more accurate, modern standpoint:

http://www.thinkhero.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/brucelee34.jpg

If by warrior, you mean actor, then I agree.

Edit: I suppose I should say "Martial arts star" instead of "actor" but you get the idea. I would think to be considered a "warrior" one would have to have been in.. well, a war.

Kulture
2009-10-30, 03:00 PM
*remembers DW4:EL and Lu Bu's Musou mode*

Uber-charger build using a halberd....
If we're running off DW, definately the uber-charger.
The guy's Musou mode literally requires you to kill a thousand or more people as quickly as possible.

from his mounted combat to his supposed kill-count all scream uber-charger, and mounted uber-charger at that.

It'd explain his obscene damage in all of the games.

Zaydos
2009-10-30, 03:05 PM
*remembers DW4:EL and Lu Bu's Musou mode*

Uber-charger build using a halberd....
If we're running off DW, definately the uber-charger.
The guy's Musou mode literally requires you to kill a thousand or more people as quickly as possible.

from his mounted combat to his supposed kill-count all scream uber-charger, and mounted uber-charger at that.

It'd explain his obscene damage in all of the games.

It was his famous tactic historically too. Charge on horse with halberd = win. Course if that failed he could still match anyone in sword skill.

Greymane
2009-10-30, 07:57 PM
Alright. So, a mounted Ubercharger. Warblade then, with that Twin Soul homebrewed discipline perhaps?

dyslexicfaser
2009-10-30, 08:30 PM
Not a bad idea at all, Twin Spirit sounds like it would fit him well. Maybe his other gestalt half could be ranger, to improve Red Hare and give him skill with archery?

And as for Bruce Lee...


If by warrior, you mean actor, then I agree.

Edit: I suppose I should say "Martial arts star" instead of "actor" but you get the idea. I would think to be considered a "warrior" one would have to have been in.. well, a war.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/warrior: See second definition.

Okay, so maybe Lee wasn't Masutatsu Oyama (the Godhand, who reportedly killed 52 bulls with his bare hands in his time, at least one and perhaps as many as three in a single blow), but the man was still a legend.

I saw a neat build for him utilizing monkX/factotum8. It gave him almost gravity-defying athletic skill (str+int+ranks), and a lot of use of Flurry and Cunning Surge let him unload punches like nobody's business.

Flayerman
2009-10-30, 08:36 PM
Make sure he has a special ability:

Don't Pursue Lu Bu (Ex): Lu Bu cannot be pursued. Lu Bu does not provoke attacks of opportunity by moving through a threatened square.


EDIT: On a more serious note, I'd think Warblade 20 would solve all your problems.

scsimodem
2009-10-30, 09:03 PM
As far as statting him out, I'd have to take a look at the melee classes to see how I'd do it, but I can help you in how he was defeated.

In 198 AD, he was cornered by Liu Bei and Cao Cao at Xiapi (pronounced shyah-pee). Liu Bei and Cao Cao, who had fought alongside each other in overthrowing the Han Dynasty headed by Dong Zhuo's puppet emperor, had made a temporary alliance solely for this purpose. At the advice of some of their officers, Cao Cao and Liu Bei used the Yi and Si rivers to flood the fortress and Xiapi. Lu Bu ignored his advisers, claiming Red Hare could run on water as well as on land. Then Lu Bu saw himself getting unhealthy off all the wine and sex he was having, so he banned alcohol from the fortress. One of his men caught a traitor trying to steal supplies and thought a good drink would help him and his men celebrate. To appease Lu Bu, he offered him a large portion of the best wine. He was beaten for violating the ban, so he conspired with two other officers and had Red Hare released from the city through the only gate that wasn't flooded.

Seeing this, the besieging troops attacked and Lu Bu had to personally aid in defense of the walls, so that night he slept on the wall, away from his bodyguards. His own men then tied him up while he slept and handed him over to Cao Cao in exchange for a peaceful surrender. They even threw down his halberd to prove he had been captured. Lu Bu offered to join Cao Cao, claiming that together, they could conquer all of China. Liu Bei then pointed out what happened to Lu Bu's last two lords (he killed them both), and Cao Cao had him strangled and beheaded.

So yeah, in the end, he was betrayed by his own men, who took him out in his sleep.

elliott20
2009-10-30, 09:21 PM
if we're gestalting, warblade/fighter to get all the feats and badass maneuver-y you'd need.

BobVosh
2009-10-30, 09:59 PM
So yeah, in the end, he was betrayed by his own men, who took him out in his sleep.

So...don't give him sense motive?

TheOOB
2009-10-30, 10:06 PM
Lu Bu always struck me as more of an Exalted character. He's a shoe in for Dawn Caste Solar.

TengYt
2009-10-31, 10:20 AM
He was also a fantastic archer, both historically and in the novel. His "shooting the halberd" feat appears in historical texts, meaning it actually happened.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-31, 11:30 AM
He was also a fantastic archer, both historically and in the novel. His "shooting the halberd" feat appears in historical texts, meaning it actually happened.

Technically, it means that people thought it happened.

Indon
2009-10-31, 11:45 AM
Ubercharger with a couple levels of Warblade.

Just a couple, though, since I don't believe he was ever depicted as a finesse-type fighter. He beat his enemies through sheer power.

Omegonthesane
2009-10-31, 12:02 PM
Ubercharger with a couple levels of Warblade.

Just a couple, though, since I don't believe he was ever depicted as a finesse-type fighter. He beat his enemies through sheer power.

I'm... pretty sure you can build a Warblade with a lack of finesse, and there's only so far you can get as a warrior with no finesse at all. Also, ToB has the only non-homebrew martial classes that are worth anything by mid-level in a game with casters.

Shpadoinkle
2009-10-31, 12:11 PM
Ubercharger with a couple levels of Warblade.

Just a couple, though, since I don't believe he was ever depicted as a finesse-type fighter. He beat his enemies through sheer power.

Stone Dragon and Iron Heart aren't exactly subtle disciplines. And cnsidering what he accomplished with the relatively small number of men under his command, White Raven is a pretty good candidate as well.

But yeah Lu Bu was portrayed as extraordinarily, almost superhumanly strong and gifted in all forms of combat. So I'd personally go with something like fighter20//barbarian2/warblade18. Fighter gives all the archery and mounted combat and charger feats to cover that stuff that wouldn't be possible with just warblade levels, the warblade levels give him access to a huge array of fighting techniques, and the barbarian levels give him rage (to boost his strength even further) and Uncanny Dodge.

Indon
2009-10-31, 12:11 PM
I'm... pretty sure you can build a Warblade with a lack of finesse, and there's only so far you can get as a warrior with no finesse at all. Also, ToB has the only non-homebrew martial classes that are worth anything by mid-level in a game with casters.

There's only one caster in the Rot3K story, that I recall, and he's not very high level.

All of the major warlords gang up on him early on and kill him.

Fighter is just fine.

Ellington
2009-10-31, 12:12 PM
He was also a fantastic archer, both historically and in the novel. His "shooting the halberd" feat appears in historical texts, meaning it actually happened.

Hahahaha, oh wow.

Anyways, just make him a really high level fighter with a polearm and a warhorse. Excellent physical stats, so so mental stats. Easy as that.

TengYt
2009-10-31, 03:09 PM
Technically, it means that people thought it happened.

True. However, the Sanguozhi is the only real historical text we have on the period. More or less, it's the most accurate account of the era available.

Hmm, I wonder what kind of stats Red Hare would have? The novel version was pretty damn impressive and was also very long lived for a warhorse.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-31, 03:16 PM
True. However, the Sanguozhi is the only real historical text we have on the period. More or less, it's the most accurate account of the era available.
It also lies! (Embellishes, at the very least)

Innis Cabal
2009-10-31, 03:22 PM
I'd rather use the romance of the three kingdoms version where he'd have sub 10s for int, wis and cha. I have no doubt he'd also be Neutral Evil/Chaotic Evil.

This is utterly untrue. He was quite the cunning stratagist and inspired men on his side with his power. Nor would he be evil. CN sure.

TengYt
2009-10-31, 03:31 PM
It also lies! (Embellishes, at the very least)

Whilst it certainly embelishes, name a single historical text of that age that didn't :smallwink: Again, it's the closest we have to an accurate account of the Three Kingdoms era.

Like others have said, a gestalt build using ToB is probably best for Lu Bu. I don't think, say, Fighter 20 would be enough for him if we're using the novel's characterisation. Considering he fought a duel against the Three Brothers at once (And this is novel Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, who's physical feats were pretty damn impressive themselves. Guan Yu was even deitised!) I think he needs a pretty good build.

Somewhere
2009-10-31, 03:31 PM
There's author bias, as the compiler of Sanguozhi happened to have worked for Shu during its fall.
Still, it's the best historical source there is. Trust it like you would trust any other historical text. (oh human history, how can't you be skewed)

ZeroNumerous
2009-10-31, 04:58 PM
Though, Lu Bu does not appear to be very popular. :smallfrown:

That's probably because he's worse than Eldrad. The only thing you can count on him for is the inevitable betrayal.

Shpadoinkle
2009-10-31, 06:48 PM
Haha. I love Bruce Lee, but this is not about him.

Though, Lu Bu does not appear to be very popular. :smallfrown:

That's because he killed two adoptive fathers and betrayed pretty much everyone he ever worked for.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-10-31, 06:59 PM
Ability-wise, 'Dynasty Warriors' Lu Bu struck me as something of a Barbarian/Dervish/Frenzied Berserker... -thing with powerful build and a highly unlikely warhorse that was one part paladin mount and one part animal companion.

RPGuru1331
2009-10-31, 07:01 PM
I forget, are Warblades and the like (Su)? If so, that.. might not fit.

He's certainly not /evil/. He's just an antagonist in the story, and afraid of death. True, he usurped Liu Bei, but he didn't really mean him any harm when he left Dong Zhuo's forces. I think he invites the Sworn Bros to a boozing session, they were just a wee bit irritated with him and declined. I might be wrong there though.

Frankly, I thought this thread would be about Red Hare..

Oslecamo
2009-10-31, 07:09 PM
This is utterly untrue. He was quite the cunning stratagist and inspired men on his side with his power. Nor would he be evil. CN sure.

+1. Lu Bu may have not been the most diplomatic dude around, but he was both a good tactician and knew how to keep himself alive. You don't become a comander just for having big muscles.

Also he's more probably neutral. Sure he betrayed a lot of people, but those people were just as bad as him and would've eventualy betrayed him anyway. It's his lack of charisma wich gets him killed, as he starts piling up more and more enemies.

This is, point me to a three kingdom characters wich didn't end up doing some bastardly act and still won a lot of batles?

Somewhere
2009-10-31, 07:12 PM
More like Zhang Fei had one last booze session then he smacked around some in-law of Lu Bu's. Then Lu Bu took over the place from drunken Zhang Fei. Then I think afterward Liu Bei's like 'eh, you can have the place'.

The example that stands out in my mind as to why Lu Bu isn't Evil is his treatment of Liu Bei's wives after that. He didn't hurt them. He placed them under guard so they weren't in danger. They were rather complimentary of him when they reunited with Liu Bei.
An Evil guy in that situation would either take them into his harem or kill them off as examples.

Lu Bu gets a lot of (deserved) flack for his betrayals. But he wasn't all that bad a guy, personally.

TengYt
2009-10-31, 07:20 PM
To be honest, the whole time period was rife with backstabbing. Lu Bu just gets a whole lot more flak for it than most do. Liu Bei, for example, was a brilliant general and had a charismatic aura around him that attracted others, but was known to change his loyalties as soon as things started to go badly for him. Much of his early career involved him hopping from master to master. (Gongsun Zan to Tao Qian to technically Lu Bu to Cao Cao to Yuan Shao to Liu Biao to technically Liu Qi)

Somewhere
2009-10-31, 07:27 PM
To be fair, he never really was formally under Gongsun Zan. And Gongsun Zan got stupid or something and fumbled badly in fighting.... Yuan Shao? while completely separate from Liu Bei. And Tao Qian died of old age. Lu Bu to Liu Biao's fair game. I don't even count Liu Qi as being ever in charge.

Speaking of Liu Biao; another example of ambitionless nice guys going nowhere in that era.

RPGuru1331
2009-10-31, 07:35 PM
Oh, that reminds me. It's not entirely true that the Rot3K is the only record of the period. It's the most complete one though,and a generally accurate one, if not in the particulars. It's also a lot more fun to read then real sources.

Somewhere
2009-10-31, 07:37 PM
Oh, that reminds me. It's not entirely true that the Rot3K is the only record of the period. It's the most complete one though,and a generally accurate one, if not in the particulars. It's also a lot more fun to read then real sources.

Are you referring to Sanguozhi or Sanguo Yanyi? One's Record, the other's Romance :smalltongue:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-10-31, 08:49 PM
Why does it seem like Romance of the Three Kingdoms gets all the attention these days? How come no one's ever wanted to stat up anything from Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queene?

Kojiro Kakita
2009-10-31, 09:16 PM
Yeah, seeing how it was a common procedure to legitimizing and weakening the portrayal of opposing leaders during the early chinese periods, it is interesting to see how LU BU is portrayed. An interesting portrayal can be found in the chinese comic, The RAVAGES OF TIME
http://www.onemanga.com/The_Ravages_of_Time/

In it he is portrayed as a fearless leader of men, intelligent, and arguable one of the greater warriors of the period. His only flaw, if any, is his ambition, which eventually led to his downfall.
Since he is somewhat self serving, I would have to give him a LE alignment.

Oslecamo
2009-10-31, 09:28 PM
Ah, yes, Ravages of time, great manga!


http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000348/000197522/22.jpg
YES HE'S DUAL WIELDING HALBERDS FILLED WITH CORPSES!


But anyway, the main reason he gets defeated it's because his diplomatic skills suck big time. There are other highly ambitious people out there, but they take care of making alliances and treasons, while Lu Bu just does treasons, and that ends up grinding down his forces untill he's zerged to death.

AslanCross
2009-10-31, 09:39 PM
Historically? Hard to stat. He was supposedly a mighty warrior, a superb horseman, though totally without honor. That last bit makes him rather hard to stat. His personality screams Ronin (CWar) - what with slaying both of his adoptive fathers and all - but I really do not want to put Samurai levels anywhere near the "mightiest warrior in the land." Warblade would definitely go in there somewhere. Mounted combat suggests Knight, but his chaotic alignment would prevent that.

Warblade//Rogue, then. Craven feat is obvious. Focus on Halberd tactics.

Actually, Ronin does not require samurai levels at all. It requires BAB +6, EWP: Bastard sword, and the RP requirement of having fled in the line of duty or otherwise betrayed the trust of a lord. Warblade//Rogue would probably be a lot better, though.

Oslecamo
2009-10-31, 09:45 PM
Actually, Ronin does not require samurai levels at all. It requires BAB +6, EWP: Bastard sword, and the RP requirement of having fled in the line of duty or otherwise betrayed the trust of a lord. Warblade//Rogue would probably be a lot better, though.

No it wouldn't. Lu-Bu is hardly sneacky, he likes to charge up the front and his noncombat skills suck big time. He doesn't really have any rogue features. As for warblade, it could as easily be barbarian, or fighter, or crusader, or heck, even a paladin or monk with godly stats. He do likes to punch people a lot.

RPGuru1331
2009-10-31, 09:59 PM
Well, no, he couldn't be a paladin. Especially not a 3.5 one.

And while he COULD be a Fighter, a Fighter would be boring to stat. Without that stuff, I'd suggest a system a little more.. interesting to see swordswingers in, but they're there, so it works.

Oslecamo
2009-10-31, 10:11 PM
Well, no, he couldn't be a paladin. Especially not a 3.5 one.

I was talking about the alternate alignment paladins like paladin of slaughter.



And while he COULD be a Fighter, a Fighter would be boring to stat. Without that stuff, I'd suggest a system a little more.. interesting to see swordswingers in, but they're there, so it works.
Says who? Lu Bu clearly has a lot of combat feats, wich he'll need fighter levels to get.

RPGuru1331
2009-10-31, 10:24 PM
Says who? Lu Bu clearly has a lot of combat feats, wich he'll need fighter levels to get.

Ah, interesting. My words are obscured to others. This will be useful in my schemes ¬.¬

Says... I? Swordswingers are boring in previous editions of Dungeons nad Dragons. And he 'clearly' had relatively little, considerring that only the most exceptional individual feats (lower case, as I refer to actions, not game mechanics) were enumerated in detail in the Romance. It's not that he's not capable, I'm just aware it can be represented multiple ways, so I opt for the more interesting one.

Raiki
2009-10-31, 11:53 PM
Fairly easy to stat if you ask me. Fighter 20 going weapon supremacy route w/ halberd//barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker 10. You've got Ride covered, You're god with a halberd, and that +10 feet of fast movement explains why you can never get the f*** away from him at Hu Lao Gate. And for anyone denying FB, have you played DW5?

~R~

Xaklin_Magewrit
2009-11-01, 03:22 AM
Fairly easy to stat if you ask me. Fighter 20 going weapon supremacy route w/ halberd//barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker 10. You've got Ride covered, You're god with a halberd, and that +10 feet of fast movement explains why you can never get the f*** away from him at Hu Lao Gate. And for anyone denying FB, have you played DW5?

~R~

Why did you pursue you never pursue.

TengYt
2009-11-01, 05:57 AM
Y'know, for me, it was always Lu Bu pursuing ME in those games :smalleek:

ZeroNumerous
2009-11-01, 05:59 AM
Stat-wise: Lu Bu is a warblade.

Musou? Maneuvers: Check.
Likes to be flashy? High Charisma and Perform(Weapon Drill): Check.
LOUD AND BOISTEROUS? White Raven: Check.
No capability for stealth? No access to Shadow Hand: Check. :smallamused:

Oslecamo
2009-11-01, 06:09 AM
Likes to be flashy? High Charisma and Perform(Weapon Drill): Check.

He doesn't really have high charisma. Like this thread shows, most people just hated him and he really couldn't manipulate people or even notice when he was being cheated. His flashiness is just a dude with a lot of class levels and maximized intimidate.



LOUD AND BOISTEROUS? White Raven: Check.
What does one thing has to do with another? Actualy, Lu Bu just loved to charge by himself, so even if he was a warblade, he wouldn't sacrifice his few known maneuvers in something that wouldn't do him any good.

Heck, if anything, it proves even more that he's a CW samurai specialized in intimidate, jumping in the middle of the enemy troops to demoralize them. A quite effecient tactic when 99.999% of the people you're fighting are lv1-2 warriors.