Worst PrC

[Myrmex]

What? It doesn't matter if your damage is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!! if nothing ever takes that 9k damage.


You're wrong. Unless you have a way to make your attack roll irrelevant (Wraithstrike, True Strike) or can guarantee the attack roll is a Nat 20, then your attack bonus means just as much as the damage bonus.

Try reading the class abilities before you attack me, please.

[nekomata2]

Just one thing on the troll argument..

A papercut probably won't kill me, but it'll hurt.

Getting cut with an axe probably won't kill a troll, but it'd hurt.

The axe would be nonlethal damage, so comparitively, its like being punched in the gut (hard though), as opposed to having your flesh melted off. I'd wanna hurt the fleshmelter.

[Milskidasith]

Myremex, I'm pretty sure the Psionic/Magic transparancy means the Forsaker cannot use Psionics or psionic items.

[Myrmex]

Myremex, I'm pretty sure the Psionic/Magic transparancy means the Forsaker cannot use Psionics or psionic items.

Why not just look the rule up? While certainly a good RAI ruling if you want to keep the Forsaker useless, it's not RAW:

Combining Psionic And Magical Effects

The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.
Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

[Asbestos]

In an average game, the Forsaker is awful. In a no, or low magic game, though, it's not bad. Also, it just gets 1/2 healing from cure spells, sorta like a warforged.

Forsaker also gets a level 1 entry (with flaws). Ranger 1/Forsaker6/Foe Hunter 4 gets SR 30 (vs. favored enemy: arcane casters). 'Course, that means you can never get healed with magic. Oh well. You're also level 11 and can't teleport or fly. But assuming that those aren't a big deal in a no casters game, you're not doing so bad.


Wait, so you made a caster-proof character in a low-magic game with no casters? Wow, awesome. :smallamused:

[Myrmex]

Wait, so you made a caster-proof character in a low-magic game with no casters? Wow, awesome. :smallamused:

There are all sorts of monsters and evil wizards with casting, broheim.

[Thurbane]

Can the Forsaker be Good? Is so, sounds like he needs...VoP! :smallbiggrin:

Hmm, except that means he loses out on even mundane armor or weapons...

[Gnaeus]

Just one thing on the troll argument..

A papercut probably won't kill me, but it'll hurt.

Getting cut with an axe probably won't kill a troll, but it'd hurt.

The bigger problem on the troll argument is that Trolls are under-CR for even a level 1 Dwarf Defender, and by the time you finish the class the appropriate monster lists are filled with intelligent casters who fly or teleport.

[Inhuman Bot]

The bigger problem on the troll argument is that Trolls are under-CR for even a level 1 Dwarf Defender, and by the time you finish the class the appropriate monster lists are filled with intelligent casters who fly or teleport.

Not arguing that. I don't like DDs, and wouldn't even if they were more powerfull.

[Lycanthromancer]

Forsaker also gets a level 1 entry (with flaws). Ranger 1/Forsaker6/Foe Hunter 4 gets SR 30 (vs. favored enemy: arcane casters). 'Course, that means you can never get healed with magic. Oh well. You're also level 11 and can't teleport or fly. But assuming that those aren't a big deal in a no casters game, you're not doing so bad.

You mean, in a game where a forsaker can't destroy magic items (because they're so very rare, and the other players would kill him), and therefore loses his class abilities?

[Myrmex]

You mean, in a game where a forsaker can't destroy magic items (because they're so very rare, and the other players would kill him), and therefore loses his class abilities?

Only two class abilities; damage reduction and the ability to overcome DR/magic.

Scrolls, wands, and staves, as well as any evil swords, would be fair game to smash.

[Optimystik]

1) Cast Magic Weapon on a dagger.
2) Destroy the enhanced dagger.
3) ???
4) Profit?

[Grumman]

Cave stalker is fun and the Dread Fang has potential, if you could just persuade your DM to give it SA and/or make it into a level 5 entry PrC.
With LA buyoff you can enter Dread Fang of Lolth with 5 class levels, but it does take some work.


Fun fact: Atheism is not a requirement for being an Ur-Priest. Worshipping a god might make it difficult to find an Ur-Priest to train from, but as you can convert to Kiaransaleeism after becoming an Ur-Priest, the progression is plausible.
Or if you pick a god to worship who would approve of training their "clerics" to steal power from other gods. Someone like Vecna or Wee Jas.


1) Cast Magic Weapon on a dagger.
2) Destroy the enhanced dagger.
3) ???
4) Profit?
Step 3 is "Get banned from the game for being a munchkin".

[Lycanthromancer]

Step 3 is "Get banned from the game for being a munchkin".
"Using the rules to your advantage" and "cheating" are two totally different things, methinks.

[UglyPanda]

Forsaker can't cast Magic Weapon or use magic at all. That's the whole (incredibly stupid) point of the class.

Not sure if getting an ally to cast it would count as receiving the spell though.

[Kylarra]

1) Cast Magic Weapon on a dagger.
2) Destroy the enhanced dagger.
3) ???
4) Profit?Still not worth anything though. Forsaker requires you to destroy magic items of a certain value. :smalltongue:

[Myrmex]

Still not worth anything though. Forsaker requires you to destroy magic items of a certain value. :smalltongue:

If it's masterwork, he could do it.

He needs to destroy a minimum of 100 gp/day to break DR/magic. His destruction mechanic is awful, though.

[Kylarra]

If it's masterwork, he could do it.

He needs to destroy a minimum of 100 gp/day to break DR/magic. His destruction mechanic is awful, though.I dunno, it seems to me that it'd be something a DM would let slide once for novelty, but after that get you slapped.

[chiasaur11]

I dunno, it seems to me that it'd be something a DM would let slide once for novelty, but after that get you slapped.

You're playing a forsaker.

Any DM who'd begrudge you that little trick considering how poor the class is...

[Myrmex]

I dunno, it seems to me that it'd be something a DM would let slide once for novelty, but after that get you slapped.

Yeah. Sort of like how after you cast your first successful save-or-die, all the monsters' saves magically increase by 3 or 4.

[Kylarra]

You're playing a forsaker.

Any DM who'd begrudge you that little trick considering how poor the class is..."I want special abilities, but I don't want to actually pay attention to the drawbacks".



Yeah. Sort of like how after you cast your first successful save-or-die, all the monsters' saves magically increase by 3 or 4.:smalltongue: Depending on the situation, this may be appropriate! Albeit not midcombat.

[Myrmex]

"I want special abilities, but I don't want to actually pay attention to the drawbacks".

It's a legitimate circumvention of a drawback, though.

[Tavar]

And it's a major drawback for what seem to be minor benefits.

[Kylarra]

It's a legitimate circumvention of a drawback, though.Eh, not really.



Forsake Magic: In addition to avoiding all use of spellcasting, spell-like abilities, and magic items, the forsaker must also refuse any benefits from others' magic

If one of the others secretly cast magic weapon and then gave him the dagger so he could ritualistically destroy it to power his class abilities in a pinch, I'd say it's okay. If you make a ritual of it to obviate your drawback completely? You're benefiting from the magic of others.


And it's a major drawback for what seem to be minor benefits.Yeah, I'm not gonna argue that it isn't a craptastic class.

[Lycanthromancer]

"I want special abilities, but I don't want to actually pay attention to the drawbacks".
Forgoing magic altogether is more than enough of a drawback, thankyouverymuch.

[Kylarra]

Forgoing magic altogether is more than enough of a drawback, thankyouverymuch.Then you talk to your DM about being able to forgo the whole destroying magic items thing. Don't try to cheese your way out of it.

[lesser_minion]

You're playing a forsaker.

Any DM who'd begrudge you that little trick considering how poor the class is...

I would.

Playing a bad class is not an excuse to pull that kind of trick. Whether you're Tier 5, 7, 42 or 56.

If your character is too weak because you felt a bad class worked well with the fluff, work with your DM to fix it. Don't try to just walk over the spirit of the rules.

Cheese comes in more flavours than Pun-Pun, and more tiers than 1st and 0th.

[sentaku]

Player's Guide to Faerun. Page 188. Yathrinshe.

Prerequisites:
1. Needs to be drow.
2. Needs to be female.
3. Needs to do nasty stuff with corpses (Lichloved).
4. Needs to be able to cast Animate Dead as a divine spell and Spectral Hand as an arcane spell.

Results:
10 levels

Bad BAB
6/10 Divine Spellcasting.
6/10 Arcane Spellcasting.
The ability to add your (stunted) caster levels together for arcane spells.
Continued Rebuke Undead (which was still reduced by your wizard/sorcerer multiclass, probably).
The power to sing people into sadness for a penalty to their attack rolls. Once per day. For three rounds, tops.
Death Ward.
Any creature you kill automaticaly becomes a zombie under your control.
Wail of the Banshee as a Su ability once per day. No limit of creatures.


Top that!

What a great villain. Hire a party to kill a great wyrm dragon of your choice of color and join them making sure to be the one that kills it. (I suggest knitting during the rest of the battle) Now you have a zombie great wyrm dragon. Feel free to replace wrym dragon with something else if better.

[Stormthorn]

Also, I'd just like to mention that the Fleshwarper from Lords of Madness is a nutsack to qualify for.

Yes, but with that PrC you can have as many nutsacks anywhere you want.

That one is really more of a flavor choice i think. I mean, how many PrCs suck form a roleplay point of view?

[AstralFire]

Then you talk to your DM about being able to forgo the whole destroying magic items thing. Don't try to cheese your way out of it.


I would.

Playing a bad class is not an excuse to pull that kind of trick. Whether you're Tier 5, 7, 42 or 56.

If your character is too weak because you felt a bad class worked well with the fluff, work with your DM to fix it. Don't try to just walk over the spirit of the rules.

Cheese comes in more flavours than Pun-Pun, and more tiers than 1st and 0th.

Quoted for Wisdom.

Don't answer bad mechanics with more bad mechanics.

[Aldizog]

"Using the rules to your advantage" and "cheating" are two totally different things, methinks.
I consider violating the spirit of the rules and finding ways to exploit the letter of the rules, rather than flat-out cheating, to be the definition of munchkinry. YMMV.

[SurlySeraph]

What a great villain. Hire a party to kill a great wyrm dragon of your choice of color and join them making sure to get in the killing blow. Now you have a zombie great wyrm dragon, kill party and repeat.

You have to be a drow necromancer priestess of a very Chaotic Evil godess. That is not conducive to getting a party to trust you.

[Stormthorn]

You have to be a drow necromancer priestess of a very Chaotic Evil godess. That is not conducive to getting a party to trust you.

Shapechange

Undetectable Alignment

"Why yes, I am a cleric of Ilmater!"

[Kris Strife]

You have to be a drow necromancer priestess of a very Chaotic Evil godess. That is not conducive to getting a party to trust you.

Thats why you lie.

[sentaku]

You have to be a drow necromancer priestess of a very Chaotic Evil godess. That is not conducive to getting a party to trust you.

Your a drow, duel wield a couple of scimitar and claim to be rebelling against the evil nature of your race. (also have an undetectable alignment)

[Lycanthromancer]

Your a drow, duel wield a couple of scimitar and claim to be rebelling against the evil nature of your race. (and find way to make your self have an undetectable alignment)

But then the players will kill YOU (and then their characters will kill your character, on principle).

[lesser_minion]

Your a drow, duel wield a couple of scimitar and claim to be rebelling against the evil nature of your race. (also make your self have an undetectable alignment)

I'd suggest going with the "lost girl in the woods scam" personally.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'd suggest going with the "lost girl in the woods scam" personally.

Say you're a regular elf who gained superpowers through a nuclear magical accident after bitten by a radioactive pseudonatural spider?

Or maybe it was an alchemical accident at Ye Olde Photo Hut, with its photo-negatives and that.

[Kyrthain]

Thats why you lie.

For some reason I love this quote. :smallbiggrin:

[Leon]

Say you're a regular elf who gained superpowers through a nuclear magical accident after bitten by a radioactive pseudonatural spider?


Driderman, Driderman, Does what ever a drider can.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Bad 1) Green. Star. Adept. +over9000. OMGs so terrible.. terrible! That one made me puke some green stuff myself when I read it.

Bad 2) Shining Blade of Heironeous. A PRC that focuses on lightning enchanted javelins. ooooohboy! The only thing it has going for it is spellcaster progression.

Bad 3) Ollam. I don't get it. I just don't get it. Why would anyone want to be a dwarven sunday school teacher?

Poor Execution 1) Bloodclaw Master has a lot of flavor and some good abilities, but to complete the class it needs maneuver progression. It actually plays surprisingly well with a Warblade/Dervish build (with Kukri). In the same book, the Ruby Knight Vindicator is less than stellar.

[AstralFire]

Bad 3) Ollam. I don't get it. I just don't get it. Why would anyone want to be a dwarven sunday school teacher?

School teachers are hot. Female dwarves are hot.

[Lycanthromancer]

School teachers are hot. Female dwarves are hot.

Not MY teachers.

Certainly not any of the male teachers.

The female ones were kinda gag-worthy, too, and I don't even swing that way.

[AstralFire]

Not MY teachers.

Certainly not any of the male teachers.

The female ones were kinda gag-worthy, too, and I don't even swing that way.

My favorite professor my last two years in college was... um... really nice. -cough-

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

I had one schoolteacher that was worthy of some mary kay laterneau (sp?) action but sadly she was all married and not interested.

Too early?:smallconfused:

[Stormthorn]

I had one schoolteacher that was worthy of some mary kay laterneau (sp?) action but sadly she was all married and not interested.

Too early?:smallconfused:

My Senior year of high school i had a male teacher that even I admit was sorta handsome. The girls all talked about him. Sometimes i would hum "Dont stand so close to me" when they did that, but i dont think any of them got it.
He was some sort of futbol type dude who won a car scoring a goal during halftime at a major game he attended. He also played when he was younger.
He is married and has kids. But he looks like 15 years younger than he is.

He was half
http://thegoodparts.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/8-snowdon-jeremy-irons.jpg

and half
http://www.ohio.edu/kennedylecture/images/Jeff-Corwin.jpg



but all sexy.
So what were we talking about when i derailed the thread....?

PrCs! Yes. What is that Green Somethingorwhatsit Adept?

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Yes, worst PrC's ever. I blame me. I brought up the dwarven sunday school teacher. :smalleek:

Hmmm... Cancer mage I think was referenced.. that one is really bad.

[Foryn Gilnith]

That one is really more of a flavor choice i think. I mean, how many PrCs suck form a roleplay point of view?

Almost all of them, because you don't need a PrC to roleplay. You don't need DD levels to defend, Forsaker levels to be a rapidly anti-magic fellow, Outcast Champion levels to defend your minority, or Yathrinshee levels to be... well, a yathrinshee. Consequently, prestige classes offer very little from a roleplay point of view, unless they have some dramatic new ability such as sevenfold veils.

[Mongoose87]

Yes, worst PrC's ever. I blame me. I brought up the dwarven sunday school teacher. :smalleek:

Hmmm... Cancer mage I think was referenced.. that one is really bad.

Cancer mage is a different sort of bad.

[Lycanthromancer]

The ectopic adept (from CPsi) is terribad.

It only exists to give credence to the stupid nerfs they spurted all over astral construct, as well as the horrible, horrible ectopic form feats.

Basically, it allows you to ignore the nerfs if you take it, which, technically, doesn't even work as well as the constructs did pre-CPsi.

[Draken]

The ectopic adept (from CPsi) is terribad.

It only exists to give credence to the stupid nerfs they spurted all over astral construct, as well as the horrible, horrible ectopic form feats.

Basically, it allows you to ignore the nerfs if you take it, which, technically, doesn't even work as well as the constructs did pre-CPsi.

The Constructor in the web article does a better job at helping you ignore the nerfs and was made as a boost to Astral Construct, not a counternerf. :smalltongue:

[Lycanthromancer]

The Constructor in the web article does a better job at helping you ignore the nerfs and was made as a boost to Astral Construct, not a counternerf. :smalltongue:

Which is why 4-legs constructor good, 2-legs ectopic adept bad.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Yes, but with that PrC you can have as many nutsacks anywhere you want.

That one is really more of a flavor choice i think. I mean, how many PrCs suck form a roleplay point of view?

I dunno, Fleshwarper would be pretty cool in a mad scientist sort of way, and a lot of the Silthilar grafts aren't terribly obvious.

If one could qualify for it earlier, it would be like a scalpel-wielding artificer. Fun times! But the need for a familiar and all those blasted Heal ranks really make it a chore.

You know, there are so many prestige classes in 3.5, I cannot help but wonder if any of them have never been played by anyone, ever.

Anyone want to guess if any PRC's have never seen the light of play? My vote goes towards Storm Disciple. The class puts people to sleep when they read it. I can't imagine any reason anyone would play one, ever.

[peacenlove]

Well not worst in quality or something, but a prestige class NO-ONE would play is the child of shadow in the ToM.

Not bad as a class, you lose a caster level but you can turn incorporeal for minutes and you have constant blur as well as progressing some of your shadowcaster class features. BUT shadowcasters are rarely seen ( who wouldn't play a straight sorcerer with the same flavor :smallamused: ) and although that class can be entered by arcane or divine casters, well we know how short of options are they :smallwink:

Also the next prestige class on the book is Master of Shadow (a sturdier shadowcaster with a capable servant at levels 10-15) and the Nocturmancer (Wizard / shadowcaster combo, double 9 casting at 20th level with mystic theurge and can has OK anti magic abilities on his own).

It just doesn't bring something new to the table IMO.

[Gametime]

In the same book, the Ruby Knight Vindicator is less than stellar.

There's nothing wrong with the RKV (unless you mean using the ambiguous wording of the 7th level ability to gain absurd amounts of swift actions in a round, in which case yeah, that's lame).

Assuming you limit that ability to 1/round, it's a very respectable dual-progression maneuver + divine class. Not usually as powerful as a full caster Clericzilla, but more interesting to play.