A question about Wish [3.5]

[dragonfan6490]

Howdy Fellow Playgrounder!

So I've been playing D&D for about 6 years now, but have never really messed with the Wish Spell.

According to the SRD, wish can:

Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

So my question is: Would the 2nd ability have the same GP limit of the nonmagical item?

[Lamech]

No not at all. The gp limit only applies to non-magical toys. But you have that double XP cost thing to worry about for magical items. So unless you happen across a Ring of Three wishes, or manage to steal a wish from an outsider... (Pro-tip: Harder then it seems.) its not actually all that good.

[Milskidasith]

No not at all. The gp limit only applies to non-magical toys. But you have that double XP cost thing to worry about for magical items. So unless you happen across a Ring of Three wishes, or manage to steal a wish from an outsider... (Pro-tip: Harder then it seems.) its not actually all that good.

Pro-tip: Gate + mindrape = free wishes. Not hard, but not good, or advisable with a real DM.

[Claudius Maximus]

I seem to remember a long flame war over whether or not a Wish SLA can make an infinitely valuable magic item, since there are no xp components for SLAs.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I seem to remember a long flame war over whether or not a Wish SLA can make an infinitely valuable magic item, since there are no xp components for SLAs.RAW it can. RAI, RAB, and RAASDMWA, not a shot in the Abyss.

[Heliomance]

I'm guessing the last acronym is Rules As Any Sane Dungeon Master Would Allow, but RAB escapes me.

[Douglas]

RAW it can. RAI, RAB, and RAASDMWA, not a shot in the Abyss.
Let's see, that's Rules As Written, Rules As Balanced, and Rules As Any Sane Dungeon Master Would Allow, right?

[Clementx]

The limits for creating or improving magic items are hidden in the last paragraph- XP Cost. You can make whatever you want, but you pay 8% of its price in XP, on top of your 5000XP for the wish.

[lsfreak]

The limits for creating or improving magic items are hidden in the last paragraph- XP Cost. You can make whatever you want, but you pay 8% of its price in XP, on top of your 5000XP for the wish.

Right, so you gate in a solar and then have him use his XP-free wish and get a +200 sword.

[hamishspence]

When players get Wish as a spell-like ability through Archmage High Arcana, it does not come XP-free.

It may not be RAW, but I think solars probably do in fact (in the context of the setting) have a cap on what they can wish for- and highly expensive items can break the cap.

For comparison, according to Deities and Demigods- a god is assumed to be able to spend no more than 30000 XP at once, on miracles, wishes, etc, before they can stop spending in that particular encounter.

Ruling that this sort of cap applies to Solars on Wishes, might reduce the Wishing for Very Pricey Items.

[jiriku]

No, there's no cap on the GP value of a magic item. Yes, the XP cost sucks. As mentioned, most creatures that access wish through a spell-like ability don't have to pay the XP cost. Messing with solars is not required; you can use the sixth-level spell planar binding to call and bind an efreeti or a noble djinn. Either can be persuaded to grant you three wishes (use moment of prescience and eagle's splendor to ensure you win the opposed Charisma check to convince it to provide wishes).

Used conservatively, this will net you some extra power. Used liberally, this will surely trigger an undesirable response from your DM. A tactic I commonly use both to nerf the effectiveness of the three wishes and to make it more difficult for the DM to have an in-game reason to smite me is to use the third wish to make the djinn/efreeti forget that I ever forced it to grant me wishes, and instead believe that it outsmarted me and escaped without having to perform any service.

[bosssmiley]

Wishes fixed (not RAW, but RAMS):

No Wishing for More Wishes!
The 3.5 wish spell is very explicit in what it can do, and extremely vague about what it can't do. It has a big list of things it is capable of, and then tells the DM to ad hoc things if anyone wishes for anything that isn't on that list. Unfortunately, wishing for a Staff of 50 wishes is on the list of things you can wish for. The XP cost is considerable (512,180 XP), but if you get your wishes from a magic item (like a Staff of 50 Wishes) or a spell-like ability (like an Efreet), you don't have to pay that XP cost, so the fact that it is stupidly large doesn't even matter. Needless to say, the game completely breaks down as soon as that happens. So in that spirit, we suggest an alternate list of things wish can do, coupled with some things wish actually can't do:

* Free Wishes – the following wishes have no XP cost:
–- Wealth: A character can wish for mundane wealth whose total value is 25,000 gp or less.
–- Magic Item: A character can wish for a magic item that costs 15,000 gp or less.
–- Power: A character can wish to increase an inherent bonus to any attribute by 1 (to a maximum of +5)
-– Spell: A character can wish for the effects of any spell that lacks an XP cost that is lower level than the highest level spell in its spell list (a wizard spell of 8th level or less, or a paladin spell of 3rd level or less, for example).
–- Transport: A character can wish herself and 1 other willing creature per caster level to any location on any plane.

* Wishes that aren't Free – the following wishes cost XP or gp or both:
–- Add to the Powers of a Magic Item: A character can increase the powers of a magic item to anything she could enhance it to with her own item creation feats. This requires 1 XP for every 10 gp increase in magic item value.
–- Raise the Dead: A character can bring the dead back to "life", even if they were an undead, construct, or other creature that cannot normally be brought back to life. This may even be able to bring back a creature who has been devoured by a Barghest (50% chance of success). This costs 3,000 XP, which can be paid in any combination by the caster or the target. The spent XP for this wish can reduce a character's level, but coming back to life in this manner otherwise won't do so.
–- Undo Misfortune: A character can wish back the sands of time in order to force events of the last round to be replayed. Time can be reset to any point back to the character's previous initiative pass. This use costs 1000 XP. While the action spent to cast wish in this case is restored, the character still loses the spell slot and XP used to power it.
–- Turn Back Time: A poorly fated adventure can be averted entirely with a wish. The character expends the slot and pays 5,000 xp, and none of it ever happened.

* Wishes that are Rituals – some wishes have much greater costs, at the whim of the DM. Here is an example:
-– Become a new Creature: A character can wish themselves into being a new creature. This must be done when a character is eligible to gain a new level, and the character makes the wish and takes a level of the new racial class (or racial paragon class) and is now the new race.

Any use of wish causes the wisher to become fatigued (and yes, there are ways to get around that).

Creatures with spell-like abilities that grant wishes may only grant wishes that have no XP cost. So an Efreet can give you as many +2 swords as it wants, but an Efreet can't give in to your request to have a +3 sword. Also, you'll notice that we categorize the inherent bonuses as something that's free and therefore going to be rapidly available to all the player characters somewhere between 11th and 15th levels. That's because we seriously believe that it is more balanced for characters to all gain +5 inherent bonuses than it is for some characters to figure out how to manipulate XP gains and thought bottles to get inherent bonuses while the other players don't. Inherent bonuses need to be available or not available to everyone or they break the game.

Magic items with wish on them can be used to cast wishes with an XP cost of at most 5,000 XP, and are produced as items using spells with a cost of 5,000 XP. As a result, you can't wish for an item that has wish on it.

Brought to you by The Gaming Den (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828).

[Johel]

Wishes fixed (not RAW, but RAMS):

No Wishing for More Wishes!
The 3.5 wish spell is very explicit in what it can do, and extremely vague about what it can't do. It has a big list of things it is capable of, and then tells the DM to ad hoc things if anyone wishes for anything that isn't on that list. Unfortunately, wishing for a Staff of 50 wishes is on the list of things you can wish for. The XP cost is considerable (512,180 XP), but if you get your wishes from a magic item (like a Staff of 50 Wishes) or a spell-like ability (like an Efreet), you don't have to pay that XP cost, so the fact that it is stupidly large doesn't even matter. Needless to say, the game completely breaks down as soon as that happens. So in that spirit, we suggest an alternate list of things wish can do, coupled with some things wish actually can't do:

* Free Wishes – the following wishes have no XP cost:
–- Wealth: A character can wish for mundane wealth whose total value is 25,000 gp or less.
–- Magic Item: A character can wish for a magic item that costs 15,000 gp or less.
–- Power: A character can wish to increase an inherent bonus to any attribute by 1 (to a maximum of +5)
-– Spell: A character can wish for the effects of any spell that lacks an XP cost that is lower level than the highest level spell in its spell list (a wizard spell of 8th level or less, or a paladin spell of 3rd level or less, for example).
–- Transport: A character can wish herself and 1 other willing creature per caster level to any location on any plane.

* Wishes that aren't Free – the following wishes cost XP or gp or both:
–- Add to the Powers of a Magic Item: A character can increase the powers of a magic item to anything she could enhance it to with her own item creation feats. This requires 1 XP for every 10 gp increase in magic item value.
–- Raise the Dead: A character can bring the dead back to "life", even if they were an undead, construct, or other creature that cannot normally be brought back to life. This may even be able to bring back a creature who has been devoured by a Barghest (50% chance of success). This costs 3,000 XP, which can be paid in any combination by the caster or the target. The spent XP for this wish can reduce a character's level, but coming back to life in this manner otherwise won't do so.
–- Undo Misfortune: A character can wish back the sands of time in order to force events of the last round to be replayed. Time can be reset to any point back to the character's previous initiative pass. This use costs 1000 XP. While the action spent to cast wish in this case is restored, the character still loses the spell slot and XP used to power it.
–- Turn Back Time: A poorly fated adventure can be averted entirely with a wish. The character expends the slot and pays 5,000 xp, and none of it ever happened.

* Wishes that are Rituals – some wishes have much greater costs, at the whim of the DM. Here is an example:
-– Become a new Creature: A character can wish themselves into being a new creature. This must be done when a character is eligible to gain a new level, and the character makes the wish and takes a level of the new racial class (or racial paragon class) and is now the new race.

Any use of wish causes the wisher to become fatigued (and yes, there are ways to get around that).

Creatures with spell-like abilities that grant wishes may only grant wishes that have no XP cost. So an Efreet can give you as many +2 swords as it wants, but an Efreet can't give in to your request to have a +3 sword. Also, you'll notice that we categorize the inherent bonuses as something that's free and therefore going to be rapidly available to all the player characters somewhere between 11th and 15th levels. That's because we seriously believe that it is more balanced for characters to all gain +5 inherent bonuses than it is for some characters to figure out how to manipulate XP gains and thought bottles to get inherent bonuses while the other players don't. Inherent bonuses need to be available or not available to everyone or they break the game.

Magic items with wish on them can be used to cast wishes with an XP cost of at most 5,000 XP, and are produced as items using spells with a cost of 5,000 XP. As a result, you can't wish for an item that has wish on it.

Brought to you by The Gaming Den (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828).

Sounds good.
+1

EDIT : ...or not.
The 15.000 gp limit value for magic item can still be abused by wishing for scrolls.

Scroll of Simulacrum (for a 10HD copy) : 7.275 gp
That's enough to create a pseudo-Effrit.
Scroll of Gate : 8.825 gp
You can call a Solar with that.
Scroll of Simulacrum (for a 11HD copy) : 7.775 gp
That's enough to create a pseudo-Solar.

With his SLA wish, an Effrit can grant you any one of them.
And from there, you can start building an army of simulacrum for free.

Yet, it's already an improvement.

[Clementx]

You can fix the entirety of monster SLA abuse if you add that the creature will always demand compensation equal to the XP cost if it was a spell. So that Solar will cast wish for you, if you give it 5kXP, a 25kgp magic item, or just performed a quest of goodness without tangible reward, that should have gotten you that much from the wealth by level guidelines.

This is always considered extra, and no arrangement includes it. Gate and planar binding once again becomes a solution spells like all other conjurations, rather than a get-rich-quick scheme.

[jokey665]

You can fix the entirety of monster SLA abuse if you add that the creature will always demand compensation equal to the XP cost if it was a spell. So that Solar will cast wish for you, if you give it 5kXP, a 25kgp magic item, or just performed a quest of goodness without tangible reward, that should have gotten you that much from the wealth by level guidelines.

This is always considered extra, and no arrangement includes it. Gate and planar binding once again becomes a solution spells like all other conjurations, rather than a get-rich-quick scheme.

Gate + Mindrape still = free wishes, though, I would imagine.

[Lysander]

Gate + Mindrape still = free wishes, though, I would imagine.

People always assume that these creatures exist in a vacuum, where summoning one and enslaving it just won't be noticed. Here's how it really works:

Step 1: Summon Solar
Step 2: Mindrape Solar
Step 3: Several dozen angry Solars appear to teach you a lesson

[t_catt11]

People always assume that these creatures exist in a vacuum, where summoning one and enslaving it just won't be noticed. Here's how it really works:

Step 1: Summon Solar
Step 2: Mindrape Solar
Step 3: Several dozen angry Solars appear to teach you a lesson

+1 to this. Kills me how people act like there is no consequence to a character's actions.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I understand that when a creature uses a SLA based on a spell with an xp cost that they don't have to pay that xp, but is the xp consumed by the creation of a magic item actually part of the spell? or is it something the spell extracts to fuel its magic? As a dm I'd say that the xp cost from creating magic items is something separate from the xp cost of the spell. That's not to say that a player casting the spell would have to pay both, but it does stop some of the abuses.

[Optimystik]

People always assume that these creatures exist in a vacuum, where summoning one and enslaving it just won't be noticed. Here's how it really works:

Step 1: Summon Solar
Step 2: Mindrape Solar
Step 3: Several dozen angry Solars appear to teach you a lesson

Have your solar Miracle all their solars to sleep. Mindrape one and repeat. :smalltongue:

[Toliudar]

Yup. Nothing that gods like better than granting miracles that help incapacitate their own celestial servants.

[Optimystik]

Yup. Nothing that gods like better than granting miracles that help incapacitate their own celestial servants.

Just do it in Eberron then, where they don't care.

Alternatively, Wish.

[Lysander]

Have your solar Miracle all their solars to sleep. Mindrape one and repeat. :smalltongue:

There's one problem. Miracle is a request from the Solar's deity:


In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.

So no miracles to put the deity's other servants to sleep. They can still cast Wish once a day, but unless you can think of a single 8th level wizard spell that can knock out a legion of Solars you're still screwed.

It's also really really really hard to Mindrape a Solar. They have a protective aura (ecl 22) that includes a Protection from Evil effect which you'd have to dispel before casting Mindrape. Also, restoring that aura is a free action so you'd have to successfully dispel and mindrape before the solar has a chance to act.

[Lamech]

People always assume that these creatures exist in a vacuum, where summoning one and enslaving it just won't be noticed. Here's how it really works:

Step 1: Summon Solar
Step 2: Mindrape Solar
Step 3: Several dozen angry Solars appear to teach you a lesson

The Solar has 20th level casteriness and wish as a SLA. And is friends with gods. The solar kills about 20 weeks before you cast gate. Oops... it then replaces you with a ice assassin version of you thats been mind controlled and given 50% resistance to fire. (And mindrapes ice assassin you to forget about the whole getting killed and replaced.) Which then when you gate in the solar will simply control the new you. Again harder then it seems. But hey thanks for playing better luck next time.


With his SLA wish, an Effrit can grant you any one of them.Wish? I don't see a "wish" SLA on the Effrit list of ablities. I see this thing about granting wishes, but nothing like the actual wish spell... Hmm... I wonder how granting wishes works exactly; for example does it have a list of "safe" things that won't try to pervert your intent? I think we all know the answer. But hey thanks for playing, better luck next time.

[Lysander]

The Solar has 20th level casteriness and wish as a SLA. And is friends with gods. The solar kills about 20 weeks before you cast gate. Oops... it then replaces you with a ice assassin version of you thats been mind controlled and given 50% resistance to fire. (And mindrapes ice assassin you to forget about the whole getting killed and replaced.) Which then when you gate in the solar will simply control the new you. Again harder then it seems. But hey thanks for playing better luck next time.


Huh? I think we're in agreement that enslaving a Solar wouldn't work, although I'm not really sure I understand what you mean about the ice assassin. Good point that the Solar is friends with a deity though so even if you could find a way to defeat EVERY solar in the multiverse you'd still have a vengeful deity intervene with some heavy-duty smiting.

[Johel]

Wish? I don't see a "wish" SLA on the Effrit list of ablities. I see this thing about granting wishes, but nothing like the actual wish spell... Hmm... I wonder how granting wishes works exactly; for example does it have a list of "safe" things that won't try to pervert your intent? I think we all know the answer. But hey thanks for playing, better luck next time.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti
Here's the whole paragraph :

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—detect magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray (1 ray only); 3/day—invisibility, wall of fire (DC 16); 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Now, you can nickpick and say "it says he can grant you three wishes a day, it doesn't specifically say it is a SLA" but since it's in the SLA paragraph and since there's a special paragraph for another Supernatural ability that isn't an SLA, I guess we can safely assume that, yes, the wishes here are SLA.
As for them being different from the spell "Wish", that's a good question. Since there's no list, I guess we have to look at the "Wish" spell for references.

Now, sure, it can pervert your intent. But if you wish :
"-I want you to make a unused scroll of Simulacrum appear on this table and only a unused scroll of Simulacrum, which will respect the following conditions : The scroll will have enough power to create a copy of a creature at least as powerful yourself. Touching the scroll, looking at the scroll, reading the scroll, casting a spell from the scroll or having any interaction with the scroll won't cause me any harm. It will not be cursed or have other magical powers or spells beside those necessary to cast Simulacrum."
I think it's pretty safe, from that point.

[Optimystik]

So no miracles to put the deity's other servants to sleep.

I don't see why nonviolently pacifying a good deity's servants would be contrary to its alignment. Sleep effects aren't evil, last time I checked anyway.

But again, even if you rule out Miracle, there's still Wish.

(Please note I'm not seriously suggesting this should be tried in a game. It's merely a thought exercise.)

[Johel]

I don't see why nonviolently pacifying a good deity's servants would be contrary to its alignment. Sleep effects aren't evil, last time I checked anyway.

But again, even if you rule out Miracle, there's still Wish.

(Please note I'm not seriously suggesting this should be tried in a game. It's merely a thought exercise.)

Situation 1
You have a little brother or even a son.
He has this friend who's been tricked by shady people.
He want to help him out and go for the shady people.
But the friend throws a soporific grenade at him.
That's already something you won't be OK with.

Situation 2
Now, you own a shop of said grenades. The friend of your little brother enters your shop with the shady people. They are talking about buying grenades at a lower price from you and then use them against your little brother. Will you sell them a grenade, even if it's not lethal ?

If your answer is "no", then chances are the god won't grant the miracle.

[Optimystik]

Situation 2
Now, you own a shop of said grenades. The friend of your little brother enters your shop with the shady people. They are talking about buying grenades at a lower price from you and then use them against your little brother. Will you sell them a grenade, even if it's not lethal ?

If your answer is "no", then chances are the god won't grant the miracle.

In Eberron, it is a grenade vending machine, not a grenade shop.

[Johel]

In Eberron, it is a grenade vending machine, not a grenade shop.
...
Fair enough, I guess. :smallwink:

[Lysander]

I don't see why nonviolently pacifying a good deity's servants would be contrary to its alignment. Sleep effects aren't evil, last time I checked anyway.

But again, even if you rule out Miracle, there's still Wish.

(Please note I'm not seriously suggesting this should be tried in a game. It's merely a thought exercise.)

"In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused." Unless it's in a deity's nature to help enslave its own servants the request is refused. Remember, Miracle is merely a polite request. The god doesn't have to grant it if it's contrary to their interests. In fact, if a Solar became evil it might lose all cleric spell casting ability just like a cleric that goes against their alignment.

And yes, there's still Wish. But Wish is basically limited to casting a level 8 wizard spell when used as an offensive move. There is no level 8 spell that can knock out multiple solars at once. Especially considering that they come with Protection from Evil and can counterspell anything you or your solar slave does.

[Ormagoden]

In Eberron, it is a grenade vending machine, not a grenade shop.

At my table there are no grenade vending machines...

[Noble Savant]

Now, sure, it can pervert your intent. But if you wish :
"-I want you to make a unused scroll of Simulacrum appear on this table and only a unused scroll of Simulacrum, which will respect the following conditions : The scroll will have enough power to create a copy of a creature at least as powerful yourself. Touching the scroll, looking at the scroll, reading the scroll, casting a spell from the scroll or having any interaction with the scroll won't cause me any harm. It will not be cursed or have other magical powers or spells beside those necessary to cast Simulacrum."
I think it's pretty safe, from that point.

This is where the idea of partial fulfilment comes into play. It can choose to grant only part of your massive paragraph of wishing. And thus bad things are heaped upon thee.

[Roderick_BR]

Right, so you gate in a solar and then have him use his XP-free wish and get a +200 sword.
Unless the DM decides to be a jerk and argument that since SLA doesn't have XP costs, means they *can't* do things with XP costs. Make sense.

[Lamech]

Now, sure, it can pervert your intent. But if you wish :
"-I want you to make a unused scroll of Simulacrum appear on this table and only a unused scroll of Simulacrum, which will respect the following conditions : The scroll will have enough power to create a copy of a creature at least as powerful yourself. Touching the scroll, looking at the scroll, reading the scroll, casting a spell from the scroll or having any interaction with the scroll won't cause me any harm. It will not be cursed or have other magical powers or spells beside those necessary to cast Simulacrum."
I think it's pretty safe, from that point.
Totally right about being a SLA, I was just commenting on the fact there is no safe list. So umm... I wonder what percent of that scroll is composed of matter and what percent anti-matter. I also wonder of what the affects of having air particles and scroll particles in the same place will be. I also wonder how you will be able to interact with a scroll if I can't be used as an improvised weapon against you.

The last two arn't bad, maybe suck some HP damage from a small explosion, and have this random scroll to sell. The first... thats the potential for bad stuff. Of course thats just me being a jerk. (But it is a common trope with wishes.)

I would personally suggest making a simulcrum of a solar, could probably negiotiate for a wing feather, possibly gate one in if your planning on only good deads. If push comes to shove you can miracle a simulcrum up by mimicing the spell. That way you get the list of "safe" actions. Anyone see any flaws there?

[Johel]

I would personally suggest making a simulcrum of a solar, could probably negiotiate for a wing feather, possibly gate one in if your planning on only good deads. If push comes to shove you can miracle a simulcrum up by mimicing the spell. That way you get the list of "safe" actions. Anyone see any flaws there?

That was one of the original idea we discussed HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130249).

The reason why one would prefer to use Effrits is that, unlike Solar, you can trap them with Planar Binding really early, allowing for a wish-at-will as early as Level 11th.

I won't comment the anti-matter scroll.
It's a pure troll from you as it contradicts the whole part about "having any interaction with the scroll won't cause me any harm" from the wish and is therefor unlikely.
At worst, I can shove a scroll of Detect Magic in the face of the Effrit and ask the same wish as before, just with the precision that the scroll must be made of the same material as this one.
And the wish didn't say anything about me not being able to interact with the scroll, only that the scroll can't cause me any harm if I interact with it. Hence, it can be use as an improvise weapon but won't cause any damage.

[Doug Lampert]

Unless the DM decides to be a jerk and argument that since SLA doesn't have XP costs, means they *can't* do things with XP costs. Make sense.That would make sense, but that's not what the rules say.

SLA duplicates the spell, except that the creature need not pay any component costs. It's really fairly unambigous.

In any case, wish as a SLA is totally and completely unusable by the interpretation you present under all circumstances whatsoever. Yet many monsters have wish as a SLA. You can houserule that NOTHING has wish as a SLA if you like (it's reasonable), but that's not RAW.

[dragonfan6490]

Wow guys, lots of really good information. Thanks, my question is answered, but I'm really enjoying your discussion, so please continue.

[ericgrau]

The typical solution is to have the creature using the SLA pay any normal xp or material cost beyond what's normal, or otherwise not allow extra at all.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The typical solution is to have the creature using the SLA pay any normal xp or material cost beyond what's normal, or otherwise not allow extra at all.Again, the issue is things like Planar Binding+lots of painful traps you control, or the more basic Mindrape.
Step 1: get an Efreeti on the material
Step 2: make the Efreeti your eternal slave through magic, intimidation, bluff+magic, or torture
Step 3: abuse Wish
Step 4: Profit

The Wizard controls the environment the Efreet appears in, meaning the Wizard is prepared and the Efreeti is not. The Wizard is basically guaranteed to come out with the Efreeti in a dog collar. Extra XP cost is not an issue.

[Killer Angel]

Messing with solars is not required; you can use the sixth-level spell planar binding to call and bind an efreeti or a noble djinn. Either can be persuaded to grant you three wishes (use moment of prescience and eagle's splendor to ensure you win the opposed Charisma check to convince it to provide wishes).

I've alway found hard to believe in the chain gate-wish with the efreeti (unless you use mindrape).
By RAW, the Efreeti is lawful evil, and no doubt it’s unwilling to follow your orders, even if is forced to obedience by the Gate spell. Every DM had to roleplay the evilness of the Efreeti, and by “tradition” the evil genies tend to turn the wishes against the fool mortal, playing around the terms of the “contract”, in the same way that Devils act. The evilness of Devils and Efreeti tricking on contracts and fine prints are so famous, that every player knows to expect bad news dealing with them.
If you Gate an Efreeti to obtain the wish loop, you could have nasty surprises even wishing only for another candle.
If you don’t think VERY carefully to the exact terms of your request, the genie (just following his alignment, so without need to recurring to Rule 0) will tend to cheat you, while staying in the borders of the Gate spell.
Maybe he will “summon” your new candle of invocation, directly from the treasure vault of the main temple of Heironeous. Or Nerull.

[Killer Angel]

Right, so you gate in a solar and then have him use his XP-free wish and get a +200 sword.

I see a problem in this


It may not be RAW, but I think solars probably do in fact (in the context of the setting) have a cap on what they can wish for- and highly expensive items can break the cap.


Indeed there is, and it's RAW


No, there's no cap on the GP value of a magic item.

Sligthly incorrect.

The text of the wish spell says:

“You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.). For example, wishing for a Staff of the magi might get you transported to the presence of the staff ‘s current owner.”

The example is very specific, and contradicts the part relative to the creation of a magical item with no cost limits.
You can argue that the staff is a minor artifact, but at this point, epic items such the mentioned sword +200, fall in the category of "greater effects".

The Staff is only an example, but shows that Wish has limits on creating magical objects. The text is unclear on such limits, but they by RAW exist... what effectively these are, it's DM call.

[Lamech]

I won't comment the anti-matter scroll.
It's a pure troll from you as it contradicts the whole part about "having any interaction with the scroll won't cause me any harm" from the wish and is therefor unlikely. It will not cause you harm by interacting with it. Being to close does not count as interacting. You will never get a chance to interact with it.

won't cause = will not cause and the scroll will do you no such thing. In fact the only thing the scroll will do is be destroyed and release a large number of gamma rays in every direction. Those gamma rays will of course kill you.

And the wish didn't say anything about me not being able to interact with the scroll, only that the scroll can't cause me any harm if I interact with it. Hence, it can be use as an improvise weapon but won't cause any damage.Ohhh... it can be used against you but won't cause damage. How does that work again? 'Cause I think the standard wish result for immunity to weapons is... temporal stasis. I can't believe I missed that. And one that can't be removed either.
Nor can you say "I didn't wish for this." Things frequently happen that the person did not wish for explicitly when they make a wish. Childern die for money, air is moved out of the way, ect. As long as the result grants the wish, its fair game. (So if you wish for 50$ putting 50$ on your table, but also nuking Tokyo wouldn't work. But if you had a bet that a nuclear war would break out, and you won 50$ or more then yeah Tokyo could get nuked.)


At worst, I can shove a scroll of Detect Magic in the face of the Effrit and ask the same wish as before, just with the precision that the scroll must be made of the same material as this one.
The material is of course, far to cheap to make a more powerful scroll. A more powerful one is by defenition made of a differant material. The magic that has become part of the material also changes. They can not be made of the same material. You just made a contradiction. You get a sword through your brain. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_falso_quodlibet) Also the far plane invades. Don't you hate it when wishes interpert stuff in the worst way possible?


Step 1: get an Efreeti on the material
Step 2: make the Efreeti your eternal slave through magic, intimidation, bluff+magic, or torture
Step 3: abuse Wish
Step 4: ProfitFirst off as you can see above Efreeti wishes may or may not be reliable. Second, Efreeti have slaves and contact outer plane talks to people who can see into the future. You do the math for wishes if they are at all reliable; the Efreeti kills you first.

[MickJay]

My favourite: the summoned creature already expended its SLAs for the day. It's not like they don't have their own lives. :smalltongue:

[Jayabalard]

I don't see why nonviolently pacifying a good deity's servants would be contrary to its alignment. Sleep effects aren't evil, last time I checked anyway.Putting people to sleep so that they can be enslaved in order to stop them from righting a serious wrong seems to be pretty clearly against a Solar's alignment.


But again, even if you rule out Miracle, there's still Wish.I'm pretty sure the steps listed involved already using that wish.

[Khanderas]

Just wondering..
If wishing for a +200 sword from a solar was possible. Why isnt every solar equipped with one ?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Just wondering..
If wishing for a +200 sword from a solar was possible. Why isnt every solar equipped with one ?That's one of the many issues with Wish as an SLA. Because honestly, they should be. And +200 armor of everything.

[HamHam]

People always assume that these creatures exist in a vacuum, where summoning one and enslaving it just won't be noticed. Here's how it really works:

Step 1: Summon Solar
Step 2: Mindrape Solar
Step 3: Several dozen angry Solars appear to teach you a lesson
Step 4: Cast Celerity to cast Time Stop then cast Dimensional Anchor, Maw of Chaos, Forcecage.
Step 5: Mindrape any surviving Solars.

Fixed. :smalltongue:

Though if you really want to play the part, you should Gate in some Pit Fiends first and convince them to help you mindrape a Solar.

[Johel]

First off as you can see above Efreeti wishes may or may not be reliable. Second, Efreeti have slaves and contact outer plane talks to people who can see into the future. You do the math for wishes if they are at all reliable; the Efreeti kills you first.

...Ok, I wanted to keep things simple but since you are clearly set on pushing deep, let's concider the following binding plan :

About Effrit's cunning and power :
Now, yes, an Effrit can corrupt your wishes, asks devils to look in the future, ect... but since he's called using PLANAR BINDING, he won't be free to go unless he can break free. For this, let's consider :
He got no SR, unlike Solar.
He got a +9 Will Save.
He got a +2 Charisma modifier.
He got Plane Shift at will.

A wizard, level 11, with Intelligence 20, can cast the following spells :

Fox's Cunning (+4 Int, +2 to Spell DC for Wizards)
Fox’s Cunning, Mass (+4 Int, +2 to Spell DC for Wizards)
Eagle's Splendor (+4 Cha, +2 for Charisma Checks)
Mind Fog (30 minutes duration, -10 to Will saves) (DC 22)
Feeble Mind (Int and Cha drop to 1) (DC 22)
Charm Monster (Friendly creature for 11 days) (DC 21)


For the Binding itself :
No diagram
Magic Circle Against Evil (11 days duration) (DC 20)
Planar Binding (DC 23)

Now, our Effrit :

He has no SR. one less way to escape.
He has a +9 Will Save. This means only 40% chances to resist Mind Fog. If he fails, his Will Save drop to -1, meaning only natural 20 can save him from Dimensional Anchor (DC 21) and Feeblemind (DC 22). He now can't get away through Plane Shift and is barely aware of his surrounding.
He got a +2 Charisma modifier. See Feeblemind. He got -5 Charisma modifier.
He got Plane Shift at will. The Dimensional Anchor prevents him from using that ability for the next 11 minutes.


We don't want the Effrit to be mad at us. No, we certainly don't. So we cast "Charm Monster" on him. Why would he corrupt the wishes of his BFF ? He must roll 26 on 1d20 to resist the spell if he doesn't feel threatened. If he feels threatened, he must roll a 21 on 1d20. That's a natural 20 in both cases. Only 5% chances to resist.

We don't want a dumb Effrit to cast his wish SLA, don't we ? That would be bad. He doesn't have to be very smart (so that he won't twist our words) but he must at least understand what we want. So, we cast "Fox Cunning, Mass". It has a range so we don't step in the circle.

An charmed Effrit with an Intelligence of 5 and a Charisma of 1 is smart enough to speak and understand us but won't even resist any of our requests, provided they aren't impossible or unreasonable. Let's ask him to stay a few days here and help us for a project that can help him become smarter than he was and even become a lot stronger. We need 20 wishes and in exchange, we will find a way to make him a lot smarter and restore his self-esteem (which should be pretty low, with a charisma of 1).

Rule-wise, he gives us 20 wishes, we dispel Feeblemind, though we won't word it like that, since we don't want him to just go "What ? I've been cursed ?". He got a malus to wisdom check but his wisdom is still the same so he might put 2 and 3 together and we don't want that.

So, now, we just use our wishes to get EXACTLY what we want, no intended twist from the genius. We are still cautious, mind you.

Even more secure alternative :
Same process but with a diagram for the Magic Circle. Dimensional Anchor is cast right after Magic Circle.
For this alternative to work, we'll first experiment with a weaker outsider to see if :

stepping above the diagram without touching it counts as disturbing it.
casting ranged spell above the diagram without touching it counts as disturbing it.
picking items inside the magic circle without touching the diagram counts as disturbing it.


If it doesn't, then we can add a diagram to the process. That way, our Effrit is a true willing slave, incapable to leave even if he wanted to.

[Optimystik]

I'm pretty sure the steps listed involved already using that wish.

No, they don't. Summon a Solar needs Gate, Mindrape needs... Mindrape. Wish was not yet used.

As for Miracle, you're assuming the deity knows your intentions. They don't pay that close attention all the time. (See also: Eberron.)


...Ok, I wanted to keep things simple but since you are clearly set on pushing deep, let's concider the following binding plan :

I'll add to your tactic, with a tidbit from the Malconvoker handbook.

Call your Efreet, cast Lesser Geas on him. Command him to take a drink from a glass of water that you leave outside the binding circle. Lock the room and leave for a few days.

By the time you come back, he'll be down to 1 in every ability score, with massive penalties to his saves, ability checks and skill checks. Let's see him twist wishes now.

[Johel]

I'll add to your tactic, with a tidbit from the Malconvoker handbook.

Call your Efreet, cast Lesser Geas on him. Command him to take a drink from a glass of water that you leave outside the binding circle. Lock the room and leave for a few days.

By the time you come back, he'll be down to 1 in every ability score, with massive penalties to his saves, ability checks and skill checks. Let's see him twist wishes now.

This works only if the diagram can be add but yes, that's even better.
Thank you. :smallsmile:

EDIT : or maybe not : Lesser Geas is limited to 7HD. :smallfrown:
Does the Malconvoker increase that limit ?

[Myrmex]

I really feel like enslaving the generals of celestial armies pre-epic is a really dumb thing to do. It makes sense for a 30 int 8 wis wizard to do, though. "It sounded like a good idea at the time...."

[jiriku]

As many have pointed out, wish and miracle can quickly become contentious if you push the upper boundaries of their power. These spells require DM adjudication.

Really, there's no need to quibble over details. Just talk OOC with the DM, propose your intended use for the magic, and see if the DM is OK with it. If the DM says "yeah that would be badass" then you're golden - he likes what you're going to do, so you can be confident that the effrit/solar/whatever is going to cooperate. If the DM responds with some variation of "that makes me uncomfortable", then no matter how carefully you word your wish, the DM is going to retaliate, either by houseruling to prevent your tactic or by creating negative in-game consequences for your character.

[Mystic Muse]

Let's see, that's Rules As Written, Regulus Arcturus Black, and Rules As Any Sane Dungeon Master Would Allow, right?

fixed that for you.:smallwink: *runs*

[Zeful]

No, they don't. Summon a Solar needs Gate, Mindrape needs... Mindrape. Wish was not yet used.

As for Miracle, you're assuming the deity knows your intentions. They don't pay that close attention all the time. (See also: Eberron.)
In Eberron they don't, but Eberron is one setting. One Setting does not a trend make. And yes the god you are requesting the miracle from knows you intentions, he knew weeks ago (specifically one week for every divine rank he possesses, meaning he could have seen it coming months ago).
Further the Gaterape really doesn't work. Sure you can gate a random Solar, Mindrape it, get the wish, but you have to send it back via gate otherwise you run into the extended service limitation (and due to the specific trumping general rule, the Solar has to ask for goods or services of equal value, as stated by gate) which means you have to send him back and have him planeshift down (which takes a round) during which he could bump into another Solar who notices the odd behaviour (and planeshifting down to the mortal realm after coming back from a Gate summoning is suspicious) and simply Wishes him back to his normal self (which given the fact that there are an infinite number of Solars, and given their status, loners are the exception, not the norm, so to find Solars without friends you have to summon a lot of Solars and hope, or locate a specific Solar and call him, which falls under different circumstances). So now you've wasted two high level spell slots and four rounds for one wish.

[Myrmex]

In Eberron they don't, but Eberron is one setting. One Setting does not a trend make. And yes the god you are requesting the miracle from knows you intentions, he knew weeks ago (specifically one week for every divine rank he possesses, meaning he could have seen it coming months ago).

Don't forget that the Gods are also aware of everything taking place around their worshipers and places of worship.

[Johel]

Further the Gaterape really doesn't work. Sure you can gate a random Solar, Mindrape it, get the wish, but you have to send it back via gate otherwise you run into the extended service limitation (and due to the specific trumping general rule, the Solar has to ask for goods or services of equal value, as stated by gate) which means you have to send him back and have him planeshift down (which takes a round) during which he could bump into another Solar who notices the odd behaviour (and planeshifting down to the mortal realm after coming back from a Gate summoning is suspicious) and simply Wishes him back to his normal self (which given the fact that there are an infinite number of Solars, and given their status, loners are the exception, not the norm, so to find Solars without friends you have to summon a lot of Solars and hope, or locate a specific Solar and call him, which falls under different circumstances). So now you've wasted two high level spell slots and four rounds for one wish.

Just to quote the description of "Gate" in the SRD :



An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time
...
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

A nonhazardous task requires only half the indicated payment, while an especially hazardous task might require a greater gift. Few if any creatures will accept a task that seems suicidal (remember, a called creature actually dies when it is killed, unlike a summoned creature). However, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature’s ethos, it may halve or even waive the payment.

Now, the way I read it, it means a creature called by the spell "Gate" can return to its home plane but is in no way forced to do so. It will probably do so, since you basically disturbed whatever it was doing when called. But it's not an obligation.

Also, it is in a creature's power to simply act without asking for payment. Since you've altered its mind, nothing prevent you from making it so that the creature's ethos is similar to yours.

[Lysander]

Here's where it falls apart no matter what loophole you use.

Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that Solars can create any item they want without limit or xp cost. So yes, they can make a +200 sword for you. However this also means they can make themselves whatever they want. So assume that every Solar has a Ring of Mindrape Immunity, a Belt of Being Able To Smite Whoever Summons You, and a Sword of Being Able To Smite That Person A Second Time, and a Helm of Smiting That Person Yet Again.

[OMG PONIES]

Now, sure, it can pervert your intent. But if you wish :
"-I want you to make a unused scroll of Simulacrum appear on this table and only a unused scroll of Simulacrum, which will respect the following conditions : The scroll will have enough power to create a copy of a creature at least as powerful yourself. Touching the scroll, looking at the scroll, reading the scroll, casting a spell from the scroll or having any interaction with the scroll won't cause me any harm. It will not be cursed or have other magical powers or spells beside those necessary to cast Simulacrum."
I think it's pretty safe, from that point.

I've always wondered--is the DM allowed to add arbitrary conditions not covered by your request for extra lulz? Using the example above, your scroll would appear normally on the table, but the table itself is surrounded by a billion balors? I mean, you said that ONLY the scroll would appear on the table, but didn't mention anything appearing AROUND the table...

[Optimystik]

In Eberron they don't, but Eberron is one setting. One Setting does not a trend make.

I was specifically talking about Eberron (and settings like it, where the gods grant prayers mechanically and don't intervene.) See above, the "grenade vending machine" tangent.

Obviously in a setting where the gods are likely to scrutinize every Miracle, using it to knock out their servants is probably a bad idea.

[mostlyharmful]

Sligthly incorrect.

The text of the wish spell says:

“You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.). For example, wishing for a Staff of the magi might get you transported to the presence of the staff ‘s current owner.”

The example is very specific, and contradicts the part relative to the creation of a magical item with no cost limits.
You can argue that the staff is a minor artifact, but at this point, epic items such the mentioned sword +200, fall in the category of "greater effects".

The Staff is only an example, but shows that Wish has limits on creating magical objects. The text is unclear on such limits, but they by RAW exist... what effectively these are, it's DM call.

The text is extemely specific on what constitutes a safe and an unsafe use of Wish. making a magical item is a safe usage that increases the xp cost of wish, it is absolutly, explicitly safe. If the DM wants to make it unsafe then fine we're into houserules and your milage may vary but a Wish SLA can make a +200 Sword everytime with no cost to the user or risk to the RAW.

The Non-magical creation has a gp limitation, the magical creation has an increased xp cost which is ignored as an SLA. You are not wishing 'for' a +200 sword, you are wishing to create a +200 sword.

[Lamech]

...Ok, I wanted to keep things simple but since you are clearly set on pushing deep, let's concider the following binding plan :

About Effrit's cunning and power :
Now, yes, an Effrit can corrupt your wishes, asks devils to look in the future, ect... but since he's called using PLANAR BINDING, he won't be free to go unless he can break free. For this, let's consider :
He got no SR, unlike Solar.
He got a +9 Will Save.
He got a +2 Charisma modifier.
He got Plane Shift at will.

A wizard, level 11, with Intelligence 20, can cast the following spells :

Fox's Cunning (+4 Int, +2 to Spell DC for Wizards)
Fox’s Cunning, Mass (+4 Int, +2 to Spell DC for Wizards)
Eagle's Splendor (+4 Cha, +2 for Charisma Checks)
Mind Fog (30 minutes duration, -10 to Will saves) (DC 22)
Feeble Mind (Int and Cha drop to 1) (DC 22)
Charm Monster (Friendly creature for 11 days) (DC 21)


For the Binding itself :
No diagram
Magic Circle Against Evil (11 days duration) (DC 20)
Planar Binding (DC 23)

Now, our Effrit :

He has no SR. one less way to escape.
He has a +9 Will Save. This means only 40% chances to resist Mind Fog. If he fails, his Will Save drop to -1, meaning only natural 20 can save him from Dimensional Anchor (DC 21) and Feeblemind (DC 22). He now can't get away through Plane Shift and is barely aware of his surrounding.
He got a +2 Charisma modifier. See Feeblemind. He got -5 Charisma modifier.
He got Plane Shift at will. The Dimensional Anchor prevents him from using that ability for the next 11 minutes.


We don't want the Effrit to be mad at us. No, we certainly don't. So we cast "Charm Monster" on him. Why would he corrupt the wishes of his BFF ? He must roll 26 on 1d20 to resist the spell if he doesn't feel threatened. If he feels threatened, he must roll a 21 on 1d20. That's a natural 20 in both cases. Only 5% chances to resist.

We don't want a dumb Effrit to cast his wish SLA, don't we ? That would be bad. He doesn't have to be very smart (so that he won't twist our words) but he must at least understand what we want. So, we cast "Fox Cunning, Mass". It has a range so we don't step in the circle.

An charmed Effrit with an Intelligence of 5 and a Charisma of 1 is smart enough to speak and understand us but won't even resist any of our requests, provided they aren't impossible or unreasonable. Let's ask him to stay a few days here and help us for a project that can help him become smarter than he was and even become a lot stronger. We need 20 wishes and in exchange, we will find a way to make him a lot smarter and restore his self-esteem (which should be pretty low, with a charisma of 1).

Rule-wise, he gives us 20 wishes, we dispel Feeblemind, though we won't word it like that, since we don't want him to just go "What ? I've been cursed ?". He got a malus to wisdom check but his wisdom is still the same so he might put 2 and 3 together and we don't want that.

So, now, we just use our wishes to get EXACTLY what we want, no intended twist from the genius. We are still cautious, mind you.

Even more secure alternative :
Same process but with a diagram for the Magic Circle. Dimensional Anchor is cast right after Magic Circle.
For this alternative to work, we'll first experiment with a weaker outsider to see if :

stepping above the diagram without touching it counts as disturbing it.
casting ranged spell above the diagram without touching it counts as disturbing it.
picking items inside the magic circle without touching the diagram counts as disturbing it.


If it doesn't, then we can add a diagram to the process. That way, our Effrit is a true willing slave, incapable to leave even if he wanted to.Ahh... I think you missed the point about the Efrrit killing you first, or misunderstood what I meant. The Effrit can contact people who can see into the future, also wish has this stuipidly nasty "transport travellers" ablity. It can teleport anyone to anywhere and nothing sort of a universal effect can block it. No anti-magic field, no planar binding crap, nothing. Nor does it use the astral plane or plane of shadow or the like. Nor does it give a minimum info need about where you want to send the victim or the victim himself; as long as you can identify the people and exit point its good. So, "the nearest sphere of annilation to me or the nearest sphere of annilation to sigil if none exist on this plane..." and "the next person who will have a planar bind spell effect if I do not interfere". And all of a sudden you have 3 wishes a day to shrug off. More if the Efrrit has deals with other genies. For twenty weeks.

I also note that the wish of the Efrrit may be more or less realible than the wish spell itself. The above may not be possible if the wish is likely to pervert itself, but then the wishes you get are also likely to pervert themselves; and it is fairly easy to find one oversight or contradiction if you deliberately misinterpret stuff. It may also be more reliable, and the Efrrit's slaves can just say "If master would ever be planar bound instead the person who tried to planar bind master instead has his or hers or its soul obliterated."

Once the Efrrit is planar bound its pretty much screwed unless it has been asked to grants some wishes like "transport the master home and up to eight people of the masters choice into the sun" (which it should) and a gets the first action before being charmed, mindraped, whatever... in which case the crazy prepared wizard needs to hand in his robes. The problem is not dealing with the Efrrit after being planar bound, but before hand.

[lsfreak]

I've always wondered--is the DM allowed to add arbitrary conditions not covered by your request for extra lulz? Using the example above, your scroll would appear normally on the table, but the table itself is surrounded by a billion balors? I mean, you said that ONLY the scroll would appear on the table, but didn't mention anything appearing AROUND the table...

When a player wishes for something, no. There are very, very clear rules on what is allowed and what can come with extra strings. Too many DM's cross over this just to **** with their players when it comes to wishes.

When a creature is under the control of the player and the player wishes for something, same thing. If they ask for something within the normal limits of wish, no messing with it just to go on a power trip.

[Lamech]

I've always wondered--is the DM allowed to add arbitrary conditions not covered by your request for extra lulz? Using the example above, your scroll would appear normally on the table, but the table itself is surrounded by a billion balors? I mean, you said that ONLY the scroll would appear on the table, but didn't mention anything appearing AROUND the table...

I missed this... this can only happen with the Efrrit's SLA. Thats not actually the wish spell. It has no such thing as a safe list, and is sadly totally up to the DM.

[Killer Angel]

The text is extemely specific on what constitutes a safe and an unsafe use of Wish. making a magical item is a safe usage that increases the xp cost of wish, it is absolutly, explicitly safe. If the DM wants to make it unsafe then fine we're into houserules and your milage may vary but a Wish SLA can make a +200 Sword everytime with no cost to the user or risk to the RAW.

The Non-magical creation has a gp limitation, the magical creation has an increased xp cost which is ignored as an SLA. You are not wishing 'for' a +200 sword, you are wishing to create a +200 sword.

Then there's no problem at all. Every Solar and every Efreeti have tons of magical item +200 and most of all a ring of immunity to gate and mindrape, and they've done it a loooong time ago. Because you know, for them it's free.

[SparkMandriller]

I think having a huge amount of +infinite weapons/armour/equipment floating around actually is kind of a problem. That seems like the sort of thing that's just asking to be a problem. There will be problems because of this.

[Killer Angel]

I think having a huge amount of +infinite weapons/armour/equipment floating around actually is kind of a problem. That seems like the sort of thing that's just asking to be a problem. There will be problems because of this.

Totally true, but 'til there are players that insist that by raw a solar with a wish can give to you all the magic you dream of, because Wish as SLA has no limitation on magical objects, there will be DMs which negate this, thanks to the fact that said solar used their wishes long ago to became immune to such dirty tricks.
Wise players don't use loopholes. Wise players find the loopholes and make jokes on them in the forums, but don't use them in play, never.
So, if the discussion is theoretical on sword +200, then theoretically Solars have it, 'cause it's perfectly logical to use free wishes, if you have them.

[SparkMandriller]

Even if the solars do have some items that block gate from working, it still shouldn't be that hard to get at least one wish outta them. High level clerics, they're their god's bros. Surely that god can spare a solar for a minute to help out his bro. Less than a minute, even.

[Eldariel]

Better question is, why don't the Solars use the Wish themselves and arm the entire celestial battalions with +Big Number equipment and crush the hells? Pit Fiends' Wish is once per year, after all, and Balors have none at all. Though of course, if there's an infinite number of Pit Fiends and Solars, that's sorta a moot point.

Also, why don't Gods send their greatest champions the best equipment ever given it's free for them to make? And throw a few miracles their way while at it.

[Killer Angel]

Better question is, why don't the Solars use the Wish themselves and arm the entire celestial battalions with +Big Number equipment and crush the hells? Pit Fiends' Wish is once per year, after all, and Balors have none at all. Though of course, if there's an infinite number of Pit Fiends and Solars, that's sorta a moot point.


Probably the Solars use the house rule that, since SLA doesn't have XP costs, it means they can't do things with XP costs.
Problem solved.
If, by RAW, they should have it but they don't, then is proven that it's RAI that rulez da univerz.

[MickJay]

Probably the Solars use the house rule that, since SLA doesn't have XP costs, it means they can't do things with XP costs.
Problem solved.
If, by RAW, they should have it but they don't, then is proven that it's RAI that rulez da univerz.

My thoughts exactly, if nothing in the sourcebooks supports the ability of Solars to create infinitely powerful items, then it's reasonable to assume they don't have such ability, and explaining limits of SLA Wish with "it doesn't cost XP, so it can't do things that cost XP" seems perfectly fine. Now if the players want to donate their XP to fuel Solar's SLA, that's a different story.

Also, how are you going to hold the Solar in place for the time during which Mindrape is being cast, without letting it escape, fight you, summon more of his friends or using Wish (if it still had it available when it was summoned) against you?