Ascendant feats [3.5]

[Godskook]

Ascendant Feats
The fool believes that magic is power. True warriors know that magic is merely a shortcut for the weak. The strong earn the right to wield it, an honor unmatched among the 'mages' of this land.
-Allan, the first Ascendant.

Rules
Ascendant feats are a collection of related feats, each dealing with unlocking the potency of a person's body without the assistance of 'cheating'(read: magic). The abilities granted by an Ascendant feat is always extraordinary, unless specifically mentioned. Additionally, unlike most feats, Ascendant feats require dedicated training of the body without the use of magic, and thus, levels in any class that bypasses this training to obtain magical or psionic power cheaply is worthless and can't be used to qualify for these feats*. That means that if a feat has a BAB requirement of +3, a Fighter 1/Wizard 4 would not qualify. Finally, if a class may be used to qualify for Ascendant feats, he may choose an Ascendant feat instead of a class feat whenever he receives a bonus feat, even if it is from a restricted list.

*This includes psionics, vancian, invocation, binding, essentia and initiators. This list is not exhaustive, so DM discretion is required for other classes, but those that definitely qualify are rogue, scout, fighter, barbarian, monk, and swashbuckler.

Prowess checks

A prowess check is a check to see how powerful a character is. A PC adds his full ECL plus the number of Ascendant feats he possesses to the roll. A

The feats:

True Potential [Ascendant]
Steel sharpens steel, and like so does one man sharpen another. Only by facing death, delivered by a worthy foe, can we truly transcend our weaknesses and become truly powerful.
Prerequisites:
-Must have dueled an opponent of a CR at least equal to your ECL in deadly combat and won.
-ECL 6 (can be taken by a 6th level fighter, or does that mean ECL 5?)
Benefits: A player with this feat adds 1/4 of his HD to all skill checks. He is also now eligible to take Ascendant feats. This counts as a Ascendant feat for the purpose of determining the number of Ascendant feats a character has.

Battle Stride [Ascendant]
True warriors move across the battlefield with the grace and ferocity of lions.
Prerequisites:
-One [Ascendant] feat
-ECL 8
Benefits: You may move* up to your speed before any attack you make(including AoOs). You may do so a number of times per round equal to the number of your [Ascendant] feats. If you do so, you sacrifice a move action for this round.
*Not 'take a move action', just simply 'move'.

Eye of Tiger [Ascendant]
With an enhanced awareness, you can take advantage of almost any opening
Prerequisites:
-Battle Stride
-ECL 12
Benefits: Your threatened area is determined by your reach + your speed.
Normal: Your threatened area is determined by your reach with a melee weapon.

Flash Step [Ascendant]
You move at speeds so fast that even magic has to struggle to keep up.
Prerequisites:
-Any two [Ascendant] feats
Benefits: Whenever you move, opponents must succeed on an opposed prowess check in order to react to your movement. Failure means that they can not react to your movement. Reactive magic(such as contingencies) uses its caster level as its prowess modifier. In this case, failure means that the magic will not trigger, unless you are still triggering the effect after making your movement. If you attack at the end of the movement, your first attack is treated as part of that movement for the purpose of determining if something can react to it.

A character's prowess modifier is:
1/2 RHD + BAB from class levels + 1/2 # of relevant feats
Exceptions:
If a creature only has RHD, its prowess modifier is: 3/4 RHD
A martial adept may substitute his initiator level for his BAB.

Improved Flash Step [Ascendant]
Your speed improves even farther.
Prerequisites:
-Flash Step
Benefits: Whenever an opponent fails a level check against your flash step, they are treated as flat footed against your next attack.

Superb Talent [Ascendant]
Your natural talent is apparent in everything you do. Nothing is too complicated or unfamiliar.
Prerequisites:
-True Potential
-100 skill points
Benefits: You may add a 1/2 HD bonus to any skill check you make, instead of using your rank in that skill. This stacks with the bonus gained from True Potential, gaining a total 3/4 HD bonus on skills where both apply.

Calculated Movement [Ascendant]
Your keen awareness allows you to react to your opponent's movement as it is happening.
Prerequisites:
-Flash Step
-Battle Stride
Benefits: Calculated Movement enables the use of two tactical options.
Side Step: Whenever an opponent provokes an AoO from you due to movement, you may choose to forgo the AoO and instead move up to half your speed. Doing so counts against your limit of AoOs and Battle Strides for the round.
Timing: Whenever an opponent's movement goes through multiple squares you threaten, even though he only provokes one AoO for the movment, you may choose at which point in the motion you take the AoO. You make this choice after being told which direction his movement will be in, but before being told how far he will travel. If he stops mid-stride or turns sharply, the AoO is lost as if used.

[Cieyrin]

Eye of the Tiger needs a different mechanic name, as Threat range means something quite different than the way you're using it.

[arguskos]

Eye of the Tiger needs a different mechanic name, as Threat range means something quite different than the way you're using it.
The right phrase is "threatened area".

[Godskook]

The right phrase is "threatened area".

Well, that's fixed.

[Siosilvar]

Well, that's fixed.

Half-fixed.

Benefits: Your threatened area is determined by your reach + your speed.
Normal: Your threat range is determined by your reach with a melee weapon.

[Godskook]

Half-fixed.

Wholly fixed. Does nobody have comments on the feats in more broad sense than definitions of terms?

[Siosilvar]

It's VERY difficult to take any of them, seeing as 5% of your health is a rather small amount (around 2-3 HP at 6th level).

Prereqs should be reworded as "Fighter level..." unless you intended it to be on the Scout's bonus feat list (or similar).

[Mulletmanalive]

These look like Drangonball Z type feats. You can move a total of 240ft a round assuming a mere Dex of 14 and some foolish enemies.

That's faster than a world record sprinter and you still get to make 3 melee attacks at full BAB?

Well, i wouldn't include them and they aren't core balanced but if you're running a game with these in, sign me up because they're hillarious!

+
+
+
+
+
WHUPPASS!
[that last comment is actually completely serious. For combat this demented, i'd break my internet roleplaying embargo; it would be awesome!]

[Godskook]

It's VERY difficult to take any of them, seeing as 5% of your health is a rather small amount (around 2-3 HP at 6th level).

Too much, eh? Any other ideas that keep the flavor?


Prereqs should be reworded as "Fighter level..." unless you intended it to be on the Scout's bonus feat list (or similar).

I do. I wanted this to be available for fighters, scouts, non-casting paladins/rangers, rogues, and pretty much anything else similar that is pretty much 'shafted' in the 'combat options' department by casters, sublime warriors, and manifesters.

Edit:


These look like Drangonball Z type feats. You can move a total of 240ft a round assuming a mere Dex of 14 and some foolish enemies.

Actually, re-read the feats. You can only move a number of times per round equal to the number of XYZ feats you have. That's only three times with all three current feats, and a PC can already move faster. Just normally, he can't attack while doing so.


Well, i wouldn't include them and they aren't core balanced but if you're running a game with these in, sign me up because they're hillarious!

Glad you like them. As far as balance goes, I'm balancing this against the abrupt jaunt wizard, who can bounce around the battlefield like a pogo stick.


[that last comment is actually completely serious. For combat this demented, i'd break my internet roleplaying embargo; it would be awesome!]

I'll remember that.

[Milskidasith]

Notice how he didn't specify you had to move on the ground... If a mage flies overhead, you teleport upwards and slash him to death! Woo! And they're actually pretty awesome, though there need to be more. If there were enough of them to make an entire character, it might be able to take on a caste.

[Godskook]

Notice how he didn't specify you had to move on the ground... If a mage flies overhead, you teleport upwards and slash him to death! Woo! And they're actually pretty awesome, though there need to be more. If there were enough of them to make an entire character, it might be able to take on a caste.

Well, no, it doesn't allow you to move in new ways, so unless you can fly already, these feats don't give you the ability to fly.

[Milskidasith]

Well, no, it doesn't allow you to move in new ways, so unless you can fly already, these feats don't give you the ability to fly.

They should. A new feat should give you a fly speed = to your land speed * # (or 1/2 #) of XYZ feats, and maneuverability based on your XYZ feats (say, average with two, good with three, perfect with four).

Yes, it makes you absurdly fast, you threaten everything in the area, and can easily move to attack anything in the area. So what? It's awesome! You're SUPER SAYIN FIGHTER!

[Mulletmanalive]

Actually, re-read the feats. You can only move a number of times per round equal to the number of XYZ feats you have. That's only three times with all three current feats, and a PC can already move faster. Just normally, he can't attack while doing so.


Actually, my math is perfect, just statistically unlikely. You have a character in light armour, no speed enhancements, and Run. He runs 150ft, then makes three shifts every time people move within 35ft of him.

On the balance thing, i assumed it would be a Pogo mage; i've just kind of forgotten that kind of thing having switched back to 2e spell recovery after the first time i sat bored out of my skull through a "Kill plan." No, not core, but more fun for all, well most.

As is, these feats have more impact on the melee and ranged classes as they don't actually help you pierce magical defences, the other half of the ''god-mage" issue.

[Godskook]

Actually, my math is perfect, just statistically unlikely. You have a character in light armour, no speed enhancements, and Run. He runs 150ft, then makes three shifts every time people move within 35ft of him.

Well, you're measuring from the wrong angle. That's like saying you can take 2 swift actions per round by taking a swift action on your turn and taking an immediate action immediately after your turn ends. The 'borders' are always going to be wonky like that. However, if you move as part of an AoO, you lose a move action on your next turn, leaving only one 'action' per turn, preventing run actions, full attacks, and several other things, barring belts of battle.

(And since when does a run action produce move*5?)


As is, these feats have more impact on the melee and ranged classes as they don't actually help you pierce magical defences, the other half of the ''god-mage" issue.

You mean contingencies? I've got that in the works in this feat chain, and it should do the job just fine. In particular, it'll completely foil the CL 5 contingency that defeats L20 fighters in standard 3.5.

[ericgrau]

What keeps a rogue from dipping fighter for transcendence?

[Siosilvar]

(And since when does a run action produce move*5?)

Actually, my math is perfect, just statistically unlikely. You have a character in light armour, no speed enhancements, and Run.

It's a feat. In the PHB, no less.

[lesser_minion]

What keeps a rogue from dipping fighter for transcendence?

Any event where a foe can be flanked or denied his Dex bonus to AC, or provoke an attack of opportunity is not exactly a 'duel'.

Some builds could qualify, but I don't really see access to Transcendence actually being that much of a problem, +5 to all skill checks or not.

Most of the +5 bonuses would be wasted in any event.

As for Swift actions: If you take an immediate action, you always lose your next swift action, even if you had a swift left over from last round.

[Mulletmanalive]

Well, you're measuring from the wrong angle. That's like saying you can take 2 swift actions per round by taking a swift action on your turn and taking an immediate action immediately after your turn ends. The 'borders' are always going to be wonky like that. However, if you move as part of an AoO, you lose a move action on your next turn, leaving only one 'action' per turn, preventing run actions, full attacks, and several other things, barring belts of battle.

(And since when does a run action produce move*5?)

Missed that single sentence there and got myself confused.


You mean contingencies? I've got that in the works in this feat chain, and it should do the job just fine. In particular, it'll completely foil the CL 5 contingency that defeats L20 fighters in standard 3.5.

Not aware of How "god-mages" do it. I've just got a history of asking people to stop doing stuff like that or leave. Most of the players in question played a team game from then on. The other guy is why i don't run or play in pbp these days. Not worth the effort for the fun i was getting.

Out of interest, how does one create a cl5 version of a CL 11, level 6 spell?


As for Swift actions: If you take an immediate action, you always lose your next swift action, even if you had a swift left over from last round.

After stumbling across the words 'End Phase' in the 3.0 or 3.5 handbook, i've been treating turns as discreet units so you get one swift or immediate action in a given "turn" [between two end phases]. I've never really thought about gaming that particular thing but then, i allow action trades.

[imp_fireball]

Transcendence [Fighter]
Steel sharpens steel, and like so does one man sharpen another. Only by facing death, delivered by a worthy foe, can we truly transcend our weaknesses and become truly powerful.
Prerequisites:
-Must have dueled an opponent of a CR at least equal to your ECL in deadly combat, been reduced to less than 5% hit points, and then won.
-ECL 6 (can be taken by a 6th level fighter, or does that mean ECL 5?)
Benefits: A player with this feat adds 1/4 of his HD to all skill checks. If he has the feat Jack of all trades, he does not round the bonuses separately. He is also now eligible to take XYZ feats. This counts as a XYZ feat for the purpose of determining the number of XYZ feats a character has.
Special: This may only be taken as a class bonus feat. If a class offers casting, manifesting, initiating, or similar, that class is ineligible to take this feat as a bonus feat, and may not use levels in those classes to fulfill the prerequisites in any way.



-ECL 6 (can be taken by a 6th level fighter, or does that mean ECL 5?)

Why not BAB +6?


-Must have dueled an opponent of a CR at least equal to your ECL in deadly combat, been reduced to less than 5% hit points, and then won.

If you want, you can word it 'Must have faced a fighter of equal level in deadly combat, nearly perished, and won.', since that leaves it a little more up to GM discretion. Unless you want it to be a 'duel' in which a challenge is offered, which could be interpreted as 'honorable combat'. For flavor reasons, not all fighters are honorable, and some would argue this applies more to a class like the knight.

Also the fact that fighters are universal martial practitioners doesn't necessitate challenging only fighters. Note that if you want to word it this way, I'm not stopping you.


Special: This may only be taken as a class bonus feat. If a class offers casting, manifesting, initiating, or similar, that class is ineligible to take this feat as a bonus feat, and may not use levels in those classes to fulfill the prerequisites in any way.

Instead, say that it is a fighter bonus feat. That's how fighter bonus feats work. There's a reason they're called that. :smalltongue:


If he has the feat Jack of all trades, he does round the bonuses seperately

What does 'round the bonuses seperately' mean?

I'm too bored to help with the others.

EDIT: Wait, no I'm not!


Battle Stride [XYZ]
True warriors move across the battlefield with the grace and ferocity of lions.
Prerequisites:
-One [XYZ] feat
-ECL 8
Benefits: You may move* up to your speed before any attack you make(including AoOs). You may do so a number of times per round equal to the number of your [XYZ] feats. If you do so, you may not also take a move action on your turn.
Special: This may only be taken as a class bonus feat. If a class offers casting, manifesting, initiating, or similar, that class is ineligible to take this feat as a bonus feat, and may not use levels in those classes to fulfill the prerequisites in any way.
*Not 'take a move action', just simply 'move'.

It's a lot less confusing in D&D speech to word it as 'You may move up to your speed as an immediate action before any attack you make (including AoOs). You may do so a number of times per round equal to *insert feat tree and/or special list of homebrew feats I assume you are working on*. Doing so eliminates any move actions and movement you may take for the round, although you are not bereft of standard actions and full attacks (?).'

Also, 'ECL 8' should be BAB +8, otherwise any high racial HD LA creature can take it at low levels, unless that's your intention.



Eye of Tiger [XYZ]
With an enhanced awareness, you can take advantage of almost any opening
Prerequisites:
-Battle Stride
-ECL 12
Benefits: Your threatened area is determined by your reach + your speed.
Normal: Your threatened area is determined by your reach with a melee weapon.
Special: This may only be taken as a class bonus feat. If a class offers casting, manifesting, initiating, or similar, that class is ineligible to take this feat as a bonus feat, and may not use levels in those classes to fulfill the prerequisites in any way.

This is pretty exploitable and I'd definitely suggest the prerequisite be BAB +12 rather than ECL 12. Maybe even tumble ranks or the feat 'mobility' (for avoiding AoOs).


Well, i wouldn't include them and they aren't core balanced but if you're running a game with these in, sign me up because they're hillarious!

Off-topic, I homebrewed a DBZ class. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6976025#post6976025)

[Godskook]

This is pretty exploitable and I'd definitely suggest the prerequisite be BAB +12 rather than ECL 12. Maybe even tumble ranks or the feat 'mobility' (for avoiding AoOs).

I'll get around to the rest of the critique eventually, but I need to ask what you mean by 'exploitable'.

And the problem with trying to simplify the prerequisite wording is that, currently, monk and rogue levels can help qualify, but warblade levels can't, and that's how it is intended to work.

[DracoDei]

For a feat that is in the GENERAL direction of the last one on the list, see "blocker" in my extended signature.

[imp_fireball]

I'll get around to the rest of the critique eventually, but I need to ask what you mean by 'exploitable'.

It means that players can use it to upset the balance of the game. Exploitable as in 'exploit the game mechanics'. I don't really find the word all that confusing.



And the problem with trying to simplify the prerequisite wording is that, currently, monk and rogue levels can help qualify, but warblade levels can't, and that's how it is intended to work.

Well you could list it as a fighter bonus feat (which apparently warblades can't take? That's why they have weapon aptitude anyway I believe) or you could just simply list the classes applicable for the feat and not get tangled up in word use.

[Godskook]

It means that players can use it to upset the balance of the game. Exploitable as in 'exploit the game mechanics'. I don't really find the word all that confusing.

Well, yes and no. Yes, that's what 'exploitable' is defined as, but it isn't what it means in context. I still don't have any idea what balance issues you're concerned with that would provoke the comment. I understood your word choice, just not the reasoning behind it, and I was hoping you would elaborate on that.

[Mulletmanalive]

It doesn't sound like Imp actually understands what you're getting at with these feats.

Perhaps if you were to state '6 HD that do not contribute any form of Magical or Martial Adept ability' it would be clearer? [Assuming that's the goal based on all of your previous comments]

[DracoDei]

That phrasing wouldn't work, because EVERY class level contributes toward initiator level, just at 1/2 the rate for initiating classes.

Also, it had momentarily slipped my mind that Warblades can take fighter feats as if they were a fighter of 2 levels lower.

[imp_fireball]

Even better to just call the feat a fighter bonus feat, then to get tangled in word use.

Also that last feat is exploitable for reasons that very obviously relate to AoOs, combat reflexes and what ordinarily deems the spiked chain 'exploitable'.

I mean sure, a high DEX lowers the amount of damage you may deal when less goes towards investment in STR on a point buy basis, and it is by no means comparable to an uber charger (who doesn't usually take combat reflexes), but many would still deem it exploitable. Don't forget that a lot can provoke AoOs - being tripped and removing prone conditions among them.

Also, Eye of the Tiger removes point blank conditions against you, not that there are many to begin with (there should be more - range doesn't get enough love as is).

[Mulletmanalive]

That phrasing wouldn't work, because EVERY class level contributes toward initiator level, just at 1/2 the rate for initiating classes.

Also, it had momentarily slipped my mind that Warblades can take fighter feats as if they were a fighter of 2 levels lower.

The stated point here was supposed to be to add something to characters without nifty optional powers. Warblades don't need that so they don't get it. Hence why the boilerplate was put on the XYZ feat descriptor that it could only be taken as a bonus feat to a class that didn't supply spells, initiator ability or manifesting ability.

[DracoDei]

The stated point here was supposed to be to add something to characters without nifty optional powers. Warblades don't need that so they don't get it. Hence why the boilerplate was put on the XYZ feat descriptor that it could only be taken as a bonus feat to a class that didn't supply spells, initiator ability or manifesting ability.

I can see the point of the INTENT, which is why I was trying to help out with the wording by pointing out that it didn't work out to mean what it was intended to mean if examined more closely.

[Godskook]

Also that last feat is exploitable for reasons that very obviously relate to AoOs, combat reflexes and what ordinarily deems the spiked chain 'exploitable'.

I mean sure, a high DEX lowers the amount of damage you may deal when less goes towards investment in STR on a point buy basis, and it is by no means comparable to an uber charger (who doesn't usually take combat reflexes), but many would still deem it exploitable. Don't forget that a lot can provoke AoOs - being tripped and removing prone conditions among them.

1.So far, it sounds like you're seeing 'exploitable' where I made 'intended behavior'.

2.Using Eye of the Tiger/Battle Stride is limited to the number of [XYZ] feats you have. Currently, that's 3 times per round that someone can move while attacking. *AND*, it prevents you from using your move action if you use it. This number is unaffected by the number of AoOs you are allowed to take. If you could take 50 AoOs, but only have 3 [XYZ] feats, you can only move on 3 of them, and if you do, you've deprived yourself of a move action on your coming turn.

3.Eye of the tiger makes the Spiked Chain far less potent(intended), since you can just effectively move away from anything that's 'inside you're reach' with other polearms now.

4.This is balanced with spiked chain being considered a fair-game tactic. If you're DM has problems with the spiked chain in a balance context, he's not going to allow feats that look anything like this.


Also, Eye of the Tiger removes point blank conditions against you, not that there are many to begin with (there should be more - range doesn't get enough love as is).

What point blank conditions?

-----------------------------------------------
New feat in the set
-----------------------------------------------

Flash Step [XYZ]
You move at speeds so fast that even magic has to struggle to keep up.
Prerequisites:
-Any two [XYZ] feats
Benefits: Whenever you move as part of a battle stride, opponents must make a level check against a DC equal to your level plus the number of [XYZ] feats you have. Reactive magic(such as contingencies) instead makes a caster level check against the same DC.
Special: This may only be taken as a class bonus feat. If a class offers casting, manifesting, initiating, or similar, that class is ineligible to take this feat as a bonus feat, and may not use levels in those classes to fulfill the prerequisites in any way.

[Siosilvar]

What point blank conditions?

For example, from Point Blank Shot.

[DracoDei]

Flash Step [XYZ]
<snip>
Benefits: Whenever you move as part of a battle stride, opponents must make a level check against a DC equal to your level plus the number of [XYZ] feats you have. Reactive magic(such as contingencies) instead makes a caster level check against the same DC.
You don't mention what this check determines.

[Godskook]

@Draco, good catch. Here's the fix.

Flash Step [XYZ]
You move at speeds so fast that even magic has to struggle to keep up.
Prerequisites:
-Any two [XYZ] feats
Benefits: Whenever you move as part of a battle stride, opponents must make a level check against a DC equal to your level plus the number of [XYZ] feats you have. Failure means that foe can not react to your movement or attack until resolved. As a result, your movement will not provoke attacks of opportunities from that foe. Reactive magic(such as contingencies) instead makes a caster level check against the same DC. In this case, failure means that the magic will not trigger, unless you are still triggering the effect after making your attack.
Special: This may only be taken as a class bonus feat. If a class offers casting, manifesting, initiating, or similar, that class is ineligible to take this feat as a bonus feat, and may not use levels in those classes to fulfill the prerequisites in any way.

[Godskook]

Improved Flash Step [Ascendant]
Your speed improves even farther.
Prerequisites:
-Flash Step
Benefits: Whenever an opponent fails a level check against your flash step, they are treated as flat footed against your next attack.

[imp_fireball]

Improved Flash Step [Ascendant]
Your speed improves even farther.
Prerequisites:
-Flash Step
Benefits: Whenever an opponent fails a level check against your flash step, they are treated as flat footed against your next attack.

IDEA: They can no longer make AoOs against you for 1d4 rounds. Or they are dazed/prone/etc.

Because simply being flatfooted might not be enough to want to take the feat. Sound good?

Also, you should make those feats require BAB instead of ECL because ECL is HD + LA + Class Level(s), so I could be a second level Ogre fighter and take one of those ECL 8 feats (this Ogre fighter 2 would have BAB +5 and be able to adventure with a 4th level party). Alternatively, you could make them require fighter levels unless you intend to hock these feats up as fighter bonus feats?

[prohoe]

I think this is enough .....
I do agree with you. Those are the most effective way

[Godskook]

IDEA: They can no longer make AoOs against you for 1d4 rounds. Or they are dazed/prone/etc.

Because simply being flatfooted might not be enough to want to take the feat. Sound good?

Actually, that one is meant more for rogues(although a fighter with a spare feat could synergize with power attack), especially now that I changed a restriction*. Maybe it does need some improving, but that sounds rather disassociated to me.

*Originally, these could only be taken as bonus feats, but I decided to do away with that. It seemed silly since it limited my design space with rogues, for the feat chain. Now, a rogue can take all these feats, and still have 1-2 spares, without multi-classing.

[Godskook]

Also, you should make those feats require BAB instead of ECL because ECL is HD + LA + Class Level(s), so I could be a second level Ogre fighter and take one of those ECL 8 feats (this Ogre fighter 2 would have BAB +5 and be able to adventure with a 4th level party). Alternatively, you could make them require fighter levels unless you intend to hock these feats up as fighter bonus feats?

No, that's wrong.

As a PC, an Ogre fighter 2 would be adventuring with a 8th level party.