Most overlooked 3.5 book

[Thurbane]

I've seen a few "best 3.5 book" topics, but how about the most overlooked? Here's a few off the top of my head:

Miniatures Handbook (a lot of people assume it only has miniatures rules)
Book of Exalted Deeds (not so much overlooked, as assumed to be 3.0)
Exemplars of Evil (often overlooked as it came out so late in the 3.5 run)
Elder Evils (same as Exemplars)

[Jair Barik]

If I'm not mistaken wasn't exemplars of evil just a series of pregenerated villains including backgrounds and such?
What about Ghostwalk? Don't hear people mention that much

[Kurald Galain]

Surprisingly, the PHB2. It fixes many of the problems present in the PHB1, that overall PHB2+MM+DMG would make a better "core" than PHB1+MM+DMG would.

[Oslecamo]

PHB2 has celerity and friends, wich give a run on the brokeness department to the best spells in the PHB1.

My personal pick would be magic of incarnum. It's a quite interesting system, wich however few people know or use.

[Prak]

I wouldn't say BoED is overlooked, it's just not very good...
sadly, that's not a pun...

IMO? Lords of Madness, the other monster books are of varying quality and usefullness, but there's not too much mention of LoM...

[Saph]

Incarnum, probably. Loads of people know and use psionics, the Complete classes, and the stuff in the PHB II and Compendiums, but Incarnum's exceptionally rare. Even the Truenamer and Binder get more attention.

[UglyPanda]

Dragon Magic: Only remembered for one good feat (Dragonfire Inspiration) and one below-average class (Dragonfire Adept).
Frostburn: Because nobody ever runs a frozen tundra campaign.
Complete Psionic: About only thing most people ever use from it is in a web excerpt (Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2)). Possibly the Ardent, but I think that was in something else first.
Cityscape: No new classes or prestige classes; and the feats are kinda meh.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Book of Exalted Deeds (not so much overlooked, as assumed to be 3.0)
[/LIST]

It isn't? My friend got the Book of Vile Darkness, and we saw that it was 3.0, so we assumed BoED was too.

He's getting it anyway, because Wikipedia says it has the same adults only warning that BoVD did, and we're wondering what the hell it did to get that.

[Jair Barik]

I personally use LoM a lot. Overall I'd say I use them LoM>LM>Dracomnicon

Really though none of those are "mentioned" that much from personal experience.

PHB2 is hardly overlooked as many people talk about Beguilers and Duskblades or request them being used in PbP. Of the Completes I think Scoundrel and Divine seem relatively underused (though I think some of the divine feats in CD are used a bit and the Demon summoning guy in CS is also used)

Complete Arcane, adventurer, champion (I think) and warrior all get decent use as does EPH but CP is often neglected for some of its alterations (not forgotten though) and nerfs.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Cityscape: No new classes or prestige classes; and the feats are kinda meh.

This is due largely to the poor organization, but there are actually 2-4 prestige classes in Cityscape. They're just no where near each other, each in a different "city." The feats are pretty meh, as are the new spells. However, the web enhancement was pretty good.

[Prak]

It isn't? My friend got the Book of Vile Darkness, and we saw that it was 3.0, so we assumed BoED was too.

He's getting it anyway, because Wikipedia says it has the same adults only warning that BoVD did, and we're wondering what the hell it did to get that.

It talked about morality.

Seriously. That's why it has it. It doesn't matter that it's morality is completely fraked up bs that just doesn't work.
Ravages and Afflictions are something you'd expect to come out of Jack Chick.

[Eldariel]

Too many of them. Monster books in particular - Draconomicon, Lords of Madness, Fiendish Codexes, Libris Mortis, Fiend Folio - and Stormwrack (unlike the other "Mastering the Perils of..." books, Stormwrack is an absolute MUST if you plan on making any relevant amount of use of the sea in your games).

Also, for all its dumb stuff, Savage Species covers an area that desperately needs covering and while it left to be desired, it could've been a lot worse. Heroes of Battle gets mentioned somewhat, but it's one of the books I use the most, and definitely the one I use the most in relation to how much exposure it gets. Heroes of Horror is more niché, but just about any campaign is going to contain big fights. And Cityscape falls here too.


And of course, Monster Manuals II - V require a mention. For all their faults, getting a bunch of extra monsters kicks ass. And Races of X (including Eberron) really adds to the contents of the standard races especially in D&D context, so they're up there too.

[The Dark Fiddler]

It talked about morality.

Seriously. That's why it has it. It doesn't matter that it's morality is completely fraked up bs that just doesn't work.
Ravages and Afflictions are something you'd expect to come out of Jack Chick.

:smallsigh: That's lame, we were half expecting something like the Lich Loved feat.

[Berserk Monk]

My favorite 3.5 book would have to be "How to effectively Munchkin, kill all the gods at level one in one round, and completely mess up all the DM's plans."

[Boci]

:smallsigh: That's lame, we were half expecting something like the Lich Loved feat.

Angel loved just wouldn't have the same feel....

[Foryn Gilnith]

I wouldn't say BoED is overlooked, it's just not very good...

Isn't that why it's overlooked?

[Prak]

:smallsigh: That's lame, we were half expecting something like the Lich Loved feat.

well, there is a feat like Lich Loved but for a nymph. I think it's called Nymph-kissed or something. But seriously, I think the above reason is why it got the sticker. Also for symmetry.


Isn't that why it's overlooked?

good point.

[Kurald Galain]

My favorite 3.5 book would have to be "How to effectively Munchkin, kill all the gods at level one in one round, and completely mess up all the DM's plans."

That pretty much exists: The Munchkin's Guide To Power Gaming, by Steve Jackson.

[Prak]

That pretty much exists: The Munchkin's Guide To Power Gaming, by Steve Jackson.

it's tongue in cheek though. Munchkinism doesn't really need a guide... it's all just cheating.

[Eldariel]

it's tongue in cheek though. Munchkinism doesn't really need a guide... it's all just cheating.

You'd think... But it's amazing how many incompetent cheaters you run into (prolly 'cause you don't figure out the competent ones) :smalltongue:

[Temet Nosce]

Dungeon Masters Guide II

Really, I never see this book used by anyone else and rarely use it myself. It usually doesn't even get mentioned by name when Magical Locations come up (one of the few reasons to talk about it)... Out of the other books in this thread, I've made serious use of all but one of the OP's in the last two months, and all of the others except Ghostwalk and Cityscape within the last six (those I agree are good suggestions, though I still see them mentioned more than the DMG II).

Other possibilities...


Heroes of Battle
Heroes of Horror
Races of Destiny (really, most of the Races of books probably are contenders, but this one is mentioned less than most)

[The Glyphstone]

Undoubtedly the Animated Series Handbook.:smallsmile:

I never even knew it existed until today, and I thought I owned a copy of every 3.5 book in existence...

[Berserk Monk]

Dungeon Masters Guide II

I haven't read it, but I heard the sequel is worse than the first.

[Gralamin]

Isn't that why it's overlooked?

I would argue to be overlooked, there should be at least some value to it.

[Fax Celestis]

I haven't read it, but I heard the sequel is worse than the first.

Whoever told you that is a filthy liar. The DMG-II is "how to DM", where the DMG-I is "here's the rules". Both are useful, though the DMG-II is more useful between sessions than it is during.

Most overlooked book for me is a three-way tie between Magic of Incarnum, Magic of Eberron, and Drow of the Underdark.

[lesser_minion]

He's getting it anyway, because Wikipedia says it has the same adults only warning that BoVD did, and we're wondering what the hell it did to get that.

BoED and BoVD are supposed to be WotC's big experiment with mature content - my understanding is that there isn't an 'adults only' (i.e. "minors can't have this") warning, just a 'mature content' ("minors probably shouldn't be reading this") warning.

I think the idea was that the content was supposed to be a bit dark, potentially disturbing and generally not something you would want to explain or show to a child, rather than being pornographic.

[Prak]

I would argue to be overlooked, there should be at least some value to it.

there's some value to it. I came up with the resetting nuclear paladin thanks to it.

[Fax Celestis]

BoED and BoVD are supposed to be WotC's big experiment with mature content - there isn't any adult only warning.

Yes, there is. There's a big ol' sticker on the cover.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Yes, there is. There's a big ol' sticker on the cover.

The copy my friend got didn't have that.

Instead, I discovered because of the tiny little note on the inside of the book. Since I don't have the book here, I can't check what page exactly, but I think it was on the page with the copyright and all that.

[lesser_minion]

Yes, there is. There's a big ol' sticker on the cover.

My understanding is that the warning was "mature content" - the whole point was that it wasn't really restrictable, but wasn't something they wanted to sell to adults.

Apparently my wording was well off.

It's a little bit harsher than the mature content warnings found in WFRP and WitchCraft, but my understanding is that it's not actually supposed to be much worse than either of those (both of which were along the lines of "this book is unhappy and would like a hug. Reader discretion advised.").

I remember the books being deliberately shrink wrapped with a warning sticker though.

[UglyPanda]

Undoubtedly the Animated Series Handbook.:smallsmile:

I never even knew it existed until today, and I thought I owned a copy of every 3.5 book in existence...I forgot about that. I thought it was 3.0. But that book is more obscure than overlooked. Only players over thirty and under sixty who watched the cartoon would be interested in that.

A lot of the campaign-specific sourcebooks are obscure but not overlooked. Few will ever use Dragons of Faerun/Eberron or anything else which exists simply to give you background info that you won't need. And most modules aren't going to see much use by anyone except the DM (and cheaters).

Edit:
The Animated Series Handbook actually contains a little adventure. It's not very good, but I'm surprised it's there.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Apparently my wording was well off.

Or mine. Maybe it wasn't an 'adults only' warning, but like I said, I don't have the book available to check, and won't be able to check until my next session on Wednesday.

[Oslecamo]

Whoever told you that is a filthy liar. The DMG-II is "how to DM", where the DMG-I is "here's the rules". Both are useful, though the DMG-II is more useful between sessions than it is during.


However, the DMG II has rules as well, and they all pretty much suck big time. The ratio of usefull content to the total is one of the worst out there, if not the worst.

But it has the mob template, so I'll forgive it. Check out my sig for discussion and improvement of it.

[Akal Saris]

I'd go with Ghostwalk or the DMG II. I actually like the DMG II because it has a lot of good advice for DMs, and I like the Apprentice/Mentor and Business rules. There are some good items too that are often overlooked.

Really, the PHB II is very common, the DMG II is much rarer I think.

[Gametime]

It isn't? My friend got the Book of Vile Darkness, and we saw that it was 3.0, so we assumed BoED was too.

He's getting it anyway, because Wikipedia says it has the same adults only warning that BoVD did, and we're wondering what the hell it did to get that.

Nothing, really. The adult warning is just so it mirrors BoVD. It DOES talk about "mature" topics (i.e. roleplaying a pacifist, giving experience for solely nonviolent encounters, etc.) but there's no reason it should be exclusive to adults.

[Uin]

Most overlooked book for me is a three-way tie between Magic of Incarnum, Magic of Eberron, and Drow of the Underdark.If I read right I think people disliked the Daelkyr Half-Bloods when it was originally released (jumping the shark reaction) but theres not really a better way of playing a creepy aberration and I use the book all the time when I run my Eberron campaign.

[The Glyphstone]

I forgot about that. I thought it was 3.0. But that book is more obscure than overlooked. Only players over thirty and under sixty who watched the cartoon would be interested in that.

.

Or anyone trying to make an optimized archer - it's the only official source for the Power Shot ability, attached to the energy bow. Then again, I think that was found in the online except for the book.

[Prak]

Or anyone trying to make an optimized archer - it's the only official source for the Power Shot ability, attached to the energy bow. Then again, I think that was found in the online except for the book.

I'm 22 and I'm vaguely interested in the book. I kinda want Presto's hat...

[Zeta Kai]

The BoED is mature because it deals with religious & philosophical issues in a way that children cannot fully grasp.

The BoVD is mature because it shows demonic boobs, mentions rape/sexual degradation/fetishes, & it has rules for torture.

IMO, the DMG2 is not overlooked; it's just widely disliked. People talk about it plenty, just not in a positive light. Same with Race of Destiny, Cityscape, & Complete Psionic.

More obscure books are Ghostwalk (does anybody play this?), Birthright (does this even count?), Weapons of Legacy (due to its horrendous quality), Exemplars of Evil (DM-only content, released moments before 4E), & the Stronghold Builder's Guide (I didn't even know that this existed until last month).

[Thurbane]

It isn't? My friend got the Book of Vile Darkness, and we saw that it was 3.0, so we assumed BoED was too.

He's getting it anyway, because Wikipedia says it has the same adults only warning that BoVD did, and we're wondering what the hell it did to get that.
BoVD = very late 3.0
BoED = very early 3.5

[Xenogears]

The BoED is mature because it deals with religious & philosophical issues in a way that children cannot fully grasp.

I am fairly certain that the whole good=evil*(-1) was exactly the kind of morality that children can understand. I mean really the rules on what is good in the BoED is basically the rules of the classroom back in kindergarten.

No Poison = Don't cheat on tests.
No killing = Don't Hit
Ravages are okay = Have a "cheat sheet"
Undead/Fiends are bad = Don't put that frog on little Suzy
Etc.

Really. The BoED doesn't really dwell on complicated ethical dilemnas or anything. It just gives you a list of generic things that everyone knows is evil (Killing, stealing, etc.) and then tosses some curveballs that are not explained well (undead, poisons, etc.). Nothing mature about it.

Also I liked the stronghold builders guide. It allows me to make a teleporting, flying, anti-magic, magically guarded pub that is owned by epic level warforged.

[JonestheSpy]

Ghostwalk has some interesting stuff in it. I've just started a campaign where resurrection is pretty much off the table, and if/when one of the characters dies it'll be fun to surprise him with "Hey, guess what, you're now a corporeal ghost."

There will probably some minor quest for a necromancer to get some item tat allows permanent corporeality, as the whole Manifest setting is way too limiting for my campaign (though it might be fun to have a trip to the city of the dead sometime...).

[Lycanthromancer]

I'm sure there was some good stuff in the Stronghold Builder's Guide, but some of the REALLY EXPENSIVE stuff in there can be done by any mid-level wizard for the one-time cost of the spells in his spellbook.

Really, how expensive is it for your wizard to cast fabricate a whole bunch of times? Especially if he preps the materials with shrink item first?

It totally didn't take into account what Core could already do.

---

As for overlooked books, I'd say the Book of Erotic Fantasy. Who wouldn't want to play a sacred prostitute?

...Erm...not that I'd know anything about that...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

IMO, the DMG2 is not overlooked; it's just widely disliked. People talk about it plenty, just not in a positive light. Same with Race of Destiny, Cityscape, & Complete Psionic.Disagree with RoD and Cityscape. Everyone I know loves Cityscape, and RoD I haven't heard anything bad about.

[Xenogears]

I'm sure there was some good stuff in the Stronghold Builder's Guide, but some of the REALLY EXPENSIVE stuff in there can be done by any mid-level wizard for the one-time cost of the spells in his spellbook.

Really, how expensive is it for your wizard to cast fabricate a whole bunch of times? Especially if he preps the materials with shrink item first?

It totally didn't take into account what Core could already do.

Yeah it is overpriced but not only can you pool your resources for the stronghold you can also all take the feat which would give each of you a second amount of WBL that can only be spent on the stronghold and if you do spend money on it you get twice the benefit. So basically a lvl 20 party of four people would get 12X the WBL to spend on a stronghold if they really felt like spendin all their money on it. 8mil is a lot of moola even by Stronghold Building standards

Also they do give you price cuts for having Wizards willing to freely cast stoneshape and fabricate spells so... yeah. I think Fabricate makes all decorations free or something. Stone Shape makes stone walls free or really cheap or something. So it does take that into account.

[Claudius Maximus]

Ghostwalk is indeed overlooked, but I have not sen very much mention of Dragonlance either. There are a few books for that campaign setting, but all I've seen of it on this forum is that horrendous Reserves of Strength feat.

I rarely see mention of Champions of Ruin/Valor, and of the Planar Handbook, and I have never seen mention of Silver Marches, Power of Faerun, Five Nations, Enemies and Allies, the Hero Builder's Guidebook, or the Book of Challenges.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Hero Builder's Guidebook is entirely fluff, and most of it drivel I wouldn't spare a second to read in any detail. The random generation tables can lead to interesting combos if you're lucky, though, and I use them sometimes.

[Lycanthromancer]

Yeah it is overpriced but not only can you pool your resources for the stronghold you can also all take the feat which would give each of you a second amount of WBL that can only be spent on the stronghold and if you do spend money on it you get twice the benefit. So basically a lvl 20 party of four people would get 12X the WBL to spend on a stronghold if they really felt like spendin all their money on it. 8mil is a lot of moola even by Stronghold Building standards

Also they do give you price cuts for having Wizards willing to freely cast stoneshape and fabricate spells so... yeah. I think Fabricate makes all decorations free or something. Stone Shape makes stone walls free or really cheap or something. So it does take that into account.I can make a core-only wizard with a handful of spells that can get a keep for free, aside from the costs of scribing the spells themselves.

Fabricate for 99% of the building (coupled with shrink item to conserve castings), and lesser planar binding/dominate and mount for both skilled and menial labor. Traps are fairly easy, as well.

The SBG is for noncasters without access to friendly casters only. Or sorcerers with excessively low Int.

[AshDesert]

My favorite 3.5 book would have to be "How to effectively Munchkin, kill all the gods at level one in one round, and completely mess up all the DM's plans."

Sooo... Jerk + PHB?

As for overlooked books, Races of Destiny, Cityscape, and the various "climate" books (Stormwrack, Frostburn, etc.) are rarely mentioned.

[Xenogears]

I wasn't saying it was perfect. All I said was that it tried to take into account the friendly caster/being a caster thing. Also one of the cool things is that if you make it anti-magic it emenates from all the walls so can't be blocked as easily. Just saying it tried to take that stuff into account and had some really cool stuff in it even if it is overpriced. Also as I said Stone Shape makes all stone walls free (i think.... can't remember exactly right now...) so even using the StrongholdBuilders Guide you could do it for free...

[CockroachTeaParty]

Hmm... I'd put in another vote for Drow of the Underdark.

Though, I never even heard of Ghostwalk until reading this thread, so that probably beats it.

[AstralFire]

I love Book of Exalted Deeds.

Not for the terrible 'morality' espoused in it, and not for any mechanical cheese - but simply because it has so many wonderful character building options (mechanically) to represent a character metaphysically aligned with good but is not a divine caster. As I am often interested in this, BoED is right behind ToB, XPH, and Complete Warrior for my most used books.

[PhoenixRivers]

Stormwrack. Other than Riverine, it's so rarely used.

[Aptera]

Incarnum. I just started reading it, and I really wished more people had mentioned it in the past so I would have looked at it earlier.

[chiasaur11]

My favorite 3.5 book would have to be "How to effectively Munchkin, kill all the gods at level one in one round, and completely mess up all the DM's plans."

You mean the PHB?

[arguskos]

Everyone I know loves Cityscape.
Nope, I don't. :smalltongue: Just so useless.

As for me, I think the rarest book I've seen discussed is Dawnforge, or Kingdoms of Kalamar anything. The former is simply rare. The latter is... well, it's rare and USELESS. You can either buy a book discussing the setting and nothing else, or you can buy a book talking about the unique crunch of KoK and nothing else (I think, I've never seen said book and am guessing it's real).

[JonestheSpy]

Nope, I don't. :smalltongue: Just so useless.

As for me, I think the rarest book I've seen discussed is Dawnforge, or Kingdoms of Kalamar anything. The former is simply rare. The latter is... well, it's rare and USELESS. You can either buy a book discussing the setting and nothing else, or you can buy a book talking about the unique crunch of KoK and nothing else (I think, I've never seen said book and am guessing it's real).

In all fairness, the Kalamar books are no more useless than the Faerun books - if you like Kenzerco's world they're worthwhile, if you don't they're not.

[Zeta Kai]

1) I love Cityscape, & I think it's useful; one of my top 5 books, actually. But I know that I'm in the minority.

2) I also like RoD, but the general consensus is it's the least useful race-splat.

3) The Book of Erotic Fantasy is third party, which doesn't count in this discussion.

4) OMG, I forgot all about Kingdoms of Kalamar. That one wins the thread. Even in a discussion of obscure, overlooked books, it took until page 2 before somebody thought to mention it. KoK wins! :smallbiggrin:

[arguskos]

In all fairness, the Kalamar books are no more useless than the Faerun books - if you like Kenzerco's world they're worthwhile, if you don't they're not.
I've seen them once at my FLGS, it's still there as far as I know. >_> I know less than nothing about the setting, and I'm a setting BUFF. I'm pretty damn sure that Kalamar might be the most overlooked book ever made. :smalltongue:

[ex cathedra]

I'm going to second Power of Faerun.

However, if we're talking about the most undeservedly overlooked 3.5 book, Drow Of The Underdark wins. It has tons of useful material that rarely sees use.

[JonestheSpy]

I've seen them once at my FLGS, it's still there as far as I know. >_> I know less than nothing about the setting, and I'm a setting BUFF. I'm pretty damn sure that Kalamar might be the most overlooked book ever made. :smalltongue:

Well, Kalamar is 3rd party like the silly erotic book, so I don't even know if it counts in the discussion. And its audience is probably pretty much restricted to fans of Knight of the Dinner Table, as Kenzerco publishes that fine book and it's probably the only way most folks would ever hear about Kalamar.

Being a product of a small publisher would seem to make it out of the scope of this thread, I'd figure. Otherwise we'd have to include all sorts of stuff no one ever remembers except a small minority of folks who bought the books...

[arguskos]

I remember Kalamar being licensed as offical material, though if I read that wrong, that's fair. In that case, I'll throw my vote at the Animated Show Handbook, for being stupidly rare in actual print. I've never seen one in person even. :smallsigh:

[Draz74]

I'll vote Dungeonscape. The fact that nobody has mentioned it yet means it surely qualifies. :smallbiggrin:

I mean, yeesh, it's the Dungeons book in a game called Dungeons and Dragons. Arguably, it and Draconomicon should be the best two splats. :smallwink: Yet they're both seldom mentioned.

Sure, the Factotum gets plenty of attention, within a certain niche segment of the community (... namely, this forum :smalltongue:). Same with the Dungeoncrasher option. But the rest of Dungeonscape? Definitely underappreciated.

Encounter traps, teamwork benefits, the Dungeon Lord PrC for BBEGs, the templates that make monsters make more sense in Dungeons? All incredibly awesome. And then there's the equipment section, excellent magic items and even more astoundingly excellent mundane items ... wow. Yeah, that mundane items section in particular is better than any other splat for making the game feel like good old-school D&D.

[Akal Saris]

I'm going to second Power of Faerun.

However, if we're talking about the most undeservedly overlooked 3.5 book, Drow Of The Underdark wins. It has tons of useful material that rarely sees use.

Yeah, I'll agree with this statement. DoTU managed to be a cool book about drow, at at the same time made the Intimidate skill, Poison usage, crossbow users, assassins, and rogues all much cooler and more mechanically viable. Granted, the PrCs are pretty horrible, but otherwise its a terrific book.

[Kaiyanwang]

+1 Drow of the Underdark.

It's an awesome, awesome book with options good to Drow PCs, Drow NPCs, and far more important 90% of the options are good in campaign without a single Drow.

The ACFs, ambush feats, melee feats and poison feats are great.

[ZeroNumerous]

Angel loved just wouldn't have the same feel....

"I took Touched By An Angel at third level."
"Show me on the doll where the Angel touched you."

[Zeta Kai]

I remember Kalamar being licensed as offical material, though if I read that wrong, that's fair. In that case, I'll throw my vote at the Animated Show Handbook, for being stupidly rare in actual print. I've never seen one in person even. :smallsigh:

Having looked up Kingdoms of Kalamar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar), I'd say it falls in the nebulous territory of second-party material. Therefore, it is debatable whether it counts in our discussion here.

And Dungeonscape gets plenty of love, at least at my table. I've had to retire the Dungeon Lord PrC because my players started to figure out which NPCs had it & what it could do. Clever buggers. Also, the Factotum is not only awesome, but is mentioned here on a weekly basis.

I still say Ghostwalk is far more overlooked. That book is fittingly ghostly.

[hamishspence]

I am fairly certain that the whole good=evil*(-1) was exactly the kind of morality that children can understand. I mean really the rules on what is good in the BoED is basically the rules of the classroom back in kindergarten.

No Poison = Don't cheat on tests.
No killing = Don't Hit
Ravages are okay = Have a "cheat sheet"
Undead/Fiends are bad = Don't put that frog on little Suzy
Etc.


I saw it as more an attempt to bring D&D morality into the 20th-21st century.

Given that it is often characterised as "break into the homes of people who you don't know have done anything, murder them, and steal their stuff" it kind of needed it.

Several of the major features are well in line with the Geneva conventions on warfare- and modern international law:

No pre-emptive strikes against those you don't have evidence of crimes committed
No intentionally targeting non-combatants
All surrenders must be accepted
Prisoners must be treated correctly- no cruelty
No killing prisoners out of hand after they have surrendered
No using poison or disease as weapons
Slavery is wrong

Etc.

[lesser_minion]

And Dungeonscape gets plenty of love, at least at my table. I've had to retire the Dungeon Lord PrC because my players started to figure out which NPCs had it & what it could do. Clever buggers. Also, the Factotum is not only awesome, but is mentioned here on a weekly basis.


I don't think it would be evident from looking at these boards if Dungeonscape was under-appreciated. I don't really look elsewhere, so I wouldn't know if it was overlooked anywhere else.

[bosssmiley]

Races of Treehugging has very little cheese potential (or any content worth reading), and thus gets no love on the webotubes. But then it deserves none.

Complete Psionic is acknowledged only that people may spit upon it.

Ghostwalk is just a poor Planescape knock-off (specifically, of the Dustmen).

All three are rightly shunned, reviled and driven forth from civilization to die in the wilderness. :smallamused:

[Xenogears]

I saw it as more an attempt to bring D&D morality into the 20th-21st century.

Given that it is often characterised as "break into the homes of people who you don't know have done anything, murder them, and steal their stuff" it kind of needed it.

Several of the major features are well in line with the Geneva conventions on warfare- and modern international law:

No pre-emptive strikes against those you don't have evidence of crimes committed
No intentionally targeting non-combatants
All surrenders must be accepted
Prisoners must be treated correctly- no cruelty
No killing prisoners out of hand after they have surrendered
No using poison or disease as weapons
Slavery is wrong

Etc.

Oh I wasn't saying that they are all bad or anything (although the Poison one doesn't make sense in the context of DnD as A) your not usually engaging in honour duels or anything and B) you have to add it to a weapon in DnD so it isn't a gas bomb like in modern life and some do not explicitly cause undue suffering...) I was just commenting that there was no nead for the "Mature Content" warning as it approached Morality in the very Black/White Morality that is easiest for children to understand.

[Blackfang108]

I still say Ghostwalk is far more overlooked. That book is fittingly ghostly.

It's so overlooked, no one knows that it's 3.0, even.

(Isn't it? I don't recall seeing 3.5 anywhere on the book)

[hamishspence]

It is- you can tell when you look at damage reduction

( X/+1, rather than X/magic, generally)

It is one of the very last 3.0 products- however- June 2003 I think it was.

[hamishspence]

I was just commenting that there was no nead for the "Mature Content" warning as it approached Morality in the very Black/White Morality that is easiest for children to understand.

True up to a point (especially with "an evil act is an evil act, no matter how good your intended end is")

I think they may have been playing it safe. Some of the art is also a little close to the line (though IMO no more than Monster Manual 3.5 was)

[AllisterH]

Damn...is it a bad thing that out of all the books mentioned on this thread, the only I didn't buy was the D&D animated adventurer's handbook?

[Blackfang108]

It is- you can tell when you look at damage reduction

( X/+1, rather than X/magic, generally)

It is one of the very last 3.0 products- however- June 2003 I think it was.

Still 3.5, and therefore doesnt' qualify for this discussion.

I'll have to say DMG II is the most overlooked.

[Optimystik]

Races of Destiny (really, most of the Races of books probably are contenders, but this one is mentioned less than most)

Really? I see Illumians in every 3rd thread thanks to the Krau Sigil for PrC entry tricks.


Frostburn: Because nobody ever runs a frozen tundra campaign.

That book gave us both the Frost Mage (10/10 PrC with ice abilities) and the oft-cited Shivering Touch.


My favorite 3.5 book would have to be "How to effectively Munchkin, kill all the gods at level one in one round, and completely mess up all the DM's plans."

So the PHB then? :smalltongue:

My vote goes to Incarnum also, but I wouldn't call it overlooked - it's merely confusing and so doesn't see much play.

[peacenlove]

It is- you can tell when you look at damage reduction

( X/+1, rather than X/magic, generally)

It is one of the very last 3.0 products- however- June 2003 I think it was.

It got updated to 3.5 edition via a web enchantment.

[Sinfire Titan]

DMG 2
Magic of Incarnum (sadly, it seems like only 30-some odd people know the system, as I see the same names every time)
Magic of Faerun
Magic of Eberron
Exemplars of Evil (it has PC stuff in it too)
Dragonmarked


Least loved?

Complete Psionics
Races of Eberron
Races of Faerun
Complete Warrior (its actually the second most hated of the Complete series, beating out Complete Champion)
Complete Champion


CP is obvious. Races of Eberron gets flak because it is 5-6 chapters of nothing, and three chapters of crunch (most of which was fairly low quality). Races of Faerun is RoE+. Complete Warrior gets flak for being underpowered, but it is the oldest of the Completes series. CC gets flak for a number of reasons, mostly for the Devotion feats and affiliations though.

[lesser_minion]

It got updated to 3.5 edition via a web enchantment.

An enchantment? Really?

I didn't know the Wizards actually practiced magic. Why didn't anyone tell me earlier?

(I hope this didn't offend you, but I think you may have meant 'web enhancement'.)

[Lycanthromancer]

A web enchantment? Really?

I didn't know the Wizards practiced real magic. Why did nobody tell me?

:smallamused:

Chick Tracts tried. Didn't you read the memo?

...Poor Blackleaf. :smallamused:

[Longcat]

Let's see:
Magic of Incarnum: takes a while to get into, but definitely worth it, if only for the totemist.
Rules Compendium: Mostly because no one wants to pay for errata.
Tome of Battle: Not necessarily overlooked, but certainly the most over-prejudiced 3.5 book ever printed by WotC. Just take a look at all the "they should have buffed the fighter/paladin/monk etc instead" or "anime/Weaboo" threads, compared to the number of people posting in those threads who've actually read the book.
Tome of Magic: Sure, everyone knows truenamers play in the same league as the CW Samurai. But other than that, this book brings a lot of interesting game mechanics (Pact Magic, Shadowcasting) into the game.

[peacenlove]

An enchantment? Really?

I didn't know the Wizards actually practiced magic. Why didn't anyone tell me earlier?

(I hope this didn't offend you, but I think you may have meant 'web enhancement'.)

None taken, I confuse these words all the time. :smallsigh:
Yes i meant web enhancement. (and yes i know they sound totally different :smalltongue:)

[Bayar]

Races of Treehugging has very little cheese potential (or any content worth reading), and thus gets no love on the webotubes. But then it deserves none.

If you are talking about Races of the Wild, then Raptorans and Catfolk are preety awesome.

[Optimystik]

If you are talking about Races of the Wild, then Raptorans and Catfolk are preety awesome.

Yeah, and Arcane Heirophant.

[Saph]

If you are talking about Races of the Wild, then Raptorans and Catfolk are preety awesome.

The stuff on elven society, religion, etc. is pretty nice too if you like playing them (which I do). Plus, elven wizard racial substitution levels.

[Tyndmyr]

Anything that brings catgirls into D&D needs to perish by fire.

[Ormur]

I can make a core-only wizard with a handful of spells that can get a keep for free, aside from the costs of scribing the spells themselves.

Fabricate for 99% of the building (coupled with shrink item to conserve castings), and lesser planar binding/dominate and mount for both skilled and menial labor. Traps are fairly easy, as well.

The SBG is for noncasters without access to friendly casters only. Or sorcerers with excessively low Int.

Fabricate requires a craft check to make pretty stuff so if your wizard is prepared to live in a castle with rough furniture or spend all his ranks in the craft skill you could probably get a castle for free. But since the landlord feat gives you everything for free anyway and you could have the finest craftsmen available furnish your house I don't think it's too bad. Even if you want to build your own castle or make things cheaper SBG still helps you figure out how the finished product might look like.

[Eldariel]

The stuff on elven society, religion, etc. is pretty nice too if you like playing them (which I do). Plus, elven wizard racial substitution levels.

I'm going to have to echo this: I really loved the additions to Elven fluff; it's clear that D&D Elves are pretty distinct from...well, any other Elves so having more background to go with it helps immensely. I loved the "A Day in Life"-chapter in particular; helps me envision the kind of environment in which my character has grown and what kinds of effects it may have on him. Oh, and it's interesting to read. The book also really helped me envision, what exactly it means for a Chaotic society to be Chaotic, or Chaotic Good.

[Sinfire Titan]

Anything that brings catgirls into D&D needs to perish by fire.

I'm on a similar thought-train with elves. Catgirls are fine, elves need to burn.

[Optimystik]

I'm on a similar thought-train with elves. Catgirls are fine, elves need to burn.

As much as I agree, we are as likely to be able to remove elves from D&D as we are dragons at this point. :smallyuk:

(I do have a small amount of affection for wild elves, though - probably because all the snooty ones turn their pointy noses up when they're screaming and casting spells with dung.)

Of the "races" books though, my favorite is Destiny because I love Illumians. Eberron (for Warforged) are close behind.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm on a similar thought-train with elves. Catgirls are fine, elves need to burn.

Lets compromise. I get half of what I want, you get half of what you want.

We burn precisely half of each elf and catgirl.

[Longcat]

I don't know what's worse... Elves, Catgirls, or Half-Elf Catgirls?

[Sinfire Titan]

Lets compromise. I get half of what I want, you get half of what you want.

We burn precisely half of each elf and catgirl.

Agreed. Dibs on maiming the elf.

[AstralFire]

I don't know what's worse... Elves, Catgirls, or Half-Elf Catgirls?

Catgirls. Elves have occasionally done cool things.

[Ormur]

Countless catgirls have been sacrificed in the name of scientific accuracy, surely that's worth something.

[AstralFire]

Anyone can think of a work of fiction that was at least decent and involved an elf (or elves) as a notable element. The only counterpart for catgirls that comes to mind is Outlaw Star, and she was easily the worst part of the show. I just don't see the appeal.

"I'm a human! But I have freaky ears on my head and do diabetes-inducing things with cat noises! n.n"

[jokey665]

Anyone can think of a work of fiction that was at least decent and involved an elf (or elves) as a notable element. The only counterpart for catgirls that comes to mind is Outlaw Star, and she was easily the worst part of the show.

What!? Aisha is adorable!

[AstralFire]

What!? Aisha is adorable!

You. Get out.

[jokey665]

You. Get out.

Okay, but I'm talking Aisha, Melfina, and Suzuka with me. :smallbiggrin:

[AstralFire]

Feel free. Get the cat out of here.

[Sinfire Titan]

What!? Aisha is adorable!

She was funny, not adorable.

[Starbuck_II]

Aisha Clanclan was awesome. She was badass when she got angry. So she was a decent character. Wasn't attracted to her.
She saved Catgirls from being unhighly regarded to me.

[Bayar]

Anything that brings catgirls into D&D needs to perish by fire.

I hate you all. It's people like you that prevent cat dudes to score.

[Longcat]

I hate you all. It's people like you that prevent cat dudes to score.

Well, Schrödinger was pretty awesome.

[deuxhero]

Dragon Magic: Only remembered for one good feat (Dragonfire Inspiration) and one below-average class (Dragonfire Adept).


Wasn't eldritch glaive from there?

[Eldariel]

Wasn't eldritch glaive from there?

Dragon Magic has ****tons of good stuff, but seems the guy bringing it up didn't remember it all. A ton of awesome spells (particularly for Dragonblooded), the Dragonfire-line in its entirety (not just Dragonfire Inspiration; Assault, Strike & co. have their uses too), Dragonfire Adept, handy items, new Vestige, new powers... It has everything you could mechanically want for except martial maneuvers (which, admittedly, wouldn't really fit the book anyways; Magic and all).

[Sinfire Titan]

Wasn't eldritch glaive from there?

He's probably referring to the PrCs being crappy. But yes, Glaive was in Dragon Magic. Along with the Wall of Force invocation, IIRC.


And the DFA isn't below average. It's equal or above, if barely. Metabreath feats and Entangling Exhalation.

[OracleofWuffing]

Anyone can think of a work of fiction that was at least decent and involved an elf (or elves) as a notable element. The only counterpart for catgirls that comes to mind is Outlaw Star, and she was easily the worst part of the show.
From what titles in the series I've played, catgirls seem prominent in the Breath of Fire series.

[deuxhero]

Fabricate requires a craft check to make pretty stuff

Craft checks can be made untrained and are based on... int. If you are a wizard and your int isn't pimped out, you are not getting hired for anything.

[Blackfang108]

From what titles in the series I've played, catgirls seem prominent in the Breath of Fire series.

Not exactly true:
Badass Catpeople are in BoF.

[DragoonWraith]

Given that Ayla was in Chrono Trigger, and Chrono Trigger was one of the best games ever made, I'm going to have to disagree with your, AstralFire.

Ohmigawd it's AstralFire!

[Eldariel]

Given that Aisha was in Chrono Trigger, and Chrono Trigger was one of the best games ever made, I'm going to have to disagree with your, AstralFire.

Ohmigawd it's AstralFire!

No way in hell is Aisha in Chrono Trigger. Not THE Chrono Trigger, anyways.

[Gametime]

No way in hell is Aisha in Chrono Trigger. Not THE Chrono Trigger, anyways.

He may be thinking of Ayla. Aisha is a catgirl with an INCREDIBLY annoying dubbed voice (lolredundancy). Ayla is a cavewoman whose primary ability is to beat stuff up really really well.

The latter is awesome. The former? Significantly less so.

[UglyPanda]

He's probably referring to the PrCs being crappy. But yes, Glaive was in Dragon Magic. Along with the Wall of Force invocation, IIRC.


And the DFA isn't below average. It's equal or above, if barely. Metabreath feats and Entangling Exhalation.I'm getting senile in my young age. And DFA screws up my memory. I keep forgetting what is supposed to be a DFA ability and what is supposed to be a Dragon Shaman ability. Did we really need two of these classes? Sure they fill different niches, but did they both have to be dragon flavored? It makes it hard to keep track of which is which. I was sure up to today that Fivefold Breath was a Dragon Shaman ability.

[BeholderMage]

Anyone can think of a work of fiction that was at least decent and involved an elf (or elves) as a notable element. The only counterpart for catgirls that comes to mind is Outlaw Star, and she was easily the worst part of the show. I just don't see the appeal.

"I'm a human! But I have freaky ears on my head and do diabetes-inducing things with cat noises! n.n"

Catfolk aren't Catgirls though. They are feline humanoids, sure, they have fur, tails, cat ears, cat teeth, but they're as complete a melding of human and cat as Lizard folk with lizards, or merfolk with fish.

[Longcat]

Catfolk aren't Catgirls though. They are feline humanoids, sure, they have fur, tails, cat ears, cat teeth, but they're as complete a melding of human and cat as Lizard folk with lizards, or merfolk with fish.

They are western-style catgirls. Not Nekomimi, but still catgirls nonetheless.

[BeholderMage]

western style catgirls?

so... completely irrelevant to the catgirl hate?

[Longcat]

western style catgirls?

so... completely irrelevant to the catgirl hate?

They still die whenever someone conjures Anti-Osmonium. Besides, they're on the same Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catgirl) page, so I guess they belong in the same category.

[chiasaur11]

Well, Schrödinger was pretty awesome.

And not awesome. AT THE SAME TIME!

[BeholderMage]

They still die whenever someone conjures Anti-Osmonium. Besides, they're on the same Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catgirl) page, so I guess they belong in the same category.

so, what, you hate merfolk and lizardfolk too?

What exactly is the problem you have with catgirls?
That they're "weeaboo"? Then don't count western style.
That they're inexplicably popular? tough. That's a lame reason to hate something.
That they're "da dreaded furries!1!!!111!!"? so what?

[Lycanthromancer]

Fabricate requires a craft check to make pretty stuff so if your wizard is prepared to live in a castle with rough furniture or spend all his ranks in the craft skill you could probably get a castle for free. But since the landlord feat gives you everything for free anyway and you could have the finest craftsmen available furnish your house I don't think it's too bad. Even if you want to build your own castle or make things cheaper SBG still helps you figure out how the finished product might look like.

Any wizard that can cast mid-level spells is going to have a really nice Int anyway, and Craft is an Int skill. I can take a wizard with a starting Int-roll of 8 and end with it in the mid-40s by level 14 or so.

It's not even hard.

And that's for anything fancy. Smooth stone walls are easy; the rest can be done by taking 10 on Craft checks and/or illusions.

Wizards are tier-1 for a reason.

[deuxhero]

I don't know what's worse... Elves, Catgirls, or Half-Elf Catgirls?

Elves. Catgirls don't boost about their mental superiority when they have mental growth at 1/7th the pace of a human.

[DragoonWraith]

He may be thinking of Ayla. Aisha is a catgirl with an INCREDIBLY annoying dubbed voice (lolredundancy). Ayla is a cavewoman whose primary ability is to beat stuff up really really well.

The latter is awesome. The former? Significantly less so.
This. Holy crap, I can't believe I screwed that up. Haven't played CT in far too long.

Actually, I can't really comment on Aisha. I have no idea who she is.

[Thurbane]

1) I love Cityscape, & I think it's useful; one of my top 5 books, actually. But I know that I'm in the minority.

2) I also like RoD, but the general consensus is it's the least useful race-splat.
1) I'm going to chime in as another Cityscape fan.

2) RoD is probably my most used "Races of" book. Maybe it's because I love playing humans. Plus it's got 1/2 Ogres and Mongrelfolk, two of my fave old school races (I played quite a few 1/2 Ogres in 1E). I love the Chameleon PrC, and Zarus is probably my favorite "non-core" god.

I'm getting senile in my young age. And DFA screws up my memory. I keep forgetting what is supposed to be a DFA ability and what is supposed to be a Dragon Shaman ability. Did we really need two of these classes? Sure they fill different niches, but did they both have to be dragon flavored? It makes it hard to keep track of which is which. I was sure up to today that Fivefold Breath was a Dragon Shaman ability.
True - the first thing I thought when I saw the sneak peek of the DFA was "Wow, looks like someone wanted to play a gestalt Dragon Shaman//Warlorck, but thought it'd be cooler all in one class". :smalltongue:

[AstralFire]

so, what, you hate merfolk and lizardfolk too?

What exactly is the problem you have with catgirls?
That they're "weeaboo"? Then don't count western style.
That they're inexplicably popular? tough. That's a lame reason to hate something.
That they're "da dreaded furries!1!!!111!!"? so what?

My only problem with catfolk is that I have never seen anyone who asked me to play one who didn't immediately begin playing them like a vapid fanservice nekojin, so they... effectively are the same, to my displeasure. I have no issue with anthropomorphized animals; I loved Disney's Robin Hood and TMNT after all.

[Fax Celestis]

My only problem with catfolk is that I have never seen anyone who asked me to play one who didn't immediately begin playing them like a vapid fanservice nekojin, so they... effectively are the same, to my displeasure. I have no issue with anthropomorphized animals; I loved Disney's Robin Hood and TMNT after all.

So this (http://www.pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=3248)would be okay?

[AstralFire]

So this (http://www.pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=3248)would be okay?

Sure!texttexttext

[Inhuman Bot]

So, anyone seen the tracks for this lost train? :smalltongue:

[Optimystik]

I know they're not strictly catfolk, but I consider Rakshasa to be pure awesomesauce and they beat the pants off any number of snooty elves.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

My only problem with catfolk is that I have never seen anyone who asked me to play one who didn't immediately begin playing them like a vapid fanservice nekojin, so they... effectively are the same, to my displeasure. I have no issue with anthropomorphized animals; I loved Disney's Robin Hood and TMNT after all.I'm playing a Female Tibbit(race that can swap between cat and cat/hobbit) Summoner in my current game. Basically an invitation for lez Catgirl/Succubus pairing and general offensiveness and poor taste. However, she has yet to appear as anything other than a Siamese to the party, and basically rides around on the shoulder of a gorilla Demon posing as it's Familiar. Her combat style involves summoning a large number of bears/lions/eagles to rip the face off of everything in the general vicinity, then falling asleep.

Catpeople can be great, you just have to not be weeabo about it.

[AstralFire]

I can believe it! It just seems that what players I have that do want to be catfolk aren't of that type. Most of the players I've had who want to be anthropomorphic and give the race as a serious treatment seem to go for Shifter.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I can believe it! It just seems that what players I have that do want to be catfolk aren't of that type. Most of the players I've had who want to be anthropomorphic and give the race as a serious treatment seem to go for Shifter.If I was going to do melee, it would be canine or ursine of some sort. If I was going to do perverted, it would be based on a hyena. If I was going to do speedy, it would be squirrel. Basically, if they want to be cats, there's an issue. If they want to be anthropomorphic, let them pick anything, even cats.

[golentan]

On topic: I'm going to side with ghostwalk as single most overlooked book. I mention it and everyone in my groups asks "what, is it a third party book?"

No. No it is not.

Off topic:

I can take a wizard with a starting Int-roll of 8 and end with it in the mid-40s by level 14 or so.

How? They need to have a minimum int to cast spells, and mostly wind up getting enhancement bonuses that don't stack. I'm not ripping, I'm genuinely curious. I can just come up with +3 level, +6 item, maybe an extra +1 or 2 from tomes if you can swing it.

[Eldariel]

How? They need to have a minimum int to cast spells, and mostly wind up getting enhancement bonuses that don't stack. I'm not ripping, I'm genuinely curious. I can just come up with +3 level, +6 item, maybe an extra +1 or 2 from tomes if you can swing it.

Well, there's always Polymorph Any Object...

[golentan]

Well, there's always Polymorph Any Object...

Which the wiz can only swing if able to cast 8th level spells (almost out of reach until level 16 without tomes in this case, and definitely until level 15).

And it's very hard going through life as a young wizard with an int of 8. I think commoners almost have better class features, in that at least they're not carrying around an XP bomb.

[lesser_minion]

Which the wiz can only swing if able to cast 8th level spells (almost out of reach until level 16 without tomes in this case, and definitely until level 15).

And it's very hard going through life as a young wizard with an int of 8. I think commoners almost have better class features, in that at least they're not carrying around an XP bomb.

Familiars aren't compulsory.

For future reference, 'anti-osmonium' doesn't exist. Try anti-iridium.

Also note that conjuring it will not actually nuke anything.

[Eldariel]

Which the wiz can only swing if able to cast 8th level spells (almost out of reach until level 16 without tomes in this case, and definitely until level 15).

Eh, purchasing a casting is far easier than that; easily doable by level 6.

[Thurbane]

...what happened to the topic at hand? :smallfrown:

[Ormur]

Any wizard that can cast mid-level spells is going to have a really nice Int anyway, and Craft is an Int skill. I can take a wizard with a starting Int-roll of 8 and end with it in the mid-40s by level 14 or so.

It's not even hard.

And that's for anything fancy. Smooth stone walls are easy; the rest can be done by taking 10 on Craft checks and/or illusions.

Wizards are tier-1 for a reason.

Whoa, I'm playing a 13th level wizard with a +6 int modifier, it would be +7 if I'd have rolled 18. A 1st level artisan using the elite array with skill focus craft and full ranks would have a craft modifier of +9. The artisans making fancy stuff would probably be of a higher level so usually I'd still expect hired artisans to craft nicer things. But it's all flavour anyway the economics of D&D are crazy enough for the prices in SBG to be completely arbitrary. PC's are supposed to take the landlord feat and the DM just gives NPC's what he thinks fits the setting.

I guess it's use is completely optional but I enjoy building new wings to my wizard's tower as I level up and having rules for wondrous architecture. In fact that's probably the most useful part of the SBG for DM's building castles for their NPC kings and BBEG.

[Lycanthromancer]

How? They need to have a minimum int to cast spells, and mostly wind up getting enhancement bonuses that don't stack. I'm not ripping, I'm genuinely curious. I can just come up with +3 level, +6 item, maybe an extra +1 or 2 from tomes if you can swing it.

Look here, oh padawan. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6236.msg206315#new)

[golentan]

Look here, oh padawan. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6236.msg206315#new)

Again, you need a minimum int of 18 to cast PAO. If you purchase it, you're out cash. And to be an outsider, you're not going to be getting the duration permanent. And even if you do you're at constant risk of a single dispel attempt or AMF ruining your life FOREVAH!!! (well, until you can afford another casting).

[Lycanthromancer]

Again, you need a minimum int of 18 to cast PAO. If you purchase it, you're out cash. And to be an outsider, you're not going to be getting the duration permanent. And even if you do you're at constant risk of a single dispel attempt or AMF ruining your life FOREVAH!!! (well, until you can afford another casting).

Either buy a scroll and make the CL check yourself, or cast lesser planar ally, get a djinn, then wish for a polymorph any object or two on yourself.

Big deal if it gets dispelled. Get another djinn and do it again.