World of Darkness Conversion: Brainstorming Thread

[Primal Fury]

As some of you know, I am currently working on how to convert a fair bit of World of Darkness over to d20. The fluff behind it is great, but let's face it, dice-pools are fickle mistresses (17 dice, and ONE FREAKING success :smallannoyed:). This is the thread where I will bounce some ideas of y'all and voice my various concerns about any problems I might be facing. And feel free to be perfectly honest; don't be afraid to say "Oh my god, that's so friggin' stupid. What's wrong with you?! :smallmad:" but please don't skimp on the "Holy crap that's so awesome! :smallbiggrin:"

Let's move on shall we? Okay, I've already done the Irraka, and it may need a few changes, but we'll get to that later. The Ithaeur is next. Since they are the shamans of the People, they will obviously be spell casters, but not just different types of druids. Rather than 9 levels of spells, they will only have access to 5 (those of you familiar with d20 Modern might know where I'm going with this).

All spells above 5th level will be treated as "Rites". Instead of simply casting these spells, the Ithaeur must perform a ritual in order for the spell to take effect. The duration of this ritual would depend on the spell level (i.e. a 7th level spell might take... 4 rounds to cast or some such). In addition, each round the Ithaeur would need to make a Knowledge check of some sort (I'm really not sure if it would be religion or arcana). If they do not succeed a predetermined number of times, the rite fails. I feel that this would be the best way to balance the Ithaeur against the other uratha classes.

One issue I'm having is balancing the various forms the uratha have access to. The only one that seems rather... useless in comparison to the others is the Near-man form. The wolf form has the best senses (or it will as soon as I fix that problem), the near-wolf form (in addition to being the fastest) offers a large degree of power with more control than the war form, which is a beast all by itself. Any help with this issue is appreciated. :smallbiggrin:

But. Before I do ALL of that, I'm going to conduct a little experiment with one of the OWoD vampire disciplines to see how well certain things "port over". An entire PrC devoted to Vicissitude. Expect to see that one soon. :smallbiggrin:

[Altair_the_Vexed]

You know Monte Cook already did a full conversion, don't you? (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=50229)

It may not be perfect, and you may wish to tweak all sorts of things here and there - but it does almost all the WoD powers / disciplines / rites / gnoses conversion you'll need.

[Primal Fury]

...Yeah. I know about that already, but it didn't really fit my tastes. That's definately a good source of inspiration on how to convert many of the abilities and whatnot, just tweaking what's there wouldn't really work for me. :smalltongue:

[Voidhawk]

Sounds cool!

Interestingly, some of my friends have been doing the exact reverse of this, converting a DnD Epic Fantasy setting, with wizards, druids etc, into the WoD system, with atributes, skills and merits. They've so far been calling it WoDnD.

[lesser_minion]

I suspect that this might be easier to do starting from True20 (http://www.greenronin.com/store/category/true20.html).

Not only is it a little closer to Storytelling/WoD already, but it is also a bit more adaptable, a bit more sensible, and a bit better balanced than d20.

There is no SRD as far as I can tell, but much of the content of the book is covered by the OGL and there's the traditional "no standalone products" license available as well.

There are a few things that would need work (Conviction is notoriously broken), but I think it would handle this extremely well.

[Primal Fury]

I am... not at all familiar with True20. But I will have a look at that. In any case, even if I do make this True20, the whole Vicissitude thing will still be for regular d20, if only because I already know what I'm working with.

[DracoDei]

The near-man form is for when you need to pass for human under some heavy clothing, but be a bit more combat-ready... maybe a slight bit of low-light, and a small strength boost (don't be afraid to try odd numbers in these cases BTW). Also, if you are keeping any of the shifting rules, then it makes it easier to get into War-Form quickly.

[Primal Fury]

Hm. That is very true Draco. And now that I think about it... doesn't Dalu form also give them a bonus to any rites they perform in that shape?

[lesser_minion]

I am... not at all familiar with True20. But I will have a look at that. In any case, even if I do make this True20, the whole Vicissitude thing will still be for regular d20, if only because I already know what I'm working with.

To use something from d20 in a True20 game isn't too hard - the ability scores have to be changed, and the creature's AC and hitpoints have to be converted into Defense and Toughness scores.

It's a bit more work to make things balanced alongside True20, and to make it blend perfectly, but it shouldn't be much more difficult than converting from Storytelling in the first place.

[Primal Fury]

Earlier you mentioned something called "Conviction". What is it and why is it borked?

[lesser_minion]

Earlier you mentioned something called "Conviction". What is it and why is it borked?

It's the True20 equivalent to Storytelling's Willpower. It can be spent on one of several common effects, or to activate a role's Core ability (either Determination, The Talent, or Expertise)

There are three main problems with it:

The options available for using conviction points are not balanced against each other - in particular, re-rolls are overpowered. The injury system is nasty enough, and random enough, that characters are dependent on re-rolling saves just to survive combat. Which means that removing re-rolls doesn't work unless you want a low-combat or high-lethality game. Conviction is supposed to allow characters to be heroic and awesome. This doesn't happen much, because in a game with a significant amount of combat, all of the heroic awesomeness is spent on just staying alive.


It isn't too horribly borked, but you either have to change the nature of the stat or part of the combat system in order to get it to work well in games that feature combat.

As Blood and Rage points will probably make their way back into the game in some form, I guess it might be pretty easy to fix, because the "Heroic Awesomeness" points would be separate from the "Not Dying" points.

[LurkerInPlayground]

As some of you know, I am currently working on how to convert a fair bit of World of Darkness over to d20. The fluff behind it is great, but let's face it, dice-pools are fickle mistresses (17 dice, and ONE FREAKING success :smallannoyed:). This is the thread where I will bounce some ideas of y'all and voice my various concerns about any problems I might be facing. And feel free to be perfectly honest; don't be afraid to say "Oh my god, that's so friggin' stupid. What's wrong with you?! :smallmad:" but please don't skimp on the "Holy crap that's so awesome! :smallbiggrin:"
Actually, d20's are also very fickle mistresses. And geometrically complex. And usually made very cheaply in Taiwan. Point is: d20's are low rollers too. Especially if you get one of those distinctly defective ones.

I mean, just use the system as-written. Converting it is too much trouble anyway.

[Primal Fury]

As Blood and Rage points will probably make their way back into the game in some form, I guess it might be pretty easy to fix, because the "Heroic Awesomeness" points would be separate from the "Not Dying" points.

Hm. So the separation of Essence/Blood from Conviction would help quite a bit, with the former consiting of Kamina level awesomeness, and the latter keeping it's "Oh please, Jesus, don't let me die" role. Is that what you mean?


Actually, d20's are also very fickle mistresses. And geometrically complex. And usually made very cheaply in Taiwan. Point is: d20's are low rollers too. Especially if you get one of those distinctly defective ones.

I mean, just use the system as-written. Converting it is too much trouble anyway.

D20's are also fickle, true, but not to the same extent as dice pools. You only have to worry about rolling one die in d20, and if you fail that single roll, then odds are you'll succeed next time (if you subscribe to the whole "dice karma" philosophy). But the ST system makes you fret over multiple dice, each of which have a... 40 percent chance of success, and that normally can't be modified by outside sources unless you're playing Exalted or Scion (but we're talking about WoD). And that's not even counting multiple defective d10s. :smalltongue:

And you're wrong. Converting is fun. :smallbiggrin:

[lesser_minion]

Hm. So the separation of Essence/Blood from Conviction would help quite a bit, with the former consiting of Kamina level awesomeness, and the latter keeping it's "Oh please, Jesus, don't let me die" role. Is that what you mean?

Pretty much. You'd probably be replacing Roles with WoD's supernatural templates anyway, so core abilities can be fueled by whatever mechanic you feel fits best.

[LurkerInPlayground]

D20's are also fickle, true, but not to the same extent as dice pools. You only have to worry about rolling one die in d20, and if you fail that single roll, then odds are you'll succeed next time (if you subscribe to the whole "dice karma" philosophy). But the ST system makes you fret over multiple dice, each of which have a... 40 percent chance of success, and that normally can't be modified by outside sources unless you're playing Exalted or Scion (but we're talking about WoD). And that's not even counting multiple defective d10s. :smalltongue:

And you're wrong. Converting is fun. :smallbiggrin:
Actually d10's are less likely to have cumulative errors because they have to be simpler shapes than d20's. d20's have more to go wrong with them because a slight change in one surface really screws with the overall shape. They also tend to be rounder and therefore "roll" more, which only magnifies any imperfections in the dice as facets with lower surface areas get passed over.

In effect, you can counter this by buying slightly higher quality dice or by using number generators, but the end result is that d10's aren't any less fickle.

And you're supposed to roll fistfuls d10's. It's not like you're worrying over the result of each and every roll. And as a matter of effect, adding dice actually creates a bell-curve wherein you get a set number of successes.

d20 emulates more or less exactly the same thing where bonuses simply make lesser challenges a virtual guarantee. Storyteller just gives you a bell-curve average of successes which have their effects modulated by some "difficulty value."

In a nutshell: You're wrong.

Also, d20 conversion fetish is a mental disorder. Look it up. There's nothing inherently superior about the d20 system that it justifies a complete overhaul of some other system. It's reinventing the wheel by some completely obtuse method to get a system that does roughly the same thing as before.

[Primal Fury]

Ooooookay Lurker. :smallconfused: You stay aaaaall they way over there with your talk of... fetishes, and I'll stay over here with my WoD d20/True20 conversion. :smalltongue:

And in my defence, whenever I played with the ST system, it was on some PbP thing with an automatic diceroller. So geometry really had nothing to do with it.

[Primal Fury]

Okay, back on topic. I was able to look at a small piece of Blue Rose (very pretty by the way), and I found a little problem: Would one auspice be inherently tougher than another? A Rahu may be a better warrior than a... Cahalith, but does that mean their tougher? I mean with d20, I could just give them all good fortitude saves and be done with it, but with this whole "Toughness" thing I'm not too sure.

And Arcana is very interesting, though I haven't had the chance look over and absorb the whole thing yet. Even so, it looks like an excellent way to represent rites, though I am unsure about gifts.

Must read MOAR!!! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I feel I should also point out the fact that I will not JUST be using NWoD material for this conversion, I will also be using OWoD.

[lesser_minion]

If one Auspice/Threshold/Clan is tougher than another one, you can probably take the bonus directly from WoD - if it adds straight into health, add it to Toughness as a Natural Armour bonus. If it adds to Stamina, add it to Constitution.

Bear in mind that Blue Rose is the default setting for True20 - the revised True20 rules are in the True20 Adventure Roleplaying book.

Character level would be comparable to Blood Potency/Psyche/Gnosis in most cases - unlike WoD, the effects of level are usually pretty consistent (I'd probably give supernaturals all good saves and mortals all weak - harsh, but it fits with the idea that the supernaturals are generally tougher).

To do WoD properly within the True20 rules, you'd probably have to make a couple of changes - roles would probably represent the clans, thresholds and so on. Characters would get their Core ability from their Role, which would replace their clan, auspice, tradition or threshold. Everyone would have access to supernatural powers, and you'd probably end up restricting access to powers by role.

[The Tygre]

I feel I should also point out the fact that I will not JUST be using NWoD material for this conversion, I will also be using OWoD.

Black! Dog!

Black! Dog!

Black! Dog!

[Primal Fury]

Black! Dog!

Black! Dog!

Black! Dog!

And that means... What exactly? :smallconfused:

[The Tygre]

And that means... What exactly? :smallconfused:

It an oWoD thing. It was a... special branch of White Wolf and WoD resources, more properly known as Black Dog Game Factory. Go on. Look it up. I'll wait.

...

I'm a Clan Baali, by the by. :smallamused:

[lesser_minion]

Black Dog is White Wolf's evil Werewolf: The Apocalypse counterpart, according to tvtropes (I'm not too familiar with OWoD).

This being WW, they had to inject some humour into their bleak and depressing world.

[Primal Fury]

Ooooh. You mean Freak Legion. That stuff was nasty. I just might use that. :smallamused:

Anyway, upon closer examination of Blue Rose, I've found that arcana is the best way to represent most (if not all) of the abilities. Also! Flesh-Shaping can pretty much equals Vicissitude almost exactly, it just needs a little boost. :smallbiggrin:

One thing bothers me though... What's to stop the different Meta-naturals from copying eachothers abilities? I guess certain ones should be off limits to others. But... both vampires and werewolves get access to something that can be called "Animism"... And both do a whole lot of shaping.

Mmmm. Converting is hard. :smallfrown:

EDIT: Also! Still working in the Corpus Disciple (AKA Vicissitude base class).

[lesser_minion]

Ooooh. You mean Freak Legion. That stuff was nasty. I just might use that. :smallamused:

Anyway, upon closer examination of Blue Rose, I've found that arcana is the best way to represent most (if not all) of the abilities. Also! Flesh-Shaping can pretty much equals Vicissitude almost exactly, it just needs a little boost. :smallbiggrin:

One thing bothers me though... What's to stop the different Meta-naturals from copying eachothers abilities? I guess certain ones should be off limits to others. But... both vampires and werewolves get access to something that can be called "Animism"... And both do a whole lot of shaping.

Mmmm. Converting is hard. :smallfrown:

EDIT: Also! Still working in the Corpus Disciple (AKA Vicissitude base class).

The True20 rules have an explanation of how to handle that - they suggested allowing players to create followers of a particular supernatural tradition.

[Satyr]

You probably don't don't need a full-blown conversion. Consider this:



You create characters as usual for the WoD setting of your choice.

You replace the dice pool system with a system based on the addition of attribute and skill. Then you roll 2d6 and add it to the skill, against a target number of your choice, whereby 10 is the average assumption.

If you want less arbitrary and more bellcurve-like results, take 4d3 instead of the 2d6.

Circumstances, good ideas, bad ideas andd equipment standards may increase or decrease the target number of a skill check.

In a direct competition of two characters against each other, the higher skill roll wins; the result of the lower roll is considered to be the other rolls target number.

A result equal to the target number is a simple success, or a success level of 1. For every two additional points over ten, the roll has achieved an additional success level.

In a stress-free situation or with as much time at hand as needed, a character may "take 7" or even "take 12" instead of rolling the dice.

Spending Willpower allows for rolling additional dices, but only the best two count.

Specialisations of skills work as if you have spent one willpower point for that specific skill check - one bonus die.

When fighting, the success levels of the attack are added to the damage roll. Damage rolls are made like all other rolls, take the number, add 2d6. Every success level deals one level of damage. Damage rolls are always made against a fixed target number of 10.

If a character can soak a certain source of damage, the result of the soak check (usually constitution + armor) becomes a competitve roll against the damage.