Durkon's Prophecy

[mizzim]

Durkon's prophecy says that he will be going, finally, to the dwarven lands after he dies.

Finally. That means for the last time. so he can come and go to the dwarven lands, he'll just go back for the last time dead.

[Kish]

Durkon's prophecy says that he will be going, finally, to the dwarven lands after he dies.

Finally. That means for the last time. so he can come and go to the dwarven lands, he'll just go back for the last time dead.
It also doesn't say anything about him not being resurrected after he goes there.

Yes, unlike certain other death prophecies I could name, Durkon's death prophecy is full of loopholes. Whether he'll actually slip through one of them is another question, of course.

[Ancalagon]

Durkon's prophecy says that he will be going, finally, to the dwarven lands after he dies.

Finally. That means for the last time. so he can come and go to the dwarven lands, he'll just go back for the last time dead.

Basically it does not say those things. It says "yes, you will return home, but you will be dead". Nothing about "last time", nothing about "not getting resurrected".

"return" does not say "once" or "as last time".

[AlphaTheRed]

Another thing to remember is that the Oracle has little liking for the entire Order in the first place. Durkon's death is indeed full of loopholes, but a self-serving character like the Oracle is hardly going to go out of his way to point that out to the Good-aligned dwarf.

[Zevox]

Oh come on now. How can you really believe that the resolution to Durkon's prophecy will rest on semantical technicalities? Especially given the Oracle's prophecies have thus far all been perfectly straightforward.

I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't expect Durkon to return to his homeland before dying, or to die and then be resurrected and then return to his homeland. I expect him to die and return there as a corpse. Or, hopefully, an undead, given the drama potential that prediction has.

Zevox

[Linkavitch]

It says "You will return Posthumously." Personally, I don't recall a 'finally' or some other loophole that means he can come back multiple times. I do think that if he is raised there and leaves, he won't come back.

[Ancalagon]

I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't expect Durkon to return to his homeland before dying, or to die and then be resurrected and then return to his homeland. I expect him to die and return there as a corpse. Or, hopefully, an undead, given the drama potential that prediction has.

I still think the order will carry his dead body into the dwarven lands (as they think the last gates will be there). Durkon gets resurrected.
The rest we know from a certain other prophecy will follow. The comic concludes.

[derfenrirwolv]

Oh come on now. How can you really believe that the resolution to Durkon's prophecy will rest on semantical technicalities? Especially given the Oracle's prophecies have thus far all been perfectly straightforward.

Elan is not a horse.


Roys INTENT was to get the exact gate xykon would be at next. The oracle answered what he was asked, no more, no less (at roys insistance)


There's no reason why, if the comics plot is still in operation, the oots would NOT want to raise Durkon, and if they were close to the dwarven homelands thats where they'd head for some ressurection mojo.

[Zevox]

Elan is not a horse.
You mean Nale. And that's called a metaphor. Was still a perfectly straightforward one, though - and the only prophecy that was even metaphoric.


Roys INTENT was to get the exact gate xykon would be at next. The oracle answered what he was asked, no more, no less (at roys insistance)
Yes, Roy's fault there. And still a perfectly straightforward prophecy, Roy just screwed up and missed his obvious mistake. We readers could still tell exactly what it meant right from the outset.


There's no reason why, if the comics plot is still in operation, the oots would NOT want to raise Durkon, and if they were close to the dwarven homelands thats where they'd head for some ressurection mojo.
Which is one reason I and others think the outcome where Durkon becomes an undead via Xykon is a strong possibility to resolve the two prophecies around him.

Zevox

[Keris]

It says "You will return Posthumously." Personally, I don't recall a 'finally' or some other loophole that means he can come back multiple times. I do think that if he is raised there and leaves, he won't come back.
Check the comic again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) The prophesy is, and I quote:
:durkon:: How will I finally be returnin' ta me beloved dwarven homelands?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif: Posthumously.

See? There is a "finally" in there. Thus, "The final time Durkon returns to his homelands will be posthumously" could fit the given prophesy.

Of course, as previous posters have pointed out, this robs the dramatic potential of combining it with the OtOoPCs prophesy of "When next he [Durkon Thundershield] returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all". (Prophesy white-texted for those who haven't read the prequel books.)

[Equester]

Check the comic again. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) The prophesy is, and I quote:
:durkon:: How will I finally be returnin' ta me beloved dwarven homelands?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif: Posthumously.

See? There is a "finally" in there. Thus, "The final time Durkon returns to his homelands will be posthumously" could fit the given prophesy.

Of course, as previous posters have pointed out, this robs the dramatic potential of combining it with the OtOoPCs prophesy of "When next he [Durkon Thundershield] returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all". (Prophesy white-texted for those who haven't read the prequel books.)

that just leave to huge loophole, that he can return and go away multiple times before his final posthumously arrival :)

[Cracklord]

Considering myself an expert on this particular subject, there are quite a few loopholes. 'Finally' means, for the last time.

So he could go home, live there happily for a few hundred years, then die on the way back from the shop.

He could be resurrected once he gets home, and then never leave again.

And I have been looking at a few others that a re well within the words, or maybe just bend them a little, but they all feel a bit too contrived.

[Porthos]

Of course, in context, "finally" probably means "when at long last will I get home". :smallwink:

It's been said that it's the last refuge of a scoundrel to quote the dictionary, but what the hey. :smalltongue:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/finally


fi⋅nal⋅ly  [fahyn-l-ee] Show IPA
Use finally in a Sentence
–adverb
1. at the final point or moment; in the end.
2. in a final manner; conclusively or decisively.
3. at last; eventually; after considerable delay: After three tries, he finally passed his driving test.

Origin:
1325–75; ME; see final, -ly
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Related Words for : finally
at length, eventually, in conclusion, last, lastly

Sure, if one wishes to look for semantic loopholes, one can find them. But if one is doing a straightforward reading of the Q&A, then one interpetation is far more likely than the other.

Not certain, I'll agree. But still likely.

[Argeus]

As far as I recall, Durkon asked The Oracle when he can return home. The Oracle says "Posthumously". This should imply that, if my understanding of the word is correct, he will die for real before he could return to his homeland in a body bag.

Not to mention he's the only Cleric in OotS. Other clerics capable of resurrecting others are few and far between, as observed during the ordeal of Roy's resurrection. That is why I believe if Durkon dies, chances are close to nil anyone would be able to cast the spell to bring the dwarven dude back to life.

[gamerboy6000]

Of course, in context, "finally" probably means "when at long last will I get home". :smallwink:

It's been said that it's the last refuge of a scoundrel to quote the dictionary, but what the hey. :smalltongue:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/finally



Sure, if one wishes to look for semantic loopholes, one can find them. But if one is doing a straightforward reading of the Q&A, then one interpetation is far more likely than the other.

Not certain, I'll agree. But still likely.

Exactly what I was thinking.

[derfenrirwolv]

Which is one reason I and others think the outcome where Durkon becomes an undead via Xykon is a strong possibility to resolve the two prophecies around him.

Or the order could come rushing in ahead of Xykons undead hoards with durkons body in tow. Yes, the undead thing makes sense, but there are other possibilities.

[Kish]

As far as I recall, Durkon asked The Oracle when he can return home. The Oracle says "Posthumously". This should imply that, if my understanding of the word is correct, he will die for real before he could return to his homeland in a body bag.

Not to mention he's the only Cleric in OotS. Other clerics capable of resurrecting others are few and far between,

The priest who wrote the letter telling Durkon he could come back comes to mind. The Cliffport arc strongly suggests to my mind that any decently sized city is likely to have at least one level 9+ cleric in its temple.

[derfenrirwolv]

s far as I recall, Durkon asked The Oracle when he can return home. The Oracle says "Posthumously". This should imply that, if my understanding of the word is correct, he will die for real before he could return to his homeland in a body bag.

Posthumously means "After death". In our world, that's a one time event with no breaks or stops. In a D&D world, you can have several posthumous time thats prehumous.... that is you can die, have things happen after you die, and then come back.

[Nimrod's Son]

Posthumously means "After death". In our world, that's a one time event with no breaks or stops. In a D&D world, you can have several posthumous time thats prehumous.... that is you can die, have things happen after you die, and then come back.
Perhaps in the OotS universe the word "posthumously" is understood to mean after you die once and for all. Otherwise it's a meaningless word; it's like us having a word for someone who used to be ill, but isn't anymore.

Notice that in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html) scene neither Roy nor Durkon mentions the possibility of ressurection, nor do they even act like it's a possibility. And in a conversation between a man who's own father has died and come back multiple times, and a dwarf who himself knows how to bring back people from the dead, I would have expected that to occur to them.

[misterk]

Durkon certainly believes he will be dead for the final time when he goes home. But he assumes his quest will be finished, I should imagine, as otherwise why else would he not answer the call of resurrection. I can completely believe that Durkon will be brought there by the order then resurrected, only to have Xykon in hot pursuit (perhaps the order have Xykon's phylactery or something). This is certainly a prophecy I expect to be fufilled, and I can't imagine that Durkon will remain dead. I could, of course, be utterly wrong!

[hamishspence]

My theory is admittedly based on scanty evidence- but thats not unusual with theories :smallamused:

Contains a couple of spoilers from Origin:
First- that Durkon's home is not too far away from the Northern Gate- based on there being a lot of snow outside it in Origin.

Second (given that the prophesy to Roy said "of the two, Xykon will be near Girard's gate first") they will go to Kraagor's Gate.

Third- that "bringing disaster on us all" is a pretty big thing- possibly bigger than Xykon- so I hypothesise (tentatively) that the Snarl will be released at Kraagor's gate, and that when Durkon is killed (possibly in a big fight at Kraagor's Gate), the order flee with his body to the nearest settlement- which happens to be Durkon's home town- with The Snarl in hot pursuit.

[Thurbert]

Worst theory yet:

Taking the latin meaning of "post" and "hum(o)us" into account which translates roughly to "beneath the earth /soil" the prophecy could simply mean Durkon will return to his hometown underground (which seems plausible as dwarves usually live in mountains underground).

Furthermore it'd be of the same quality of one of the oracles previous answers ("Where's Xykon?" "In his throne room.") :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

you want me to spoiler it? OK.

Hmm. Nice pun.

[mizzim]

Worst theory yet:

Taking the latin meaning of "post" and "hum(o)us" into account which translates roughly to "beneath the earth /soil" the prophecy could simply mean Durkon will return to his hometown underground (which seems plausible as dwarves usually live in mountains underground).

Furthermore it'd be of the same quality of one of the oracles previous answers ("Where's Xykon?" "In his throne room.") :smallbiggrin:

I like this...
It's actually plausible, given Rich's sense of humor...
however, now that it's been posted, it won't be used.

[Keris]

Worst theory yet:

Taking the latin meaning of "post" and "hum(o)us" into account which translates roughly to "beneath the earth /soil" the prophecy could simply mean Durkon will return to his hometown underground (which seems plausible as dwarves usually live in mountains underground).

For the benefit of anyone not aware of the etymology of "posthumous":
First, post and humus are not direct roots of "posthumous". Post also generally means "after", rather than "beneath".
"Posthumous" comes from the Latin word postumus, which meant "last" (it was the superlative form of posterus, meaning "subsequent/coming after", which did come from post). This came to mean "last born", and was later altered to be spelt posthumus, which suggests death (one "born after the father's death" would be the last born by default) from connections with humare, "to bury" (which was from humus).
From "after the father's death", we more recently adopted the meaning "after death".

[Gametime]

Worth remembering, here, that Durkon is one of the most lawful characters imaginable. We're talking about someone who saw rain as a sign that he should surrender to an unknown foe because it was a sign from his god. It's not only possible, but probable, that Durkon would intentionally avoid any chance to return home if it looked like he would succeed before dying, for fear of going against destiny, divine dictates, or any other imagined law he would be at risk of violating.

Durkon will probably do his best to fulfill the prophecy as he interpreted it, and he was pretty clear about what he thought it meant.