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oxinabox
2009-11-01, 09:21 PM
So what is the worst PrC? for what it was intended for.


I'm putting some money on Tactical Soldier from MiH made for fighters
Enter at lvl 6 min as requires +5 BaB

It's best ability is Flanker wich it gets at lvl 1.
YOu may sellect any adjacent square, and treat it as your position, for purposed of flanking. this include positions such as inside walls etc.

but the real cake taker is it's lvl 5 ability (wich is for a player whoi is lvl 11)
"Offensive Strike (Ex): Starting at 5th
level, in times of urgency a tactical
soldier can lower all her defenses to
make a very aggressive attack. When
making an offensive strike, the tactical soldier gains
a +4 bonus on melee attack rolls and damage rolls for 1 round.
Until her next turn, however, she is wide open to physical and
magical attacks. All successful attack rolls made against the tacti-
cal soldier are automatic threats, and all saving throws the tactical
soldier makes against spells automatically fail."

at lvl 11 you get an extra +4 attack/damage for one round. (AMAZING POWER OMG!!!)
the cost?
any attack that hits (ray, ranged weapon, melee), automatically threatens a critical.
You AUTO-FAIL all svaing throws against spells. AUTOFAIL

at lvl 11 that included death effects, as your lvl increase, well look, More deatheffects.
or things that might as well be death effects.
charm person takes a large penatly to the save dc if you're in combat against the caster side. but that's ok, AUTOFAIL saving throw

It's a terible PrC...

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-01, 09:22 PM
Well, at least it has one good ability. That makes it functional as a dip, and hardly terrible.

ErrantX
2009-11-01, 09:49 PM
Green. Star. Adept.

-X

oxinabox
2009-11-01, 09:51 PM
Well, at least it has one good ability. That makes it functional as a dip, and hardly terrible.

except that it has prerequisits:
feats: Combat reflex, power attack, and cleave,

Compared to the Adaptable Flanker feat: (all of wich are fighter feats, soame as the above))
Vexing flanker, combat reflexes.

And adaptable flanker: allows you to count as being in all squares you threaten (not just one you nominate).


I gess tactical soldier might be good for really specialised and feat short rogue build, that happens to have power attack and cleave.
Theres proably somehting a fighter can do with flanking...

I guess if a PrC is going ot have only one decent ability we can be greatful thaty put it a the starts.


still usign offensive srike is basically suidicide.
Decription of an npc doing an offencif strike:
"He lashes out, leaving himself completely open, it looks like you could do a hell of a lot of damage if you attacked him. and he's so fucus on the attack i doubt he'll be able to safve himself from any spell. He seems to be relying on the fact thant this attack is so powerful you won't be a treat to him anymore"
he does... 20 pts of damage. oh wait make that 24"
are you dead?

AshDesert
2009-11-01, 09:53 PM
I know that it get's a lot of hate, but Dwarven Defender. "Look at me! I can stand in one spot! Good thing I wasted 8 feats for 10 hp, some STR bonuses, and some crappy DR!"

FMArthur
2009-11-01, 09:59 PM
Risen Martyr, BoED. Must die and be raised to enter, and receives the worst BAB, no casting advancement, Protection From Evil and gradually gains certain energy immunities. Has a Code of Conduct that instantly destroys you and sends you off to face judgement in the upper planes if violated. Cannot multiclass, at all. The capstone KILLS YOU AND TAKES YOUR WHOLE BODY TO THE UPPER PLANES, requiring your teammates to seek out a True Resurrection if they (for some reason) want to bring your useless ass back to life. Also has a hilarious image in the book.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-01, 09:59 PM
The metamind.

Its whole schtick is that it's supposed to get more manifestations of low-level powers than pretty much anyone else.

Thing is, if you take a kalashtar psion10/metamind10 and give it Psionic Talent as every feat, you'll still have fewer power points than a generic psion20 with the same Int, AND you're stuck with a manifester level 5 levels lower and have fewer and lower powers known.

It sucks.

The only way to make it remotely viable is to take it all the way through, then use a Quickened timeless body each round, forever. Then it's broken as hell.

It's either 10000% or 0%. Nothing in between. No, not even then.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-01, 10:01 PM
Compared to the Adaptable Flanker feat:

Do they stack, maybe?

DragoonWraith
2009-11-01, 10:01 PM
I know that it get's a lot of hate, but Dwarven Defender. "Look at me! I can stand in one spot! Good thing I wasted 8 feats for 10 hp, some STR bonuses, and some crappy DR!"
Eight feats? It requires three...

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-01, 10:02 PM
Eight feats? It requires three...

And costs you 5 for not taking fighter.

Xenogears
2009-11-01, 10:03 PM
Risen Martyr, BoED. Must die and be raised to enter, and receives the worst BAB, no casting advancement, Protection From Evil and gradually gains certain energy immunities. Has a Code of Conduct that instantly destroys you and sends you off to face judgement in the upper planes. Cannot multiclass, at all. The capstone KILLS YOU AND TAKES YOUR WHOLE BODY TO THE UPPER PLANES, requiring your teammates to seek out a True Resurrection if they (for some reason) want to bring your useless ass back to life. Also has a hilarious image in the book.

See I disagree about the uselessness of this PrC. It only sucks if you assume that Rez spells are common or even available. It makes a great PrC if a PC is very plot important and dies unexpectedly and there are no Rez spells in that world. Now it is suddenly useful. It's not supposed to be used unless it is a case of the PC can't be revived and either the Player, party, or plot is very attached to the PC.

tyckspoon
2009-11-01, 10:05 PM
I could see that Offensive Strike ability being a very nice addition to quite a few melee builds. Immunity to critical hits is usually expensive, but otherwise not all that hard to get, and once you have it you can Offensive Strike against other melee opponents with abandon. And spell auto-fail is bad, but it is just spells.. so don't use it against known casters. You can still save against monster special attacks, traps, and everything else that might force a save. And the prereq feats you've listed aren't bad feats; except for Cleave, they're ones you would take anyway for most good melee builds. Consider an AoO-counter or reach-lockdown build using it. It's better than you think, although something you have to build around carefully.

My personal vote for Worst PrC is the Shining Blade. You get the ability to add cheap weapon enchants to your sword. Temporarily. A strictly limited number of times/day. And you can't stack them together. At least you get to keep up your BAB.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-11-01, 10:07 PM
Dragon Disciple has a great idea behind it, and I wouldn't call it worst, per se, but... bonus spells, and physicals buffs.

What great PrC for a Sorc to take. :smalltongue:

CockroachTeaParty
2009-11-01, 10:12 PM
I've never been able to figure out a good way to use Arcane Archer...

Dwarven Defender really sucks, Green Star Adept's a (strangely popular) joke, Metamind utterly fails...

The Bloodclaw Master from ToB seems to suck pretty hard. It's even worse if you're playing a shifter, if I recall.

Complete Psionic has some of the worst, from an uninspired/fluff perspective. Storm Disciple might be the prestige class I have the least interest in every playing, forever.

Also, I'd just like to mention that the Fleshwarper from Lords of Madness is a nutsack to qualify for.

FMArthur
2009-11-01, 10:14 PM
See I disagree about the uselessness of this PrC. It only sucks if you assume that Rez spells are common or even available. It makes a great PrC if a PC is very plot important and dies unexpectedly and there are no Rez spells in that world. Now it is suddenly useful. It's not supposed to be used unless it is a case of the PC can't be revived and either the Player, party, or plot is very attached to the PC.

Oh. I was mistaken; I somehow misread the text to say you need to have been raised to enter the class. And yet because of this, Risen Martyr's existence actually trivializes death in a way because all you have to do is die protecting others or defending an ideal - pretty common stuff when fighting evil. Further... this class is so lacking in useful abilities that even in parties with the lowest optimization it will stand out as being weak.

As a DM, I wouldn't want a plot-important character gimped so badly. As a player, I'd rather ask to make a new character than dampen the significance of my heroic death and have to watch as he becomes more and more useless as the campaign progresses.

Kylarra
2009-11-01, 10:20 PM
Survivor from Savage Species is pretty bad, since tanking is not a great strategy in 3.X.

Starscream
2009-11-01, 10:27 PM
Blighter. Goodness gracious does that one suck.

In order to get your daily allotment of spells, you need to destroy a certain amount of living plants. And not an amount you could carry with you, either.

Better hope you aren't adventuring in A) a town, B) a desert, C) a tundra or D) AN ACTUAL DUNGEON.

And even if you go through with it you'll never get as many spells as a pure druid, as it resets your spellcasting, and can't be entered until 6th level. You eventually get one 9th level spell per day. Joy.

And what do you get in return for all this suck? Well, you can wild shape into skeletons, which means no constitution score and generally lower natural armor (and your d8 HD doesn't change, so good bloody luck). And you can cast animate dead, but only on animals so that's inferior to wizards and clerics and even warlocks in every way.

Oh, and you can also talk to roadkill. Yeah. Once per day you can find a dead animal and talk to it. Because dead animals have lots of valuable information.

Animefunkmaster
2009-11-01, 10:28 PM
To go along with the dragon disciple vein, its wording seems to disqualify itself at the paramount ability.

(I kid I kid, would never happen in a game)

FMArthur
2009-11-01, 10:41 PM
Blighter. Goodness gracious does that one suck.

In order to get your daily allotment of spells, you need to destroy a certain amount of plant matter. And not an amount you could carry with you, either.

Better hope you aren't adventuring in A) a town, B) a desert, C) a tundra or D) AN ACTUAL DUNGEON.

On the other hand, when you do meet the circumstance requirements, you are a full caster who gets 9th level spells in 9 levels. Finding a forest or grassland or any area that has more than sparse vegetation isn't really that hard if Teleport and Plane Shift become available in your party, and even finding a tiny weed in between buildings is enough for a UMD'd Plant Growth spell, which is easily enough to power your class's spells.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-11-01, 10:43 PM
I find it amusing that most of these "worst class ever" choices are all PrC's meant for NPC's. Not all, but many of these were intended to be flavorful tools for the DM to give life to his campaign, rather than to be OMFG teh pwnage. Besides, in most campaigns these classes are usable if not particularly exceptional.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-01, 10:48 PM
Being an NPC doesn't mean you are suddenly allowed to be ineffective. People other than PCs have roles and obligations too; and being a reputedly powerful individual with glaring weaknesses isn't necessarily flavorful.

Starscream
2009-11-01, 10:52 PM
On the other hand, when you do meet the circumstance requirements, you are a full caster who gets 9th level spells in 9 levels. Finding a forest or grassland or any area that has more than sparse vegetation isn't really that hard if Teleport and Plane Shift become available in your party, and even finding a tiny weed in between buildings is enough for a UMD'd Plant Growth spell, which is easily enough to power your class's spells.

Yes, but because of the entry requirements you will get your single 9th level spell at character level 16, minimum. That's one level before everyone else does. And by the time you hit 20, a real druid will have 4 a day. You will still have just one.

As for Teleporting and Plane Shifting, fine, but better hope someone in the party has those spells and is willing to share, because they aren't on your list. And while getting a wand of Plant Growth might technically work, it makes no sense from a fluff perspective. Big bad enemy of nature makes plants grow big and then kills them. Scary.

And all that is just to make the class playable. Making it good is pretty much impossible. Your spells suck, your wild shapes suck, your other abilities are pointless, you lose your animal companion. I can't think of a better way to make a druid worthless.

Salt_Crow
2009-11-01, 10:55 PM
I don't have the book with me at the moment, but a PrC in one of the Complete series that focuses on using "entropy" is pretty horrendous too.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-01, 10:58 PM
You mean Complete Divine's Entropomancer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040502a)? Heh, yeah, the abilities are kinda neat but about as dangerous to you and your party as they are to your enemy, and you lose 5 spellcasting levels to do it...

The_Snark
2009-11-01, 11:05 PM
Blighter. Goodness gracious does that one suck.

It's not a great class, but that's mostly because its spell list is so much smaller. It sucks for the first couple levels, but by the time you finish you're getting access to 9th-level spells at level 15, which is pretty good. Sure, you have to suck the life out of plants to regain your spells every day, but if you've devoted your life to sucking power out of the natural world, why on earth would you bother with cities and dungeons that can't give you power?

Plus, at-will fire magic at level 2. It's not incredibly powerful in a fight, but I know players who would kill for that (and DMs who would ban it). If you absolutely have to deal with cities, this ability helps out.

My personal vote for the worst is the Storm Disciple, from Complete Psionic. A class that harnesses the awesome power of storms should be cool, and yet it is not. The fluff is lacklustre, with no explanation for why it's a psionic class. The mechanics are poor, and incredibly dull. I'm going to have to second CockroachTeaParty—I know of no D&D class, prestige or otherwise, that interests me less than this one.

chiasaur11
2009-11-01, 11:12 PM
It's not a great class, but that's mostly because its spell list is so much smaller. It sucks for the first couple levels, but by the time you finish you're getting access to 9th-level spells at level 15, which is pretty good. Sure, you have to suck the life out of plants to regain your spells every day, but if you've devoted your life to sucking power out of the natural world, why on earth would you bother with cities and dungeons that can't give you power?

Plus, at-will fire magic at level 2. It's not incredibly powerful in a fight, but I know players who would kill for that (and DMs who would ban it). If you absolutely have to deal with cities, this ability helps out.


A good lesson for us all: A Druid nerfed beyond reason?

Still better than most classes.

Catch
2009-11-01, 11:13 PM
You mean Complete Divine's Entropomancer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040502a)? Heh, yeah, the abilities are kinda neat but about as dangerous to you and your party as they are to your enemy, and you lose 5 spellcasting levels to do it...

To make it "viable," I'd probably drop the hit die to d6, BAB to poor, and give most of the caster levels back. It's got a wizard-y feel to it anyway, but I could see losing at least one caster level for Control Sphere.

deuxhero
2009-11-01, 11:14 PM
Survivor from Savage Species is pretty bad, since tanking is not a great strategy in 3.X.

It's a commoner entry PRC.

AstralFire
2009-11-01, 11:30 PM
Dragon Disciple. Weak mechanically, boring flavor, just poorly thoughtout all around.
Horizon Walker. Really boring for nine of its ten levels, gets one insane trait at level 6.
Just... any of the DMG PrCs, except Shadow-whatever. They're all so damned boring.

Kylarra
2009-11-01, 11:34 PM
It's a commoner entry PRC.
Well, as long as your average commoner doesn't actually want to hit anything, it's good for them. :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2009-11-01, 11:36 PM
It's just there so that DMs can improve the toughness of their monsters when they're too vapid to realize "dur, I can just increase the numbers on their defensive stats by a small but significant amount, arbitrarily, because I'm the DM, witch!"

Seatbelt
2009-11-01, 11:58 PM
It's just there so that DMs can improve the toughness of their monsters when they're too vapid to realize "dur, I can just increase the numbers on their defensive stats by a small but significant amount, arbitrarily, because I'm the DM, witch!"

On a related but completely off topic note: As a DM is it legit to give your monster/s a bunch more HP because the party was able to blow through them much quicker than anticipated? Just straight up tack on 30 more HP so he lives another few rounds?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-02, 12:00 AM
Well, in the time they were up and standing, did they inflict CR-appropriate wounds on the party? Did blowing through them require CR-appropriate resources? Would the party be offended or pleased that combat is taking longer?

RandomLunatic
2009-11-02, 12:02 AM
On a related but completely off topic note: As a DM is it legit to give your monster/s a bunch more HP because the party was able to blow through them much quicker than anticipated? Just straight up tack on 30 more HP so he lives another few rounds?

Sure, why not? Just give them max or 3/4ths their hit dice instead of the average.

*Re-rail*
Duelist. Requires two lousy feats to get in, and pigeonholes you into the worst fighting style possible. Gets a bunch of AC bonuses that almost make up for the armor you are giving up.

Grumman
2009-11-02, 12:09 AM
I've never been able to figure out a good way to use Arcane Archer...
Two words: Firestride Exhalation. With Telflammar Shadowlord. You probably need an Elvencraft bow to do it, but the ability to shoot someone, hit them with a cone of fire, teleport to their position and full attack them as a standard action would be worth it for the amusement factor alone.

JonestheSpy
2009-11-02, 12:12 AM
About Risen Martyr:


Oh. I was mistaken; I somehow misread the text to say you need to have been raised to enter the class. And yet because of this, Risen Martyr's existence actually trivializes death in a way because all you have to do is die protecting others or defending an ideal - pretty common stuff when fighting evil. Further... this class is so lacking in useful abilities that even in parties with the lowest optimization it will stand out as being weak.

As a DM, I wouldn't want a plot-important character gimped so badly. As a player, I'd rather ask to make a new character than dampen the significance of my heroic death and have to watch as he becomes more and more useless as the campaign progresses.

See, I have the complete opposite opinion - I think the commonality of Raising make death pretty cheap, and keep it rare as possible. Risen Martyr is a cool way to keep a character whose player has done a good job roleplaying a driven quester type. And yeah, you have to ditch the idiotic requirement for the lame "Nimbus of Light" feat, but so what? Waive your DM wand, it's done - if there's one thing being on this forum demonstrates, it's that alomst every class needs a bit of tweaking to get it right.

Also, I think FMArthur is seriously misjudging the class's powers - most importantly, the Holy Purpose Feature. By 9th level, the RM gets +4 on attacks rolls, damage, saves, ability rolls, and skill checks any time the RM is engaging in actions that go toward fulfilling its quest (that means almost full BAB, too) - that's an excellent bonus for roleplaying focus. Add that to immunity to cold, acid, electricity, continual protective aura, etc, you're looking pretty good for a non-spellcasting class.

And it's obviously written with the idea that the RM would earn enough experience points to take them to 11th level - i.e. ascending to the upper planes - after the quest that tied them to the material plane is achieved, so it's an excellent exit for the character. If for some reason the character goes through 10 levels without finishing their quest, any halfway compentent DM can fudge things a bit to keep them in the game.

Oh, and as for the much maligned Dwarven Defender, just remember that its purpose is to, y'know, defend things. That means quite often means putting oneself in between the ravening hordes and the thing you're defending - it doesn't matter if you can't move, you're the wall the waves will crash against. Especially if you live in tunnels that channel the attackers right to you...

ravenkith
2009-11-02, 12:18 AM
Metamind in gestalt is fairly awesome sauce...as long as you offset the lost manifester levels with levels of the class you are manifesting from.

Why yes, I believe I do get to manifest ninth level, fully augmented powers for free!

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-02, 12:18 AM
Oh, and as for the much maligned Dwarven Defender, just remember that its purpose is to, y'know, defend things. That means quite often means putting oneself in between the ravening hordes and the thing you're defending - it doesn't matter if you can't move, you're the wall the waves will crash against.
Oh no! It's a rough patch of terrain! Move swiftly away around! :smalltongue:


Especially if you live in tunnels that channel the attackers right to you...
It's an NPC class. For guard-duties in the Underdark, mostly.

oxinabox
2009-11-02, 12:19 AM
On a related but completely off topic note: As a DM is it legit to give your monster/s a bunch more HP because the party was able to blow through them much quicker than anticipated? Just straight up tack on 30 more HP so he lives another few rounds?

Yes, that's a fine tatic.
You don't have to follow CR -> XP rules at all.

offtopic

If the Players Nova one of my minibosses, they may sudden realise:
Yes, Oh ,by god the 85 damage on the first hit hurt him.
But, It Also Made Him Mad.
And Find that he has a eries of berker powers that say, now he gets Diehard, and DR.
Only for Bosses, and only when if feels right.
clearly i don't want to do this too often and take away there victory.

Or, the NPC warrior, who keeps missing, will turn out to Barbain, who roars out his fury at missing the the halfling monk. and sudenly tryes harder.

(due to some setting based rules (regaring unarmoured AC) halfling monks actully need a fair bit of nerfing, to spot the being better than anything else (also this is a pf not 3.5 monk - the things a monk would be able to choice as bonus feats he get a class features - and he gets bonus feats)).


Heck at the end of the one off, the Warlord (I thing warchief was the monster name)of the ORc Army was callanged to a duel by the fighter (4e now).
He lost badly, cos all his powers were geared towards leadding a battle, not solo 1vs combat.
so when he dies, the party saw his flesh knit back together, and the mage ideified the source as being a magic belt.

So the party attacked hgim for a while longer, and then decided to sunder the belt.
He fell - mince on the ground.
IT was a better incounter, becasue they felt they have overcome a challange - realising they had t o destroy the belt.

clearly you need to do this at the right time.
you don't want to reck the taste of victory


If Adaptive flanker did stack with flanking then a guy with Awlpike (15ft reach) could threated by himself from 5ft away. (that is a gap of 1 square)
Now i need him to have some more arms so he can also hold a halberd to use to hit the guy...

I wonder what i could do with a hell of alot of arms, varios sized awlpikes, glaives, and and longswords.
and willingdeformit tall and strong arm bracers...

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 12:21 AM
Yeah, Dwarven Defender's the only one that can get away with "I'm an NPC class!"

Duelist is terrible. I can't believe I forgot to mention it.

JonestheSpy
2009-11-02, 12:54 AM
Oh no! It's a rough patch of terrain! Move swiftly away around! :smalltongue:


Y'know, I'm always amazed that so many folks seem to judge things in a "my character vs. x character thing", as opposed to characters vs monsters. In my experience, adventurers tend to encounter an awful lot of things that are only too happy to try and get in close quarters and kill them, esepcially if the party also contains effective ranged combatants.

Thurbane
2009-11-02, 12:55 AM
Have to disagree with the OP about Tactical Soldier. It's not a bad PrC, at least for a few levels. The prereqs aren't that steep either - 90% of melee types will have Power Attack (and Cleave), and most melee types with DEX 12 or higher are likely to have Combat Reflexes. And 2 ranks in Sense Motive is only going to cost 4 skill points, max.

For that you get the Flanker ability at 1st level. The Adaptable Flanker feat is the 3rd feat in a chain. At 2nd, they get Sidestep, a very worthwhile feat for any AoO build, which normally needs DEX 15, Tumble 8 ranks, Dodge and Mobility. The other abilities at every other level (except 6th and 9th) aren't half bad either, in the right build.

There are far, far worse melee based PrCs than Tactical Soldier...

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 12:57 AM
Y'know, I'm always amazed that so many folks seem to judge things in a "my character vs. x character thing", as opposed to characters vs monsters. In my experience, adventurers tend to encounter an awful lot of things that are only too happy to try and get in close quarters and kill them, esepcially if the party also contains effective ranged combatants.

To be fair, my monsters tend to be ranged or do hit and run or other things that are normally bizarre for D&D.

To be fair, I don't run monsters, I run PvP NPCs.

Akal Saris
2009-11-02, 01:05 AM
5 levels of tactical soldier could theoretically help a frenzied berserker let himself be auto-pacified by the party bard, I guess =P

(Though the zhentarim bodyguard method with a red wizard PC is much more awesome IMO)

SparkMandriller
2009-11-02, 01:05 AM
Y'know, I'm always amazed that so many folks seem to judge things in a "my character vs. x character thing", as opposed to characters vs monsters. In my experience, adventurers tend to encounter an awful lot of things that are only too happy to try and get in close quarters and kill them, esepcially if the party also contains effective ranged combatants.

Do you only fight 3 intelligence monsters or what?

JonestheSpy
2009-11-02, 01:21 AM
Do you only fight 3 intelligence monsters or what?

No, I have my creatures act like they're actually monsters, not metagaming optimizers.

You're an troll. A bunch of small humanoids invade you're lair and start throwing spells and firing arrows at you. You're not going to close and use your vastly superior strength to smash them into pulp why, exactly...?

And if you're a horde of barbarians or orcs or whatever that wants to conquer a city, it doesn't matter what fancy tactics you use, eventually you have to get boots on the ground in that city, and that means eliminating its defenders, not just endlessly avoiding them.

taltamir
2009-11-02, 02:04 AM
aren't there some truenamer PrCs? which are the worst PrCs ever for the worst class ever?

DragoonWraith
2009-11-02, 02:11 AM
Actually, the PrCs are much more solid than the class, IMO. Especially the Fiendbinder. That one's awesome.

Myrmex
2009-11-02, 03:06 AM
3.0 had some really atrocious PrCs. Exotic Weapon Master got to make weapons out of tree branches that do about 3 pts more damage, on average, than a greatsword. You get this ability over 3 levels.


Being an NPC doesn't mean you are suddenly allowed to be ineffective. People other than PCs have roles and obligations too; and being a reputedly powerful individual with glaring weaknesses isn't necessarily flavorful.

Having an opponent with a lot of HD related effects (BAB, saves, wealth, HP), but not not a whole lot of terrific class related effects (read: casting), is a good way to build a challenging encounter that won't wtfbbq the party in a surprise round.


Metamind in gestalt is fairly awesome sauce...as long as you offset the lost manifester levels with levels of the class you are manifesting from.

Why yes, I believe I do get to manifest ninth level, fully augmented powers for free!

I think between practiced manifester & ardent, you can achieve 9th level manifesting.

SparkMandriller
2009-11-02, 03:14 AM
No, I have my creatures act like they're actually monsters, not metagaming optimizers.

You're an troll. A bunch of small humanoids invade you're lair and start throwing spells and firing arrows at you. You're not going to close and use your vastly superior strength to smash them into pulp why, exactly...?

Not sure. Explain to me why I wouldn't do just that, instead of attacking the guy who refuses to move? Because I'm just not seeing why I'd go for the short man wearing huge amounts of armour instead of just stepping around him and murdering the guy who's throwing fire at my face.

dyslexicfaser
2009-11-02, 03:19 AM
Don't forget Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a). Such an awesome capstone ability, but trying to get there is an exercise in pain.

Killer Angel
2009-11-02, 03:26 AM
Horizon Walker. Really boring for nine of its ten levels, gets one insane trait at level 6.
Just... any of the DMG PrCs, except Shadow-whatever. They're all so damned boring.


Are you kiddin'? :smallconfused:
You can find it boring, but you can't say that Archmage is a bad PrC.
And Horizon Walker... well, if you can find worthy ONLY ONE of the planar terrain (shifting?), I really don't know. Even in the first 5 levels is good; I don't remember too much things that gives you a +4 to listen. With Desert you're immune to fatigue.
I'll give you the benefits of doubt: are you speaking 'bout your personal tastes or usefulness?

Myrmex
2009-11-02, 03:27 AM
Don't forget Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a). Such an awesome capstone ability, but trying to get there is an exercise in pain.

A 2 level dip is great for invincible cha builds. Feat heavy, though.
3rd level + two hander & leap attack means no need for shock trooper, and false keenness stacks with a keen weapon.

I think it's actually a really solid class for a melee build.

Grumman
2009-11-02, 03:43 AM
Not sure. Explain to me why I wouldn't do just that, instead of attacking the guy who refuses to move? Because I'm just not seeing why I'd go for the short man wearing huge amounts of armour instead of just stepping around him and murdering the guy who's throwing fire at my face.
Because you only go around something if you perceive it to be something you want or need to go around. As a creature with only 6 INT and regeneration, the troll should have learnt that people half his height that are not on fire are not threats that need to be evaded. It even says in the book that trolls don't act like you think they do.

SparkMandriller
2009-11-02, 03:49 AM
I'd want to go around a guy if it'd mean I could get at the man throwing fire at my face. I mean, it's my face. It's important to me.

Eldariel
2009-11-02, 04:11 AM
Lessee, Arcane Archer (the level 2 ability is nice, other than that...), Shining Blade of Heironeous, Dwarven Defender, Blighter, Warpriest, Green Star Adept, Seeker of the Song, Order of the Bow Initiate, Reaping Mauler, Tempest... Ok, most PrCs just suck. This'll save me time.

Nai_Calus
2009-11-02, 04:20 AM
Mystic Keeper of Corellon Larethian from some Dragon magazine I've forgotten the number of.

It's a 5/10 casting progression class, which destroys it right there. 3/4 BAB as I recall. All the special abilities are lame, and they all require you to be holding a Longsword.

Among the PrC's ludicrous requirements for entry is Weapon Finesse.

You know, the feat that can't be used with a Longsword. No, the PrC doesn't give you the ability to use it with a Longsword.

So you take a feat you can never use for some really ****ty abilities and never getting more than a single 8th level spell.

Words fail me, really.

lord_khaine
2009-11-02, 04:21 AM
I'd want to go around a guy if it'd mean I could get at the man throwing fire at my face. I mean, it's my face. It's important to me.

What about the small beardet man with the big axe who screams he is going to "Cut ya tonkers off and make ya eat them", isnt your tonkers important to you as well?

Dairun Cates
2009-11-02, 04:27 AM
Not sure. Explain to me why I wouldn't do just that, instead of attacking the guy who refuses to move? Because I'm just not seeing why I'd go for the short man wearing huge amounts of armour instead of just stepping around him and murdering the guy who's throwing fire at my face.

Because, even though some of the mechanics don't support reality, you as a character don't think you're a video game character. You don't get to see your magic numbers, and contrary to what you might think, people aren't perfect gauges of how dead they are and which mortal wound is worse.

A lot of your assumptions are based on numbers and careful observations that you just don't have the time to make. You do not know how much HP you have, you do not know what a CR appropriate challenge is, and for the most part, most mundane foes should be falling in one hit.

So, you see a guy in armor. You're a big ass ogre. You've killed hundreds of these guys. Basic town guards. You'll kill him while you charge the wizard, because running around him ensures that the guy's going to stab you in the back while you have it turned and breaks your charge. It's efficient. Kill what's in front of you and keep charging through. Everything's going to die and they all go down in 1 hit anyway.

Oh crap. He survived a hit. That doesn't normally happen.

If we're to assume that character have intimate tactical knowledge of the d20 system, and that the simulation of the system is a perfect representation, than there really are people on a battlefield WAITING PATIENTLY FOR THEIR TURN. That just gets silly. If you're trying to simulate a REAL battle, there's going to be some inefficient combat maneuvers, because it doesn't work like that in ANY reality.

Think of it this way. Look back on any major epic battle you've seen in a movie. Were the front-line people in a battalion running in ARCHS around the opposing side's frontlines or did they charge straight forward?

Grumman
2009-11-02, 04:28 AM
I'd want to go around a guy if it'd mean I could get at the man throwing fire at my face. I mean, it's my face. It's important to me.
You still don't get it. You only want to go around a guy after you realise that it means you can get at the man throwing fire at your face. I'm saying that a troll:

having only 6 INT
having the ability to regenerate from any wound, facing someone half his size
"hav[ing] no fear of death", "launch[ing] themselves into combat without hesitation, flailing wildly at the closest opponent"

will not come to that realisation until it was too late, if at all.

Rainbownaga
2009-11-02, 04:34 AM
Would blighter be doable with fochulan Lyrist and sublime chord?

ZeroNumerous
2009-11-02, 04:36 AM
Just... any of the DMG PrCs, except Shadow-whatever. They're all so damned boring.

Archmage and Loremaster are both pretty good. Assassin is the natural progression for most rogues. Though I'll grant you the others since they do indeed suck.


will not come to that realisation until it was too late, if at all.

Do cuts hurt trolls? No.
Does fire hurt trolls? Yes.
Basic animal instinct: Run from or kill threats.
Ergo: Fire-thrower dies first, screw everything else.

And that's INT 2. Sure, the troll isn't as smart as your average human. But it's a whole lot smarter than an animal.

SparkMandriller
2009-11-02, 04:45 AM
I guess you guys just see 6 intelligence as a lot dumber than what I see 6 intelligence as. Have fun with it, I guess. I dunno, I wouldn't find combat with monsters who don't do anything but charge whoever's closest to them too fun, but whatever, if it works for you.

lord_khaine
2009-11-02, 04:51 AM
I guess you guys just see 6 intelligence as a lot dumber than what I see 6 intelligence as. Have fun with it, I guess. I dunno, I wouldn't find combat with monsters who don't do anything but charge whoever's closest to them too fun, but whatever, if it works for you

I wouldnt find combat where every monster behaved like a tactical genius funny, since every combat would be alike, but whatever, if it works for you.

Killer Angel
2009-11-02, 04:55 AM
You still don't get it. You only want to go around a guy after you realise that it means you can get at the man throwing fire at your face. I'm saying that a troll:

having only 6 INT
having the ability to regenerate from any wound, facing someone half his size
"hav[ing] no fear of death", "launch[ing] themselves into combat without hesitation, flailing wildly at the closest opponent"

will not come to that realisation until it was too late, if at all.

Not all the trolls are equal; some of them will "think": axe = no hurts me; fire = hurts me badly; man with fire: kill first; little man with axe: kill later".

That said, even in this "best case scenario" with the troll chargin' the DD, we have a PrC that relies on:
1) fighting dumb meleers
2) having a DM that roleplays such monster in a reasonable but specific way

The DD is a weak PrC that hopes in some specific circumstances to be a little effective.
Sometime it happens... a hill giant run by me, probably will try to crush the hated dwarf. The troll? Probably he'll charge the first PC usin' fire.

Rainbownaga
2009-11-02, 05:06 AM
Wouldn't a better way to use the dd's abilities be to charge in to tangle up the target first, then use the stance ability in conjunction with feats or dips that keep the target within melee?

Lord Thurlvin
2009-11-02, 05:14 AM
I don't see why people are hating on the Green Star Adept. Sure, it might not be real great mechanically, but you get to turn into a living construct. It's totally cool.

Sir Homeslice
2009-11-02, 05:16 AM
Illumine Soul, to me, is just a hilariously bad PrC for a hilariously bad class. Alright, so the fourth level's Positive Energy Healing isn't so bad since it's a guaranteed get out of jail card, but still. lol soulblade.

@Lord Thurlvin: You (eventually) lose your con score. And you have to pay GP to do so. It's just bad.

Lord Thurlvin
2009-11-02, 05:21 AM
I guess that it's just the concept I like.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-02, 05:23 AM
The concept is cool. The execution is worthy of execution.

lord_khaine
2009-11-02, 05:47 AM
Not all the trolls are equal; some of them will "think": axe = no hurts me; fire = hurts me badly; man with fire: kill first; little man with axe: kill later".

That said, even in this "best case scenario" with the troll chargin' the DD, we have a PrC that relies on:
1) fighting dumb meleers
2) having a DM that roleplays such monster in a reasonable but specific way

The DD is a weak PrC that hopes in some specific circumstances to be a little effective.
Sometime it happens... a hill giant run by me, probably will try to crush the hated dwarf. The troll? Probably he'll charge the first PC usin' fire.

This is not quite correct, normal fire will only hurt a troll slightly more than a axe ( normal fire should not do more than around 1d6 points of real damage)

besides that, you forgot some alternative points in you "best case scenario".
3) Having terain or the reach to force the smart meleers to engage you.
4) having opponents who dont metagame detailed information about your fighting style.
5) having the rest of the party be smart enough to move besides you if something big and nasty is comming for them.


The concept is cool. The execution is worthy of execution.

Its not that bad again for a Gish, and you can allways stop at level 9.

Dairun Cates
2009-11-02, 06:29 AM
I guess you guys just see 6 intelligence as a lot dumber than what I see 6 intelligence as. Have fun with it, I guess. I dunno, I wouldn't find combat with monsters who don't do anything but charge whoever's closest to them too fun, but whatever, if it works for you.

You are aware that when you're big and strong like that, charging IS the smart tactic there. Running AROUND someone in a real combat when you have every reason to believe you can incapacitate them in one hit and keep charging is, quite frankly, ridiculous. It breaks your momentum and stride. It takes the same number of turns to get to the wizard, but one way gets rid of two pesky targets instead of one.

What you're proposing isn't intelligence. It's omniscience. Your monsters are using constructs of the system that SIMULATES the combat to their advantage. What you're doing is flat out meta-gaming. Which is quite frankly, unfair to your players since you have the advantage of knowing EVERY number in combat, and your players don't.

Some players may be fine with that if they're primarily interested in just the numbers of the game and not role-playing or the simulation aspects, but almost every player I've ever met absolutely hates it when a GM does that.

If your players want a bigger challenge, send them a better monster, don't try to milk the current one until it stretches believability.

Oh, and for the record, a 6 intelligence, BY DEFINITION is the intelligence of around a 10 year old human child. So ask yourself how well the average 10 year old would do in terms of tactics while under pressure.

A bit more on track. I do remember a prestige class in the same book as Arcane Trickster that had the capstone ability to essentially teleport through blood. Not useless by any stretch of the imagination, but damned weird.

Kaiyanwang
2009-11-02, 06:40 AM
Oh, and for the record, a 6 intelligence, BY DEFINITION is the intelligence of around a 10 year old human child. So ask yourself how well the average 10 year old would do in terms of tactics while under pressure.


I doubt the definition fits. the 10 years old is young, the troll is an adult.

Experience could beat intelligence, in an extent. Or at least supersede it in some extent.

And man, is a 10+ feet tall 10 years old with claws, giant strenght and regeneration.

Killer Angel
2009-11-02, 07:18 AM
What you're proposing isn't intelligence. It's omniscience. Your monsters are using constructs of the system that SIMULATES the combat to their advantage. What you're doing is flat out meta-gaming. Which is quite frankly, unfair to your players since you have the advantage of knowing EVERY number in combat, and your players don't.


The thread is derailing, but in an interesting way.
Is not only a matter of metaknowledge of the pcs' abilities. Every monster has some intelligence AND experience, AND some knowledge of his own weakness.
The troll knows that no one can kill him and that he heals rapidly even the worst wounds. He fears only fire, cause fire wounds don't heal quickly.
Fire is bad.
If a were the DM, the troll will try to kill first anyone holding or usin' fire, because he knows in the deep that fire is the enemy. This behaviour fits an Int 6.
Put a DD in front of the troll and an archer with a flaming bow behind the DD, and the troll will try to reach the archer. Give a torch to the DD, and the troll will attack the DD. If the wizard trows fireball, i will not go for him, 'cause i cannot identify the wizard as the one who's hurting me; but if the wiz. shoots scorchin ray, I'll go for him.
'til I play my monsters in a believable way, how can one say that i'm wrong?
Obviously, I must be coherent with myself (AKA try to kill the archer usin' fire arrows even if in front of me there isn't a DD, but a raging barbarian).

Metagame is a different thing, is try to kill the wizard regardless his actions because I (as a DM) know that he's dangerous and I know that the DD will exit from defensive stance if he wants to follow me.

Dumb monsters don't use smart tactic, but follow their primal instinct, sometime at their disadvantage (the hill giant trying to kill the dwarf, even if the dwarves have racial bonuses against giants); and in 20 years of DM, I've never been accused of metagame from my players.

Vortling
2009-11-02, 07:53 AM
Worst PrC? Planar Shepard followed closely by Incantatrix. Because everyone knows that Druids and Wizards are so horribly underpowered that they need all the help they can get.

ZeroNumerous
2009-11-02, 08:03 AM
I don't see why people are hating on the Green Star Adept. Sure, it might not be real great mechanically, but you get to turn into a living construct. It's totally cool.

Be a Warforged. Living construct without the suck.


Oh, and for the record, a 6 intelligence, BY DEFINITION is the intelligence of around a 10 year old human child. So ask yourself how well the average 10 year old would do in terms of tactics while under pressure.

A 6 year old knows not to touch a hot oven. He also knows that an unopened food can isn't gonna cut him. Ergo, a troll would know that fire hurts but axes don't. INT 6 is hardly as idiotic as you believe it to be and killing what can hurt you is not some sort of genius-level of tactical acumen.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-02, 08:20 AM
Worst PrC? Planar Shepard followed closely by Incantatrix. Because everyone knows that Druids and Wizards are so horribly underpowered that they need all the help they can get.

This. Nerf monks, please.

GolemsVoice
2009-11-02, 08:24 AM
Say, in all those posts regarding the DD, did it never occur to anyone that the DD might defend something you cannot get around, like a door, or a gate, or a tunnel? He's soaking damage, staying tough, while his friends throw horrible magic and arrow shaped death from behind him, knowing that they will only be attacked over their friend's dead body, which is unlikely to happen because he has a Prestige Class designed to make him as tough as can be?
Sure, that still rules out many situations, but, well, it's dwarfen defender, and last time I checked, dwarves tend to live in tunnels and small homes, underground, with lot's of narrow spaces. ´So you, as a DM, can easily construct an encounter.

oxinabox
2009-11-02, 08:30 AM
Be a Warforged. Living construct without the suck.



A 6 year old knows not to touch a hot oven. He also knows that an unopened food can isn't gonna cut him. Ergo, a troll would know that fire hurts but axes don't. INT 6 is hardly as idiotic as you believe it to be and killing what can hurt you is not some sort of genius-level of tactical acumen.

anyway, when has INT 6 ever held a PrC intended for monsters back?
Quiet possibly one of hte most decent of ll PrC's intended for moster has the
Class feature at lvl 1:
For puposed of all ability checks, and skill checks:
Treat int, wis and cha, as being 0.
any ranks you may have in a int, cha, or wis based skill also are threated as zero.
the Skill Intimidate is excluded from this.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-02, 08:32 AM
Say, in all those posts regarding the DD, did it never occur to anyone that the DD might defend something you cannot get around, like a door, or a gate, or a tunnel?

I can't hear you over the sound of my tumbling.

Sliver
2009-11-02, 08:32 AM
Say, in all those posts regarding the DD, did it never occur to anyone that the DD might defend something you cannot get around, like a door, or a gate, or a tunnel? He's soaking damage, staying tough, while his friends throw horrible magic and arrow shaped death from behind him, knowing that they will only be attacked over their friend's dead body, which is unlikely to happen because he has a Prestige Class designed to make him as tough as can be?
Sure, that still rules out many situations, but, well, it's dwarfen defender, and last time I checked, dwarves tend to live in tunnels and small homes, underground, with lot's of narrow spaces. ´So you, as a DM, can easily construct an encounter.

This is racism. My dwarfs live on top of candy mountain, hunting unicorns and taking their kidneys.

Philaenas
2009-11-02, 08:41 AM
Wayfarer Guide... Losing 1 caster level for some lame abilities improving the use of two spells... of which one is obsolete if you know the lvl 7 version of teleport. Wooptidoo.

Starscream
2009-11-02, 08:41 AM
Lessee, Arcane Archer (the level 2 ability is nice, other than that...), Shining Blade of Heironeous, Dwarven Defender, Blighter, Warpriest, Green Star Adept, Seeker of the Song, Order of the Bow Initiate, Reaping Mauler, Tempest... Ok, most PrCs just suck. This'll save me time.

Seeker of the Song may not advance spellcasting (which is bad news for any prc that casters take), but in a Gestalt game it is downright scary. Just keep taking bard levels on the other side, and your musical abilities will rule. And it gives cool tricks at every level, so even a normal bard might consider a one or two level dip to be worth his time.

Eldariel
2009-11-02, 09:01 AM
Seeker of the Song may not advance spellcasting (which is bad news for any prc that casters take), but in a Gestalt game it is downright scary. Just keep taking bard levels on the other side, and your musical abilities will rule. And it gives cool tricks at every level, so even a normal bard might consider a one or two level dip to be worth his time.

Meh, I suppose the Combine Songs-ability is decent, but most of the Songs are downright crappy (mostly replicate poor versions of Energy Resistance- and various damage-spells). Hymn of Spelldeath would be awesome if it wasn't so high leveled that you are already dealing with Mind Blank by then; the Refrain is fine, but no more special than Greater Dispel Magic and the rest aren't even that.

Just...blah. It feels like a bad Virtuoso; heck, Virtuoso's songs are mostly better and Virtuoso also gets spellcasting to go with it.


Say, in all those posts regarding the DD, did it never occur to anyone that the DD might defend something you cannot get around, like a door, or a gate, or a tunnel? He's soaking damage, staying tough, while his friends throw horrible magic and arrow shaped death from behind him, knowing that they will only be attacked over their friend's dead body, which is unlikely to happen because he has a Prestige Class designed to make him as tough as can be?
Sure, that still rules out many situations, but, well, it's dwarfen defender, and last time I checked, dwarves tend to live in tunnels and small homes, underground, with lot's of narrow spaces. ´So you, as a DM, can easily construct an encounter.

Yes. It, like everything else here, has occurred to someone plenty of times. Doesn't make the class worthwhile. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129850)

Telonius
2009-11-02, 09:33 AM
A couple of the PrC's in the back of Shackled City are pretty wretched. I don't have the stats handy, but I think they were called something like "Pathwarden" and "High Handcrafter."

Aldizog
2009-11-02, 09:37 AM
Say, in all those posts regarding the DD, did it never occur to anyone that the DD might defend something you cannot get around, like a door, or a gate, or a tunnel? He's soaking damage, staying tough, while his friends throw horrible magic and arrow shaped death from behind him, knowing that they will only be attacked over their friend's dead body, which is unlikely to happen because he has a Prestige Class designed to make him as tough as can be?
Sure, that still rules out many situations, but, well, it's dwarfen defender, and last time I checked, dwarves tend to live in tunnels and small homes, underground, with lot's of narrow spaces. ´So you, as a DM, can easily construct an encounter.
The other thing that tends to get neglected is that a smart party will tailor their tactics to the resources they have at hand. If they have a barbarian, they'll cast Air Walk on him so he can charge, and spells to boost his Will save. If they have a Dwarven Defender, they'll use wall spells, Solid Fog, and/or summoned creatures to construct a confined space where there wasn't one and FORCE the enemy to engage the DD in melee. If they have both (and a party I DM'd for did), they'll send the DD in to take the AOO from a tough enemy (his AC was ~12 higher than the barb's at level 10, or 16 vs. giants) and then send in the barbarian.

It's not the most powerful melee PrC, but a smart party can make good use of it. As I said in the other thread, I think it's probably a pretty good option in core, where the opportunity cost of the feats isn't that high, and I think it's also a better option with standard 25-pt buy, where its bonuses to AC, Will save, and DR probably matter more than in a higher-powered game.

The worst PrC, I would say (meaning "worst" and not "weakest") is the Frenzied Berserker.

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 09:49 AM
I'll give you the benefits of doubt: are you speaking 'bout your personal tastes or usefulness?

The thread title is worst, not weakest. :)

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-02, 10:05 AM
Witchborn Binder, from Magic of Incarnum.

Problems with it:


Designed to fight spellcasters, the most powerful classes in the game.
Relies on Meldshaper level VS Caster Level, when there's no effects that boost Meldshaper level and thousands that boost CL.
Requires you to sacrifice 4 meldshaper levels to take all 10 levels.
And attempts to make up for it by giving you 500gp every level for 9 levels, and then 500gp every 3 months.
None of the abilities actually hurt a prepared spellcaster.
The best class feature is limited by Dispel Magic's CL limit, meaning it is completely irrelevant above 10th level.
It doesn't advance your chakra binds, AKA the most important ability for a meldshaper.

Xenogears
2009-11-02, 10:15 AM
And attempts to make up for it by giving you 500gp every level for 9 levels, and then 500gp every 3 months.


Is that limited by anything besides time? Cuz otherwise my Warforged is gonna go hang out in a demiplane or something for a few million years contemplating the nature of realy and come out with 10mil to spend on actually hunting CR appropriate casters...

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-02, 10:20 AM
Is that limited by anything besides time? Cuz otherwise my Warforged is gonna go hang out in a demiplane or something for a few million years contemplating the nature of realy and come out with 10mil to spend on actually hunting CR appropriate casters...

Requires a king to donate the gold to you every month, it doesn't just teleport into your pocket. And he has a right to refuse you.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-02, 10:22 AM
@Dwarven Defender:
Dwarves, in their underground setting, have several enemies.
Orcs and their ilk: Dwarven defender abilities get full use
Duergar: They, as disciplined and intelligent folk, retreat and use backup ranged weapons. Or siege your fortress, or something.
Humans, maybe?: Much like the duergar, they have enough tactics to eliminate the defensive stance as a benefit.

So against duergar, humans, or any actually organized enemy (of which there are a lot) the dwarven defender loses defensive stance, making it a relatively mediocre fighter. And races like the drow subvert that whole warfare thing.

Xenogears
2009-11-02, 10:25 AM
Requires a king to donate the gold to you every month, it doesn't just teleport into your pocket. And he has a right to refuse you.

I assumed as much but it would've been a fun idea...

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 10:25 AM
Well to be fair it's 500g*level for the binder ... not that that's much better.

Sliver
2009-11-02, 10:27 AM
Requires a king to donate the gold to you every month, it doesn't just teleport into your pocket. And he has a right to refuse you.

So now you need a PrC to be able to get donations?

lesser_minion
2009-11-02, 10:27 AM
He's soaking damage, staying tough, while his
friends throw horrible magic and arrow shaped death from behind him, knowing that they will only be attacked over their friend's dead body, which is unlikely to happen because he has a Prestige Class designed to make him as tough as can be?


Territory control doesn't work. There are a ridiculous number of ways to get an effective melee threat past a dwarven defender, and the dwarven defender can deal with just one of them if he doesn't mind burning four more feats (EWP, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Stand Still) and stepping outside of core. And while that stops tumbling kusari-gama lockdown ninjas, it still does nothing about teleporting kusari-gama lockdown ninjas, ethereal kusari-gama lockdown ninjas, incorporeal undead, summoned monsters eating the rear ranks, or simply turning the dwarven defender into paste with a melee combo or even a major creation nuke or AM Major creation cheese.

Against orcs and goblins, sure, you can hold an underground city for a long time just by having a few guys with pavise shields, crossbows and spears and letting the attacks break on your indestructible defensive formations. You don't need a fancy-pants "this represents the pride of the dwarf military" prestige class to do so.

Even worse, it doesn't work against any kind of elite opponent. Fighting drow? OK, four drow ninjas materialise behind your defender and murder your crossbowmen and spellcasters with kusari-gama lockdown.

And then, when all the fire-users are gone, a horde of angry troll berserkers turns up and rips your defender apart.

In the confusion, the ninjas saunter up to the MacGuffin, grab it, and waltz back home.

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 10:32 AM
So now you need a PrC to be able to get donations?To get royally funded donations + appropriate pseudo-immunities to law, without necessarily doing a massive quest for them in advance. So sure, it's like leadership. Not the only way to get something in general, but a way to guarantee them in specific... minus the cheese anyway.

Person_Man
2009-11-02, 10:34 AM
I'd like to agree with Thurbane that Tactical Soldier is actually an ok PrC for 2 levels (and only 2 levels). 90% of melee builds are going to take Power Attack and Combat Reflexes anyway. Cleave is suboptimial, but not nearly as useless as Skill Focus or some similar pre-req feat that many other PrC are saddled with. The Flanking ability is useful when you partner with a Rogue. And the Sidestep feat (which has horrible pre-reqs that you ignore) can be very useful, especially if you can create difficult terrain and use a reach weapon (Knight, Earth Devotion, etc).

My nomination goes to any Truenamer PrC (Acolyte of the Ego, Bereft, etc), as they requires you to use the unworkable Truename magic rules. Other PrC may suck, but these are essentially unusable.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-02, 10:50 AM
My nomination goes to any Truenamer PrC (Acolyte of the Ego, Bereft, etc), as they requires you to use the unworkable Truename magic rules. Other PrC may suck, but these are essentially unusable.

Actually, the PrCs follow a different set of rules than the first Lexicon (all three Lexicons actually use a different formula for the DC). Only the first Lexicon uses the 15+(2*CR) formula.

Some of the PrCs have set DCs that are fairly low (even the DC 50 in the Disciple of the Word is fairly easy to make if you optimize a little).

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-02, 10:59 AM
No, I have my creatures act like they're actually monsters, not metagaming optimizers.

You're an troll. A bunch of small humanoids invade you're lair and start throwing spells and firing arrows at you. You're not going to close and use your vastly superior strength to smash them into pulp why, exactly...?

And if you're a horde of barbarians or orcs or whatever that wants to conquer a city, it doesn't matter what fancy tactics you use, eventually you have to get boots on the ground in that city, and that means eliminating its defenders, not just endlessly avoiding them.
Int 2 animals will go on to find easier prey if they find they completely can't hit you, and you can't do anything to stop them. Even they're smarter than the dwarven defender. :smalltongue:

It's not being defensive that's the issue; it's forcing enemies to pay attention to you (rather than going somewhere else) and actually doing something to your foes to show you're a threat that needs eliminated.

Dwarven defender not only doesn't help with either of those things, it actively hinders them (by chewing up potentially useful resources and giving virtually nothing in return that levels of barbarian wouldn't do nearly as well).


Because, even though some of the mechanics don't support reality, you as a character don't think you're a video game character. You don't get to see your magic numbers, and contrary to what you might think, people aren't perfect gauges of how dead they are and which mortal wound is worse.

A lot of your assumptions are based on numbers and careful observations that you just don't have the time to make. You do not know how much HP you have, you do not know what a CR appropriate challenge is, and for the most part, most mundane foes should be falling in one hit.

So, you see a guy in armor. You're a big ass ogre. You've killed hundreds of these guys. Basic town guards. You'll kill him while you charge the wizard, because running around him ensures that the guy's going to stab you in the back while you have it turned and breaks your charge. It's efficient. Kill what's in front of you and keep charging through. Everything's going to die and they all go down in 1 hit anyway.

Oh crap. He survived a hit. That doesn't normally happen.

If we're to assume that character have intimate tactical knowledge of the d20 system, and that the simulation of the system is a perfect representation, than there really are people on a battlefield WAITING PATIENTLY FOR THEIR TURN. That just gets silly. If you're trying to simulate a REAL battle, there's going to be some inefficient combat maneuvers, because it doesn't work like that in ANY reality.

Think of it this way. Look back on any major epic battle you've seen in a movie. Were the front-line people in a battalion running in ARCHS around the opposing side's frontlines or did they charge straight forward?

And throwing good money after bad is never a good idea?

The DD might get you on round 1, but when he can only do like 1d8+4, cannot move, and is easy to get around, you'd think that even dullards would go after the easier-to-reach one altering reality behind him.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-02, 11:02 AM
Metamind in gestalt is fairly awesome sauce...as long as you offset the lost manifester levels with levels of the class you are manifesting from.

Why yes, I believe I do get to manifest ninth level, fully augmented powers for free!

Only with ardent, and only when you reach level 10 in the class (and only then for one minute).

Sucking for 9 levels and being broken at 10 (but only with timeless body) does not a good PrC make.

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 11:04 AM
The DD has a lot of the same issues that a monk (yes I realize that the monk has more, please don't tangent on this) has. You've got a lot of primarily defensive abilities, but no reason to have people focus on you, because you're not outputting all that much damage anyway.

Tavar
2009-11-02, 11:06 AM
Only with ardent, and only when you reach level 10 in the class (and only then for one minute).

Sucking for 9 levels and being broken at 10 (but only with timeless body) does not a good PrC make.

Not in gestalt(which is what he's talking about). There, it's perfectly possible to go metamind on one side and continue a psion progression on the other. Or even a Slayer progression.

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 11:15 AM
Not in gestalt(which is what he's talking about). There, it's perfectly possible to go metamind on one side and continue a psion progression on the other. Or even a Slayer progression.

Psionics is too easy to break in Gestalt.

Psion//Wilder 10/Anarchic Initiate 10.
Psion//Wilder 10/Metamind 10.

Etc.

It is a wonderful, elegant balance of abilities and multiclassing friendliness that proves all too frail when you begin overcharging it.

chiasaur11
2009-11-02, 11:17 AM
Requires a king to donate the gold to you every month, it doesn't just teleport into your pocket. And he has a right to refuse you.

So, it's like a Witchfinder Sergeant. Anyone ran one named Newt or Shadwell?

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 11:18 AM
I can't believe I didn't think of that.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-02, 11:28 AM
Not in gestalt(which is what he's talking about). There, it's perfectly possible to go metamind on one side and continue a psion progression on the other. Or even a Slayer progression.

Ack. I totally missed the whole 'gestalt' thing. Even with that, there are MUCH better PrCs in gestalt, until and unless you want to reach metamind 10 and then break it all to hell.

With gestalt, metamind is more like 50%/10000%, but at least that's better than 0%.

Aldizog
2009-11-02, 11:58 AM
For all the hate that the Dwarven Defender gets, it's not an example of bad PrC design. The answer to "What were they thinking?" is pretty clear. In the kind of casual game where fighters are often S&B, rogues use Spring Attack, wizards are blasters, clerics are healbots, and the MM1 monsters are a credible threat for their CR, the DD is just fine. If the casual game includes a fair number of dungeon corridors and melee opponents, the DD is great. It's a fighter with better defensive abilities (all the time, not just in the stance) at the cost of GWS and some versatility. The class really falls behind when the power level ratchets up, but there are a lot of low-optimization games out there.

And the blighter, sure, he's got the problem of having to find new terrain to despoil every day, but he's a villain. He'll probably only be around for a short while. "What were they thinking" for the blighter is pretty clear.

There are other PrCs that have me much more stumped on "What were they thinking?"

Starbuck_II
2009-11-02, 12:29 PM
Are you kiddin'? :smallconfused:
You can find it boring, but you can't say that Archmage is a bad PrC.
And Horizon Walker... well, if you can find worthy ONLY ONE of the planar terrain (shifting?), I really don't know. Even in the first 5 levels is good; I don't remember too much things that gives you a +4 to listen. With Desert you're immune to fatigue.
I'll give you the benefits of doubt: are you speaking 'bout your personal tastes or usefulness?

Agreed. Immunity to all aligned spell and Shifting are awesome.

Most high CR creatures use aligned spells (Balor, Solar, etc)

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 12:34 PM
Numeric bonuses to things aren't very exciting, regardless of how useful they are.

Optimystik
2009-11-02, 12:41 PM
Just... any of the DMG PrCs, except Shadow-whatever. They're all so damned boring.
[/LIST]

In addition to Archmage, I love Thaumaturgist. Excellent flavor, powerful for summoners, fits into most builds.

Flying Dutchman
2009-11-02, 12:54 PM
Whats the PrC in the desert book, for the hippopotomus paladin or what ever it is where like half your abilities only work if you are waist deep in water.

NoldorForce
2009-11-02, 01:13 PM
You mean the Scion of Tem-Et-Nu? Yeah, that's a goofy one.

taltamir
2009-11-02, 01:24 PM
I guess you guys just see 6 intelligence as a lot dumber than what I see 6 intelligence as. Have fun with it, I guess. I dunno, I wouldn't find combat with monsters who don't do anything but charge whoever's closest to them too fun, but whatever, if it works for you.

people make the mistake of thinking 6 int = 60 IQ.
The int scale is fairly arbitrary and each point has different values depends on what it is. (aka, 1 - 2 = animal, 3 int+ is humanlike intelligence, 10 int is average human intelligence, 18 int is max a human can be born with... So 3 int is about 70IQ, 2 is much lower, 18 is more than 180IQ, and so on)

jiriku
2009-11-02, 01:26 PM
Geomancer! All the badness of having to qualify for a dual-progression prestige class, and it doesn't actually offer dual progression. Further, advancing in the class gives you a variety of freakishly bizarre physical abnormalities that make the Willing Deformity feats look like talented cosmetic surgery, and the abilities themselves are a mishmash of different powers that don't really follow any coherent theme.

JonestheSpy
2009-11-02, 01:28 PM
Whats the PrC in the desert book, for the hippopotomus paladin or what ever it is where like half your abilities only work if you are waist deep in water.

Oh right, that one. Yeah that's gotta win the thread - I don't think I've ever seen a single positive word about that bit of silliness anywhere in any context.

And I didn't mean to derail the thread into a DD argument - but it is interesting how it brought out certain assumptions. People's main agrument seems to have all focussed on the idea that the DD is useless because he doesn't move in Defensive Stance and so foes just avoid him. Yeah, I suppose that might be true if the DD uses the stance before melee begins, then shouts out "Hey, I can't move now, so all you enemies have to come over here!", not to mention that the party as a whole has zero tactical ability and is unable to keep the melee fighters between their ranged combatants and the enemy.

In other words, there seems a certain amount of trying to paint scenarios that conform to one's prejudices - the charcter in question behaves like a moron, and its enemies are all tactical-specialist optimizers.

Really, I see three teirs of PrC's being discussed here:

Classes that really aren't all that bad, just not "optimal", like the overanalyzed Dwarven Defender.

Classes that are coll concepts but just not written well, and could be made useful with some tweaking, like the Arcane Archer and the Duelist.

And classes that just suck horribly, either overpowered like Planar Shepard or totally useless like hippo-guy.

It's somewhat surprising that so many of of the first two categories made it on to people's lists.

streakster
2009-11-02, 01:30 PM
You mean the Scion of Tem-Et-Nu? Yeah, that's a goofy one.

I'm sorry?

That doesn't deserve to be on - or anywhere near - the worst PrC ever list. Ya know why?

It lets you rebuke hippos.




...plus, you can just strap a Decanter of Endless Water to your belt and argue endlessly with your DM over the definition of "river".

dyslexicfaser
2009-11-02, 01:33 PM
A 2 level dip is great for invincible cha builds. Feat heavy, though.
3rd level + two hander & leap attack means no need for shock trooper, and false keenness stacks with a keen weapon.

I think it's actually a really solid class for a melee build.

Well sure, except it's a melee PrC with BaB like a wizard. Good luck trying to hit anything.

Jayabalard
2009-11-02, 01:35 PM
Numeric bonuses to things aren't very exciting, regardless of how useful they are.They are to some people... there are some people who just get excited about having big numbers.

Boci
2009-11-02, 01:36 PM
In other words, there seems a certain amount of trying to paint scenarios that conform to one's prejudices - the charcter in question behaves like a moron, and its enemies are all tactical-specialist optimizers.

There is some truth in that, but at the same time you must admit, a class whose main defensive feature prohibits it from moving (and cause it to be fatigued if it tries) will get into sticky situations against quite a few types of opponents.

For exmaple: mobil opponents and those who can teleport. Additionally, anything with 10 or more inteligence should be able to figure out its weakness pretty soon. So in my campeigns, a DD would be hardly ever use its defensive stance ability.

To contribute to this thread, I'd like to nominate the alienist. It was perfect: flavourful, well balanced, origional enough, but then they had to cripple it by gimping the versatility of the summon monster series. WHY?

Fortuna
2009-11-02, 01:58 PM
people make the mistake of thinking 6 int = 60 IQ.
The int scale is fairly arbitrary and each point has different values depends on what it is. (aka, 1 - 2 = animal, 3 int+ is humanlike intelligence, 10 int is average human intelligence, 18 int is max a human can be born with... So 3 int is about 70IQ, 2 is much lower, 18 is more than 180IQ, and so on)

Really? I was under the impression that the scale mapped closely to the bell curve generated by 3d6.

Optimystik
2009-11-02, 01:59 PM
Geomancer! All the badness of having to qualify for a dual-progression prestige class, and it doesn't actually offer dual progression. Further, advancing in the class gives you a variety of freakishly bizarre physical abnormalities that make the Willing Deformity feats look like talented cosmetic surgery, and the abilities themselves are a mishmash of different powers that don't really follow any coherent theme.

How could I forget this one? I remember physically holding back my vomit while reading it.


To contribute to this thread, I'd like to nominate the alienist. It was perfect: flavourful, well balanced, origional enough, but then they had to cripple it by gimping the versatility of the summon monster series. WHY?

Alienist actually isn't bad. The entry is cake (Know Planes 8 ranks and Augment Summoning, which you'll probably have as a summoner anyway and other PrCs give for free.) All your summons (and even your familiar!) get free spell resistance and DR/magic. 10/10 casting. Bonus metamagic at 3 and 7. You stop aging. Extra 9th level slot (for summoning only, but still.) Really, it's better than some of the other crap in CA, like Blood Magus and Green Barf Adept.

lesser_minion
2009-11-02, 02:15 PM
Really? I was under the impression that the scale mapped closely to the bell curve generated by 3d6.

Not true.

IQ tests don't measure intellect, they measure development. I don't think anyone even believes that it is possible to measure intellect properly any more.

D&D intelligence measures the ability to apply logic and reason to a problem, but doesn't really care about how much the character actually knows.

For trolls, note that intelligence 6 characters are specifically called out as being smart enough to work out which of their opponents is the biggest threat, at least once they have been attacked.

The troll should certainly be open to manipulation - working as a team, it should be possible to goad the troll into engaging the Defender in melee.

Intelligence 6 might be "can just about figure out who is the greatest threat" but it isn't "cannot be manipulated or goaded ever at all". The Defender is no more useless in this fight than he is unable to just douse the troll in acid.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 02:35 PM
I can't hear you over the sound of my tumbling.

Of course you add in here that you are able to move through the defender himself since OBVIOUSLY (YOu are optimising of course to beat a DD in his specific turf) ETHEREAL.

You can tumble all you want but if the only space is filled with DD it is not going to work.

A DD is only going to show up as an npc (or flavour-minded pc) inside a place where his strengths all come into play.
I.e. a small gate-way with arrow slots on either side, a tunnel that he has set-up so that things can't jump over him...

DD, good?
Yes, as an npc or in a very specific setting.

As for intelligence, of course the DD must have SUB 2 Int because you are ALL ascribing behaviour that the Int 6 (and according to some Int 3 animals) can do which involves serious use of strategy, tactics and auto passing spot/sense motive/knowledge arcane... but which is being claimed that the DD can't actually do...

Tyndmyr
2009-11-02, 02:37 PM
So, you're telling me that a dwarf is five feet thick?

Eldan
2009-11-02, 02:38 PM
Actually, a DC 25 tumble checks (10 ranks and a 20 dex to do it on a roll of 10) allow you to tumble through the defender's space.

Boci
2009-11-02, 02:39 PM
Alienist actually isn't bad. The entry is cake (Know Planes 8 ranks and Augment Summoning, which you'll probably have as a summoner anyway and other PrCs give for free.) All your summons (and even your familiar!) get free spell resistance and DR/magic. 10/10 casting. Bonus metamagic at 3 and 7. You stop aging. Extra 9th level slot (for summoning only, but still.) Really, it's better than some of the other crap in CA, like Blood Magus and Green Barf Adept.

That's what I was saying. It was a really good PrC (the two bonus toughness feats kinda sucked, but can't have everything your way), which they crippled for no good reason with a single sentance that shuold have never been printed. That makes it much more painful than the other PrC which just sucked for a number of reasons.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-02, 02:42 PM
I dislike your generalization of all the anti-DD people, your assumption that we're willfully ignoring things, and the phrasing of the statement that implies you're not similarly painting scenarios that conform to your own prejudices.

But yeah, it's not anywhere near "worst", just suboptimal. Witchborn Binder is a class that does indeed approach worst.

LibraryOgre
2009-11-02, 02:43 PM
Really? I was under the impression that the scale mapped closely to the bell curve generated by 3d6.

I prefer to think of it as being 50 + (int*5). It's a bit smaller of a distribution, and only the int 3 are truly below functional, and leaves most people in a relatively normal range... a 9 is, instead of 90, a 95, while a 14 is 120... still pretty smart, but not the really genius level implied by a 140 IQ.

Optimystik
2009-11-02, 02:45 PM
That's what I was saying. It was a really good PrC (the two bonus toughness feats kinda sucked, but can't have everything your way), which they crippled for no good reason with a single sentance that shuold have never been printed. That makes it much more painful than the other PrC which just sucked for a number of reasons.

Which sentence is that?

Boci
2009-11-02, 02:46 PM
Which sentence is that?

That they can no longer summon creatures that are neither fiendish or celestial. It is a serious gimp to the spell's versatility.

Person_Man
2009-11-02, 02:47 PM
Geomancer! All the badness of having to qualify for a dual-progression prestige class, and it doesn't actually offer dual progression. Further, advancing in the class gives you a variety of freakishly bizarre physical abnormalities that make the Willing Deformity feats look like talented cosmetic surgery, and the abilities themselves are a mishmash of different powers that don't really follow any coherent theme.

By ECL 16 a Geomancer can gain 6 natural attacks, plus your normal attack routine, plus your spells (from a nerfed progression). While nothing amazing, and certainly much weaker then full casters, it's also a lot better then most half-caster classes. And there are plenty of ways to exploit it - Arcane Strike, Divine Power, etc.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 02:47 PM
Territory control doesn't work. There are a ridiculous number of ways to get an effective melee threat past a dwarven defender, and the dwarven defender can deal with just one of them if he doesn't mind burning four more feats (EWP, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Stand Still) and stepping outside of core. And while that stops tumbling kusari-gama lockdown ninjas, it still does nothing about teleporting kusari-gama lockdown ninjas, ethereal kusari-gama lockdown ninjas, incorporeal undead, summoned monsters eating the rear ranks, or simply turning the dwarven defender into paste with a melee combo or even a major creation nuke or AM Major creation cheese.

Against orcs and goblins, sure, you can hold an underground city for a long time just by having a few guys with pavise shields, crossbows and spears and letting the attacks break on your indestructible defensive formations. You don't need a fancy-pants "this represents the pride of the dwarf military" prestige class to do so.

Even worse, it doesn't work against any kind of elite opponent. Fighting drow? OK, four drow ninjas materialise behind your defender and murder your crossbowmen and spellcasters with kusari-gama lockdown.

And then, when all the fire-users are gone, a horde of angry troll berserkers turns up and rips your defender apart.

In the confusion, the ninjas saunter up to the MacGuffin, grab it, and waltz back home.

And the moment anyone comes out with Drow Kusari-gama I as a GM will slap them DOWN HARD, where did they learn to use those?
Of course if you are mixing and matching no-holds barred ALL melee PRC are useless and only Tippy-fied Wizards or their PRC's are not 'Worst'.

Drow being quite insular are not likely to suddenly have massed training in a HUMAN weapon from a region that in most settings does not exist in the first.

I think a lot of times people are ignoring completely the stated behaviour and culture of races or creatures in DnD and are ascribing what according to descriptions are professionals in tactics, strategy, supply-and-support organisational skills or massive levels of specific knowledge skills like either Arcane, Geography, Meteorology, etc...

Which incidently said races, creatures and so-on do not have as skills but the excuse is that given their Int should allow them to do so anyway...even if said Int is 3, 6 or 10...

Zeful
2009-11-02, 02:51 PM
I'd have to nominate the Archmage as the worst PrC*. It set a bad precedent: Most Prestige Classes have you lose out on something (doubly so with the non-caster ones) But the Archmage got pretty much everything they had before and a bunch of shiny new toys. The only thing they lost was familiar advancement, but having a familiar was optional, it's like having a rogue PrC that gave 2d6 sneak attack, a bonus feat, +2 BAB per level and EX invisibility in exchange for not being able to take Toughness (or Combat Reflexes) as a feat. The Red Wizard is a better PrC by comparison: You lose access to a spell school, which is significant, on top of the familiar thing, in exchange for being able to share power with other Red Wizards (powerful, but limited).

*From a design standpoint, rather than an optimization standpoint.

Roderick_BR
2009-11-02, 02:52 PM
(...)And while getting a wand of Plant Growth might technically work, it makes no sense from a fluff perspective. Big bad enemy of nature makes plants grow big and then kills them. Scary.
(...)
Fattening the herd? :smalltongue:
Seriously, it's almost as bad as the Forsaker from Masters of the Wild (3.0)
You can never use, or accept a spell. Ever. You are on your last HP, and the party cleric wants to use cure wounds? Refuse. If he forces, you need to roll a save to avoid it, as ALL magic is evil.
No magic itens too. No useful things like weapons or armors. You do gain some bonuses to stats (total of +10 to spread on your stats), and the ability to gain bonuses to your attacks and AC as if you were using magic weapons, and even a (lousy) spell resistance.... but get this. If you don't destroy a certain percentage of magic itens every year, your bonus to attack/defense, and SR fades! Yeah, you successfully cleaned your land of these pesky casters and their magic itens... a week later you face a beast that have damage reduction 10/magic, and maybe regeneration. You are screwed.

How about that scarred/dark warrior something from Book of Vile Darkness?
Gain stuff that you could gain anyway with some cheap magic itens. A straight fighter 20 is better than a fighter 10/dark warrior 10 with same WBL.

Milskidasith
2009-11-02, 02:52 PM
Archmage requires three nearly useless feats, so it isn't entirely broken. Sure, you get the equivalent (or better) than a feat each level, but burning feats on generally useless things isn't that great.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 02:55 PM
Actually, a DC 25 tumble checks (10 ranks and a 20 dex to do it on a roll of 10) allow you to tumble through the defender's space.

Without actually space to move through?

Does it make you ethereal?

It says through the space but the description says it does go over the top or through the legs of the target space.
If the whole space is filled...what then?

If it does make you ethereal then you can start using it to attack ethereal creatures, after all, you are ethereal yourself suddenly.

As for the Dwarf being 5 feet think...

What armour is he wearing?
I am about three feet wide wearing my full plate at the shoulders, and I am human of rather medium build.
What is the average build of a dwarf in the players' guide?
On average they seem to be about 3 feet wide wearing nothing.
A DD should be in serious armour with a big shield so 5 feet wide should not exactly be difficult for a dwarf.
Height is the only flaw but with a DD you position them in places where you literally use them as a plug, they fill the spot and for that they are perfect as a npc class.

Boci
2009-11-02, 02:59 PM
Without actually space to move through?

Sorry, rules as written say you can. You find a way, thats part of the DC 25 check (i.e. something no one today could do reliable, and the average person could never do)

DragoonWraith
2009-11-02, 03:01 PM
Except that there's absolutely no rules for any of that, and I find the concept of a five-foot wide dwarf preposterous.

Not to mention that a DC 25 Tumble check could easily imply the acrobatics necessary to jump over the Dwarf.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 03:08 PM
Boci, ok, I will bow to the RAW and Ethereal Tumbler.

Dragoonwratih, the DD as an npc should show up in a place prepared to make the best use of his abilities so you are claiming the best use for a DD is a REALLY HIGH place?
Yes, we are obviously assuming that the DD is sub 1 Intelligence or less.

There is a difference between since it does not say anywhere that you cannot move through solid objects or people while tumbling like the raw application of the tumble rules.
( I think I will tumble through the spot with the door in it, hey it is not airtight so since I can move through any square, even occupied, with a dc 25 roll...)

Heck, as RAW you should be able to do that then :).

Zeful
2009-11-02, 03:08 PM
Archmage requires three nearly useless feats, so it isn't entirely broken. Sure, you get the equivalent (or better) than a feat each level, but burning feats on generally useless things isn't that great.

Except I wasn't saying it was broken. I was saying that the Archmage set a very poor design precedent that shouldn't have existed past the DMG, but did anyway.

I am in effect saying that any class that can replace the standard wizard progression with little or no determent (like the Archmage) should not exist, and be banned from most games because of it.

Dairun Cates
2009-11-02, 03:09 PM
People do seem to misunderstand a bit of the point I was trying to make.

I was never assuming a troll doesn't know "fire bad". Hell. If you look, I was originally pointing out an Ogre. Might've missed the original post, but it somehow became a troll down the line. The real problem here is that you have a troll running AROUND a player character to get to that wizard, not through. Of course he still wants to get to a wizard, but having him run in an arch around a character to avoid an AoO is quite frankly a little ludicrous.

First of all, characters are not actually taking turns to attack. Each set of moves is taking 6 seconds. So, IN HIS REALITY, that troll has no reason to believe that that Dwarf won't intercept him if he tries to run around. In a perfect simulation of a real combat, the dwarf would try to sidestep and intercept him (arguments about keeping your abilities non-withstanding). The only reason he can't is because D&D is turn-based. Bring in the idea that you can just "run around the dwarf" is inherently bringing in a construct of the combat system as FACT into the real world. "I can get around him because he can't move until after I've done my full move". He also has very little reason to believe he won't drop the dwarf in a hit. He has no way of knowing he's anything other than level 1 or 2 without some kind of knowledge skill he doesn't likely have.

So, it's not the fact that a troll would hit a wizard that just fireballed him that's horrendous meta-gaming here. It's the literal thought process of "Okay. I'm going to run AROUND the front-line tank, because he I can't take him down in one hit when I'm a CR appropriate encounter, and I don't want to take an Attack of Opportunity. So, I'm going to break my charge and momentum and take a long arch to reach this wizard, and none of the party members will be able to stop me from doing this because of turn mechanics."

The troll is not a rogue, he should not rationally see a reason to run around instead of through.

This isn't the only example I've seen of this though. I've seen DMs literally make monsters run around traps the players set up that they shouldn't have any knowledge of. Or I've seen monsters charge the character that's most effective at killing them BEFORE THAT PERSON EVEN ATTACKED because the monster "can SENSE that you're the most damaging person here" forgoing the people that just hit him.

Now, your players are going to do some of this sometimes, and you can't exactly stop that, but that really doesn't mean you should. The players being able to abuse movement mechanics is a small advantage over being able to know the stats of everything on the board. Your job as a DM is to entertain your players, not outright kill them. If you're going to take every advantage you have as a DM, you're going to kill your players every single time, and most people don't find that fun.

So, like I said, there's no reason to have to make the Troll omniscient about the existence of movement mechanics and how they work. If the obstacle you've given your players is not interesting, don't try to milk it for all its worth. Give them a better obstacle.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-02, 03:13 PM
In a perfect simulation of a real combat, the dwarf would try to sidestep and intercept him (arguments about keeping your abilities non-withstanding).

So, you're saying that in a perfect simulation of real combat, a dwarven defender would be able to move?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-02, 03:14 PM
Without actually space to move through?

Between the legs. Your dwarf, even if he is somehow 5 ft thick, is not an 125 cubic foot cube.


Boci, ok, I will bow to the RAW and Ethereal Tumbler.

You are incorrect about how tumble works. No need to get angry over it and take it out on other people with exaggerated straw man arguments.

Eldariel
2009-11-02, 03:15 PM
So, like I said, there's no reason to have to make the Troll omniscient about the existence of movement mechanics and how they work. If the obstacle you've given your players is not interesting, don't try to milk it for all its worth. Give them a better obstacle.

The real question is whether rules are just an attempt to simulate how things work in the world, or how things actually work in the world. If that's how things actually work in the world, walking around the Dwarf makes all kinds of sense (by the way, if the Troll sees the Dwarf dig into a position where he cannot move, I don't see why he wouldn't just ignore the Dwarf).

If it's a simulation...well, things hit the fan 'cause things that SHOULD work don't and things that should NOT work do. I can't really see a way to play the game other than make the creatures "aware enough" of the mechanics of the game to understand the consequences of their actions, just like we are aware of the consequences of our actions in our world. Really, D&D needs a modified turn system (I was working on one, actually) if you want to represent these scenarios accurately.


As things stand, I find it smaller loss to follow the game rules and make creatures aware of them, than to follow the game rules but make creatures think things work like in a simulation. If creatures act on a different basis than by which their actions are adjudicated, it just leads to all kinds of idiocy. And by these rules, the "walk past the Dwarf" works fine. In fact, that's why lockdown works so well under these rules.

Boci
2009-11-02, 03:17 PM
( I think I will tumble through the spot with the door in it, hey it is not airtight so since I can move through any square, even occupied, with a dc 25 roll...)

Heck, as RAW you should be able to do that then :).

Doesn't work. The door is 100% solid (no one can argue that, a DD on the other hand does require 2ft of armour to become 5ft wide, and is a lot more flexable than the door), and does not count as an opponent.

How you tumble past a dwarven defender:

1. Between his legs

2. Over his head

3. Tip him off balance and rush through the gap created

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 03:19 PM
It is easier to imagine them to turn ethereal then to imagine that a humanoid creature which taller then the dwarf would be able to fit through the legs of someone like a DD with a big shield.

It runs again into the little detail that the person TUMBLING through would take less space then the half a foot space that is free :).

Lets not forget it is tumbling through, not diving while turning 2 dimensional :).

Edit: Ps, here is the SRD quote:

25 Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

There is indeed no reference to it needing space, so yes it would work regardless of actually space to move through as RAW.
Sadly enough it does mention enemy so it seems my door is safe from me unless I can designate it as an enemy target...

Hum, going to look into that.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-02, 03:21 PM
By ECL 16 a Geomancer can gain 6 natural attacks, plus your normal attack routine, plus your spells (from a nerfed progression). While nothing amazing, and certainly much weaker then full casters, it's also a lot better then most half-caster classes. And there are plenty of ways to exploit it - Arcane Strike, Divine Power, etc.

Six natural attacks? I can get that out of a Warforged Totemist by ECL 9th. Seriously, that's nothing special at all. The fact that the class requires you to be MAD and lose casting advancement on one entire class and levels in another is what makes it bad . Remember, it requires the ability to cast 2nd level Arcane/Divine, but only advances one, and you can't cast 2nd level spells without a 12 in that score. I know a 12 in two ability scores isn't much, but I'd rather not waste 3 levels in a Divine class and 4 points out of my character creation.

Boci
2009-11-02, 03:21 PM
It is easier to imagine them to turn ethereal then to imagine that a humanoid creature which taller then the dwarf would be able to fit through the legs of someone like a DD with a big shield.

It runs again into the little detail that the person TUMBLING through would take less space then the half a foot space that is free :).

Lets not forget it is tumbling through, not diving while turning 2 dimensional :).

Manyshot seems wierd if you rule that it fires one arrow that splits into multiple ones mid flight. Just use your imagination.

1. Over his head

2. Tip him off balance and rush through the gap created

Thats me not even trying.

Kurald Galain
2009-11-02, 03:22 PM
In a perfect simulation of a real combat, the dwarf would try to sidestep and intercept him (arguments about keeping your abilities non-withstanding). The only reason he can't is because D&D is turn-based.

Precisely. You have just pointed out the major weakness of the D&D combat system. You'd be amazed as to how many kludges have been written over the past years to try and circumvent this problem.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 03:28 PM
Manyshot seems wierd if you rule that it fires one arrow that splits into multiple ones mid flight. Just use your imagination.

1. Over his head

2. Tip him off balance and rush through the gap created

Thats me not even trying.

Tipping a DD off-balance?

Ok...

Yes, again we do know that the DD won't be used except on a featureless flat plane without anything to funnel enemies towards him because he, unlike the Int 6 Troll, cannot use any tactics or strategies :).

Gametime
2009-11-02, 03:29 PM
It is easier to imagine them to turn ethereal then to imagine that a humanoid creature which taller then the dwarf would be able to fit through the legs of someone like a DD with a big shield.

It runs again into the little detail that the person TUMBLING through would take less space then the half a foot space that is free :).

Lets not forget it is tumbling through, not diving while turning 2 dimensional :).


So get back to us when you've rolled up a dwarf who is impossible to jump over, roll under, or dodge around. Until then, you're just aggressively equating "agile" with "ethereal" for no reason other than to discredit opposing arguments.


I am in effect saying that any class that can replace the standard wizard progression with little or no determent (like the Archmage) should not exist, and be banned from most games because of it.

I'll agree with your point, but feel I should point out that the Archmage is a much less notorious offender than the prestige classes inspired by the precedent. While the cost is worth it for most abilities, giving up spell slots (especially high level ones) isn't nothing. Compared to something like the IotSV, which has EASIER requirements than the Archmage, offers more powerful abilities, and does so AT NO COST is obviously absurd.

Boci
2009-11-02, 03:30 PM
Yes, again we do know that the DD won't be used except on a featureless flat plane without anything to funnel enemies towards him because he, unlike the Int 6 Troll, cannot use any tactics or strategies :).

Even in a corridor, you can tumbel past him if you meet the check. If you do, you have a high dexterity which means you could employ some aikido style pinpoint attack that bypasses the DD armour, causing no damage but momentarily disrupting his balance, which you exploit to slip past. Its not hard to think up these things. And its D&D, not everything is going to make sense.

Gametime
2009-11-02, 03:32 PM
Tipping a DD off-balance?

Ok...

Yes, again we do know that the DD won't be used except on a featureless flat plane without anything to funnel enemies towards him because he, unlike the Int 6 Troll, cannot use any tactics or strategies :).

I think it's interesting that you object to other people not giving the DD fair treatment with regard to tactics, but you refuse to allow even the slightest possibility that a common skill check explicitly spelled out in the most common core book could ever be enacted.

There are a million ways to represent tumbling through the five foot square inhabited by a dwarf. Most of them aren't even remotely difficult to envision occurring in real life. Picking on the ONE that doesn't work for your ONE specific example just makes you seem like a contrarian.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-02, 03:32 PM
Tipping a DD off-balance?

Ok...

Yes, again we do know that the DD won't be used except on a featureless flat plane without anything to funnel enemies towards him because he, unlike the Int 6 Troll, cannot use any tactics or strategies :).

Unless he physically takes up the entire opening, and for some reason, cannot be budged whatsoever, they can get past him. Of course, in that instance, he also wouldn't get a dex bonus or get a reflex save, since dodging is obviously impossible.

It's not a matter of strategy and tactics when your ability prevents you from moving. Thats a limitation of the class.

BRC
2009-11-02, 03:34 PM
So get back to us when you've rolled up a dwarf who is impossible to jump over, roll under, or dodge around. Until then, you're just aggressively equating "agile" with "ethereal" for no reason other than to discredit opposing arguments.



I'll agree with your point, but feel I should point out that the Archmage is a much less notorious offender than the prestige classes inspired by the precedent. While the cost is worth it for most abilities, giving up spell slots (especially high level ones) isn't nothing. Compared to something like the IotSV, which has EASIER requirements than the Archmage, offers more powerful abilities, and does so AT NO COST is obviously absurd.
Now, the IotSV is another beast altogether. I believe the only way it got into a book was the guy who designed it was the DM for the people in charge of playtesting and said "Listen, if you declare this class balanced enough for publishing, I'll let you play one in our campaign".
Said designer did not let them use it of course.

Zeful
2009-11-02, 03:39 PM
I'll agree with your point, but feel I should point out that the Archmage is a much less notorious offender than the prestige classes inspired by the precedent. While the cost is worth it for most abilities, giving up spell slots (especially high level ones) isn't nothing. Compared to something like the IotSV, which has EASIER requirements than the Archmage, offers more powerful abilities, and does so AT NO COST is obviously absurd.

Okay point, many of the Archmage's abilities have additional costs to make up for the class as a whole, but I was more referring to the Cl boosting ability rather than the other ones.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-02, 03:40 PM
Honestly, three dead feats is a pretty heavy cost for Archmage. Combining that with the loss of high level spell slots is a very fair trade for what you get.

mostlyharmful
2009-11-02, 03:42 PM
There's other ways to ignore said dwarf, a ring of Blink say. Getting hold of ways of turning Ethereal for a momet or two isn't hard and is damn useful even without dwarven roadblocks.

For rubbish PrCs I was thinking of this passage from the Revised Necromancers Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook)


'Yathrinshee, the Dark Beauties of Bad Class Features
Like the True Necromancer, this is an arcane/divine combo PrC that is very cool and we'd totally play it if it wasn't completely crippled. Aside from the class requiring you to be a totally hot necromancer dark elf chick, it wants you to have five levels of Cleric of some god you don't care about and three levels of Wizard. Then, over the coarse of 10 levels you lose FOUR more caster levels from both your classes. Add in your level adjustment for being a drow, and at 20th level you are...wait for it...NINE levels behind in your cleric spells and ELEVEN levels behind in your Wizard casting. You can't even try to mitigate this with Ur-Priest cheese, since you need to follow this one god to get into this class.

Basically, this class has all the problems of a True Necromancer, but worse, and better flavor abilities. Their one great ability is the Curse of the Revanancer, which is awesome, as it lets you kill things with spells and they automatically become zombies under your control. Thats cool, and even very powerful under the right circumstances, but how are you even supposed to kill things with your spells at any point in your career? '

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 03:42 PM
So get back to us when you've rolled up a dwarf who is impossible to jump over, roll under, or dodge around. Until then, you're just aggressively equating "agile" with "ethereal" for no reason other than to discredit opposing arguments.


Perhaps you noticed that I mentioned that the DD was npc class effectively which would only be used in specific places?

Where the DD's strengths would come into play.

I.e. he would be in a small gap with a low ceiling which he fills completely or a tunnel that he prepares for himself as a defensive position.

This premise then got countered with: I tumble THROUGH him.

So, picture a small tunnel with defensive works with a small gap which the DD fills...
Obviously the DD being a DWARF would not pick a place were everything could simply leap over him or run around him (unless you of course ascribe to the idea that the DD CANNOT use his Int for prepping himself to fight defensively but a Troll can use his Int to run around a melee target to engage another target which is more fragile instantly without requiring any rolls or checks to work out who hit him with what exactly.).

The RAW simply states if you make the roll that you pass over, under or around him, no reference anywhere that you need to be able to FIT.
Heck you could have a huge creature with enough dex who could make the dc of the roll and who would move through the physical spot the DD is standing in without displacing the DD.

Since something has to happen to allow you to move through a solid object I state the theory that Tumbling turns you ethereal...
Perhaps you prefer something else, say 2 dimensional?
Teleporting?

You could even use it technically to move through a door opening that is too small for you if there is an opponent in the door...
And that would be RAW.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-02, 03:44 PM
And the moment anyone comes out with Drow Kusari-gama I as a GM will slap them DOWN HARD, where did they learn to use those?
Of course if you are mixing and matching no-holds barred ALL melee PRC are useless and only Tippy-fied Wizards or their PRC's are not 'Worst'.

Drow being quite insular are not likely to suddenly have massed training in a HUMAN weapon from a region that in most settings does not exist in the first.

I think a lot of times people are ignoring completely the stated behaviour and culture of races or creatures in DnD and are ascribing what according to descriptions are professionals in tactics, strategy, supply-and-support organisational skills or massive levels of specific knowledge skills like either Arcane, Geography, Meteorology, etc...

Which incidently said races, creatures and so-on do not have as skills but the excuse is that given their Int should allow them to do so anyway...even if said Int is 3, 6 or 10...


I dislike your generalization of all the anti-DD people, your assumption that we're willfully ignoring things, and the phrasing of the statement that implies you're not similarly painting scenarios that conform to your own prejudices.

I dislike your generalization of all the anti-DD people, your assumption that we're willfully ignoring things, your strawman reference to tippy, and your accusations of metagaming. :smallannoyed:

Where did the drow learn to use kusari-gama? The same way they learned to use spiked chains, which are presented in-core as a setting-neutral item. The kusari-gama is just a smaller version of the same item - and the scenario would be the same with a spiked chain. No need to invoke questionable "oriental" fluff. (BTW, why is the kusari-gama a "human" weapon?)

Actually, if you mix and match, melee benefits more than casters. And mixing and matching is traditionally how IRL people acted - take ideas from others (e.g. trade) and build on them. Standard tippyverse wizard is a paranoid diviner (in core, in D&D fluff, no mixing needed) who teleports willy-nilly (in core, in D&D fluff, no mixing needed) and hides in his personal sanctum (in core, in D&D fluff, no mixing needed).

Where does anyone anywhere ignore any stated behavior? Duergar, as described in the MM, are like dwarves; and like dwarves they will be disciplined enough that a good tactician will do his best to avoid the DD choke point, and be fairly successful. Drow, as described in the MM, are in a magic-heavy society full of assassins, and a successful assassin will likely have some sort of teleportation or etherealness ability - or at the very least the ability to make a DC 25 Tumble check.

The enemies that will be unable to use tactics are monstrous brutes. Most of these will be unable to fit into dwarven tunnels to even get to whatever the defender is defending. The dwarven defender is effective against orcs, though; nobody ever denied this. The thing is, the disorganized orcs can be taken out by the highly organized dwarven army and its archers without terrible need for the DD to ever get involved.

All we're talking is tactics, and a little bit of strategy in this post. All entirely reasonable for organized duegar and cunning, intelligent drow - i.e. the real threats. Nobody mentioned supply lines and nobody mentioned massive specific knowledge skills. As the races we are discussing either have an average Int of 12 or are commanded by somebody with extensive battle knowledge and likely Int 12+, the point about too stupid races is moot.



(tumble stuff)


What you are proposing is that the dwarven defender is fighting in a space such that during the entire course of his fighting, he never leaves a gap between him and a wall wide enough for a fellow to pass through. Sounds good, but there's a catch. Any such space would severely hamper the mobility necessarily to effectively make attacks, and count as squeezing. This imposes both an AC and an attack penalty, as you can neither move your axe properly nor dodge an attack that would otherwise hit through a joint in your armor. Afterwards, the most likely intelligent tumbler-assassin would likely retreat, use ranged attacks with his prodigious dexterity, and live up to his reputation for competence.

As Boci added (unfortunately after your post, in an edit) there are ways to get past the dwarven defender. Feint him to have his shield in a place that lets you jump through a corner. Make a few attacks at him to manipulate his balance, and then again tumble through when his shield isn't blocking everything. Or just make the Escape Artist check to tumble through a space that your head can fit through.



Address to deadmeat over, address to Dariun begins.




I was never assuming a troll doesn't know "fire bad". Hell. If you look, I was originally pointing out an Ogre. Might've missed the original post, but it somehow became a troll down the line.
It started off as a troll with Jonesthespy, and people were largely responding to the troll scenario. Your ogre post was introduced a dozen posts later.


The real problem here is that you have a troll running AROUND a player character to get to that wizard, not through. Of course he still wants to get to a wizard, but having him run in an arch around a character to avoid an AoO is quite frankly a little ludicrous.
Indeed, it is a better idea to have the ogre jump over puny short dwarf midget. And take the AoO too. But most people don't think like that, sadly.


In a perfect simulation of a real combat, the dwarf would try to sidestep and intercept him (arguments about keeping your abilities non-withstanding).
And that's exactly why the Dwarven Defender is bad, because it doesn't simulate defending well. A real dwarven defender would just sidestep and intercept the ogre/troll, so that his allies can be defended. The prestige class gives you hefty penalties if you try to do that - poor design.


He also has very little reason to believe he won't drop the dwarf in a hit. He has no way of knowing he's anything other than level 1 or 2 without some kind of knowledge skill he doesn't likely have.
If you're an ogre, this is a good idea. Your ogre example stands. But if it's a troll, a more complex example that is more profitable to debate, the issue is different.
There's a dwarf in front of you with armor and an axe. He can't really hurt you, and you can drop him with a good hit. So you're about to, and are charging towards him to do so. But then a guy in the back throws fire at you. Very painful. You need to get to him and kill him now - you don't have time to knock the dwarf man upside the head. So you leap over him, suck up the wound that will heal quickly, and start beating a wizard.


So, I'm going to break my charge and momentum and take a long arch to reach this wizard,
Did anyone actually say that you should take an arc around? Somebody might have, I'm not sure. But even if the troll runs through, your defensive stance is mostly useless. It gave you +2 attack and damage for one attack of opportunity. Whoop-de-arse****ing-do. Now you have to move more than 5 feet over to the mage and suck a -2 strength penalty.


This isn't the only example I've seen of this though. I've seen DMs literally make monsters run around traps the players set up that they shouldn't have any knowledge of.
We're not those DMs, and we ought not to be assumed to act like them.

Boci
2009-11-02, 03:46 PM
Perhaps you noticed that I mentioned that the DD was npc class effectively which would only be used in specific places?

Where the DD's strengths would come into play.

I.e. he would be in a small gap with a low ceiling which he fills completely or a tunnel that he prepares for himself as a defensive position.

This premise then got countered with: I tumble THROUGH him.

Yep, thats the one you got, along which some explanations as to how could be explained in game. And we haven't even touched on the idea of ranged weapon yet.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-02, 03:48 PM
Or you use swordsage powers to teleport past him. Or you actually become ethereal, which is possible if drow are fighting deep dwarves.

Or you use a ranged weapon.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-02, 03:50 PM
OK, here's a dumb question:

Even if a DD somehow managed to force someone to try to barge their way through him, in melee - would he be any good at it? Even ignoring the preposterous "you can't move" requirement, the bonuses that he gets never struck me as all that good. Hell, if necessary, you can force him to trigger Defensive Stance, wait a minute, and then go at him after he's fatigued himself standing in a doorway.

Tyndmyr
2009-11-02, 03:51 PM
Any place that is sufficiently tight that the DD can't be reasonably bypassed is also sufficiently tight that the rest of his group is worthless.

Therefore, the DD isn't actually worth anything as a shield wall.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-02, 03:56 PM
It is easier to imagine them to turn ethereal then to imagine that a humanoid creature which taller then the dwarf would be able to fit through the legs of someone like a DD with a big shield.

So the 125 cu. ft. DD* has a shield now.


*Hey, if rogues are Ethereal Tumblers...

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 04:04 PM
I dislike your generalization of all the anti-DD people, your assumption that we're willfully ignoring things, your strawman reference to tippy, and your accusations of metagaming. :smallannoyed:

Where did the drow learn to use kusari-gama? The same way they learned to use spiked chains, which are presented in-core as a setting-neutral item. The kusari-gama is just a smaller version of the same item - and the scenario would be the same with a spiked chain. No need to invoke questionable "oriental" fluff. (BTW, why is the kusari-gama a "human" weapon?)

Actually, if you mix and match, melee benefits more than casters. And mixing and matching is traditionally how IRL people acted - take ideas from others (e.g. trade) and build on them. Standard tippyverse wizard is a paranoid diviner (in core, in D&D fluff, no mixing needed) who teleports willy-nilly (in core, in D&D fluff, no mixing needed) and hides in his personal sanctum (in core, in D&D fluff, no mixing needed).

Where does anyone anywhere ignore any stated behavior? Duergar, as described in the MM, are like dwarves; and like dwarves they will be disciplined enough that a good tactician will do his best to avoid the DD choke point, and be fairly successful. Drow, as described in the MM, are in a magic-heavy society full of assassins, and a successful assassin will likely have some sort of teleportation or etherealness ability - or at the very least the ability to make a DC 25 Tumble check.

The enemies that will be unable to use tactics are monstrous brutes. Most of these will be unable to fit into dwarven tunnels to even get to whatever the defender is defending. The dwarven defender is effective against orcs, though; nobody ever denied this. The thing is, the disorganized orcs can be taken out by the highly organized dwarven army and its archers without terrible need for the DD to ever get involved.

All we're talking is tactics, and a little bit of strategy in this post. All entirely reasonable for organized duegar and cunning, intelligent drow - i.e. the real threats. Nobody mentioned supply lines and nobody mentioned massive specific knowledge skills. As the races we are discussing either have an average Int of 12 or are commanded by somebody with extensive battle knowledge and likely Int 12+, the point about too stupid races is moot.




What you are proposing is that the dwarven defender is fighting in a space such that during the entire course of his fighting, he never leaves a gap between him and a wall wide enough for a fellow to pass through. Sounds good, but there's a catch. Any such space would severely hamper the mobility necessarily to effectively make attacks, and count as squeezing. This imposes both an AC and an attack penalty, as you can neither move your axe properly nor dodge an attack that would otherwise hit through a joint in your armor. Afterwards, the most likely intelligent tumbler-assassin would likely retreat, use ranged attacks with his prodigious dexterity, and live up to his reputation for competence.

As Boci added (unfortunately after your post, in an edit) there are ways to get past the dwarven defender. Feint him to have his shield in a place that lets you jump through a corner. Make a few attacks at him to manipulate his balance, and then again tumble through when his shield isn't blocking everything. Or just make the Escape Artist check to tumble through a space that your head can fit through.


I accepted Boci's tumbling, I merely highly amused with it since the premise I stated.

Tumbling does not include the ability to feint in DND does it?
I thought that would fall under Bluff?
As for making a set of attacks I am not sure but I think a DD would be a lot more difficult then most to shift.

As for Duergar, Drow and such yes, I can see them do things like tunnel, go ethereal and such to simply by-pass the DD and kill him from behind where his is not really prepared for defending.
People were more saying that all monsters and creatures would use such tactics.
All of them.

That is a lot more the GM then the monsters which you are then fighting :).

The original premise was the worst PRC, the DD is not the worst PRC, being lumped in here as the 'worst' is a bit harsh on a flavourful but weak PRC.

What I refered to mixing and matching was that a lot of the PRC's put here as the 'worst' are the ones with less then full casting or which effectively weaken casting.
I exagerated and refered to Tippy's wizards then as a the only ones (as in most examples I have seen a few dips which did not change the full casting power) that would have PRC's that did not fall under the suddenly rather generous section of 'worst' PRC's.

As for the spiked chain, it is indeed a generic weapon, however in none of the fluff refering to the Drow does it refer to them using this weapon for their assassins and the common weapons they use are quite well described in several places.
Going from spiked chain to kusari-gama is a fair bit of a leap.

The fact that the Longbow is a generic setting weapon does not make the Elven Longbow suddenly a weapon that is going to be common to humans.

And the kusari-gama would fall under this.
It is a weapon that comes from a specific setting one, two said setting is almost purely human and in there almost always is it used by humans.
Ergo I said a human weapon, I am sorry perhaps I should have said generally human weapon.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-02, 04:08 PM
And the kusari-gama would fall under this.
It is a weapon that comes from a specific setting one, two said setting is almost purely human and in there almost always is it used by humans.

I'm sorry, information on settings was left out of my copy of the SRD. It seems that my Drow monks will indeed be using kusari-gama.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-02, 04:10 PM
As for the spiked chain, it is indeed a generic weapon, however in none of the fluff refering to the Drow does it refer to them using this weapon for their assassins and the common weapons they use are quite well described in several places.
Going from spiked chain to kusari-gama is a fair bit of a leap.


Drow have their own Spiked Chain Prc. They are the only Spiked Chain Prc.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-02, 04:10 PM
So the 125 cu. ft. DD* has a shield now.s...

Well, yeah, even the 5 cu. ft. DD has a shield.



People were more saying that all monsters and creatures would use such tactics.
All of them.

Hm, odd. I never read such an interpretation, though it might certainly have been implied somewhere. My thesis is that the monsters that wouldn't use such tactics are either
1) Too big to fit in the dwarven tunnels, so if the dwarven defender is somehow needed to fight them, his home field advantage is gone
2) So disorganized that generally a proper dwarf army can rout them before the elite guard has to be called in


The original premise was the worst PRC, the DD is not the worst PRC, being lumped in here as the 'worst' is a bit harsh on a flavourful but weak PRC.

Flavorful? It's a dwarf that is good at defense. Oh, look, just like every other dwarven fighter with a hearty respect for his own race. Whee.
But it's not the worst, yeah. All this discussion is a derailing. The Witchborn Binder would be my nominee for worst.



I'm sorry, information on settings was left out of my copy of the SRD. It seems that my Drow monks will indeed be using kusari-gama.

Well, the fact that you're using monks and ninja in the first place (monks in this post, ninja in the original kusari-gama post) is probably what is offensive. And while I do heartily approve of extensive refluff, it's not for everyone.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 04:10 PM
OK, here's a dumb question:

Even if a DD somehow managed to force someone to try to barge their way through him, in melee - would he be any good at it? Even ignoring the preposterous "you can't move" requirement, the bonuses that he gets never struck me as all that good. Hell, if necessary, you can force him to trigger Defensive Stance, wait a minute, and then go at him after he's fatigued himself standing in a doorway.

You are right, as a PC it is a very weak PRC, as an NPC PRC it is ok and you can indeed break him down if you throw enough people at him or if you use knowledge about the PRC actual rules to bypass his features but that last bit is a wee bit using some knowledge the opponent is unlikely to have.

As an npc a DD guardpost with several DD's and dwarven crossbowmen or such as back-up would be appropriate for Dwarven hold gate or inner gate.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 04:12 PM
Drow have their own Spiked Chain Prc. They are the only Spiked Chain Prc.

Ah, I missed a book on the Drow then, which book is this in?

Pretty please and my appologies if they actually have a Spiked Chain PRC, they have a reason then to learn to use so the improvement to Kusari-gama is then merely unlikely but possible.

My apologies to you Pharoa, if there is indeed a PRC for a spiked chain for Drow, having Drow assassins use them as much as weapons to trip as as to intimidate is perfectly in character for Drow.

Boci
2009-11-02, 04:13 PM
I accepted Boci's tumbling, I merely highly amused with it since the premise I stated.

Tumbling does not include the ability to feint in DND does it?
I thought that would fall under Bluff?
As for making a set of attacks I am not sure but I think a DD would be a lot more difficult then most to shift.

I find your lack of imagination disturbing. Feinting to make the opponent flatfooted falls under the bluff skill. Any other form of feinting can fall under anything you want.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-02, 04:14 PM
Was it the BDMS-ish PrC* from Drow of Underdark?


*Technically all of them, I guess...

Starbuck_II
2009-11-02, 04:16 PM
Ah, I missed a book on the Drow then, which book is this in?

Pretty please and my appologies if they actually have a Spiked Chain PRC, they have a reason then to learn to use so the improvement to Kusari-gama is then merely unlikely but possible.

My apologies to you Pharoa, if there is indeed a PRC for a spiked chain for Drow, having Drow assassins use them as much as weapons to trip as as to intimidate is perfectly in character for Drow.

The Cavestalker PrC from Drow of the Underdark focuses exclusively on spiked chain. He can eventually dual wield 2 of them (yes they are 2 handed weapons but they get to do it).

AstralFire
2009-11-02, 04:17 PM
Ah, I missed a book on the Drow then, which book is this in?

Pretty please and my appologies if they actually have a Spiked Chain PRC, they have a reason then to learn to use so the improvement to Kusari-gama is then merely unlikely but possible.

My apologies to you Pharoa, if there is indeed a PRC for a spiked chain for Drow, having Drow assassins use them as much as weapons to trip as as to intimidate is perfectly in character for Drow.

I don't know the PrC, but Eberronian Drow even have a spiked chain variant that's all theirs - the scorpion chain. It is a weapon equivalent of the spiked chain, meaning that any feats applicable to one are also applicable to the other.


Was it the BDMS-ish PrC* from Drow of Underdark?


*Technically all of them, I guess...

Humans recently decided to rechristen 'fetish hour' at their sex bars 'Drow Ethnic Acceptance Hour.'

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 04:20 PM
Except Boci that one moment we are using only RAW then we are using our imagination which kinda makes that rather more difficult.

If you force RAW only but for the next ruling expect to use RAI things get more complicated.

Pharaoh's Fist, I remember of the cuff half a dozen whip based PRC's in the different books for the Drow, not immediately any spiked chains so I do know they really like their ranged tripping and their penchant for dominatrix style play.

Thank you Starbuck, grabbing my copy and having another look asap, my campaign party needs another reason to wary of Drow :).

Doug Lampert
2009-11-02, 04:21 PM
people make the mistake of thinking 6 int = 60 IQ.
The int scale is fairly arbitrary and each point has different values depends on what it is. (aka, 1 - 2 = animal, 3 int+ is humanlike intelligence, 10 int is average human intelligence, 18 int is max a human can be born with... So 3 int is about 70IQ, 2 is much lower, 18 is more than 180IQ, and so on)


Really? I was under the impression that the scale mapped closely to the bell curve generated by 3d6.

StDev of 3d6 is almost exactly 3, StDev of IQ tests is usually normalized to be 15. Change INT by 1=change IQ by 5 if you believe that they both measure the same thing.

Average IQ is supposed to be 100, most tests actually average a bit higher. 3d6 averages 10.5. You get the curves to match pretty well with IQ=5*INT+50. Which someone else already gave. IQ=5*INT+47.5 will give the average of exactly 100 that the IQ test should have.

Thus INT 6 is roughly IQ 77.5 or IQ 80, either is fully functional and not considered retarded or mentally disabled.

But note that wolves are able to use quite good combat tactics, and they're INT 2, a lot of tactics is Wisdom, not Int. It's recognizing what's going on and spotting things that are obvious if you understand the situation and spot what's happening. Flanking is good, if one foe is dangerous you should retreat or avoid him or take him out first. Ext...

Trolls can understand ranged attacks (most animals can't), that means they WILL understand that the guy throwing the magic ball of fire which explodes when it gets to him is dangerous, and WILL also understand that they can't avoid the ranged attack short of fleeing the field, and he probably WON'T understand that the wizard is likely now out of fireballs and much less dangerous.

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 04:21 PM
Except I wasn't saying it was broken. I was saying that the Archmage set a very poor design precedent that shouldn't have existed past the DMG, but did anyway.

I am in effect saying that any class that can replace the standard wizard progression with little or no determent (like the Archmage) should not exist, and be banned from most games because of it.
I'd argue that archmage is actually excellent design precedent since it costs you something for every special ability you take. A "poor" precedent would be Loremaster or similar easily entered classes whose prereqs are pretty much things that most casters take anyway, excepting the one skill focus feat.

Seatbelt
2009-11-02, 04:22 PM
I rolled a DD once. He eventually died because his AC bonus didn't scale with the enemy's ability to hit (which is a problem with AC in general and the DM not liking to hand out a ton of treasure). His damage WAS pretty sad and at the end the character wasn't that fun to play in most combat situations, where pretty much everyone out fought him. So please note that I am not saying the DD is a good class.



But I never had problems with people moving away from me. I managed a bit of a lockdown build. Used a spiked chain, bought a belt that let me Enlarge Person at least once per day (or maybe for a number of rounds..? I forget), and I had some different items that let me teleport up to like 60 feet. When I used defensive stance, monsters getting away from me were often NOT the problem. That being said, all the gear and feats I invested into being able to be near my foes meant that actually KILLING the monsters was usually the problem.

From a rollplay stand point that character was very fun to play. I was Knight x/DDx. It was great.

Wulfram
2009-11-02, 04:26 PM
I think in an earlier thread like this one, there was talk of the Swanmay, whose main ability was turning into a swan.

Boci
2009-11-02, 04:26 PM
Except Boci that one moment we are using only RAW then we are using our imagination which kinda makes that rather more difficult.

If you force RAW only but for the next ruling expect to use RAI things get more complicated.

How is justifying the use of the tumble skill by feinting RAI? RAW I can tumble though an enemy's square with a result of 25 or higher on my tumble check. The feinting thing is me justifying how RAW translates into game, since presumably my character does not just walk up to the DD and say "I beat the DC: 25 check, you now have to move aside now".

RAI was never relevant here.

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 04:32 PM
I think in an earlier thread like this one, there was talk of the Swanmay, whose main ability was turning into a swan.
Swanmay isn't too bad. 9/10 casting, good BAB, become fey and gain DR 10/cold iron as a capstone.

Optimystik
2009-11-02, 04:47 PM
Swanmay isn't too bad. 9/10 casting, good BAB, become fey and gain DR 10/cold iron as a capstone.

Yeah, I'd say it's one of the more flavorful PrCs for a fey-themed CG warlock.

PumpkinJack
2009-11-02, 04:55 PM
I'll say True Necromancer since it fails so completely at what it's trying to accomplish.

Dairun Cates
2009-11-02, 04:55 PM
Precisely. You have just pointed out the major weakness of the D&D combat system. You'd be amazed as to how many kludges have been written over the past years to try and circumvent this problem.

Of course it's a major weakness (I wouldn't say "the". There's far bigger design problems with d20 as a whole). Every system has a few. Generally though, you shouldn't be barging a hole through it.



Did anyone actually say that you should take an arc around? Somebody might have, I'm not sure. But even if the troll runs through, your defensive stance is mostly useless. It gave you +2 attack and damage for one attack of opportunity. Whoop-de-arse****ing-do. Now you have to move more than 5 feet over to the mage and suck a -2 strength penalty.


We're not those DMs, and we ought not to be assumed to act like them.

The arch is mostly coming from a statement near the beginning of the thread with something to the tune of "I see no reason why the monsters shouldn't just move around the tank and attack the caster." The rationale here is, even though it's minor damage, why not just avoid the AoO entirely by going around outside of the tank's reach. He's reasonably intelligent, why would he take an AoO that'll do a little bit of damage he'll need to regen when he can just avoid it. It wouldn't logically work that way in a real battle, but that's how the game is.

Whether it's a DD or not (which is a sufficiently crappy PrC, yes.), that's the dangerous kind of logic that leads to that horrible kind of DM meta-gaming. Once you've rationalized one thing, you can rationalize a lot as long as you do it one step at a time.

Well, he's smart enough to move around. The troll rolled high enough on his initiative to go first. He's probably seen a couple of fights. It's not a huge jump in logic to say he knows what a wizard is and has killed one before.

He knows to attack the guy with a staff/no weapon and no armor because he's probably the wizard, and wizard's shoot fireballs.

He knows to take down the wizard.

So, why not just attack them first before they even get that fireball off?

So, the troll will do this on the first turn before the wizard even fires off a spell.

It's not a huge leap in logic. So, it's well-within his intelligence to do it.

That's how this kind of logic evolves and how it gets rationalized. In a few steps, you've gone from a troll that's just attacking the wizard because he got fireballed to a troll that's outmaneuvering your party and attacking the wizard before he even gets a spell off. This same kind of logic gets used by a DM to circumvent readied actions ("because he attacked last turn. So he must be readying something. I'll do something INSTEAD of what I was going to do this round to negate his readied action.") and tactical traps ("That character didn't charge me immediately. He's either got a plan, a trap, or has a class skill that requires him not to move. I'll switch to ranged combat and throw big ass rocks.").

These could be logical conclusions the monster could make, but the problem is that the monster won't always make them. He'll make them when they're RIGHT. You can argue that the Troll will move around, attack the wizard before he goes, will change actions if someone is holding, and won't charge if the party doesn't charge him first, but does every troll the party runs into follow similar logic?

If the party realizes it's going to go against a troll AGAIN, will holding an action fake the troll out? Will dressing the fighter up like a wizard make the troll attack him first? Will holding the line convince the troll there's a trap? Can players assume the troll will always try to run around and hold their action so they can intercept him?

In a lot of cases, the answer will be no, because the DM knows this isn't going to work for the monster and has effectively rationalized that the monster knows what he/she does. "They're not THAT stupid. So, they're not going to fall for that."

Because he knows it's going to happen, and because the monster is sentient, the monster knows it too.

Having monsters adapt tactics because YOU can adapt tactics makes combat lack consistency. This can and will frustrate your players if taken too far. You can go the "every monster is incredibly tactical" route, but your players should be able to fake out those tactics. Monsters should fall for tricks that you as a DM wouldn't.

Then, of course, the party runs into a wizard someday who's specifically built to kill the party and has spells he normally wouldn't have just because they counter the players. He's smart. So, he thought this all out in advance despite having not met the party before. He's a wizard that has all this forethought and preparation that the party would have no chance to out think.

And of course, the party gets TPK'ed because the DM wanted to make combat interesting.

You're probably not that kind of DM. Most people aren't, but that is how people start doing stuff like that, and it's an incredibly dangerous thought process.

In short, your monsters shouldn't have access to knowledge that YOU AS a DM have. They are not your own personal player characters for you to play. They are obstacles with basic tactics that are prone to SLIGHT modulation. Knowledge of the intricacies of the system and insights into the player's tactics aren't things the average encounter should know without some kind of research on the party, and that's BBEG territory there.

I have no problem with "The troll jumps over the front-line fighter, taking an AoO, to hit the guy that just burned him with fire."

But that should be the limit of a troll's tactics. He's got a 6 int. He's got a below average deductive reasoning and 6 seconds a round. Complex thinking with stages of deductive logic should not be in his capability. He shouldn't be thinking "How can I minimize AoO?" He should be thinking "run forward and kill the man with fire."

As a DM, you're supposed to be the mediator between the system and the players, not the opposing team in a sport. If you treat it like that, you have WAY too big of an upper-hand.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 04:57 PM
How is justifying the use of the tumble skill by feinting RAI? RAW I can tumble though an enemy's square with a result of 25 or higher on my tumble check. The feinting thing is me justifying how RAW translates into game, since presumably my character does not just walk up to the DD and say "I beat the DC: 25 check, you now have to move aside now".

RAI was never relevant here.

Well, since the only reference to feinting is under bluff and feinting is one way you could get someone to move out of the way or sway in a way to give you space I would say that using a tumble check and then explaining it as done by a feint that you are using a rule as intended (i.e. making space for you to tumble through) rather then as the rule as written which effectively ignores any requirements such as a clear space to move through.

Given that feinting is normally a special opposed check in combat but that you in this case only have a fixed target number to beat instead.
Against a DD a feint would normally be a bit tougher I think since it is BAB+Sense Motive+D20 roll for him to counter you.
Which could make it more difficult then the difficulty 25 tumble check but is likely to be easier unless we are talking over a character of over 15 levels.

Honestly, I prefer people who actually come up with a nice justification for their result in tumbling so I do think your tumbling feint sounds a lot better then the simple tumble roll, I get through :).

Starbuck_II
2009-11-02, 04:59 PM
He knows to attack the guy with a staff/no weapon and no armor because he's probably the wizard, and wizard's shoot fireballs.

Which is why I always buy +1 Mithral Twilight Chain shirts so I'm wearing armor when I'm a wizard.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-02, 05:03 PM
Honestly, I prefer people who actually come up with a nice justification for their result in tumbling so I do think your tumbling feint sounds a lot better then the simple tumble roll, I get through :).

Simply tumbling can get you through a lot of places. Jackie Chan tumbled through the rungs of a ladder in First Strike, and through that hinged flap at the back of a shopping cart in Rumble in the Bronx, for example.

Boci
2009-11-02, 05:08 PM
Well, since the only reference to feinting is under bluff and feinting is one way you could get someone to move out of the way or sway in a way to give you space I would say that using a tumble check and then explaining it as done by a feint that you are using a rule as intended (i.e. making space for you to tumble through) rather then as the rule as written which effectively ignores any requirements such as a clear space to move through.

Given that feinting is normally a special opposed check in combat but that you in this case only have a fixed target number to beat instead.
Against a DD a feint would normally be a bit tougher I think since it is BAB+Sense Motive+D20 roll for him to counter you.
Which could make it more difficult then the difficulty 25 tumble check but is likely to be easier unless we are talking over a character of over 15 levels.

You're failing to distinguish between the D&D mechanical term of feinting and the concept of it. A rogue who is flanking a stab his opponent in the liver or caroted artery, neither choice affect the accuracy of the attack or the amount of damage it deals. Similarly, he could also feint and then stab and claim to gain SA as a result. He would not spend a standard action to feint, and he would be gaining SA from flanking, not from feinting.

Basically, as long as your described actions have no ingame effect, the DM should not have any problem with it.



Honestly, I prefer people who actually come up with a nice justification for their result in tumbling so I do think your tumbling feint sounds a lot better then the simple tumble roll, I get through :).

Thanks.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 05:08 PM
Yes he did, after a few tries :P.

Anyone seen Banlieu 13?

Some impressive tumbling in there.

Dairun Cates
2009-11-02, 05:10 PM
Which is why I always buy +1 Mithral Twilight Chain shirts so I'm wearing armor when I'm a wizard.

...And if the Troll is going to use that kind of logic, you should be rewarded for that kind of thinking. I love it when players come up with clever tactics. I reward them for it, and I don't use int as a measure to see if the monster can see through it. Because if it doesn't work the first time, they generally won't try it again.

It's all about consistency.

I think I'm arguing a different point than some people here.

I just don't think the average monster tactics should get too advanced unless you AND your players trust you to be incredibly unbiased about it and to not abuse your knowledge as a DM. You can argue a 6 int up to infinity if you're not careful.

It's hard enough to stay alive as a PC half the time. You don't need a monster out-thinking things he shouldn't even be aware of.

Monsters just shouldn't generally be seeing through Player's tactics. They're the PCs. They're the badasses. They're the heroes. The spotlight should be on them. Not the monster.

Super tactics should be saved for special encounters and PCs, and most monsters should have their tactics for the turn be limited to a simple sentence that can be said in a couple of seconds.

lesser_minion
2009-11-02, 05:11 PM
And the moment anyone comes out with Drow Kusari-gama I as a GM will slap them DOWN HARD, where did they learn to use those?
Of course if you are mixing and matching no-holds barred ALL melee PRC are useless and only Tippy-fied Wizards or their PRC's are not 'Worst'.

Drow being quite insular are not likely to suddenly have massed training in a HUMAN weapon from a region that in most settings does not exist in the first.

Erm... Try Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Note that "what is this Japan of which you speak" also applies both ways. Why is the kusari-gama a 'human' weapon in the setting? Depending on how literal the drow ninjas are, it could actually be a quite reasonable choice. And if not allowed, we can just break out the spiked chains anyway.

Note that I haven't actually suggested anything particularly "no-holds barred". We are literally talking basic investment in one skill and one of two core PrCs. Possibly a wizard for the ethereal/summoned monster route.

The conclusion is quite clear: any elite defender of any military in the D&D world must be able to defend against supernatural threats. The dwarven defender PrC fails to do so. It portrays an experienced but not particularly elite member of a military, but that probably didn't take a PrC.


I think a lot of times people are ignoring completely the stated behaviour and culture of races or creatures in DnD and are ascribing what according to descriptions are professionals in tactics, strategy, supply-and-support organisational skills or massive levels of specific knowledge skills like either Arcane, Geography, Meteorology, etc...

How much logistical planning, mystical expertise, geological knowledge or meteorological understanding does it take to hire six ninjas (or equivalent) and an envoy (or equivalent)?

This is basic "let's be disruptive" plus a little bit of supernatural aid. The conclusion: The PrC in question does not portray the elite of a military particularly well.


Which incidently said races, creatures and so-on do not have as skills but the excuse is that given their Int should allow them to do so anyway...even if said Int is 3, 6 or 10...

Erm... Drow? Int 13, clearly above average by human standards, likely opponent of dwarves?

We've already demonstrated that this isn't really tactical expertise, this is being able to work out the biggest threat and get rid of it. Which is perfectly reasonable for a creature with Intelligence 6-7, as very specifically called out in the rules.

I also pointed out very clearly that an intelligence 6 creature wouldn't know what the biggest threat was until it was actually attacked - it almost certainly wouldn't have met enough guys wearing pointy hats and robes to realise that they are supposed to kill that guy first, and it might decide to go for the guy in heavy armour.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 05:13 PM
You're failing to distinguish between the D&D mechanical term of feinting and the concept of it. A rogue who is flanking a stab his opponent in the liver or caroted artery, neither choice affect the accuracy of the attack or the amount of damage it deals. Similarly, he could also feint and then stab and claim to gain SA as a result. He would not spend a standard action to feint, and he would be gaining SA from flanking, not from feinting.

Basically, as long as your described actions have no ingame effect, the DM should not have any problem with it.


Thanks.

Well, to be honest I would say that SA would be attacking something like the liver or caroted artery and flanking allows you to sneak attack unless the target is immune to SA that is.

So the description that you are attacking his liver while flanking him would be the reason your SA is added to your damage for that attack.
If you don't declare you are doing so but you are still flanking and adding SA I would not mind but the case you described I would add some extra xp for you as part of roleplaying nicely.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-11-02, 05:23 PM
Erm... Try Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Note that "what is this Japan of which you speak" also applies both ways. Why is the kusari-gama a 'human' weapon in the setting? Depending on how literal the drow ninjas are, it could actually be a quite reasonable choice. And if not allowed, we can just break out the spiked chains anyway.

Note that I haven't actually suggested anything particularly "no-holds barred". We are literally talking basic investment in one skill and one of two core PrCs. Possibly a wizard for the ethereal/summoned monster route.

The conclusion is quite clear: any elite defender of any military in the D&D world must be able to defend against supernatural threats. The dwarven defender PrC fails to do so. It portrays an experienced but not particularly elite member of a military, but that probably didn't take a PrC.



How much logistical planning, mystical expertise, geological knowledge or meteorological understanding does it take to hire six ninjas (or equivalent) and an envoy (or equivalent)?

This is basic "let's be disruptive" plus a little bit of supernatural aid. The conclusion: The PrC in question does not portray the elite of a military particularly well.



Erm... Drow? Int 13, clearly above average by human standards, likely opponent of dwarves?

We've already demonstrated that this isn't really tactical expertise, this is being able to work out the biggest threat and get rid of it. Which is perfectly reasonable for a creature with Intelligence 6-7, as very specifically called out in the rules.

I also pointed out very clearly that an intelligence 6 creature wouldn't know what the biggest threat was until it was actually attacked - it almost certainly wouldn't have met enough guys wearing pointy hats and robes to realise that they are supposed to kill that guy first, and it might decide to go for the guy in heavy armour.

Perhaps you should reread some of my later posts ;).

Drow or Duergar I can see do some of the tactics posted, the tactic of a troll walking around a melee guy to attack a wizard further down to avoid the aoo as several other people have pointed out would be a lot more the DM justifying his behaviour then what a troll would do.

There was a very simple straight line continuation of this tactic to go around the melee guy, avoiding aoo, kill the wizard (whether or not he is wearing a dress is moot since the troll never made any spot checks, sense motive checks or anything similar) before he does anything since he is the dangerous guy facing me because the troll won initiative.

And I was not refering to 'Japan', there are eastern settings in most campaign worlds.

Don't forget that in a lot of cases we were talking RAW rules, using certain knowledges therefore require the appropriate skills which most monsters do not have access to and as such they should not be able to use the knowledge they somehow seem to acquire.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-02, 05:27 PM
Description of a self-consistent troll's reaction to fire
Read this link, it's nice.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-02, 06:04 PM
Except I wasn't saying it was broken. I was saying that the Archmage set a very poor design precedent that shouldn't have existed past the DMG, but did anyway.

I am in effect saying that any class that can replace the standard wizard progression with little or no determent (like the Archmage) should not exist, and be banned from most games because of it.
Yes, you don't really lose anything for taking a level in archmage.

You DO, however, lose spell slots in exchange for what that level gives you. Reread the archmage ability descriptions. Notice anything to that effect?

UglyPanda
2009-11-02, 06:09 PM
I think the Loremaster set a worse precedent than Archmage. Look at how little you give up compared to Archmage. Even if you don't get as much back as the Archmage, Loremaster is still better than straight Wizard.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-02, 06:11 PM
Wow, I'd missed that. Yeah. Archmage is usually cited as one of the few good Wizard PrCs for precisely that reason - it actually does lose something for what it gains. 1-3 wasted feats (depending on whether or not your really wanted those Spell Foci; some schools do, others... don't), plus you have to trade spell slots for the abilities you gain? That's awesomely reasonable.

In fact, the true shame is that more PrC's didn't follow the precedent set by the Archmage. Losing caster levels hurts too much, so most PrCs that lose them are basically not worth considering (mechanically), but losing a few spell slots is a reasonable way to lose something meaningful without losing too much, in order to get abilities. Unfortunately, Archmage is the only PrC to do so.

Hmm... that might make an interesting project. Go through the spellcasting PrCs and start adding spell slot costs to abilities. Hmmm...

Loremaster... god, I hate that class's requirements. They're so... trivial for a Wizard, but so incredibly difficult for the Sorcerer. It's really not fair.

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 06:11 PM
I think the Loremaster set a worse precedent than Archmage. Look at how little you give up compared to Archmage. Even if you don't get as much back as the Archmage, Loremaster is still better than straight Wizard.Loremaster pretty much literally costs you nothing since you're likely to take the metamagic feats anyway and one of the secrets you can pick up is a bonus feat which replaces one you spent on skill focus to get in.

Gorbash
2009-11-02, 06:17 PM
Archmage requires three nearly useless feats, so it isn't entirely broken.

While I agree that Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is a completely useless feat, Spell Focuses are most certainly not. If I had the feats, I'd take Greate SF for Transmutation, too, because +2 to DCs sometimes makes a real difference whether your enemy will succeed or not. Not to mention that's one of only few ways to boost your spell save DCs.

They're not the best feats, sure, but they're hardly useless.


Loremaster pretty much literally costs you nothing since you're likely to take the metamagic feats anyway and one of the secrets you can pick up is a bonus feat which replaces one you spent on skill focus to get in.

Well, unless you're going the metamagic-focused wizard route, you're not likely to pick up three metamagic feats, that's kinda severe. My wizard doesn'y have any metamagic feats, and he's a staple batman, built by following Being God/Batman guides.

@Foryn & Deadmeat

PLEASE, either open a new discussion or continue your arguement over PM, you're seriously choking the topic.

deuxhero
2009-11-02, 07:00 PM
Well, as long as your average commoner doesn't actually want to hit anything, it's good for them. :smalltongue:

Wait, are you joking? Because a commoner already has bad BAB and is proficient with one simple weapon.

Gametime
2009-11-02, 07:00 PM
I'm going to throw in a vote for Cancer Mage and Tainted Scholar for both offering stupidly huge benefits to characters willing to sacrifice any semblance of societal functioning.

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 07:08 PM
Well, unless you're going the metamagic-focused wizard route, you're not likely to pick up three metamagic feats, that's kinda severe. My wizard doesn'y have any metamagic feats, and he's a staple batman, built by following Being God/Batman guides. You only need two additional feats, you get one of them by default at fifth level of wizard (unless you take spell mastery, but we're assuming you don't), making the sum cost to enter loremaster a whole feat spent on either item creation or metamagic, something pretty much every wizard will take at least one of. It's really a negligible cost to get in. This is, of course, assuming that you read Loremaster's pre-reqs as any combination of item creation or metamagic feats totalling 3 or more, which I do. If you don't, then it does require a slight amount of focus, but two item creation feats isn't really that bad either.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-02, 07:11 PM
While I agree that Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is a completely useless feat, Spell Focuses are most certainly not. If I had the feats, I'd take Greate SF for Transmutation, too, because +2 to DCs sometimes makes a real difference whether your enemy will succeed or not. Not to mention that's one of only few ways to boost your spell save DCs.

They're not the best feats, sure, but they're hardly useless.

Well, unless you're going the metamagic-focused wizard route, you're not likely to pick up three metamagic feats, that's kinda severe. My wizard doesn'y have any metamagic feats, and he's a staple batman, built by following Being God/Batman guides.
I think the number of Wizards who want 3 metamagic or item creation feats anyway probably outnumbers the Wizards who want two different Spell Foci anyway. Just guessing. I mean, Quicken Spell is pretty much always awesome, not a lot of reason not to have that. You already have Scribe Scroll for free, unless you ACF'd it away. I'd say it's pretty trivial to find one item creation (Craft Wondrous Item) or metamagic feat (Extend? Empower? Chain? Split Ray?) that your Wizard would want, even if Loremaster didn't exist.

But Spell Focus depends on using a lot of spells with saving throws (Conjurers often don't, Abjurers often don't, etc), from two different schools. It depends heavily on your favored schools whether or not that's inherently desirable. For some Wizards, absolutely. For others... those feats are kind of wasted. Plus you've got Skill Focus (Spellcraft), which, unlike the Loremaster's Skill Focus (Knowledge), is not going to be offset by a free bonus feat for being an Archmage.

Korivan
2009-11-02, 07:14 PM
Green. Star. Adept.

-X

Bleh...seconded...terrible as written...needs more fixes then the Dragon Disciple. Dwarven Defender is pretty bad too.

ZeroNumerous
2009-11-02, 07:20 PM
... willing to sacrifice any semblance of societal functioning.

To the first: Polymorph/illusions stop you from looking sickly and disgusting. To the second: Mindrape the crazy away! :smallamused:

There's really no sacrifice to being a Cancer Mage or Tainted Scholar. Which is why I agree with you that they are one of the worst PrCs available.

Gorbash
2009-11-02, 07:30 PM
Plus you've got Skill Focus (Spellcraft), which, unlike the Loremaster's Skill Focus (Knowledge), is not going to be offset by a free bonus feat for being an Archmage.

True, but Archmage gives better benefits than Loremaster. And good point for Scribe Scroll, never thought of counting it as a prerequsite.


But Spell Focus depends on using a lot of spells with saving throws (Conjurers often don't, Abjurers often don't, etc), from two different schools.

That's why you don't take Spell Focus (Abjuration). You take it for schools which depend on failing saving throws - Transmutation, Conjuration (half the school relies on saves - grease, web, glitterdust, stinking cloud etc), Illusion.

And you do agree that Transmuters, Conjurers, Illusionists are more popular than Abjurers, don't you? :smallwink:

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 07:37 PM
True, but Archmage gives better benefits than Loremaster. And good point for Scribe Scroll, never thought of counting it as a prerequsite.The main point was that Loremaster requires minimal deviation from a cookiecutter wizard (skill focus feat), in order to enter the prestige class, whereas Archmage takes some actual dedication, not a comparison of which is a "stronger" PrC

Akal Saris
2009-11-02, 07:45 PM
It's not the worst PrC ever, but Tome of Magic's Disciple of the Word made me laugh pretty hard. Who ever thought that a truenamer/monk multiclass was a good idea for an even remotely playable character?

Though with Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu genius, it is still better than going straight monk (especially if you can somehow make the DC 50 truespeak check for the 10th level ability, giving you a pseudo-pounce). Without 1 of those 2 feats, all you've accomplished is making your monk int-dependent as well, and found a new source of ways to waste stunning blow attempts on failed truespeak checks.

lesser_minion
2009-11-02, 08:19 PM
Perhaps you should reread some of my later posts ;).

Drow or Duergar I can see do some of the tactics posted, the tactic of a troll walking around a melee guy to attack a wizard further down to avoid the aoo as several other people have pointed out would be a lot more the DM justifying his behaviour then what a troll would do.

Don't forget that in a lot of cases we were talking RAW rules, using certain knowledges therefore require the appropriate skills which most monsters do not have access to and as such they should not be able to use the knowledge they somehow seem to acquire.

We can assume that the troll can see that one character is wearing a robe and a pointy hat and another character is wearing full plate.

However, casters should probably be rare enough that in Int 6 troll won't peg the pointy-hat guy as a caster or even a threat, while it might remember being hurt by guys in full plate.

I'm agreeing that the troll shouldn't run right around the plate mail guy (assuming that it doesn't see any obvious fire wielders).

Gorbash
2009-11-02, 09:00 PM
The main point was that Loremaster requires minimal deviation from a cookiecutter wizard (skill focus feat), in order to enter the prestige class, whereas Archmage takes some actual dedication, not a comparison of which is a "stronger" PrC

Well, my opinion is that the same applies for Archmage, since a cookie cutter Wizard would take at least Spell Focus in his prefered school. And it's debatable whether cookiecutter wizards would take that many metamagic feats, but I do agree that deviation is another Spell Focus feat. If you could choose between Spell Focuses in 2 schools or SF and GSF in one school that would be sooooo much better, and that's my only beef with prerequsites for Archmage. But even that is a small price to pay for the ability to trade 5th and 9th lvl slot for two 9th lvl slots.

Optimystik
2009-11-02, 09:00 PM
I'll say True Necromancer since it fails so completely at what it's trying to accomplish.

But it still advances both sides, so Geomancer is strictly worse.

tonberrian
2009-11-02, 09:04 PM
But it still advances both sides, so Geomancer is strictly worse.

Ah, but Geomancer 10 can still reach 9th level spells. True Necromancer 14 cannot without shenanigans.

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 09:04 PM
Well, my opinion is that the same applies for Archmage, since a cookie cutter Wizard would take at least Spell Focus in his prefered school. And it's debatable whether cookiecutter wizards would take that many metamagic feats, but I do agree that deviation is another Spell Focus feat. If you could choose between Spell Focuses in 2 schools or SF and GSF in one school that would be sooooo much better, and that's my only beef with prerequsites for Archmage. But even that is a small price to pay for the ability to trade 5th and 9th lvl slot for two 9th lvl slots.Your average cookie cutter wizard will take at least one other metamagic or item creation feat beyond the one at fifth level. Thus they qualify for Loremaster simply by taking a skill focus feat, which, depending on int modifier, they may immediately make up at level 1 of Loremaster, if not level 3.

Optimystik
2009-11-02, 09:07 PM
Ah, but Geomancer 10 can still reach 9th level spells. True Necromancer cannot.

Sure it can, just enter with Ur-Priest.

Milskidasith
2009-11-02, 09:07 PM
Except I wasn't saying it was broken. I was saying that the Archmage set a very poor design precedent that shouldn't have existed past the DMG, but did anyway.

I am in effect saying that any class that can replace the standard wizard progression with little or no determent (like the Archmage) should not exist, and be banned from most games because of it.

The wizard has to give up three feat slots; that's something.

Draken
2009-11-02, 09:11 PM
Player's Guide to Faerun. Page 188. Yathrinshe.

Prerequisites:
1. Needs to be drow.
2. Needs to be female.
3. Needs to do nasty stuff with corpses (Lichloved).
4. Needs to be able to cast Animate Dead as a divine spell and Spectral Hand as an arcane spell.

Results:
10 levels

Bad BAB
6/10 Divine Spellcasting.
6/10 Arcane Spellcasting.
The ability to add your (stunted) caster levels together for arcane spells.
Continued Rebuke Undead (which was still reduced by your wizard/sorcerer multiclass, probably).
The power to sing people into sadness for a penalty to their attack rolls. Once per day. For three rounds, tops.
Death Ward.
Any creature you kill automaticaly becomes a zombie under your control.
Wail of the Banshee as a Su ability once per day. No limit of creatures.


Top that!

Gorbash
2009-11-02, 09:14 PM
Your average cookie cutter wizard will take at least one other metamagic or item creation feat beyond the one at fifth level.

Then we agree to disagree, I guess. :smallamused: I'd take Alacritous Cogitation as a bonus Wizard feat always. Or Toughening Transmutation/Cloudy Conjuration/that line of feats and pick up only Quicken around lvl 12 or 15 if I'm not going metamagic focused route, and that's cookie cutter wizard, IMHO.

Berserk Monk
2009-11-02, 09:17 PM
Swanmay isn't too bad. 9/10 casting, good BAB, become fey and gain DR 10/cold iron as a capstone.

What book is it in?

Kylarra
2009-11-02, 09:19 PM
What book is it in?
BoED :smalltongue:

DragoonWraith
2009-11-02, 09:20 PM
True, but Archmage gives better benefits than Loremaster.
Oh, definitely. But we're talking about the costs, not the net effect, or at least I was.


And good point for Scribe Scroll, never thought of counting it as a prerequsite.
Oh yeah. Back to what I said about how the class is trivial for Wizards but murderous on Sorcerers. So unfair.


That's why you don't take Spell Focus (Abjuration). You take it for schools which depend on failing saving throws - Transmutation, Conjuration (half the school relies on saves - grease, web, glitterdust, stinking cloud etc), Illusion.

And you do agree that Transmuters, Conjurers, Illusionists are more popular than Abjurers, don't you? :smallwink:
Of course. But there is a subset of Wizards for whom Spell Focus, or at least a second Spell Focus, is wasted (or at least not their top choice for that feat slot). It's really hard to imagine a Wizard for whom a second item creation or metamagic feat is wasted like that, though.

Like, I think more Wizard 20's would qualify for Loremaster than Archmage (ignoring the Skill Focus requirements of both for now), even though the vast majority are going to qualify for both.

tonberrian
2009-11-02, 09:34 PM
Player's Guide to Faerun. Page 188. Yathrinshe.

Prerequisites:
1. Needs to be drow.
2. Needs to be female.
3. Needs to do nasty stuff with corpses (Lichloved).
4. Needs to be able to cast Animate Dead as a divine spell and Spectral Hand as an arcane spell.

Results:
10 levels

Bad BAB
6/10 Divine Spellcasting.
6/10 Arcane Spellcasting.
The ability to add your (stunted) caster levels together for arcane spells.
Continued Rebuke Undead (which was still reduced by your wizard/sorcerer multiclass, probably).
The power to sing people into sadness for a penalty to their attack rolls. Once per day. For three rounds, tops.
Death Ward.
Any creature you kill automaticaly becomes a zombie under your control.
Wail of the Banshee as a Su ability once per day. No limit of creatures.


Top that!

Underdark. Page 33. Drow Judicator.
Prerequesites:
Evil Drow
Bab +5
Intimidate, Know(Religion) 4 ranks
Combat Reflexes
Lolth's Meat (Situational +1, maybe +2 to Attack, Damage, and Saves, needs to kill something Int 3+)
Level 1 spells

You get:

Good BaB
3/10 spellcasting
1/day 2d6 Con damage on successful hit, Fort for half
Rebuke Spiders
+3 to saves
A spider servant to share spells with, had you spells to share
Not-a-smite 3/day (functionally similar, but worse (no bonus to attack rolls) and no benefits from anything that helps smites)
Spiderwalking, poisonous bite (1d6 Str/1d6 Str, DC 18 + Con), +4 to hide/move silently 10 minutes 1/day
Targetted Horrid Wilting 1/day (you choose who gets hit)


Wail of the Banshee beats Horrid Wilting, better spellcasting beats the rest.

Optimystik
2009-11-02, 09:36 PM
Wow, Drow really get the shaft PrC-wise. No wonder they're all so emo.

Draken
2009-11-02, 09:49 PM
I think the Yathrinshee is worse. The prestige class is obviously meant to be a dual advancement spellcaster. Unfortunately, it does no such thing.

Heck, their ability to add caster levels for necromancy spells only barely gives any help to their otheriwse completely stunted spellcasting (The intended 20 level build will be LA 2/Cleric 5/Wizard3/Yath 10. For a CL of... 11+9. 20. With lesser drow t actualy goes up to 22)

The Judicator is obviously a melee with some lousy excuse for spellcasting Tacked in. Paladin of Tyranny/Slaugther 5 qualifies after taking the feats. Blackguard 1 on some full BAB class qualifies as well.

You can probably still make a Decent melee with Judicator. The only thing the Yathrinshee will kill and raise as a zombie is your spellcasting, probably.

Optimystik
2009-11-02, 09:54 PM
The only thing the Yathrinshee will kill and raise as a zombie is your spellcasting, probably.

ba-dum-tish

NoldorForce
2009-11-02, 10:03 PM
I'm sorry?

That doesn't deserve to be on - or anywhere near - the worst PrC ever list. Ya know why?

It lets you rebuke hippos.




...plus, you can just strap a Decanter of Endless Water to your belt and argue endlessly with your DM over the definition of "river".I was answering someone else's comment of "what's this PrC?" based on the description. I'd agree that it's not the worst PrC out there, but it's still mediocre at best.

ranagrande
2009-11-02, 10:03 PM
I would say that the worst PrC is the Epic Mystic Theurge.

It gets the smallest hit die, the fewest skill points, the slowest bonus feat progression of any class, and no additional features. It also alternates caster level increases instead of raising both as the Mystic Theurge does from level 1 to 10.

Taking anything else that grants casting, or even taking alternating levels of your original casting classes is a big increase over the Epic Mystic Theurge.

tonberrian
2009-11-02, 10:07 PM
Sadly, I feel that the Yathrinshee's superior not-nearly-as-sucky spellcasting pushes it ahead - it, at least, has the option of level 7 spells. Also, Divine Power sets BaB to character level. If nothing else, it can match the Judicator at melee with Divine Metamagic - Quicken, and still be more usefull to the party with Knock, Find Traps, and healing.

Grumman
2009-11-02, 10:08 PM
Wow, Drow really get the shaft PrC-wise. No wonder they're all so emo.
I like Cavestalker and Dread Fang of Lolth better. The first is hilarious for Thri-Kreen (quad-wielded spiked/scorpion chains) while the second is the core of my Murderer build.

DragoonWraith
2009-11-02, 10:25 PM
I would say that the worst PrC is the Epic Mystic Theurge.

It gets the smallest hit die, the fewest skill points, the slowest bonus feat progression of any class, and no additional features. It also alternates caster level increases instead of raising both as the Mystic Theurge does from level 1 to 10.

Taking anything else that grants casting, or even taking alternating levels of your original casting classes is a big increase over the Epic Mystic Theurge.
I... have to agree, this is pretty poor.

Mongoose87
2009-11-02, 10:29 PM
Underdark. Page 33. Drow Judicator.
Prerequesites:
Evil Drow
Bab +5
Intimidate, Know(Religion) 4 ranks
Combat Reflexes
Lolth's Meat (Situational +1, maybe +2 to Attack, Damage, and Saves, needs to kill something Int 3+)
Level 1 spells

You get:

Good BaB
3/10 spellcasting
1/day 2d6 Con damage on successful hit, Fort for half
Rebuke Spiders
+3 to saves
A spider servant to share spells with, had you spells to share
Not-a-smite 3/day (functionally similar, but worse (no bonus to attack rolls) and no benefits from anything that helps smites)
Spiderwalking, poisonous bite (1d6 Str/1d6 Str, DC 18 + Con), +4 to hide/move silently 10 minutes 1/day
Targetted Horrid Wilting 1/day (you choose who gets hit)


Wail of the Banshee beats Horrid Wilting, better spellcasting beats the rest.

3/10!? I mean, you really shouldn't be a spellcaster as a drow, but surely this is a mistake!

tonberrian
2009-11-02, 10:31 PM
No, it's 3/10. As it's been said, Judicator is mostly a melee class with slightly more than non-existant spellcasting.

Draken
2009-11-02, 10:45 PM
Sadly, I feel that the Yathrinshee's superior not-nearly-as-sucky spellcasting pushes it ahead - it, at least, has the option of level 7 spells. Also, Divine Power sets BaB to character level. If nothing else, it can match the Judicator at melee with Divine Metamagic - Quicken, and still be more usefull to the party with Knock, Find Traps, and healing.

While I agree on the fact that 7° level spells beats... Well, caster level 4 I suppose. It should be noted that Divine Power is an evocation spell an as such, does not benefit from the improved Caster level of the Yathrinshee. You are casting it at caster level 11. 15 with Practiced spellcaster. 13 or 17 with lesser drow (it also has a d4 for HD btw).

But ultimately, the Yathrinshee fails more epicaly than even the True Necromancer at being a necromancer, it's intended role. And perhaps even more as a dual-advancement spellcaster than any other such class.

Meanwhile, the Drow Judicator can, probably, be used for something as a melee damage dealer (not a tank because of d8 HD).

Yes, spells beat... Less spells. But ultimately, the Yathrinshee is the single worst dual advancer out of a widely considered poor niche, that of dual advancement. It is quite likely that not even Ur-Priest cheese can save it (to say the truth it can't, to be a Yathrinshee you also have to worship Kiaransalee, which blocks Ur-Priest out). While the Drow Judicator, with its 3/10 spellcasting, only asks for a token spellcasting to qualify (1° level arcane or divine), and is, ultimately, a melee damage dealing PrC.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-02, 10:48 PM
While I agree on the fact that 7° level spells beats... Well, caster level 4 I suppose. It should be noted that Divine Power is an evocation spell an as such, does not benefit from the improved Caster level of the Yathrinshee. You are casting it at caster level 11. 15 with Practiced spellcaster. 13 or 17 with lesser drow (it also has a d4 for HD btw).


Bah, Divine power cares about caster for Duration and temp hps only.
BAB = Character level. Who needs more than 10 rds of DP? Most battles don't last longer than 10.

Draken
2009-11-02, 10:51 PM
Wow. That is right. I always assumed Divine Power made your BAB equal to your caster level.

Well, the HP still sucks I suppose.

Killer Angel
2009-11-03, 03:47 AM
Originally Posted by Killer Angel
Description of a self-consistent troll's reaction to fire

Read this link, it's nice.

With pleasure, if only there was the link... :smallbiggrin:

Boci
2009-11-03, 09:47 AM
I like Cavestalker and Dread Fang of Lolth better. The first is hilarious for Thri-Kreen (quad-wielded spiked/scorpion chains) while the second is the core of my Murderer build.

Cave stalker is fun and the Dread Fang has potential, if you could just persuade your DM to give it SA and/or make it into a level 5 entry PrC.

Starbuck_II
2009-11-03, 10:09 AM
Wow. That is right. I always assumed Divine Power made your BAB equal to your caster level.

Well, the HP still sucks I suppose.

In some ways, it is better for all involved that it isn't caster level. It is possible to have higher caster than level after about level 10. Beads of Karma, etc.

You don't want clerics to have 30 BAB by 20 do ya? Not epic bab, but real BAB. So keeping it character level is best.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-03, 10:44 AM
We can assume that the troll can see that one character is wearing a robe and a pointy hat and another character is wearing full plate.

All my casters dress like monks.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-03, 11:06 AM
It is quite likely that not even Ur-Priest cheese can save it (to say the truth it can't, to be a Yathrinshee you also have to worship Kiaransalee, which blocks Ur-Priest out).

Fun fact: Atheism is not a requirement for being an Ur-Priest. Worshipping a god might make it difficult to find an Ur-Priest to train from, but as you can convert to Kiaransaleeism after becoming an Ur-Priest, the progression is plausible.

@Killer Angel: You got a quote in a quote? Interesting...
:smallbiggrin:

Killer Angel
2009-11-03, 11:31 AM
@Killer Angel: You got a quote in a quote? Interesting...
:smallbiggrin:

I've done it manually.

That said, I sense that something is escaping me.
What is the link you were refering to? Unless it's a joke i'm not catching... :smallredface:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-03, 11:35 AM
It's the green-bordered white arrow in the quote tag. Your manual quote didn't catch it.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-03, 11:47 AM
I've done it manually.

That said, I sense that something is escaping me.
What is the link you were refering to? Unless it's a joke i'm not catching... :smallredface:

Internet meme.

Yo dawg, I heard you like responses, so I put a quote in your quote so you can read while you read.

Killer Angel
2009-11-03, 11:57 AM
It's the green-bordered white arrow in the quote tag. Your manual quote didn't catch it.

YES! I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT! :smallsmile:

tnx

Edit: relevant link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.0) for the discussion? It's interesting to see that in the lower positions (down 2 or more tiers), there is the PrC Cavestalker (Druid entry).
Let's nerf the druid!

(that said, i don't agree with some of them, as the Spellguard of Silverymoon in -1 tier :smallyuk:)

Inhuman Bot
2009-11-03, 02:07 PM
Just one thing on the troll argument..

A papercut probably won't kill me, but it'll hurt.

Getting cut with an axe probably won't kill a troll, but it'd hurt.

Tam_OConnor
2009-11-03, 02:14 PM
I've got to just generally direct anger at most of the archery focused prestige classes, especially early on. Arcane Archer, Order of the Bow Initiate (CWar), Peerless Archer (Silver Marches)...nothing really had inspiring abilities or fluff. The really tragic thing is that the Master Thrower likewise had minimal fluff, and managed to have a variety of interesting abilities (Opposing argument: Exotic Weapon Master).

I'm also upset at how the Drunken Master is just so... disappointing. I really want to like it, but it would be a chore to optimize.

(@Killer Angel: I did most of the Faerun ones, at least on this board. Spellguard got marked down because of the obligatory service requirement. I have no doubt that a good DM could work it in, but in a vacuum, it just ain't too good).

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 02:22 PM
Well sure, except it's a melee PrC with BaB like a wizard. Good luck trying to hit anything.

You don't need BAB when your "potential damage" is around 200. That 3rd level ability is sick.

Inhuman Bot
2009-11-03, 02:25 PM
You don't need BAB when your "potential damage" is around 200. That 3rd level ability is sick.

What? It doesn't matter if your damage is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!! if nothing ever takes that 9k damage.

Sinfire Titan
2009-11-03, 02:29 PM
You don't need BAB when your "potential damage" is around 200. That 3rd level ability is sick.

You're wrong. Unless you have a way to make your attack roll irrelevant (Wraithstrike, True Strike) or can guarantee the attack roll is a Nat 20, then your attack bonus means just as much as the damage bonus.

Myrmex
2009-11-03, 02:35 PM
Fattening the herd? :smalltongue:
Seriously, it's almost as bad as the Forsaker from Masters of the Wild (3.0)
You can never use, or accept a spell. Ever. You are on your last HP, and the party cleric wants to use cure wounds? Refuse. If he forces, you need to roll a save to avoid it, as ALL magic is evil.
No magic itens too. No useful things like weapons or armors. You do gain some bonuses to stats (total of +10 to spread on your stats), and the ability to gain bonuses to your attacks and AC as if you were using magic weapons, and even a (lousy) spell resistance.... but get this. If you don't destroy a certain percentage of magic itens every year, your bonus to attack/defense, and SR fades! Yeah, you successfully cleaned your land of these pesky casters and their magic itens... a week later you face a beast that have damage reduction 10/magic, and maybe regeneration. You are screwed.

In an average game, the Forsaker is awful. In a no, or low magic game, though, it's not bad. Also, it just gets 1/2 healing from cure spells, sorta like a warforged.

Forsaker also gets a level 1 entry (with flaws). Ranger 1/Forsaker6/Foe Hunter 4 gets SR 30 (vs. favored enemy: arcane casters). 'Course, that means you can never get healed with magic. Oh well. You're also level 11 and can't teleport or fly. But assuming that those aren't a big deal in a no casters game, you're not doing so bad.

Also note that Forsaker doesn't have to forsake psionics, psi-like abilities, psionic items, or supernatural abilities. I could see it getting some use in gestalt. It can also make a really great class to put on monsters.


How about that scarred/dark warrior something from Book of Vile Darkness?
Gain stuff that you could gain anyway with some cheap magic itens. A straight fighter 20 is better than a fighter 10/dark warrior 10 with same WBL.

Warrior of Darkness? If you're playing with super high point buy, and have a ton of charisma, you can get a pounce-like ability with a 2 level dip. I think it may have a /day limit, though.

BoVD is full of awful prestige classes, like all the 3/10 caster progression ones.