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Johel
2009-11-01, 09:23 AM
A process that should potentially grant you unlimited wishes as soon as you hit the level 13th with a Wizard, and this for 1.100 XP and 9.925 gp.

This has probably already been covered by Emperor Tippy or another rule specialist but I'm curious to know if it's a valid interpretation :

Sources that will be used :
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

Setting :
You are a 13th level character, full Wizard, standard WBL, Intelligence 19, Wisdom 12, Charisma 12.
Nothing cheesy so far. You're a happy wizard since, during your last adventure, you got your hands on a library of old books AND a scroll of "Gate" (8.825 gp).
Because you're both a genius and a wise man, you don't want to waste that scroll and so, you study various ways to maximize its use.
You finally devise a plan and put it in action.

Step 1 : Call an Angel and chop his arm.
Use a scroll to cast "Gate" and call a specific Solar.
Since his HD aren't more than twice yours, you can command him to perform a service for you and he can't refuse as long as it can be accomplish in 13 rounds (your CL).
You ask the Solar to cut off his arm/hand/ear/anything he can regenerate and to give it to you. Sure, it's painful but not more than fighting for you and certainly less risky. The request is odd but he should go with it.

Step 2 : Dr Frankenstein and Little Albert
You got yourself a fine piece of Solar.
Now, cast "Gentle Repose" on it. You don't want it to rot, it's precious !!
Gather the material needed to create a 11HD Simulacrum. Since your CL is 13 and the Solar Angel has "only" 22 HD, you can create such Simulacrum.
Cut a small bit of flesh from the Solar's piece, put it in the snow/ice and cast "Simulacrum" on it. It costs you 1.100 XP and 1.100 gp of powdered ruby.
A 11HD Solar Angel should appear, utterly loyal to you, with all his spell-like abilities. Let's call him "Albert" or "A"

Step 3 : Dr Albert and Little Bernard
Spell-like abilities don't require material components nor XP components.
A Solar Angel can cast "Wish" once a day as a spell-like ability.
"Wish" allows the caster to duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
Simulacrum is a 7th level wizard spell.
Albert can cast "Wish" as a spell-like ability to emulate "Simulacrum" without any material or XP components.
We cut another small bit of flesh from the orginal Solar's piece and put it in snow/ice and then let Albert cast "Wish" as a spell-like ability to emulate "Simulacrum".
Another 11HD Solar Angel should appear, utterly loyal to you, with all his spell-like abilities. Let's call him "Bernard" or "B"

Step 4 : World Domination ?
From that point, we can potentially create a large number of 11HD Solar Angels, up until we run out of flesh from the original Solar. Let's say we produce 100 of them. This can be done in less than 1 month.
Granted, they aren't as powerful as the original but are still individually more powerful than yourself.
With 100 wishes / a day, you can quickly increase your personal fortune and power while researching other interesting creatures to copy.
If you have some XP to waste, you can also call another Solar Angel and start again.

Potential problems or limits :
The key here is the way "Wish", used as a spell-like ability, can be abused.
Should there be restriction on XP components, the whole process would be worthless.

What I ask :
Find the loopholes, correct the errors, perfection the process. The goal is to get the "Simulacrum Solar chain" for as cheap as possible, as early as possible in a wizard's career, with no chance of failure.
TheCountAlucard : Have the Solar wish for a scroll of simulacrum (keyed to a Solar, of course) instead of casting wish to duplicate simulacrum himself. This way, the wizard is directly in command of all simulacrums
mostlyharmful : Call an Effrit instead of a Solar. This way, you get thrice as many wishes per day and you spare 600 gp and 100 XP.

Melamoto
2009-11-01, 09:36 AM
It seems perfectly done to me. The only problem is being able to get a Scroll of Gate on demand, even with the money. Something requiring a 17th level character to create isn't exactly going to be found in Ye Olde Common Magic Shoppe.

hamishspence
2009-11-01, 09:37 AM
I'd say infinite wishes a day- even 100 wishes a day- is plenty.

Does it really need to be cheaper than that?

TheCountAlucard
2009-11-01, 09:48 AM
Well, you can create magic items with Wish - and since it's a spell-like ability, it costs no extra XP to do so, so why not cut out the middleman (i.e., the solar's arm) and have the Solar wish for a scroll of simulacrum (keyed to a Solar, of course)? Doesn't change the cost or anything, but still something.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-01, 10:16 AM
I know a way to cut out gate completely and save your character 8kgp:

Eschew Materials.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-01, 10:25 AM
I know a way to cut out gate completely and save your character 8kgp:

Eschew Materials.

Eschew Materials [General]
Benefit

You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-01, 10:29 AM
Eschew Materials [General]
Benefit

You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.

Solar arms have no material cost.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-01, 10:29 AM
Eschew Materials [General]
Benefit

You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.Exactly. Thanks for illustrating why it works, though I'm not sure why you needed to...

The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-01, 10:32 AM
Exactly. Thanks for illustrating why it works, though I'm not sure why you needed to...

Then I'm confused here. How exactly are you cutting anything out?

I see two prices listed (aside from the total): 8,825 GP and 1,100 GP for Gate and Simulacrum respectively, so please elaborate.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-01, 10:38 AM
It doesn't save money but time: you no longer need the original Solar after making the first.

charl
2009-11-01, 10:38 AM
Then I'm confused here. How exactly are you cutting anything out?

I see two prices listed (aside from the total): 8,825 GP and 1,100 GP for Gate and Simulacrum respectively, so please elaborate.

The feat eliminates the need to cast Gate, since you no longer need to acquire a Solar arm (the arm is covered by the feat, as it has no material value, so you don't need to have it around when making your simulacrum). You still need to pay for the rubies though.

Johel
2009-11-01, 10:39 AM
Well, you can create magic items with Wish - and since it's a spell-like ability, it costs no extra XP to do so, so why not cut out the middleman (i.e., the solar's arm) and have the Solar wish for a scroll of simulacrum (keyed to a Solar, of course)? Doesn't change the cost or anything, but still something.

I like it. :smallsmile:
That's also safer, as killing one of the pseudo-solars wouldn't result in a massive disturbance in the chain of command.
Used for other magical items (ex : Staffs), it can potentially make the personal casting capacity of the wizard skyrocket.

Lycanthromancer :
That's technically correct...
Though by that token, a wizard with the right feat could just make simulacrum of a Solar without even the slightest connection to said Solar.
It's correct by RAW but it feels wrong somehow.
Note that then, we could also have the pseudo-Solar creates thousands of pseudo-Solar without sample from the original creature. So, it would just be a matter of reaching 13th level and learning Simulacrum, then the world is yours... :smallamused:

The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-01, 10:41 AM
:smallsigh: RAW sometimes, I swear.

I concede 'defeat'. (I also hate not being able to think of good words to use).

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-01, 10:44 AM
:smallsigh: RAW sometimes, I swear.

I concede 'defeat'. (I also hate not being able to think of good words to use).

I dunno. Defeat has a nice ring to it. :smallsmile:

[edit] Also, you only need to be 11th level and use a scroll of simulacrum. Use Craft checks to increase the value of the material components (can increase their value by a factor of 3, with the appropriate check) and you're good to go.

If you have access to high UMD checks, you can do this even earlier.

Baron Corm
2009-11-01, 10:55 AM
and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD

I would rule that since solars have all of their powers as a 22 HD being, one with 11 HD would be significantly powered down, and at the very least wouldn't have its wish spell. This isn't just making a call; I don't think RAW says anything about what "appropriate" would be for a "powered down" creature, and this is the most reasonable assumption.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-01, 10:57 AM
Um, there are low HD creatures with 9th level spells. Disjunction is CR 11 after all (Adamantine horror golem has it at will).

Johel
2009-11-01, 11:15 AM
Um, there are low HD creatures with 9th level spells. Disjunction is CR 11 after all (Adamantine horror golem has it at will).

Yep.
I had thought about the whole "then the pseudo-Solar will lose some of his spells" but since they are spell-like abilities and aren't linked to the HD, the Solar is fine.

Let's illustrate with examples :
The Imp, 3HD,
Spell-like ability with CL 6th, with a weekly "Commune" casted at CL 12th.
Ogre Mage, 5HD,
Spell-like ability with CL 9th,
Efreeti, 10HD
Spell-like ability with CL 12th,
Djinni, 7HD
Spell-like ability with CL 20th,

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-01, 11:18 AM
Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm), 6 HD, with both etherealness and astral projection, both CL 20 level 9 spells, and both are at will.

Johel
2009-11-01, 11:21 AM
---EDITED----
Error of manipulation.
I switch the "Quote" and "Edit" buttons

Eldariel
2009-11-01, 11:32 AM
Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightmare.htm), 6 HD, with both etherealness and astral projection, both CL 20 level 9 spells, and both are at will.

Nightmares are my favoritest mounts ever, available through Lesser Planar Binding. Being able to start with Astral Projection shenanigans a couple of levels early along with just...ignore most opponents is friggin' awesome. And they are very servicable otherwise too; the Concealment in particular is awesome.

A level 11 Gish can Bind one, have the full set of Mounted Combat feats and enough BAB to make a Quickened True Strike full PA Spirited Charge extremely painful.

Yukitsu
2009-11-01, 11:36 AM
Old trick. I prefer using caster level buffs and having simulacrums of Vecna at 13, but whatever floats your boat.

ericgrau
2009-11-01, 01:06 PM
Chopping off one's arm counts sounds like the "or more involved" clause of gate, which would involve offering something in fair trade. The 1 round/level seems to expect fighting, breaking down a door, or w/e. Self mutilation sounds "more involved".

Then again this is the tippyverse.

Tanaric
2009-11-01, 01:07 PM
When one can regenerate one's body parts on a whim, "reasonable" takes on a different meaning.

ericgrau
2009-11-01, 01:11 PM
Solars have regeneration? <checks> Wow, what don't they have? Okay, nevermind then.

Gralamin
2009-11-01, 01:24 PM
Solars have regeneration? <checks> Wow, what don't they have? Okay, nevermind then.

I suppose there is still the case that as part of the solar body died when it was chopped off, it may (or may not) automatically disperse into "Stuff Celestia is made out of" and go there, despite being a calling spell. However, what happens to Outsiders when they die is probably one of the most inconsistent parts of 3.5 anyway. Probably, by virtue of calling, there is a reasonable chance that this still works.

Brendan
2009-11-01, 02:17 PM
The Solar part is not a material component. It is a focus and, if it is made of celestial essence, it is preceous. Some wizard must want it to leech out the essence or just have it on the wall somewhere. It is worth more than 1 GP.
You have a good plan, but, for example, were I to try it, my DM would have some god come down and smite me or just have the finger or ear or whatever explode.

Gralamin
2009-11-01, 02:18 PM
The Solar part is not a material component. It is a focus and, if it is made of celestial essence, it is preceous. Some wizard must want it to leech out the essence or just have it on the wall somewhere. It is worth more than 1 GP.
You have a good plan, but, for example, were I to try it, my DM would have some god come down and smite me or just have the finger or ear or whatever explode.

Incorrect. It is listed as a material component in the spell, and thus is a material component, not a focus.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-01, 02:38 PM
It's much cheaper to just make it an Efreeti Simulacrum, gets you three times the payback as well. Why make an 11HD one when you can get three times the milage from a 5HD Simulacrum?

Set
2009-11-01, 02:39 PM
It might be politer to ask for fingernail clippings or some downfeathers from the wings (or hair, if this particular Solar has hair, the art depicts them as bald, but the flavor text doesn't say they can't have magnificent flowing manes, or even beards, for those Solars in service to Moradin), rather than asking the Solar to hack off a limb.

And I've never understood how Simulacra was supposed to work. Infinite armies of dragons, just by dismantling a suit of dragonhide leather? Yes, please. At least with dragons you have lower HD versions to adjudicate what a half-HD version of the 'donor' would have for abilities, but what sort of powers does a 5 HD Efreeti have, or an 11 HD Solar? No clue. Monsters just aren't designed to play well with this spell.

Johel
2009-11-01, 02:47 PM
The Solar part is not a material component. It is a focus and, if it is made of celestial essence, it is preceous. Some wizard must want it to leech out the essence or just have it on the wall somewhere. It is worth more than 1 GP.
You have a good plan, but, for example, were I to try it, my DM would have some god come down and smite me or just have the finger or ear or whatever explode.

According to Simulacrum, it's a material component. But either way, it's all the same, the fact that it's a SLA means no component or focus at all :

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

I like the argument about the value of the Solar body part. It's true that this kind of "exotic" trophy should be worth something.

As for the DM issue, well, like other threads here, it's more of thought exercise than a in-game tactic. I don't plan to use it.


It's much cheaper to just make it an Efreeti Simulacrum, gets you three times the payback as well. Why make an 11HD one when you can get three times the milage from a 5HD Simulacrum?

Because the minimum XP cost for the initial Simulacrum is 1.000 XP.
Also, Wish isn't the only thing we are interested here : Solars make increadible bodyguards and have tons of at-will utility SLA.
Better spend 1.100 XP for a 11HD bodyguard + wishes than 1.000 XP for a 5HD 3-wishes-a-day that can't do anything else useful.

ericgrau
2009-11-01, 02:50 PM
Eh just have the DM guestimate which special abilities remain. Maybe use a lesser angel as a guideline, or flat-out make the created creature a lesser angel.

The xp cost helps balance things, it seems. Almost like taking a piece of yourself and splitting it into more creatures to fight along side you.

Baron Corm
2009-11-01, 02:59 PM
Monsters with low HD at "full power" might have high level spells, but that has nothing to do with halving the power of a solar.

There's definitely a precedent for higher-HD creatures having better SLAs as a general trend, especially among outsiders. The SLAs are directly tied to the magicalness of the outsider's nature, which is determined by its HD. I'm speaking more about evil outsiders than good ones, because I don't know the good ones as well, but I'd think the same thing would apply. It's really a situation where you could interpret it either way, but you would have to look at it in an even more slanted light than the things Pun-Pun exploits, because at least he is taking literal translations, and this just isn't stated.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-01, 03:32 PM
The SLAs are directly tied to the magicalness of the outsider's nature, which is determined by its HD...... . It's really a situation where you could interpret it either way.

Except the spell Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) is very clear exactly what you get and what you lose in copying something, your not far off on a nice houserule to kill this stuff off but it is RAW and I have to figure at least partially RAI since there's just nothing else much that you could use that spell for.


Because the minimum XP cost for the initial Simulacrum is 1.000 XP.
Also, Wish isn't the only thing we are interested here : Solars make increadible bodyguards and have tons of at-will utility SLA.
Better spend 1.100 XP for a 11HD bodyguard + wishes than 1.000 XP for a 5HD 3-wishes-a-day that can't do anything else useful.

600gp and 100XP saving isn't nothing, plus the OP specifically was just using this solar copy for it's wish ability and if that's the case then it's not the most efficient way of going about it. And Wish 3/Day isn't useful enough?:smallconfused:

Johel
2009-11-01, 03:42 PM
100XP saving isn't nothing, plus the OP specifically was just using this solar copy for it's wish ability and if that's the case then it's not the most efficient way of going about it. And Wish 3/Day isn't useful enough?:smallconfused:

Well, I'm the OP, by the way :smalltongue:

The idea is indeed to get wishes at will, so I guess a Effrit is better for that than a Solar. Your simulacrum stock also increases faster that way. So... Yes, I'll edit the OP and add your suggestion.

But, once we get past the first Simulacrum, we can produce a nearly infinite amount of Solars/Effrits. The question becomes then if we just want wishes OR if we want servants with other useful SLA abilities. In other words, do we want infinite power over time or immediate flexibility and infinite power over (albeit longer) time ?

mostlyharmful
2009-11-01, 03:54 PM
Well, I'm the OP, by the way :smalltongue:

The idea is indeed to get wishes at will, so I guess a Effrit is better for that than a Solar. Your simulacrum stock also increases faster that way. So... Yes, I'll edit the OP and add your suggestion.

But, once we get past the first Simulacrum, we can produce a nearly infinite amount of Solars/Effrits. The question becomes then if we just want wishes OR if we want servants with other useful SLA abilities. In other words, do we want infinite power over time or immediate flexibility and infinite power over (albeit longer) time ?

Ok, sorry.:smallredface:

And why chose? Since it's faster and cheaper to get onto that track with an Efreeti just have that start pumping out Solar minions as well as other Efreeti on the first day?

Johel
2009-11-01, 04:05 PM
Ok, sorry.:smallredface:

And why chose? Since it's faster and cheaper to get onto that track with an Efreeti just have that start pumping out Solar minions as well as other Efreeti on the first day?

Somebody pointed the fact that, since SLA don't require any components, we could just ignore the part of the "Simulacrum" spell about getting a small part of the original.
That sounds against the spirit of the rule, for me, but that's RAW so yes, we could basically just duplicate ANY kind of creatures with a SLA "wish" that duplicates "Simulacrum". In that scenario, we don't have to choose, and just go with whatever our fantasy is : effrit, solar, balor, dragon, even cat if we wish...

As I said, that sounds REALLY cheesy. So, if we DO have to get a bodypart of the original creature to make a Simulacrum, making Effrits and Solars would require 2 "Gate" Spells instead of only one. A Simulacrum of Solar could cast Gate as a 9th cleric spell but an Effrit couldn't

The question for this is : do we need a part of the original creature to make a Simulacrum of it if we use a SLA "Wish" to duplicate the "Simulacrum" Spell ?

mostlyharmful
2009-11-01, 04:07 PM
The question for this is : do we need a part of the original creature to make a Simulacrum of it if we use a SLA "Wish" to duplicate the "Simulacrum" Spell ?

No.. but if you really really want to stick to the spirit of the law you could just use a wish to duplicate True Creation (8th level creation) which specifically states that what it creates can be used for a material component. It costs xp for every gp value of the produced material but since Wish is now a SLA... wheeeee... round and round and round we go....:smallbiggrin:

Johel
2009-11-01, 04:21 PM
No.. but if you really really want to stick to the spirit of the law you could just use a wish to duplicate True Creation (8th level creation) which specifically states that what it creates can be used for a material component. It costs xp for every gp value of the produced material but since Wish is now a SLA... wheeeee... round and round and round we go....:smallbiggrin:

...
"-I ask the Solar to use his "Wish" SLA to duplicate "True Creation" to create 1 kg of Effrit fingernails."
"-...What ?"
"-It's XP-free, by the way."

lsfreak
2009-11-01, 04:26 PM
...
"-I ask the Solar to use his "Wish" SLA to duplicate "True Creation" to create 1 kg of Effrit fingernails."
"-...What ?"
"-It's XP-free, by the way."

Even better is that it's not 1kg, but rather 20 cubic feet :eek:

mostlyharmful
2009-11-01, 05:10 PM
Even better is that it's not 1kg, but rather 20 cubic feet :eek:

That's a big pile of toenails.... :smallcool::smallbiggrin::smalltongue:


Once you start wanting free infinite wishies it gets a leeeettllle silly pretty quick don't it?

KillianHawkeye
2009-11-01, 06:19 PM
As long as you don't wind up with a horde of angry Efreeti come looking for their toenails.... :smallbiggrin:

mostlyharmful
2009-11-01, 06:22 PM
As long as you don't wind up with a horde of angry Efreeti come looking for their toenails.... :smallbiggrin:

wow. These Efreeti seem maybe a little on the petty side... I mean it wasn't even an actual Efreets toenail that was involved, more the Platoan Ideal of the Efreet toenail Form. :smallfrown:

Thurbane
2009-11-01, 08:33 PM
Does Gate work differently than Summon? Because "parts" of summoned monsters disappear at the spell expiration. Having never used Gate, I'm not sure of the exact ruling...

Yukitsu
2009-11-01, 08:43 PM
Yeah it's different. Gate is a calling effect, which is bringing a real entity to your plane. Summons are not actual entities being brought in from elsewhere, or if they are, changes to them are not permanent.

As an aside, I can't read this thread without somehow feeling it's at least partly my fault. :smallconfused:

Starbuck_II
2009-11-01, 08:43 PM
Does Gate work differently than Summon? Because "parts" of summoned monsters disappear at the spell expiration. Having never used Gate, I'm not sure of the exact ruling...

Summoned monsters aren't really there. They don't die: they returm to their pokeballs... i mean home.

Called monsters are actually there till spell lets them go. They can die forever.

Thurbane
2009-11-01, 08:44 PM
Gotcha. :smallwink:

Zen Master
2009-11-02, 06:18 AM
Solar arms have no material cost.

The fact that no cost is listen in PHB doesn't mean there is no cost. It most likely just means that it's very, very expensive. At least to me personally it makes perfect sense that the black market price for material components from near-divine beings is extremely prohibitive.

charl
2009-11-02, 06:49 AM
The fact that no cost is listen in PHB doesn't mean there is no cost. It most likely just means that it's very, very expensive. At least to me personally it makes perfect sense that the black market price for material components from near-divine beings is extremely prohibitive.

Except that the spell description should list that such an item costs money as it does in all other cases when specific materials are mentioned and do (in this case you need rubies, that have a listed value). Since it doesn't it is ultimately down to the GM, and it most certainly isn't RAI, but by RAW monster parts for the simulacrum don't cost anything, and are covered by eschew materials and really even a spell material pouch.

Darrin
2009-11-02, 06:51 AM
Somebody pointed the fact that, since SLA don't require any components, we could just ignore the part of the "Simulacrum" spell about getting a small part of the original.


Were you all aware that Simulacrum is available as a SLA on a 4HD outsider? Mirror Mephit, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits p. 208. You can summon any mephit with SMIV, although I'm not sure how SLA affects the casting time of Simulacrum... I think you need Lesser Planer Ally/Binding to do the 12-hour thing. So that's available around ECL 9 for Sor/Wiz, ECL 7 for Clerics.

bosssmiley
2009-11-02, 08:42 AM
Step 1 : Call an Angel and chop his arm.
Use a scroll to cast "Gate" and call a specific Solar.
Since his HD aren't more than twice yours, you can command him to perform a service for you and he can't refuse as long as it can be accomplish in 13 rounds (your CL).
You ask the Solar to cut off his arm/hand/ear/anything he can regenerate and to give it to you. Sure, it's painful but not more than fighting for you and certainly less risky. The request is odd but he should go with it.

The Solar (and the DM) have both traveled this particular road of cheese before and say "No". Not giving potential enemies cuttings from your body (hair, nail clippings, extremities) is one of the oldest rules of magic there is.

Nice thought experiment, but just chain bind some Efreeti if you want free wishes.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-02, 08:57 AM
The Solar (and the DM) have both traveled this particular road of cheese before and say "No". Not giving potential enemies cuttings from your body (hair, nail clippings, extremities) is one of the oldest rules of magic there is.

Nice thought experiment, but just chain bind some Efreeti if you want free wishes.

Enemies? Gate makes them not enemies.

Lamech
2009-11-02, 10:23 AM
Guys whats the whole gate thing? Dontcha know that your spell component pouch contains anything with out a listed cost? Major artifacts of good, newborn babies, hearts of the innocent, large statues carved out of ice and live spiders all included for the low low cost of five GP.

Also enslaving outsiders with wish is a bad idea. The day before you put your plan into action a solar decapitates you. 20th cleric, and spells like divination to see into the future?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-02, 10:25 AM
Newborn babies and virgin hearts have a listed price in the BoVD IIRC, so no dice.

Johel
2009-11-02, 10:35 AM
Also enslaving outsiders with wish is a bad idea. The day before you put your plan into action a solar decapitates you. 20th cleric, and spells like divination to see into the future?

Actually, we don't enslave them. We ask for their toenails (or arms, because I find it fun) and then let them go.
The only "slaves" are simulacrum that are wished in existence.

@bosssmiley :
Valid point for the "they won't. It's a BAB of magic : don't give personal items".
I guess we are back to Effrit binding, then. :smalltongue:

peacenlove
2009-11-02, 11:56 AM
Isn't simulacri (?) vulnerable to dispel magic? (Darn those clerics and their high caster level)
So maybe we should use a supernatural ability that mimics simulacrum (That Mirror Mephit could have taken the supernatural transformation feat or become an archmage with the spell like ability "simulacrum" and transform it with a feat for extra safety) :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2009-11-02, 12:13 PM
Isn't simulacri (?) vulnerable to dispel magic? (Darn those clerics and their high caster level)
So maybe we should use a supernatural ability that mimics simulacrum (That Mirror Mephit could have taken the supernatural transformation feat or become an archmage with the spell like ability "simulacrum" and transform it with a feat for extra safety) :smallbiggrin:

Nope. Dispel magic only works on permanent or lower duration spells.
Simulcrum is Duration: Instantaneous.

charl
2009-11-02, 12:29 PM
simulacri (?)

Simulacra.

Sims
2011-01-15, 12:13 PM
I know this thread is old/dead, but alot of things were'nt cleared up.

So does this mean the solar clone won't be able to cast wish? Also, i've read through, and what makes you so sure the efreeti clone will be able to cast 3 wishes.

Also, wouldn't it make more sense to ask the Solar for feathers?

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-15, 12:56 PM
I know this thread is old/dead, but alot of things were'nt cleared up...Then start a new thread. Thread necromancy is bad, m'kay?

averagejoe
2011-01-16, 12:38 AM
The Mod They Call Me: I don't know if it's bad, but it's against the forum rules. Thread locked.