[1E] Dragon breath weapon damage?

[ken-do-nim]

With the recent surge of talk about older editions, I thought I'd start a post on a rules topic on it.

It is unclear whether when dragons breathe they do their max hit points in damage or their current hit points in damage. Which do you do?

[nyjastul69]

I always ruled that it was current hp.

[Dogmantra]

With my knowledge of 1st edition limited entirely to the options given in the first post, I'd have to say their current HP. It makes sense for, as the dragon gets more and more beaten up, the breath weapon to do less damge, since the breather is more tired and can't get a good wind going.

Of course, if you believe some of the stories I've heard about 1e, the dragon's breath weapon should auto-kill everyone with no save (even if they weren't in the area of effect), destroy their souls so they can't be resurrected, come out of the game, cheat on each player's girl/boyfriend, punch them in the face, then steal their wallet. And DMs would be encouraged to send them at PCs at level one... no, earlier, during character creation.

[jiriku]

It was definitely current hit points. Beating on the dragon as fast as possible was highly advisable. And the breath weapon recharge mechanism was different, IIRC.

[Fortuna]

From what I am reading (I have the relavent rulebook on hand) it is 3/day and current hp.

[Jarawara]

Of course, if you believe some of the stories I've heard about 1e, the dragon's breath weapon should auto-kill everyone with no save (even if they weren't in the area of effect), destroy their souls so they can't be resurrected, come out of the game, cheat on each player's girl/boyfriend, punch them in the face, then steal their wallet. And DMs would be encouraged to send them at PCs at level one... no, earlier, during character creation.

Huh. I've been playing since 1e (AD&D) was newly introduced to the D&D community, and I don't remember dragon's breath as being so totally uber-feared.

So, tell us some of the stories you've heard!! We always like story-time!

[ken-do-nim]

From what I am reading (I have the relavent rulebook on hand) it is 3/day and current hp.

Here's what the Monster Manual says:

Dragons can attack by claw/bite or breath weapon. The latter can be used
but three times per day, maximum. If a choice is possible roll percentile
dice. Any score above 50% indicates the dragon will breathe. The breath
weapon causes damage equal to the dragon's hit points (half that amount
if a saving throw is made) on each and every creature hit by the breath
weapon. Cone shaped breath weapons are %" diameter at point of origin.

Doesn't say either way. Now let's look at OD&D:

Hit Dice: The number of dice is an indication of the size of the creature. Most will fall in the middle, but 20% will be small and 20% very large.The value of the hit dice, as well as the value of the breath weapon, will be subject to the maturity of the Dragon.

That doesn't help.

Moldvay Basic is very clear on the point though and it says use current hp.

[hamlet]

Have always used max hit points. Why? Couldn't say, other than it's unsatisfying for a dragon to breath fire on an opponent for 3 hp damage because the players with their magic weaopns and spells have just pasted the thing in half a round.

I've always preferred AD&D 2e dragons in some ways, and breath weapon damage was one of those ways. More deadly? Certianly. But definately clearer.

[Dogmantra]

Huh. I've been playing since 1e (AD&D) was newly introduced to the D&D community, and I don't remember dragon's breath as being so totally uber-feared.

So, tell us some of the stories you've heard!! We always like story-time!

They're more stories about DMs being more brutal and the rules less forgiving than about Dragons' breath weapons. :smalltongue:

[ken-do-nim]

I've always preferred AD&D 2e dragons in some ways, and breath weapon damage was one of those ways. More deadly? Certianly. But definately clearer.

Agreed. I think that 1E dragons are too weak, 3.5 dragons are too strong, and 2E dragons are just right.

[ken-do-nim]

Huh. I've been playing since 1e (AD&D) was newly introduced to the D&D community, and I don't remember dragon's breath as being so totally uber-feared.

So, tell us some of the stories you've heard!! We always like story-time!

Storytime, okay. High level party, but the dragon sees them coming. This is a big ancient red baddie, so it casts haste on itself and then invisibility. It opens the battle with a surprise round and I let it get 2 breaths off before the first initiative roll. It won initiative. TPK.

[LibraryOgre]

Storytime, okay. High level party, but the dragon sees them coming. This is a big ancient red baddie, so it casts haste on itself and then invisibility. It opens the battle with a surprise round and I let it get 2 breaths off before the first initiative roll. It won initiative. TPK.

...except the monk, who's standing there screaming "What the **** was that" at the top of his lungs. ;-)

[JonestheSpy]

I'm pretty sure it was max hit points. I seem to remember an example of a combat vs. dragon in the first edition Monster Manual that involved a bunch of characters being fried after they'd taken a suprise attack against it.

I agree with the '1st edition too weak/3rd too strong' hypothesis. Luckily, it's pretty easy to fix the 3rd edition dragons - just don't use the last couple of age categories.

One of my favorite ideas for modifying 1st edition dragons was ruling that they could breath the equivalent of their max hit points x3 in damage per day, with never more than their full hit points at one time. It wolud allow a dragon to polish off an army quite eiasily by dividing their breath weapon into multiple 10hp damage bursts, without making them uberdeadly to players.

[Matthew]

I figure it is the total hit points of the dragon, connecting its offensive with its defensive power.