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Test Of Spite
2009-11-01, 02:08 AM
This is a compendium of the recent threads on the topic, and will also offer a small collection of the prevailing thoughts on the matter as well as hopefully a nice way to do research. As such, we will be collecting match notes, data in general, and other tidbits here.

I am fairly well-known for being devoutly pro-caster, but I will endeavor to be completely objective in cataloging information. If you feel I have missed a thread, or know a good guide that you feel merits inclusion in the discussion over-all, please post it! I'm trying to make this as inclusive as I possibly can. After all, I am a modron.

Post 1:
Admission of bias, denial of human fallibility ;)

Post 2:
Threads and summaries

Post 3:
Prevailing opinions

Test Of Spite
2009-11-01, 02:13 AM
Recent:

1: Fighters! Wizards! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129672)
This is the raging debate about what, if anything, can be shown in arena-style combat between a fighter of 20th level and a wizard of 13th level.
2: Wizards! Fighters! Other Party Members! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129745)
This is a discussion of a different approach, originally intended as a thought experiment. However.....

3: F-ungeon Run (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130180)
Represents an attempt to make it more concrete.
4: Fighter v. Wizard Improv Theater (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129689)
Represents a different take on comedy improv involving a fighter 20 trying to murderboat a wizard 13.


Famous:
Treantmonk's Guide to play a minor Deity (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0)
This comes up a lot, and the new version on BG is almost hilariously comprehensive. It talks about how wizards work, which I found mind-blowing the first time I read it.
Tiers: What and Huh? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0)
I'm still not sure how I feel about this, but I'm sure people are throwing around the tier ranking of fighter as evidence of prevailing community opinion. This may, therefore, be useful.
Most Current Fighter Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870606/The_Fighters_Handbook__2007)
I thought this was a nice refresher, though broken gleemax has broken it. Never actually explains dungeoncrasher that I saw, which is painful but okay. You can look that one up, neh? :)

Test Of Spite
2009-11-01, 02:14 AM
Awaiting opinion aggregation.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-01, 02:26 AM
CR calculator indicates that a level 20 fighter should have no trouble taking down a level 13 wizard, multiple times per day. I have found this not to be the case.

AgentPaper
2009-11-01, 02:38 AM
Another useful matchup might be a level 20 commoner against, say, a level 18 fighter. Full WBL, of course.

Also: The same level 13 wizard against a level 20 fighter, both with level 13 WBL.

Test Of Spite
2009-11-01, 02:43 AM
Anybody got a kicking fighter guide? I can't find a handbook for fighter, just a bunch of builds everyone already knows.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-01, 02:55 AM
Anybody got a kicking fighter guide? I can't find a handbook for fighter, just a bunch of builds everyone already knows.

Only fighter guide I know of. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870606/The_Fighters_Handbook__2007)

Oslecamo
2009-11-01, 07:30 AM
CR calculator indicates that a level 20 fighter should have no trouble taking down a level 13 wizard, multiple times per day. I have found this not to be the case.

So what? From all the data we have wizards need several days to take down a single oponent, between all the scrying, crafting and hiding in extraplanar spaces! In any campaign you tried to play such a wizard, there would be enough time for the universe to colapse due to entropy if the rest of the party waited for the wizard to do whatever he wants.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-01, 07:56 AM
Is there a link to Logicninja's guide?

Eldariel
2009-11-01, 08:20 AM
So what? From all the data we have wizards need several days to take down a single oponent, between all the scrying, crafting and hiding in extraplanar spaces! In any campaign you tried to play such a wizard, there would be enough time for the universe to colapse due to entropy if the rest of the party waited for the wizard to do whatever he wants.

Except the Wizards run in these tests have had the capability to do it in couple of seconds. Scry'n'Die is used when you have a task to kill someone/there's a specific person you need dead. And it's most likely faster than going through whatever protection that person has the oldfashioned way.

Crafting obviously takes time, but "hiding in extraplanar spaces" doesn't take any more time than resting otherwise, and occasionally even less. Meh, I don't really see what your argument here is.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-01, 12:08 PM
So what? From all the data we have wizards need several days to take down a single oponent, between all the scrying, crafting and hiding in extraplanar spaces! In any campaign you tried to play such a wizard, there would be enough time for the universe to colapse due to entropy if the rest of the party waited for the wizard to do whatever he wants.

What is your problem? The wizards in the tests did not do that, nor has anyone advocated playing like that so far.

Logalmier
2009-11-01, 12:33 PM
Is there a link to Logicninja's guide?

I has Linky. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)

Doc Roc
2009-11-01, 08:26 PM
Excellent! Thank you!

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-04, 01:29 AM
Yeah, that's the one. I always have trouble finding Logicninja's guide.