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View Full Version : So I need to replace a spell.



Vizzerdrix
2009-10-31, 08:22 AM
A quick rundown: The party just leveled up right before a fight with the BBEG. I grabbed Shivering Touch (level 3, Frostburn) as my first 3rd level spell and one shotted the BBEG.

I honestly feel a bit bad for doing this, and wish to change my spell out to something less powerful, but just as useful (also to prevent any sort of power creep that I fear would wreck the other two party members).

I'm playing a UA Generic (arcane) caster, so while lists of good spells can be found for arcane spells (I have Solo's bookmarked), I can also select from the Druid and Cleric lists.

Basically, I need help finding a solid, less broken spell so the DM doesn't eat my friends. Help please? :smallfrown:

Boci
2009-10-31, 08:25 AM
House rule that shivering touch cannot lower dexterity below 1? I always liked ray of exhaustion for a third level spell. Auto fatigue and ranged touch, although at higher levels becoming immune isn't so hard.

bosssmiley
2009-10-31, 08:29 AM
Stinking cloud? Slow? Hold person?

The latter two have a similar effect to Shivering Touch, but are notably less one-shotty.

Waylor
2009-10-31, 08:33 AM
Iron bands? (SpC) (Not sure about the english name)

Lvl 3

Onlye Large or smaller targets (not sure about that, maybe its medium or smaller)

Reflex save or inmobilized
Even if succesful, entangled

Each round he can make a Strength (CD 20) or Escape Artist (Same CD) to break the spell

Powerfull, but not broken, also its a loose/loose

Another option:

¿Bad luck? ¿SpC? no idea about this one :S

Target creature makes a will save, if failure, it'll roll twice always and pick worst result, 1 round/lvl

Love that one :P Iron bands is better against caster, Bad luck againt melees, i always pick both.

Milskidasith
2009-10-31, 09:06 AM
Iron Bands is still a one shot on a failed save, since you can just CDG the guy.

Boci
2009-10-31, 09:07 AM
Iron Bands is still a one shot on a failed save, since you can just CDG the guy.

But it allows a save. Shivering touch doesn't.

valadil
2009-10-31, 10:04 AM
Iron Bands is still a one shot on a failed save, since you can just CDG the guy.

But someone else will CDG so you can share the glory. Being a broken caster isn't as bad when the rest of the part can still feel good about themselves.

Douglas
2009-10-31, 10:54 AM
Iron Bands is still a one shot on a failed save, since you can just CDG the guy.
No, it doesn't. "Immobilized" is not the same thing as "helpless", and only the latter allows a CDG. If the target fails the save he's stuck in that spot and can't leave it by normal movement, but he's not unable to defend himself.

Boci
2009-10-31, 10:59 AM
No, it doesn't. "Immobilized" is not the same thing as "helpless", and only the latter allows a CDG. If the target fails the save he's stuck in that spot and can't leave it by normal movement, but he's not unable to defend himself.

Doesn't the spell state that an immobolozed creature is helpless, since immobilized only became a condition in ToM?

AmberVael
2009-10-31, 11:16 AM
The spell doesn't state anything like that. Indeed, it is frustratingly vague about what the spell means.

The exact wording is:

The victim must succeed on a Reflex save or be immobilized and thus unable to move. If the saving throw succeeds, the victim is only partially trapped by the bands, and is entangled.

My assumption is that it would make them helpless, as that is really the only condition it might fall under. Its a spell of around the same level as Hold Person, which allows someone to be Paralyzed... so it doesn't seem like a big stretch.

But there's almost no way you can literally settle what it does by RAW, unless I'm missing something. It is greatly up for interpretation.

What we do know is that they can't move. If we take it completely literally, it means they can't really take move actions (or rather, they can't take a normal move action that allows them to move) and are thus stuck in one square. But I'm pretty sure it is at least referring to the Bound condition within Helpless.

Glimbur
2009-10-31, 11:33 AM
Haste is a nice third level spell to take if you want to share the power with your team mates.

KillianHawkeye
2009-10-31, 11:49 AM
To solve this problem you need to play casters as WotC intended. Switch to fireball! :smallamused::smallsigh:

Triaxx
2009-10-31, 12:40 PM
Maximised magic missile?

Sleet Storm is good for ground control, not much use for flyers except if you're hiding in it.

Fizban
2009-10-31, 01:22 PM
Ray of Dizziness? Single target slow with a ranged touch instead of a save, stops most big things from full attacking you into oblivion unless they have pounce, but still allows iconic stuff like spells and breath weapons so the fight isn't quite over yet.

AstralFire
2009-10-31, 01:28 PM
I think most people here do this anyway, but I still feel it's worth praising you for knowing how to play D&D socially and not being a jerk. :)

taltamir
2009-10-31, 01:37 PM
But it allows a save. Shivering touch doesn't.

also, large creatures are immune to it.


Doesn't the spell state that an immobolozed creature is helpless, since immobilized only became a condition in ToM?

Yes the spell explicitly states that creatures immobilized by it are helpless until they break free.

AmberVael
2009-10-31, 01:42 PM
Yes the spell explicitly states that creatures immobilized by it are helpless until they break free.

Either you're reading a different spell, or I'm missing something, because it doesn't say anything about being helpless at all (See my quote above).

Boci
2009-10-31, 02:04 PM
Either you're reading a different spell, or I'm missing something, because it doesn't say anything about being helpless at all (See my quote above).

Bands of steel, Complete Arcane, page 98-99.

taltamir
2009-10-31, 02:07 PM
Bands of steel, Complete Arcane, page 98-99.
Or spell compendium p24


Either you're reading a different spell, or I'm missing something, because it doesn't say anything about being helpless at all (See my quote above).

you are correct, it says "immobilized"

Looking through the SRD that word comes only a few times

If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)

Simply seeing the enspelled text is not sufficient to trigger the spell; the subject must deliberately read it. The target is entitled to a save to evade the snake’s strike. If it succeeds, the sepia snake dissipates in a flash of brown light accompanied by a puff of dun-colored smoke and a loud noise. If the target fails its save, it is engulfed in a shimmering amber field of force and immobilized until released, either at your command or when 1d4 days + one day per caster level have elapsed.

While trapped in the amber field of force, the subject does not age, breathe, grow hungry, sleep, or regain spells. It is preserved in a state of suspended animation, unaware of its surroundings. It can be damaged by outside forces (and perhaps even killed), since the field provides no protection against physical injury. However, a dying subject does not lose hit points or become stable until the spell ends.

And then it also appears in 4 classes (to denote they lose their dodging when immobilized)

However, there is something that clarifies it:


Helpless Defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.

Regular Attack
A helpless character takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks.

A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).


Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

Boci
2009-10-31, 02:10 PM
Or spell compendium p24
you are correct, it says "immobilized"

Well then clearly the spell compendium was typo, since the Complete arcane one made perfect sense.

taltamir
2009-10-31, 02:11 PM
Well then clearly the spell compendium was typo, since the Complete arcane one made perfect sense.

both of them say immobilized

however:

A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.

The spell immobilizes by binding... I'd say that counts as helpless.
Also, coup de grace isn't auto kill, it is auto crit with a fort save... only against critable opponents.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-31, 02:14 PM
The DC is high enough that it might as well be one.

The thing about the SpC version is that it says immobilized without clarification, which as per ToM means unable to move out of the square. The CArc version clarifies that it doesn't mean general immobilization, and used it merely as a synonym for helpless.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-31, 06:59 PM
I think most people here do this anyway, but I still feel it's worth praising you for knowing how to play D&D socially and not being a jerk. :)

Yep, that's me. The responsible munchkin.
I'm still keeping my fell drain magic missile though

Sorry I haven't responded. Halloween stuff going on ^_^. I'll take a look at all the wonderful suggestions later tonight. any good options from the divine sides?

Gametime
2009-11-01, 11:12 PM
Spell Compendium updates spells found in Complete Arcane. Where the descriptions disagree, it is the equivalent of errata. (Newer products overrule former.)

Since the SpC description doesn't say helpless, it can be assumed that the spell was intentionally changed. As for the condition "immobilized" being ambiguous, its effects are reasonably clear - "unable to move".

If you think that makes the spell too weak, I don't think the CA version is overpowering, but RAW it does not cause helplessness.

taltamir
2009-11-01, 11:42 PM
Spell Compendium updates spells found in Complete Arcane. Where the descriptions disagree, it is the equivalent of errata. (Newer products overrule former.)

Since the SpC description doesn't say helpless, it can be assumed that the spell was intentionally changed. As for the condition "immobilized" being ambiguous, its effects are reasonably clear - "unable to move".

If you think that makes the spell too weak, I don't think the CA version is overpowering, but RAW it does not cause helplessness.

i looked over BOTH spells and neither says "helpless". Both say "immobilize", both say bind, and the description of "helpless" indicates that a creature immobilized in this manner is helpless.

Vizzerdrix
2009-11-02, 11:01 AM
Stinking cloud, Slow, Hold person, Iron bands, Bad luck, Haste, fireball, Sleet Storm, Ray of Dizziness.

Fireball is out. I hate that spell and we are mostly in city.
hold person is too limited, so is Iron bands (but both seem nice).
Stinking cloud, ray of Dizziness and slow look good to me. I'll hold onto those for consideration.
Also, Curse is a 3rd level divine spell. I could swap for that. It is close to ST, but with a bit more versatility for the cost of some cheese.

I am a bit heavy on Enchantment and Necromancy in this build. not that it matters, I'm just save heavy is all and should look into that.

Thanks to everyone so far. I'm more than open to more ideas. Game is this Thursday though.

taltamir
2009-11-02, 01:29 PM
Stinking cloud, Slow, Hold person, Iron bands, Bad luck, Haste, fireball, Sleet Storm, Ray of Dizziness.

Fireball is out. I hate that spell and we are mostly in city.
hold person is too limited, so is Iron bands (but both seem nice).
Stinking cloud, ray of Dizziness and slow look good to me. I'll hold onto those for consideration.
Also, Curse is a 3rd level divine spell. I could swap for that. It is close to ST, but with a bit more versatility for the cost of some cheese.

I am a bit heavy on Enchantment and Necromancy in this build. not that it matters, I'm just save heavy is all and should look into that.

Thanks to everyone so far. I'm more than open to more ideas. Game is this Thursday though.

my experience in a city is that large area effect spells like sleet storm or stinking cloud cannot be placed to hit your enemies and not your friends as well...
Slow and Haste are phenomenal in that they allow you to just designate targets... also haste is one of the best spells in the game.

jiriku
2009-11-02, 02:30 PM
If you don't have haste, it is totally worthwhile to pick that up. It's literally useful in every single combat and every single situation. It's quite likely that casting haste will be a useful and effective action in every single combat encounter you ever play for your character's entire career.

Draz74
2009-11-02, 02:56 PM
Comparing Haste and Slow, I've found Haste to be more effective, but Slow to be more fun (when it works).

And while Haste is great throughout the mid-game, it loses power at high levels when magic items that grant the same effect become abundant.

Bestow Curse (divine version) is also a good option; I approve. Ray of Exhaustion is decent, but slightly weak unless you combo it with other STR/DEX penalizers.

subject42
2009-11-02, 03:08 PM
Isn't Greater Mighty Wallop 3rd level? It can be a lot of fun if you have a hammer fighter in your party.

ericgrau
2009-11-02, 06:26 PM
Ya, shivering touch is classic brokenage. There are dozens of excellent 3rd level spells. Do a search and find a spell list. My latest mage uses haste and sleet storm, and both are cool.

taltamir
2009-11-02, 07:13 PM
Comparing Haste and Slow, I've found Haste to be more effective, but Slow to be more fun (when it works).

And while Haste is great throughout the mid-game, it loses power at high levels when magic items that grant the same effect become abundant.

Bestow Curse (divine version) is also a good option; I approve. Ray of Exhaustion is decent, but slightly weak unless you combo it with other STR/DEX penalizers.

having every single party member own a magic item that grants haste does not mean haste loses its power, it just means you personally don't have to cast it anymore. It is still one of the single most useful spells in the game.